Happen to you? Gear chasing because the fundamentals were wrong.

@digsmithd 

The seller bought them for use in his NYC recording studio and stated they were not quite as neutral as he'd hoped. They had very few hours on them and his loss was very much my gain.

Nice speaker...look like they are a speaker you could live with a long time.

@whart 

I guess I believe in a little luck, too.

Yeah. My first lucky break was the suggestion by a forum member that I grab a pair of "like new" Silverline monitors listed on Audiogon. I had plenty of other suggestions at the time and I still don't know why I chose to follow the guy who recommended the SR17.5's but they've been the one constant in my system since I acquired them in 2006. 

"I would most likely have embarked upon a search for "better" speakers which would likely have been fruitless, given the fact that the weakness was actually due to the integrated."

Man this echos my atc 19 v2 and setup...almost gave up on them.I have always wanted to try a pair.Have the current going to them with the kwi-200/modwright.

Setup was everything...was rewarded very nicely (like to try a 390 someday?)

I suspect I only narrowly averted getting caught up in this trap! In the past year, I learned the vital importance of two fundamentals -- speaker/amp matching and speaker placement.

I messed around with speaker placement for months with little to show for my efforts before stumbling onto what appears to be an optimal placement. If I’d stuck with the rule of thumb that speakers should be located equidistant from one-another and the listening chair, I never would have found the right positioning and I might well have tried to improve the soundstage via a component upgrade. While that might’ve worked, it would have been an unnecessary expenditure.

I’d always assumed the sloppy bass I found so annoying with my previous integrated was due to the inherent limitations of my stand-mount speakers. It wasn’t until I replaced the integrated with a Hegel H390 that I realized my Silverlines were capable of much better bass and resolution than I’d ever imagined. Not only that but the Hegel seemed to "wake up" the Silverlines, overall. No doubt, the higher current was an important aspect, in this regard. If not for the Hegel, I would most likely have embarked upon a search for "better" speakers which would likely have been fruitless, given the fact that the weakness was actually due to the integrated.

In both of these cases, addressing the fundamentals yielded surprisingly significant rewards and very likely saved me many thousands of dollars.

Apropos hearing loss, mine is age-related, not due to damage. I don’t go much beyond 12khz, which is normal for a male approaching 70 years. This does not affect my hearing or judgement of the midrange, which is where most of the critical musical information resides. I’d say my judgement of what sounds "real" to me is as good as ever. Maybe I’m missing some high frequency harmonics on cymbals or whatever, but it doesn’t detract from my enjoyment. The system is tuned to my taste based on all the factors I mentioned, including tube choice. Switching out a rectifier tube can make a difference. I can still hear little differences in tone. The system is not "analytical" or "bright" sounding- to the contrary, it is a little on the warm side without sounding euphonic (to these ears).

PS: where I have difficulty is in public environments, like a noisy restaurant with high ambient noise- where I can't even hear a dinner companion to hold a normal discussion. This has little bearing on the hi-fi, where the ambient noise of the room is relatively low. 

For me it is and always seems to be amp-speaker synergy and noise in the phono playback. I am learning a lot on this forum and it has helped tremendously! It seems when you match equipment it is so much easier. I purchased a decent phono stage finally with its matching power supply and it transformed my turntable/ cartridge playback (no noise) simply amazing. I now keep my amp and preamp choices to the same brand and it is getting better for me. I never had a problem with wattage because I never could afford a powerful amplifier. Now I have seen how efficient well made and designed speakers can play with much less wattage. I will say for a big set of speakers that are not Klipsch more power is pretty amazing in sound. The bass comes out and is powerful and no sub needed. So tight and great sounding. 

I'm newer to this than most of you, but chasing wattage and not understand speaker sensitivity were the two biggest for me at first. Once I got that out of the way, the next revelation for me recently is the quality of DAC. A/B testing was a bit shocking. When I do upgrade, I could see myself stretching more for one than I would on an amp.

If I had to do it all over again past 45yrs in audio gear chasing, I would have started by stepping up a little more $ on higher quality and better matched sources and amplification [sooner]. Building my own speakers since the beginning, a few nicer source-players and amps along the way sure would have helped me to realize a few key things around sound and music much sooner. Once i did, my own speakers started to sing for the 1st time in a very nice way. Lesson learned late.

An old buddy pulled me in to listen to his new source and new tube amps once, it was game over. Learning from others who cycle gear and take detailed notes is helpful to get going in a better direction, sooner. The OP knows this too. :) 

Back in the seventies and eighties, I listened to my dealer and he never let me down. Now he’s moved to Florida and I am without a local dealer I trust, so now I do as much research as I can and have so far been happy with my purchases.

Good post...and should be read/considered by any guy buying audio gear/cables.

I guess for myself ...I found myself buying speaker cables to fix the up stream/power short comings.Ounce i got some of the mess "right power cables" figured out...even a "budget" pair of speaker cables sound descent...Fwiw.

@hilde45

“knowing the curve of one’s hearing can help guide anyone adjusting the curve of their room.”

This is so true. It’s likely that many here are ladies and gentlemen of a certain age.

A quick web search reports almost 1 in 3 adults experience hearing loss between the ages of 65 and 74. Age fifty is another common loss point. After age 75, about half of all adults have trouble hearing. Men are twice as likely as women to lose some hearing.

Good hearing aids are tuned to boost hearing in the bandwidth(s) lacking. Talk about a fundamental component should/could well be yourself.

@whart I'm still curious about horns/sets as a combo.

I have since discovered that small peaks (around 3 db) at certain frequencies, in the mid’s and low mid’s can add a richness to vocals and that certain dips in the mid’s can remove a hollowness from vocals that can show up from time to time.

The assumption of a flat response is a fundamental mistake I made, too. Your post reminded me that in addition to measuring a room and *not* worshipping a flat curve, it was also helpful to measure my hearing -- with an audiologist. I don't believe that measurement is the last word, but knowing the curve of one's hearing can help guide anyone adjusting the curve of their room. 

@hilde45 - I don't disagree with your observations- the amp-speaker synergy, the acoustics of the room and effective placement of the gear (I don't rely heavily on room treatment) and noise- both ambient and inter-component as well as the quality of power feeding the system.

I guess I played it safe- I was a long time Quad listener who focused mainly on midrange- I did add ribbons and a sub or two, but sometimes, that was like three good systems playing simultaneously. Cheap Hafler and later analog surround added a 3d quality to some LPs but not all for a brief period in the late '80s.

I switched to horns and SETS back in 2006 and over the years, and two dedicated rooms later, got it to a level I'm satisfied with. This took time with room set-up, careful attention to power, starting at the meter, and the "right" combination of associated components to bring out the best in what I have- adding more woofers with DSP, changing to the seductive Koetsu- midrange here was always good but the elusive Stones add a gravitas to the bass I never had- along with tone, texture and more harmonics.

I don't know that there are too many shortcuts, but making costly mistakes is no fun either. Which is why, if there is a short-cut answer to the "magic" we believe we hear (and it is an illusion), seat time, lots of it, is essential. As is home trial to the extent possible. There are differences in equipment, so much so that it is amazing we can get it right. 

PS: for me, it is still a knife edge- if I put a different tube in certain places, the voicing changes. The same would be true of a change of cartridge or simply a bad adjustment of a tonearm. 

I guess I believe in a little luck, too. 

In a word. Room. 

I bought an amp because I had read many times that it was a “musical’ amp, and other nice talk.

It was junk, a 3 out of 10; I still have it and would be embarrassed to sell it and inflict it on someone else.

The mistake was that I had not been careful enough in discerning who had actual experience with that amplifier vs who was simply repeating comments they had heard.

Since then, I value only testimony from direct experience.

I have dirty power in my area and it took some time to find this out and clean it up.

I listened to a current speaker model and loved it, but got cheap and bought the close-out without hearing them! I bought those speakers based on lots of reviews and industry hype. I knew better than to buy unheard, but the deal...the deal! From the start they were too bright for me. I swapped out lots of amps, pre-amps, cables, sources etc. I ended up selling them and bought new speakers. My audio life changed for the better. I now advise anyone to listen to as many speakers as you can, spend more on speakers than you feel is wise, then shape the rest of your system based on feeding your speakers what THEY need. 

@nonoise

+1

Yes, when I started out I looked at the color glossies and reviews in non-high end audio magazines (1979). I bought this highly touted Onkyo tape deck… sounded good (although I had nothing to compare it to). Then, wondering through a high end store the salesman showed me a used (seven year old) Nakamichi tape deck (with wood enclosure!, at much more than the Onkyo). I took it home and swapped with my Onkyo. Jaw dropped, my life was changed forever. The Nakamichi was simply a screaming deal for the money).

I realized the popular press was without a clue… like me. At the same time I learned peak watts… and quickly watts rms were no predictor of power, and total harmonic distortion ment noting). I took a deep dive into research and got the stapled together “The Absolute Sound”… magazine… really more of a large pamphlet. Later Stereophile. I started learning by listening. So my first few missteps pointed me away from specs and any popular rags. Hence my disgust that AMR pops up touting “science and specs”… pointing folks away from true performance.

Starting out I fell for reviews and the mystery of tubes without knowing anything about speaker matching and tube rolling. I look back at certain pieces of gear and wonder if I knew then what I know now would I have liked them more. Also I wildly underestimated the importance of speakers overall in a system focusing on digital preamps and amps.

Thanks very interesting post... I live the same experience... A room with a flat response is hell not heaven.. It is not even possible in most room anyway..

Not understanding the frequency spectrum. Thinking that a flat room response is the ultimate pinnacle. We all know how annoying peaks in the bass region can be, but I have since discovered that small peaks (around 3 db) at certain frequencies, in the mid’s and low mid’s can add a richness to vocals and that certain dips in the mid’s can remove a hollowness from vocals that can show up from time to time. A peak in the upper mid’s can add a very striking presence to vocals, lead guitar, acoustic guitar, upper register wind instruments and snare drum strikes. Strategic dips in the upper mid’s and highs can remove the hard edges that you sometimes hear on vocals and can diminish background noise that you don’t even know is there until it’s gone, which reveals a noticeable amount of clarity and detail and creates more air around each instrument. Lastly a peak in the upper high’s that can add a shimmer to cymbals that gives them an almost crystal like quality.

A couple of times poor amplifier choices left me feeling unhappy, but things are right as rain these days, so all is well.

Regards,

Dan

Not understanding the frequency spectrum. Thinking that a flat room response is the ultimate pinnacle.  We all know how annoying peaks in the bass region can be, but I have since discovered that small peaks (around 3 db) at certain frequencies, in the mid’s and low mid’s can add a richness to vocals and that certain dips in the mid’s can remove a hollowness from vocals that can show up from time to time. A peak in the upper mid’s can add a very striking presence to vocals, lead guitar, acoustic guitar, upper register wind instruments and snare drum strikes. Strategic dips in the upper mid’s and highs can remove the hard edges that you sometimes hear on vocals and can diminish background noise that you don’t even know is there until it’s gone, which reveals a noticeable amount of clarity and detail and creates more air around each instrument. Lastly a peak in the upper high’s that can add a shimmer to cymbals that gives them an almost crystal like quality.

Great stuff! Thanks. Keep it coming.

@nonoise 

To be honest, when I first started out I fell for the hype when it comes to amps, power ratings and the like. Add speaker myths about efficiency and the dos and don'ts in all things audio. It was a learning curve for me.

Me too. I also didn't understand about impedance curves and phase angles.

What fundamentals? Far too many and I should know better!

- Buying high end speakers with low end design

- Believing speakers needed to be big

- Believing subs are mainly for movies

- Thinking that my electronics, but mainly my amps were either the problem or the solution

- Accepting at some point that I fundamentally did not understand how what came out of my speakers eventually got to my ears, and what it did when it got there

- Realizing that audio dealers, at least the ones in my area of which there are many, don't know what they are talking about 95% of the time.

As you say it well , upgrading must not be motivated by only frustration..

We must learn the basic in electrical, mechanical and acoustical embeddings..

i learned it the hard way too...

Now i am completely happy with my 600 bucks system...

Upgrade is not an urge at all ... It is not even necessary because i felt no problems or limitations with my actual system...

But it is precisely because as you did yourself, i learned the basic , and now i am ready for the ultimate last and definitive upgrade at the lowest possible cost...Even if i dont need it, i know it will be a real upgrade..

This is the good news...

The bad news is my upgrades will cost me 15,000 bucks at least, it is much more than my basic actual system so satisfying it is... ... But instead of being in the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold , i could be on the best ratio sound quality /price in the world ...( my headphone is really a top headphone )

--- To upgrade my low cost satisfying dac ( dac technology is now mature business low cost dac could be very good ) i will go with the complete new revolution in virtual acoustic room system for speakers and headphone by Dr. Choueri... I will buy his dac implementing his BACCH filters... Here there is no comparison with any other dac because the Choueri dac is a virtual room system patented by Choueri and not a standard dac with NO DEGRADATION OF TIMBRE ... ( i trust acousticians 😊)

--- for amplification i will go Atmasphere D amplification because i trust his craftmanship or To Benring tube ZOTL... I dont know which one for now.. But for sure they will beat my old astoundingly good Sansui alpha...I cannot imagine that Atmasphere and Berning will created inferior design... i am in faith here reading about them... i dream as i said because i dont need upgrading, but being an audiophile is a bit neurotic and dreaming about the best in the world... You know that i think..

--- And nevermind any other headphone i will keep the AKG K340 because i cannot fault it now and i dont know at all  how to upgrade it with improvement on all acoustic factors at play  and not only on one ? Because of his unique technology in headphone history his soundfield is unique... it is a creatuion by an acoustician physicist founder of AKG...  Then i will keep it... I had no idea how to beat it anyway...

Thanks for the interesting thread...

To be honest, when I first started out I fell for the hype when it comes to amps, power ratings and the like. Add speaker myths about efficiency and the dos and don'ts in all things audio. It was a learning curve for me.

Right now I'm running a 70 watt integrated with 87db rated speakers and experiencing the best sound ever. It's the perfect match for my apartment living room. Everything before it was simply overkill. 

All the best,
Nonoise