Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@nyev How much streamers change in future is hard to say, streamer innovations do come fast.

I demoed a variety of power conditioners year ago using Cable Co. lending library. All top of line variety, Shunyata, PS Audio, Audience Adept, none gave me what I was looking for, Audience was close. Like Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles and Jantzen Superior Z capacitors. Balanced transformer proved out best, mods only made it better. Amps always straight into wall.

I'd sure like to see top of line streamer shoot out, well over $100k worth of streamers in direct competition would be awesome! All ports in streamer compared using a variety of top flight dacs with various optimized ports.

Agree with the benefits of using a balanced AC isolation transformer. I can see why the Torus RM 20 improved the sound quality. I have a BPT 3.5 Signature +, which is based around a high quality Plitron balanced AC isolation toroidal transformer. It is an excellent asset for my audio system. I’m a strong advocate for these devices in High End audio systems.

Charles

@lalitk , yes, your experience with conditioners is consistent with mine. They change the tonal balance slightly as there is no way around it when filtering is involved. Others have advised me if this and even Nordost’s support team told me the same thing. And suggested Torus too, along with another consultant I was working with at the time. For many the tonal changes can be okay and it could possibly even help with those struggling with top end harshness or brightness. (Thankfully those days ended for me the moment I got my Gryphon). But for me, conditioners, and yes, the N20 too which IMO has a similar effect, gets you two steps forward and half a step back.  That doesn’t mean I don’t really enjoy this sonic effect.  The problem is I want to be able to have my cake and eat it too….

“A number of ways to skin a cat.”
@charles1dad

Exactly! It appears each manufacturer has a different approach and often times a unique solution to elevate the audio performance. IME, even bigger improvement comes from isolating AC power from the chassis bearing the sensitive audio circuitry and feeding it with a DC hybrid power plant with highest quality components. 

@nyev

Two thumbs up on isolation transformer, that what I use now which replaced a very highly revered and expensive Power Conditioner. Most power conditioner seems to have a sonic signature or color the sound :-)

@lalitk 

Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible

I can appreciate their rationale for choosing this lower power method. A viable alternative to the high processing power required for the Roon approach. Antipodes flagship Olandra music server has abandoned LPS altogether. They believe that high quality SMPS is superior to a high quality LPS. They put their money where their mouth is and are totally committed to this approach. A number of ways to skin a cat.

Charles

Speaking of noise reduction. I was trying to figure out what the Aurender’s signature sound reminded me of. Then it hit me. It’s a lot like the effect I noticed when trialing an Audioquest Niagara 5000 in my system. Super black background, focused sound, and as some folks feel about conditioners, a very slightly truncated top end. Ultimately I didn’t go with the Niagara because it’s transformers buzzed like crazy, just as some others have reported. My Torus RM20 is an isolation transformer that deals with noise, as opposed to a conditioner that filters noise, so the RM20 doesn’t have quite the same sonic traits as a traditional conditioner.

In Stereophile’s K50 review, they published a lot of info directly from Mark Cole of Antipodes. One key thing that really stands out that Mark said is that his competitors implement noise reduction techniques that result in compromised bandwidth. Mark said that Antipodes instead focuses on maximizing bandwidth. Naturally I was wondering which competitors Mark was referring to. But I could see it being Aurender, as his comments would seem to fit with my experience - great noise reduction, gives that “conditioner” effect with black backgrounds and solid sound, but slightly less top end transparency (at least that is my experience with true filtering conditioners).

“ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ”

This may be more of a factor in a streamer or server that runs on ROON or HQPlayer software as these applications requires much higher processing power.

@nyev 
Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible.

The N20’s unique hybrid power supply delivers a pure DC current to flawlessly power the digital audio output board, while a separate linear power supply chain feeds clean power to the non-audio adjacent components of the machine.

@sns , regarding the Statement Next-gen, I think I’ve come back down to earth a bit and realized I don’t want to go that route.  I asked myself the question of whether in 10 years, how will I likely feel about this very expensive component?  Would I be happy today with a top of the line server that came out in 2013?  The answers to these questions are obvious.  With a fair degree of certainty I can say that in 10 years I’ll be going through this process again.  The server is probably the component in our system that will age-out the soonest.  If I had unlimited disposable funds I’d consider this route but alas that is not the case!

I was also considering my priorities sonically last night.  What I realized is that while I like the “touch of warmth” in the server, that’s not the most important thing I’m missing from my current Innuos gear right now.  Everything with the Innuos, while ultra-detailed with dimensionality and space, is presented more delicately.  Snare drums hit lighter.  Everything hits lighter. Guitars are less tangible.  Vocals are more distant.  Everything is slightly less solid and present.  

Buying the N20 was so worth it if only for me to figure this stuff out and learn things about my Innuos gear that I wasn’t aware of - both it’s strengths and it’s flaws.

@sns I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

I’ll take it a step further and say that the quality of the power supply impacts every single audio component.

Charles

@nyev I agree, seems your Gryphon supplies desired level of resolution, transparency with Innuos so Gryphon not the problem. And you hear desired musicality with Aurender, again Gryphon is capable of delivering here for you. This leaves streamer, in your position I'd stretch for new gen Statement, you may be surprised in what the very top tier of the top tier may bring you. Sean Jacobs designs Innuos power supplies, that new PS is really world class, present Statement first gen are jumping on the new gen PS. I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

@lalitk ​​@ghasley , just on the topic of my access to demo cables in Canada, you are right I probably don’t have access to test the variety of cables you have access to. I’ve tested the usual suspects though, for power cords and speaker cables: Audioquest, Shunyata, Nordost, Transparent, Cardas. I also used to have a pair of Clarus Crimson Biwires (fantastic cables) that I sold when I got the Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables. For the record, I didn’t find the Valhalla 2’s to be leaner or brighter than any of the other cables I tested, aside from Cardas which were too slow and warm in my system. The Nordost’s were however far more revealing and yes they have that crisp leading edge quality that Nordost are known for. Certainly no less bass than the others. The Valhalla 2 power cord and USB cable DID have noticeably less bass however. But the speaker cables don’t seem inhibited this way. I’ve read that Gryphon does poorly with extra high capacitance cables like Cardas and there are even reports of some Gryphon users blowing fuses when using Cardas with certain Gryphon amps.

As above, I’m seeking slight warmth in my components, and transparency and neutrality in my cables. My philosophy was to try not to use cables as tone controls for my gear, and to let my gear be the voice of my system. But maybe I need to be a bit more flexible in my philosophy, if I were to go the Innuos route. I did find a dealer who was offering a pretty great discount on a new Statement.

Back to the sound, I’ve noticed a class of music that Innuos clearly does better with than the N20 in my opinion - with the caveat that the AES cable and circuit is still presumably burning in. Music that has a sense of atmosphere driving it, music with air, space, and immersion. The N20 is simply not as immersive with its more dense and solid sound. In comparison these songs with Innuos have air and detail that leap out of my speakers to create an immersive space for the song to exist in. I used the word “expansive” earlier to describe this. Again, not saying the N20 isn’t good in this area but the Innuos is on another level on this particular dimension. I still think I prefer the N20 overall across all music because it has more focus, but I thought this was interesting. I found a dealer who offers excellent discounts on the Innuos Statement, so that could possibly unlock the top of the line Next Gen as an option. But only if I were to go straight to it and bypass buying the others so I don’t lose any cash buying and selling…. If I needed some more liquidity/organic smoothness, I could always resort to a nice Shunyata USB cable. Using “resort” only because it would be compromising my cable philosophy slightly.

It’s an avenue worth considering, because I’m fairly sure the only drawback I’ll find with the Statement Next-Gen is a slight lack of warmth, which is not the biggest deal and yes, can be addressed with cables. InnuOS certainly doesn’t seem performance-limited with my DAC when it comes to detail, air, and space. Wheras the N20 could possibly be limited, given the unexpected result of AES sounding absolutely identical to USB (there may be just the slightest bit of added high frequency sparkle with USB still over AES, not sure).

Thanks All for the excellent advice and thoughts. Yes, I’d be even more surprised if the sound of the N20 doesn’t change over the next two weeks. I’m being patient now!

@sns yes my next step down the road will be to try an alternate server with AES. Maybe the best next server to try would be the Grimm, which is known for its transparency and neutrality. The reason why it might be best as the next in line is that if the Grimm doesn’t get me that extra degree of transparency, along with the expected bump in performance over USB, then I guess at that point I could reasonably conclude that I need to lean towards the Innuos Statement (possibly with a different cable as @ghasley suggested), if I am committed to the Gryphon DAC module. I really hope my quest doesn’t evolve to looking into streaming DACs… my aversion to that approach is really due to budget - which needs to be higher to factor in the cost of the DAC while achieving a comparable quality, not to mention that I would feel then need to buy a premium interconnect, likely for higher cost than the AES cables I’ve been looking at.

I’m confident the Statement wouldn’t have the issue with overall image solidity, but while my Innuos gear is clearly class-leading at transparency and detail, what comes through just isn’t as stable, solidified, saturated and focused as on the Aurender as I mentioned above. I could be mistaken but I’d be surprised if a cable fixed this issue. Especially because the N20 with those same cables absolutely does not have this issue.

@ghasley my upstream components include the Innuos PhoenixNET also with AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet cables on either side of it. I’ve been experimenting with and without the PhoenixNET with the N20. Still not sure I like the combination as there seems to be an additive effect towards overall smoothness, whereas this really helps with the Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB. Torus RM20 powering everything on a dedicated AC line, Audioquest Hurricane source cables powering everything except the Torus and Diablo300 which are Dragons.  My full system is listed on my profile.

@nyev 

I'd assume you are in for some gyrations in SQ over the next few weeks. At least it isn't worse than the USB at this point, but it very well could be worse at some point in the near future.

I'm living through this right now. I changed out the Network cable running from my fiber ONT to my router with a Supra 8+ cable on 1/28/2023 and it had 1,000s of hours on it, so fully burned in. It hadn't been used in a year though. But I thought it should easily be better than the $0.10 cable from ATT, regardless of that fact. However, it isn't even near as good. Loss of bass, not as lifelike, etc. In fact, less bass today than yesterday. Pretty frustrating, but I know I need to let it burn in for a solid week or more. If it never perks up, over say two weeks, I'll turn it around and listen to what happens.

So, I'd do the same if I were you; let the cable and the circuitry in the N20 fully burn in and settle. I know it is hard to wait, but hopefully you won't have to wait too long before it comes on song.

I agree dac maybe limiting factor here. If dac not fully optimized usb and roughly equal to AES input, I'd expect streamer with optimized AES to have superior SQ. If this were my setup and comparison, my next comparison would be to another streamer with optimized AES, perhaps the deficiencies heard with Aurender AES may be alleviated.  Assuming usb in Gryphon not fully optimized, streamer with optimized usb in not allowing full usb potential to be heard. In general terms I suspect any dac with less than optimal usb will sound better with other inputs, streamer optimized for outputs other than usb will only increase the advantages of these other inputs.

@nyev 

I read one post from a guy who loved his Shunyata Omega USB so much that he was basing his choice of system components around this cable.

Whomever posted that isnt someone with whom I would agree with about very much. His statement is silly.

All I’m missing is the top end transparency

You will get no tonal arguments from me about the N20 vs Innuos. The Innuos with a different USB cable would be a start. It would also be interesting to know the rest of your digital chain upstream from your streamers. As I'm already on record...I preferred the Innuos...until I tried some others and ended up preferring the Grimm MU1. There is no right or wrong answer, only your preferences.

@ghasley certainly no offence taken and I agree the Diamond is not what to turn to for “a touch of warmth”. But here’s the thing: the N20 with my Gryphon gear, with the Diamond cables connecting them, gives me all the warmth I’m looking for. All I’m missing is the top end transparency, which is certainly not caused by the Diamond cables.

I’ve read many accounts that the Shunyata digital cables are superb. I’ve also read that they lean towards a very smooth, liquid, organic sound. My philosophy (rightly or wrongly) has been to seek such sonic characteristics from components and have the cabling inject as little as possible of their own character. Others have the opposite approach. I read one post from a guy who loved his Shunyata Omega USB so much that he was basing his choice of system components around this cable.

I agree with @ghasley on AQ and let me add Nordost to the list of cables that are anything but warm. Maybe being in Canada, @nyev is limited on what he can get for home audition.

@nyev Once again, no offense intended, but I don't think of Audioquest Diamond and "touch of warmth" in the same thought string.

You are venturing where many have been and the left turn/right turn decision tree can be interesting. When I had my Innuos setup, my favorite usb cable was the Final Touch Audio Sinope. I was never fond of the Audioquest cables after trying and owning a few. I have a friend who swears by his Audioquest USB cables. What might sound broken to me might sound exceptional to another.

With my Grimm I ended up preferring the Shunyata Sigma V2 aes/ebu cable. I will be trialing a new Network Acoustics AES/ebu cable in the coming weeks because, well, just because LOL.I enjoy my setup as is but I like to see what small changes do to the sound. They arent always positive but they are always informative. Good luck.

@ghasley, totally agree that maybe the DAC is holding things back. Unlike many I have no problem being objectively critical of my gear even if I have an affection for it. One thing though is that the Innuos unquestionably has more high frequency detail (to an astounding degree that I was not expecting, and possibly having too much detail for my system) feeding the Gryphon DAC module. So I don’t see that it could be the DAC module that is capping this part of the performance at least.

Update: Unless, I realized, Innuos has done something in their USB implementation that gets past the Gryphon DAC module’s limitations somehow. As I mentioned above Innuos did feed the Diablo DAC module with the Statement Next Gen at the Munich show last year.  If that turns out to be the case, maybe I need to seriously consider trialing the Innuos Statement. Maybe I can even consider putting the funds I was planning to spend on the AES cable towards the Statement Next Gen if I were to buy it. Nuno at Innuos did offer to send me one for evaluation.  I just don’t think I’d get the touch of warmth I am looking for, but I’m guessing it would more than compensate in other ways.

@nyev 

Indeed, perhaps surprising while maybe not all that surprising.

I can't speak for the others who have commented but in the back of my mind, no matter how good we all think the Gryphon dac module may be, it will likely be the weak point in your very high quality chain. I'm not saying that to be critical in any way. In fact, you have to admit that the dac module plays at a very high level for a plugin type module but dacs in general have come a very long way in a few short years. In a logical world, the clocking of the N20 should be superior to the clocking of your dac module.

I’m also realizing through this process with the N20 and Innuos that I too lean slightly warm side. I guess I knew that before as my Diablo 300 and DAC are slightly warm leaning, but I didn’t know that I’d also prefer slight bit of warmth in my network server.

The N20’s AES and USB outputs sound utterly identical now. @lordmelton I tried changing the output to “Professional” as suggested and there was no change. Aurender’s documentation states that this setting is to address compatibility issues with some DAC’s only and has no effect on sound quality whatsoever, and they imply most should not need to touch this unless they have compatibility issues.

At this point I’m preferring the N20 over the Innuos for its more solid and musical presentation. Still need that smidge more high frequency transparency and detail to get me there. Still more burnin to go of course. Planning two weeks of burn-in of the AES circuits and cable (I think the rest of the unit must be fully burned in at this point), 2-3 weeks of critical listening and living with it, then I’ll sell either the Innuos stuff or the N20 to make way for the next comparison.

It is a bit odd and unexpected that there is absolutely no difference between AES and USB on the N20, despite the fact that the AES circuits and cable are still burning in. Given how different the N20’s circuits are between USB and AES, I would have expected SOME difference, regardless of whether better or worse! It makes me wonder if something else in my system is capping performance of the server across the board which causes both output types to sound the same. Can’t think of what though.  Even due to the fact that the AES cable is brand new, and that fact alone, should cause there to be differences but no!

@sns

I’ve come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I’d prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev sound analysis.

No problem at all. As we both know this is subjectivity in pure form. You’re just a bit to the “cool” side of neutral and I’m just a bit to the “warm” side of neutral.

Charles

I've found 'closed in' sq typical early in burn in period. Fuses do make a difference, forgot about this in case of streamer, will try the purple.

When speaking of deriving pleasure from the sound of my system vs music, its not a battle, rather I take great pleasure from both. Certainly my immersion into music has followed with better sound, but better sound has also brought a new appreciation of that sound, the analytical mode of listening is no longer something I want to avoid.  Now I can relate to the need to get away from the analytic mode of listening, in the sense this will uncover some already known flaw or perhaps new flaw. In this case the analytical mode is not bringing us full measure of pleasure, its simply a utilitarian mode required in creating our 'perfect' system. Easy to understand the desire to escape this and fall into the music loving mode. Perhaps I am like Matisse in that I can now derive pleasure from what could be analagous to a painting, in that I perceive my audio system as a totally unique 'work of art'. Think of all the work and time that goes into building our systems, in my case nearly fifty years of listening to audiophile systems and or building systems, think of all the resources we expend in our never ending search for this 'perfect' system.  So now we reach this point where the analysis of sound no longer brings displeasure, only pleasure. This becomes OUR great work of art, we take great pleasure in the 'shapes and hues' of our creation. Hues and shapes in regard to audio reproduction is the overall gestalt of our creation, this holistic perspective in regard to sound can bring great pleasure, the SOUND is OUR masterpiece, the music is another person's masterpiece.

And this mode of listening need not compete or interfere with our immersion into the music, it only ADDS to it. I have to seriously question whether I'm  alone in taking this amount of pleasure from APPRECIATION of the sound ? Hard for me to believe all of us don't take some measure of pleasure from our creations or works of art!

@charles1dad  When speaking of 'different strokes for different folks' I was referring to a  preference for the color of our systems on a warm to cool scale, romantic being on warm side, analytical on cold, cool end. I've built systems and heard systems that reside at nearly all places on  this scale. Based on quite large sample size I've come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I'd prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev  sound analysis.

@nyev Go into the Aurender settings - ADVANCED and change the SPDIF output to PROFESSIONAL.

Next go to RESET DAC VOLUME CONTROL.

TURN YOUR VOLUME CONTROL TO ZERO BEFORE YOU DO THE RESET!!!!

Enjoy!!!!

So far, the ONLY difference with AES on the N20 is that it has less of the upper frequencies that make it through, ve USB. It will be interesting to see how this progresses as the Audioquest Diamond cable is brand new with 0 hours, I don’t think the N20’s AES circuits have ever been engaged, and my DAC’s AES input has never been used.

I’m actually really glad I started with the Diamond AES cable, so I can compare as much as possible the differences between USB and AES using a truly equivalent cable. It’s quite remarkable how they just sound identical when I flip from one to the other, with the exception of more upper frequencies with USB. Other than that, I can’t detect any other differences whatsoever at this point.

So I asked my dealer for an ETA on the Audioquest AES cable, and lo and behold, it just arrived this morning. Like I said, happens every single time I check in for an update :)

Anyways at least I have an AES cable of decent quality to start burning in along with my N20’s AES circuits and clock.

@grannyring , for sure have read yours and other’s accounts of the improvements fuses can bring. I definitely plan to follow up on this when I get to the tweak phase. I’m sure based on the many accounts out there that the fuses would lift both the N20 and my Innuos gear. But my thinking currently is to see how I find each server on equal terms first.

I’m a terrible audiophile and really fell into this path not for the sake of the gear, but rather by my obsession with music as a teen, and struggling to find a stereo system that I didn’t find utterly grating and destructive to my enjoyment of music. I found I couldn’t spend $5k (decades ago) on a full scale system and have it be enjoyable. I tried everything I could going to dealers and found everything to be grating in some way. I succumbed to a $1,200 Yamaha mini system that actually sounded rather good for what it was, and wasn’t grating like those $5k full systems sounded to me. My daughter now has it in her bedroom after my sister gave it to her after I had given it to my sister.

The quest continues, but yeah, for me personally music comes first.

Yes indeed Charles. The fuse is certainly directional.  I have found all fuses to be directional.  Innuos has a fuse flow diagram on their site. The Purple flows from S to R on the label and when placed according to the Innuos flow diagram the fuse sounds best.  

@grannyring Charles, I am going to put the Purple fuse in my Tron dac as my only tweak 🙂. We will see if it also brings the magic with this dac or not

Bill, I’m genuinely interested in the outcome with the excellent Tron DAC. Did you find the SR Purple fuse to be directional? The builder of my new DAC said listening confirmed to him that wire is directional in orientation.  He knows that this is a controversial position, he doesn’t care.

Charles

Yes, we all have differing sonic priorities so what one finds less enjoyable completely immerses another. Love this hobby!

I owned the Phoenix USB reclocker with my Innuos Zenith 3, and while it improved transparency, I ended up selling it as I preferred the more relaxed and organic sound of my Mojo Audio dac without it. Just a reflection of my preference.

I will say this again as I feel it is important. Try a SR Purple fuse in your server/streamer before making any kind of final decision. Let it burn in for 48 hours and then listen. This one tweak has improved the sound of my streaming front end more than any other single network upgrade. No joke. Yes, more than my switch, filters, LPS and other network upgrades. A revelation in my Zenith. Regardless of your feelings on fuses, be open minded and try one. They offer a 30 day return policy. Don’t judge the sound until in place and run in for 48 hours. Get one rated about 25% higher amperage than the stock fuse.

All sonic parameters improved. All of them. Music is also released more from the speakers in a magical way. I have tried many fuses over the years and the Purple one is just so special in my Innuos server. It’s like I upgraded to a far more expensive server.

Charles, I am going to put the Purple fuse in my Tron dac as my only tweak 🙂. We will see if it also brings the magic with this dac or not.

@sns analysis of sound quality shouldn’t be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

Different strokes for different folks, indeed.

Nothing wrong with analyzing sound. Everyone has to enjoy and appreciate the listening experience in their own preferable manner. I was just stating my priorities. They certainly do not have to be your chosen way. No proclamations here.

I do genuinely appreciate good sound quality or I wouldn’t be so selective with audio equipment. But, when all is said and done, the way the music is reproduced and presented is far more valuable to me. Again, that’s just me.

Charles

“IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.”

+1, @charles1dad 

I dealt with Cable Company for years, never a problem returning a cable, this with literally hundreds of cable over years. I understand one may have issues with any single rep at the Cable Co, I had issues with one individual there, refused to deal with him anymore. Funny thing is at the end of all that cabling demoing I ended up worrying less about cabling, kind of set it and forget it mindset.

@charles1dad Different strokes for different folks. I want max res and trans, I find extracting max info draws me further into music, Following is usual response I have from system these days. Early in listening session, listening to sound, admiring it, followed by music intensity mode which can last for hours with short intervals of listening to the sound. Great thing is admiring quality of sound is very satisfying for me these days,  this need  to admire sound is what sets audiophiles apart from 'normal' mortals, I'll also posit audiophiles will always listen to sound at some point in listening sessions. Quality sound should elicit an inherent pleasure, one that's  quite separate from the music, analysis of sound quality shouldn't be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music

It this turns out to be the essential distinction between the two, I’d choose the Aurender by the proverbial country mile. IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.

Charles

Back to the N20. Have been listening all night while working on my laptop. I know, not ideal (the working part). It is just so enjoyably immediate, so condensed (not compressed), so inviting with a touch of warmth, and so opposite really from the Innuos’ open expansive neutral and ultra-detailed sound. The N20 has a totally different take, that is highly musical. With the added bass that has arrived it adds some drive that was missing before. I am not demanding a solution that has all of the upper frequency resolution of the Innuos. Just halfway between the N20 and the Innuos would be fine. With a touch of high frequency resolution I think the 3D depth and spatial positioning would as a byproduct get better too. If this were achieved I’d be happy with this solution if it was the last server I owned. I find speaker positioning is far more finicky with my Innuos (in my revealing-leaning system), as the slightest bit off can just totally ruin things. The N20 is far more forgiving.

Starting to think the Innuos setup might give me too much transparency. It’s mind blowing how much inner detail it adds when I switch back to Innuos; it’s almost like a HiFi tech demo vs the N20 which has a more liquid and music-driven presentation. Another thing I blamed on my speakers was very poor off axis performance where if you move inches from the sweet spot the image starts falling apart. Not so with the N20. The image follows beautifully moving left to right. I’m still blown away at how a network player can impact these things. I had never realized that before.

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music.

Back to work and cable-hunting.  I think Sweden opens for business in a couple hours so may drop them a line.

@ghasley totally get it. First, I do expect to get back most of the value of the devices I try but do not keep. Also I wouldn’t actually go further than the K50 now without first unloading one of the other servers I have, even if I “wish” I could just get all three so I have them ready to be tested. Having just the next one waiting in the wings is enough!

Buying cables can rack up the cost very quickly if it doesn’t work out and I end up having to buy 3-4 pricey cables. Not sure if this is correct but I have a hunch these may be harder to resell as well.

If I could buy a good used AES cable with reasonable confidence that it’s not counterfeit, I would. At least my Audioquest Diamond demo should be arriving anytime at my dealer, hopefully this week.

In short, I’m not about throwing my cash around, unless I’m reasonably confident I can get the cash back, even if it takes some time. Plus, the interaction with The Cable Co wasn’t the best and I wouldn’t want to go through them - will leave it at that.

If I’m lucky, when all is said and done I will not even have spent the full amount of the new server, as I’ll be able to sell everything I’m not keeping, including my existing Innuos gear.  In reality I know that might be a stretch.  Especially due to the pending recession, which may put major delays in selling.

@nyev 

Listen, I’m not trying to be difficult…but..you are considering acquiring two, maybe three $15kish server/streamers simultaneously. I’m not sure I understand why you might be worried about whether you can return a $1-1.5k aes cable or duties? Time value of money vs money value of time…

And they refuse returns for cables in many circumstances. And generally frown upon the concept.

Also I find that being in Canada, brands often prefer dealing directly when there is no distribution in my country available. That was the case with Innuos, where they preferred to work through a dealer of my choice. Which is great because I don’t directly deal with import duties with that approach.

Also, Jorma’s website lists “Vana Ltd” as their distribution on NA.  I have an open ticket with them I opened over a week ago.

@ghasley 

I believe it has been acknowledged that the Cable Company doesn't extend their lending service to Canada.

Charles

You would have had the Jorma last week from The Cable Company. I’ve found when manufacturers have a distribution partner, they expect it to be used.

Speaking of “pumping the brakes”, one seller responded that their K50 is confirmed by Antipodes as being the V1 hardware, prior to the major 2021 revision in response to the supply chain issues they were facing. I don’t think there is any consensus on how the sound changes, other than both versions sound great. The revisions were major as I mentioned, to the clock, power supply and other areas, so there must be some degree of sonic difference even if one is not “better”. That said, I think I’d still want to be testing the latest rev.

The other seller hasn’t got back to me on my offer. Will let it go. Just trying to line up opportunities for the future for testing the other two, as opportunities arise to buy used. At this level, opportunities only come by once in a while. My focus remains on taking my time getting to know the N20 regardless of what happens!  The recent  development with respect to bass is rather exiting.  The whole presentation has a lot more presence and energy as a result.

If only I could get Sablon and / or Jorma to respond in regard to the AES cable. Will try calling them next.

Yes, I found getting the positioning the best it could be before the tweaks became less frequent took a lot of incremental adjustments over a long period of time. I’m sure I could further refine the speaker positions with the N20, but the towed in positions solved the initial image issues I had observed.

I had two issues with the painter’s tape. First, the edge is flat, when I’m measuring the exact position of the round Herbie’s slider. The sharpie enables me to apply a small amount of curvature, by tracing the slider at four points around the slider. This allows me to “seat” the speaker’s four sliders more accurately within these small curves, ensuring the desired position is re-achieved. I can then have several incremental markings that I can flip between when experimenting with minute changes. The other issue I had with tape is, over time, sliding over it and damaging its position. Anyhow, that seems to have worked for me with my prior Innuos setup, albeit over the course of months (with intensive effort in the first week or two of positioning, followed by intermittent tweaks over subsequent months). I’m satisfied that I have achieved the optimal positioning with the Innuos gear. Until something changes in the system or room, as you pointed out!

Yes, time of day totally matters too…. I still have better performance at night after midnight, with better special separation and depth. Nothing unusual there!l, but annoying nonetheless!

One thing I noticed about positioning. I gave up on measuring until the very end. I find that going on my ears usually results in a near symmetrical (and a few times exactly symmetrical) position for the speakers. If there is a slight discrepancy at the end, I then adjust one speaker at a time while marking their original positions, to see which one should move to match the other.

My latest process, which is constantly evolving. But for me personally my current process is way ahead of what I used to do.

@nyev 

Often I will cut multiple strips of painters tape, the same number of strips of heavy duty graph paper (the kind with precise grids). I place the strips according to precise measurements. I mark the paper with the corresponding measurements and then go to work. Once I get them dialed in, making notes along the way, and then I snap photos. I make notes of everything, down to the cable, the time of day, the tracks used and the resolution of the file. Then, once dialed in, I put it all away and just live with the final product for a while. Its a rare occurrence that things dont need readjustment, with new notes, photos, etc. Really smart (or impatient) people rarely go these lengths and thus, they get random and unrepeatable outcomes.

Everyone has their technique…the one Ive settled with works for me…YMMV.

And @ghasley , I do have sharpie marks on my floor for the EXACT speaker positions, much to the chagrin of my wife. All I had on hand was a red sharpie, so my wife was like “OMG IS THAT BLOOD”…. She thought maybe I had truly taken my hobby too far lol…..

I find if the speakers are just a few millimetres off, things sound different for sure. Sometimes to the extent that if something sounds slightly off, I can simply wiggle one speaker without repositioning and the problem can be fixed. I put the sharpie marks at the circumference of the Herbie’s gliders that I use.

I used to use painters tape as you suggested, but I found it to be less precise than drawing 4 small lines around each of the gliders.

Update:  I should also mention that my wife was okay with the sharpie on the floor when I proved to her it comes right off with a dab of acetone / nail polish remover, without ruining the floor in any way!

@ghasley , I probably wouldn’t have believed you on having to reset up my speakers had I not already found the need to do that between the N20 and the Innuos products!  At least I knew from what I was hearing that the speakers needed an initial adjustment with the N20, rather than just assuming the N20’s imaging was messed up, which is not the case at all.  So yes I am expecting further tweaks will be needed once the AES cable goes in.  And the cable will need burning in itself.  My dealer is closed Mondays but I’ll call tomorrow asking for an update on the AES cable.  There is a tendency for an item I’m waiting for to magically arrive at my dealer the very same day I call to ask for an update / remind them. 
 

Still waiting to hear back from Sablon (although I first emailed on Friday), and I am poking Jorma again too.  Seems hard to get their attention; business must be good.

And to re-setup your speakers. Its a thing. Seriously.

I was waiting until this morning to confirm, but the N20’s bass has become fuller rather suddenly. It’s not as big overall compared with the Innuos boxes at this point, but now it’s got so much more drive and solidity in the bass than the Innuos, despite not being as big and well defined. At this point I’d choose the Aurender’s bass over the Innuos bass (which is still more precise, refined, and accurate, but with less drive, focus, and solidity). The N20’s mid and top end still sounds the same as before. But wow, that bass drive is impressive.  There is a grip there that didn’t exist 1 day prior.

It’s for reasons like this that when I get the AES cable, I plan to use it at least for a solid month prior to comparing to a third server like the K50, should I acquire one now. As I said above I’ve heard accounts that the AES circuits do not automatically break in along with the rest of the unit if AES is not used during initial breakin. If I’m not mistaken I think the original owner used USB so the AES may never have been used. Same goes for my DAC’s AES interface.

With the K50, if the seller agrees to my offer (haven’t heard back so maybe they didn’t accept), it’s simply to acquire a used K50 at a decent price while one is available used. My focus won’t shift for some time yet!

Lastly, it’s not a deciding factor at all, but if the N20 wins out, I must say that I like the screen.  Even if I’ve had it off in critical listening mode for the most part.  And it’s the only device I’m looking at that has one!