I find it best not to ask questions to folks who’ve been in the audio hobby for a long time. In fact, as soon as someone says, “I’ve been in this hobby for 30 years and you can believe me when I say...”, I’m out. Best to avoid all the misinformation, disinformation, misconceptions, and mistaken assumptions that accrue. Way too much stove piping.
Has anyone made the jump to $uper High end and were disappointed?
I'm talking $50,000 and higher amps, speakers, cablesetc. I know there is excellent sounding gear from $100 to infinity (much is system dependent, room, etc). However, just curious if someone made the leap and deep down realize the "expected" sound quality jump was not as much as the price jump. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to make that jump. However, looking at another forum's thread about price point of diminishing returns got me wondering if anyone had buyers remorse. It's not easy to just "flip" a super high priced component.
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I talked this year to over 20 people who also work in audio for a long time. And I asked them different questions of none they could answer. They all agreed that they work by trial and error and never have no idea why the stage and sound is what they hear. When I explained how I work they understand directly that it is a lot more precise and accurate. The people who auditioned my systems or some of my clienst understand exactly why we have no competition. We create both sound and vision on properties. This will win in each individual situation of any trail and error system. Because all these systems have no foundation on how they have been created. Tru-Fi can easily proof what is missing. Because this is how we work. I never met any person who said: I prefer my incomplete audiosystem. Because each single person on this planet will prefer any system what can reveal more details and emotion. That is why I will use conservatorium students to proof that Tru-Fi is a mirror of how voices and instruments sound and are being projected into space. We only work by facts! |
Tru-Fi is a different and more effective way to create an audiosystem. But when you focus on brands we use and think I did not find these products were that special, you are probable right. A Monitor Audio loudspeaker in any trial and error shop is not the same product as it is in a Tru-Fi system. Based on the fact that these dealers can only use a small part of all the properties these speakers own. I have different clients who said; in the past when I auditioned Monitor Audio I was not that impressed. Or when I would not have visited you I don’t think I would have bought a Monitor Audio set. When I test and do research I am only looking for properties. This is a level most people can never use and reach. I am aware of how difficult it is. It took my almost 20 years to be able to extract each single product. In the price range Monitor Audio operates there is no other brand what gives me those properties I need and want that easy. Because most brands are 2D on facts. Each single 2D brand or product will never make any person excited and emotional for a long period. People who visite me the first time are often impressed how much different any Monitor Audio loudspeaker sounds compared to any trial and error shop. At the first few seconds you are aware that you are listening to a different level in both sound and emotion. Tru-Fi can also create a superior level of other brands. You just need the right properties. We are Lumin dealer as well. Again we create a level with Lumin what is in it’s own league. Because we use the properties to the max. We modify the players internal. We use different tools to improve them. We modify poweramps and a lot more. My goal is always creating a superior level in both sound quality and emotion compared to any other product for the same money. A perfectionist only wants to win and outperform. I see both sound&vision as a game and I love it. I only want to outperfrom any other audio company in the world. This is how I create superior quality and the highest level in emotion. In my world there is no place for second best. That is only for born losers. For a normal person it is not possible to understand how much further I go into details. And how precise I work. It goes so far beyond your imagination. When I see pictures of highend systems I can see many mistakes already. Because they make mistakes in things I tested why they have a limiting influence. Thousands of tests means you want to understand as much as possible. And to improve both sound&vision over and over again. We are now talking with manufacturers to bring both sound&vision to a much higher level than where it stands now. The inferior level of trial and error will only decrease the audio market. There is not even a discussion about this possible. Trail and error is pure blindness and having no idea to do it differently. |
Correcto Mundo! Nobody ever said trial and error was a good idea. I have said it wasn’t a good idea like forever for speaker placement. You have to have a method. Trial and error is like trying to solve N simultaneous equations in N + x unknowns. The best you can hope for is finding local maximums. And that’s if you’re lucky. |
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@gdhal "While I'll agree that @geoffkait post is more accurate and thought out than many of his other posts, to some extent it is not entirely correct because there is yet a third (that I can think of, perhaps there are more) high-ends for audio.Oh, I can buy that...there's usually a middle ground of some kind. Regards John |
The thing what I hope people will learn and understand is that trial en error does not garantee you anything. Regardless price, even highend products and brands do not garantee you anything either. Shows and many shops proof that they do not understand sound and music. So you need to start where it begins. And that is music. From this you need to learn to use audio from a different perspective. When people all keep on focusing on products and brands they will limit themselves until the end. You need a mindset to understand that there is a much better way of creating an audiosystem what will be more complete and more sounding as in real. The emotion of music needs to be revealed by your system at home. Systems created by trial and error proof on facts that they are incomplete. It is a 100% illusion to believe that an audio system created by trial and error is a personal thing. And that this will create the best results for you. In over 8 years we proved that each system what went from 2D to 3D make a huge difference in how often a person uses his system. Because we read a lot about how our emotion works. And especially regarding music. Another big step we made was focusing on diversity in sound. And this also makes a huge difference in how music is being experienced. At the end emotion is what music is. So this is what your systems need to be able to create and reveal. When you compare and test many products as we did, the facts proof that many products will never be able to create all the properties of sound. The main reason for this is that the people who create them have less insight and knowledge about music either. In can garantee you all overhere at Audiogon that at the end it has nothing to do with money. More money does not garantee you a better result at all. But....using the right properties will. Because you can create even systems for reasonable prices which many of you overhere can afford. When you create products on properties it is a lot more easy to create a much higher level for the same kind of money by trial and error. The other thing what is needed are DSP roomacoustsic systems for all people. They will make a big difference and will bring the quality in both sound and realism to a much higher level. The acoustics of rooms limit the endresults a lot. When I see and hear how limited the insight and knowledge is in this part it proofs that most people still think it is 1980. |
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Ricred1. My opinion is Jeff’s change has nothing to do with “sound quality” and is rather the same old, same old of everyone who enjoys writing, critiquing, expounding — ie attracting more audience <•> <•> — or advertisers € £ ¥. Again there’s little New in these rather pedestrian callings. But I’m here watching too - a little porny ?? Ahem. Sorry. Corny - that’s the word I’m looking for ;) |
@ivan_nosnibor While I'll agree that @geoffkait post is more accurate and thought out than many of his other posts, to some extent it is not entirely correct because there is yet a third (that I can think of, perhaps there are more) high-ends for audio. The third condition combines elements of both high-ends as indicated in his description. |
@geoffkait "There are two high ends for audio. One is in the solid grip of upgraditis, that one tends to be solidly Anti Tweak, believing that the secret to sound quality is the electronic circuit, expensive parts and “solid engineering” - in quotes. The other high end is more of a tweak-oriented group, focused on improving the sound through cleverness and thoughtfulness. THIS high end operates by assessing the weaknesses in the audio system and coming up with solutions. You know, the group that doesn’t read reviews any more. The ones who don’t buy Stereophile or The Absolute Sound anymore." Exactamente |
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The entire premise of the OP is sort of funny…and I doubt the act of "jumping to Super High End" is what anybody actually does, except for a tiny minority of wealthy sales pressure victims. Tiny. Reading magazine reviews without a basis in the reality of "It's a Magazine Review" seems rare except for the foolish, and in spite of Kaitie's comment I think the magazines are still interesting and alert people to what's out there. There are plenty of people who take forum posts too seriously and buy into nonsense (bags of pebbles, magic fuses)…but that's generally harmless also. |
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It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that the more one spends on audio the better the sound quality. The audio industry is like the car industry. The price of cars keeps going up. It’s an economic reality - businesses must continually EXPAND in customers and income. The auto industry has figured out that people will spend increasing large amounts of money on what is essentially the same product. The trick is to promote each new car model as new and improved. Whether it’s true or not. The audio industry has figured out the same thing. There are two high ends for audio. One is in the solid grip of upgraditis, that one tends to be solidly Anti Tweak, believing that the secret to sound quality is the electronic circuit, expensive parts and “solid engineering” - in quotes. The other high end is more of a tweak-oriented group, focused on improving the sound through cleverness and thoughtfulness. THIS high end operates by assessing the weaknesses in the audio system and coming up with solutions. You know, the group that doesn’t read reviews any more. The ones who don’t buy Stereophile or The Absolute Sound anymore. |
Yeah man: "It doesn’t matter which combination you will make, the sound and stage will be incomplete. All people will feel and experience a much lower level in emotion and intensity during listening to music." Ya know…I miss you Bo…nobody, and I mean nobody in this forum says things like that. At length. In long posts. Nobody. It’s like the old saying I just made up, "You can’t have nobody without Bo." |
The great thing about living in 2017 is that there are so much more options to control sound and create a level in realims what was not even possible in the past. But regardless money facts still proof that most products and also brands do miss essential parts which are needed to create an audiosystem what is able to reveal all the information of a recording Money does not garantee you anything in audio. And also for ’Highend’ you do not get a stunning level based on the price it cost. I talked this year to different people who work in audio for a long time and also visited The CES this year. Highend is changing and it is not that possitive many said. They all see the decreasing market. It proofs that they way both sound&vision are done all over the world needs to change. The average age on audioshows also proof that the ’new’ generation is a lot less interested in both sound&vision. I visited Munic ’Highend’ 2 times and I will visited it next year again. I was surprised about the limited knowledge and insight of the people who gave the demoes. Many are just business people. Over 90% of all the demoes where given in a 2D stage. People can hear in a 3D spectrum. So when you want to play audio at a high level it needs to be able to create a stunning 3D holographic stage. In all other situations you are not even allowed to use the word ’highend’ But.....there is a much bigger problem in audio than the lack of a 3D stage. Many digital sources, dacs and products are not able to create a good level in diversity in sound. Diversity in sound is the essential part of music what influences our emotion during listening to our music. Because based on facts we humans do not feel a lot of emotion when we hear to music and sound what lacks diversity in sound. This is what is needed to get excited, intense and emotional. Because this is how our emotion works. At shows people often have no idea what the reason is why most demoes are not able to make them excited. The most common reaction during shows is the fact that people miss the real emotion of most systems at an audioshow. When you do not understand both sound and music, you never will understand audio. This is the key part where it all goes wrong. To control and guide your system you need to understand why the stage and sound is what you hear. For this you need to know and understand all the different properties of sound, the acoustics and the other parts who negative influences the sound and stage. There is no other way to understand it and create the sound and stage you would like to get. Because the way audio is done all over the world is by trial and error. This is like Russian Roulette. When you change a loudspeaker, cable, amp, source etc by another one. You need to understand first which properties you took out by changing it to another product. And which properties you brought in when you changed it. Because the sound and stage of your system at home is being created by all the properties of all the parts togheter, the acoustics and the other parts who negative influences the sound and stage. This proofs how complex sound is. And for a good result you need a system what owns all the different properties sound is being formed at. When an audio system can reveal more different properties it will be able to create a higher level in emotion for each single person. Because all the different properties of sound can influence our emotion. This is why ’highend’ does not garantee you anthing. Because people focus on brands and products. In most situations this will not create a sound and stage what will be so exciting that you want to listen to it day by day. You need the right properties to come as close as possible to how music sound in real and how it is being projected in space. And again most products and brands proof on facts that they miss essential parts of sound. It doesn’t matter which combination you will make, the sound and stage will be incomplete. All people will feel and experience a much lower level in emotion and intensity during listening to music. Because you need an audiosystem what can reveal all the information of the recording. Because all the emotion of music is on the recording. This means you need an audiosystem what can reveal all the layers and information of the recording. We see and hear that when music is being played with all the layers and properties people become excited and many even emotional. This is what you need to make the ’new’ generation also interested in audio. We humans are always looking for emotion. No incomplete audio system will ever be used and liked by any person for a long period. |
Rich people are music lovers, enjoy hobbies, etc just like anyone else. Your available funds will dictate how far one goes into their interests and what youbdo. The multi million dollar rich person may tinker with $700,000 stereos, exotic cars, art. Thats the world they live. Just like many of us dabble mid fi systems and may have saved a few yesrs to purchase a nice convertible. Thats the world I live The minimum wage audiophile may be only able to save for a nice set of headphones and player. |
Someone tell me why I am supposed to be super impressed with very expensive gear. To me it doesn't sound as good as some simpler less expensive equipment. Wolf......I am so disappointed to hear, I won't be able to take it with me. My kids wouldn't know what to do with it. Jim Temporary dealer of the month. Look to next month for a better dealer. |
The Ultra High-End is for people that love music and have the money to purchase what ever they want. It cost a lot of money to hear incremental improvements. In general I think being an "audiophile" at any level is a pretty lonely hobby and very, very few purchase with the intent to brag about their systems. |
Somehow I doubt that the supposed "rich people," based on those I've known anyway, have the time to really listen to music because for them it's an insane hustle all the time, often tempered by wondering if you're getting ripped off by somebody. The act of tossing money at the latest extreme bit of gear they think they need is actually sort of sad since, of course, you can't take it with you. |
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I think there is a great potential to be disappointed with a really high end system. I think speakers can be the biggest culprit. To me large speakers often sound like PA systems. I guess you can figure it out for yourself by looking at the ads for really expensive speakers on Audiogon. If they weren't disappointed they wouldn't sell the damn things. Best Jim Dealer of the decade. |
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Tomcy6 I will use some items I have actually personally purchased. First off would be a pair of altec 604E speakers for 1200 then would be a pair of atmosphere M 60 mono blocks for 1800 Then a pair of Phillips 12 inch sub drivers for 300Built some boxes for 100Sumo Polaris amp to power those 200 dahlquist dq lp1 crossover 150(needed a pot replaced) Bottlehead beepre preamp for 1500 ayre qb9 dac for 800(used original version pcm only) Keen eye will notice I've gone over 5K but I am talking Canadian pesos so I should still be under 5K USD. I went digital because if I went with my analog rig I would be way over. The 604s are key as they are perfect for the otl's at 16 ohms. The otl's are a step up over everything I've ever heard and I've heard a lot! |
And they are right, most digiheads will think it sounds good on their devices. I did hear an opinion that $1k Purist Audio USB cable is really something. IIRC, USB cables need to have a characteristic impedance of 110 ohms to prevent reflections in the cable that can cause errors. Jim Aud (of Purist Audio) was telling me recently at RMAF that he had to use some really pricey test equipment to make sure his cables met that spec. This was in the context of hearing about a cable that was preventing the DAC from getting a lock (which was happening because it was not the right characteristic impedance). Most recording studios are wired to keep out noise more so than audiophile quality. Thus, most studios are wired with Beldon/ Canare level wiring. Plus, using general data cables and hard drives ( although Glymph caters to the audio/ video industry, i would not consider them audiophile since same drives are used as in any orher system)The thing you want to keep in mind here is that in the studio, most of the equipment operates balanced and supports the balanced standard. The raison d'etre of balanced line is to eliminate cable artifacts and allow long lengths as a result. So they are very much audiophile, in fact sort of uber-audiphile, since most high buck single-ended cables have far more artifact. In a nutshell there really isn't much of a standard for single-ended cables, and the direct result of that is the way they are built can affect their sound. Over the years audiophiles have grown used to that fact and the need to audition the cables in their system. With it has come the hubris that the engineers in studios are clueless about cables. While that is sometimes true, its a bit of apples and oranges. |
"The Jeff is Jeffrey Fritz Editor-in-Chief of SoundStage. After several years he’s looking to downgrade from a seriously expensive system. . . . The fact that he’s concluded that the ultra expensive system isn’t worth it, sure makes me think!" This is a false characterization. http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/739-jeffs-getting-a-new-stereo-s... Jeff did not conclude this at all. He made clear that he was downsizing his system for family obligation reasons, and that that gave him an excuse to focus on a higher value for money point on the cost curve -- to see what fraction of the sound quality of his big system he could achieve for a small fraction of the price of that big system. PS: I give Jeff a lot of credit for rejecting the long term equipment "loan" regime in which many reviewers indulge. |
Wow I never thought I would be agreeing with Goeff Kait but I am!And excellent post wolf-Garcia, Bang on. I kind of giggled when I read the posts of people who have bought an expensive so-and-so and, oh my gosh it revealed the flaws in the other part of the chain! That could happen with any priced components it's called synergy and it means it wasn't there with the new component. Doesn't mean you have to buy a more expensive other piece to compensate. Like wolf I go to shows and listen to multi hundred thousand dollar rooms and my stuff at home sounds way better. I might have 20k in. And I honestly think that I could take 5K and put together a system that sounds within a hair of my current one. Good sound does not have to cost a lot of money! And again, I have heard loads of very expensive set ups to bass this opinion on. |
@inna The above is only my own personal take. Why not a $5k USB cable? Hey, if anyone is inclined, I'd say go for it...but for me, considering where I happen to be with it all at the moment, it's just a question of having different priorities, I guess....but, I know you're right, the industry isn't listening to us audiophiles. |
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This digital industry doesn't care about audiophiles, generally speaking, so they will use $1 one hundred feet digital cables, no problem. And they are right, most digiheads will think it sounds good on their devices. I did hear an opinion that $1k Purist Audio USB cable is really something. I also heard that top of the line Audioquest is excellent. If that $5k cable is even better than why not $5k ? Better than the same amount for a couple of rare records with nothing to talk about music. |
@aberyclark Good point. I have a MoFi CD edition of Billy Joel's Turnstiles (1976) and a BluSpec CD edition of the same exact album. The BluSpec one happens to sound great across the board, no issues at all. The MoFi by comparison happens to sounds terrible, rather muffled and veiled both in tone and dynamic shadings. Possibly ok sounding in its own right, but in comparison with the BluSpec on my system it is noticeably lacking in a couple ways. Despite the fact that the BluSpec makes no claim about this disc being sourced from the master recording and the MoFi version does. So, does that mean that MoFi on this release just had unfortunate access to crappy mastering equipment? I'm inclined to think not (I could be wrong), and I know that a lot of their other releases in their catalog can sound quite good. But, why would a mastering not made from the master tape sound plainly better than from one that is? (And here I'm throwing out the possibility, in this case anyway, that the original master tape has deteriorated due to age, as a factor - both sound fine in that regard). Does this rilly mean that lots of bad mastering equipment is still out there in use (all those terrible sounding remasters that we come across all the time), or is it more of a case of bad mastering techniques rather than equipment? I'd say that you're right and that maybe we don't need $5k USB cables, but that maybe the music industry should stop long enough to take a harder look at what kind of cables they are connecting their mastering equipment with. Something at that end seems to be off somewhere. Just a thought. Cheers, John |
I’ve heard numerous times “your system is only as good as the weakest link” in many of the high $ systems, the material ( music) one listens to is actually the weakest length. Over at Computer Audiophile, people debate the merits of $5000 usb cables. In reality, general industrial grade data cables were used to transfer the master recording data to the cd pressing equipment. The same cables used on all these hi rez music streaming systems using general industrial server hard drives. Most recording studios are wired to keep out noise more so than audiophile quality. Thus, most studios are wired with Beldon/ Canare level wiring. Plus, using general data cables and hard drives ( although Glymph caters to the audio/ video industry, i would not consider them audiophile since same drives are used as in any orher system) At he end of the day......better sound is better sound....just something I’ve thought about |
Very good cd players can be had used for not too much. As for computer listening, my current super high-end gear consists of $200 Grado headphones. Thinking about adding $300 Oppo dac/headphone amp plus $100 Audioquest cable. Later maybe a jump to Grado RS1 or some HiFi Man phones and better dac/amp. But I have no intention to spend much on this stuff. |
I think the only thing I would regret paying for, if I had unlimited money, and spent it on audio equipment, would be music servers. I cannot conceive of a way for a computer system with ethernet and USB to cost over $10,000. Probably not over $5000. That tech goes out of date so fast, and seems like it is really off-the-shelf. I don’t believe the people selling it have the know-how or the technology to justify the price. They don’t have the skill to produce systems that can cost that much. But I don’t have the money, so I just don’t know. Everything else, I would imagine is a joy to own. And I don’t imagine anyone that owns it would say otherwise. I wish I did. My current everything, with tubes and cables is over 10k so I'm a guppy in a big ocean. But I’m also an IT professional, so I know computers and data transfer. |