I'm looking to upgrade my streaming from a Logitech Transporter to something a bit more hi-end.
Problem is most of my choices have USB outputs only. My DAC Bel Canto 3.7 (recently upgraded by Ace Tomato) Doesn't support USB. All of a sudden it seems like manufacturers are putting usb outs only. I'm looking at Sonore Rendu & Innuos products mainly because I will be able to keep the Squeezebox ecosystem with these products, and they both appear to be of good quality. Some of the Innuos products do provide Spdif out, but they have internal DACs, which I'm not interested in.
Now I'm longing for a DAC that supports USB. maybe the Bel Canto 2.7 which I'm not sure if it will be better than my Bel Canto 3.7 with upgraded power supply etc.
Do USB converters degrade the audio signal ? Do I have to search out and expensive USB to SPDIF converter ?
I wonder what others are doing with older type DACs that they love ?
The Sonore Rendu setup looks real hi-end. Seems they have really taken the time to clean up the digital audio signal. I would really like to go that route. Their USB to SPDIF converter costs $500usd.
Please don't bother recommending other streamers which take me out of the Squeezebox LMS ecosystem.
Maybe tell me about your work around for USB out only devices. Perhaps someone can give me a comparisons on the Bel Canto 3.7 to the Bel Canto 2.7. I love Bel canto and might just change DACs. As the 2.7 is more future proof.
The Innuos Pulse outputs AES, RCA SPDIF and USB. I have not listened to one however Innuos does fine work. Previous owner of Innuos Zenith Mk3, current owner of Grimm Mu1. Best wishes.
The Bryston BDP-3 can function as a Squeeze Slave and has AES/EBU and S/PDIF out. I have the Bryston BDP-Pi functioning as a ROON endpoint and it works great for that , small footprint as well. I have never tried the Squeeze...
BDP-3 also has Squeezelight capability but again I have no idea on functionality.
Keep in mind that USB has better jitter and also much higher bandwidth than S/PDIF. If you are happy with your DAC and it's high rez capabilities then that shouldn't matter to you, but if you want to stream high resolution DSD for instance that will need USB.
If your streamer only outputs USB you have the option to connect the USB to a DDC, which would allow various options for outputs to your DAC and which may also improve the signal going to the DAC. Here is one of the many options.
Keep in mind that USB has better jitter and also much higher bandwidth than S/PDIF. If you are happy with your DAC and it's high rez capabilities then that shouldn't matter to you, but if you want to stream high resolution DSD for instance that will need USB.
RE:Jitter...with Spdif since the clocking is performed at the source rather than the dac, would it be more accurate to say that jitter depends on the quality of the clock at the source if using spdif or at the dac if using usb?
@ghasley- Kind of. I'd say rather that with S/PDIF:
Final Jitter >= Streamer Jitter > DAC Jitter
Generally speaking, the best jitter performance comes from excellent clocks which are cozied up to the DAC chip, with very short traces so it's nearly impossible for a streamer to equal the performance of a DAC with a excellent jitter performance.
Having said this, we may be splitting hairs as jitter performance is overall just so much better than the first days of the CD.
@tvadThanks, but I'm not sure they all use a squeezebox interface. The main reason I'm sticking with LMS end point is , its a nice open source ecosystem. It's been around for over a decade and it's always being updated.
@tvadYes I know that. Pulse Mini seems more affordable than Pulse, but without linear power supply. I like that Innuos lets you use Squeezebox interface and easily flip over to their own Sense app, which I hear is very good. Just haven't heard that its a huge step up from my Transporter for the price. I found someone selling Pulsemini + Linear power supply for $1400usd. Again feeling like its a lateral move right now. I'm trying to dig down on this....
Would I be able to run Squeezelite on Sonore Signature Series Ethernet to Spdif Render ? I can handle tech, but ZI have to admit I'm starting to get confused, that is why I've looked at Innuos.
@tvadWow, you have had the gamut of streamers. Lots of those streamers are next level pricing, except for the Rendu and Innuos. Thanks so much for your insight.
Auralic and most streamers really can use LMS it's UPNP and most streamers are compatible with that. That said you never know you may find a streamers app better I personally love the Auralic LDS app. I did use LMS back in the day with my old Squeezebox and it was just fine.
Antipodes is about as good as it gets. I have a CX which is USB only but I believe some of their models have multiple outlets. Which model are you looking at? Incidentally they have the best customer support bar none.
The DS3 is an early model, pre 2017 I think and according to the website has analogue output as well as USB. I assume that means SPDIF. I haven't seen a review but I would bet if it is Antipodes it will be pretty good but it depends on the asking price if it is good value. Hi Fi Shark should give you some idea about value.
Have you looked @ the Bel Canto Stream 2? The Seek app is great and the outputs are all there and it would mate with your 3.7 like a champ. I run one into a DAC 2.8 via AES and could not be happier. I switch between Roon and the Seek app and the vtuner integration in Seek is great as well.
I like your DAC especially if you have the VBS power supply. The likely potential for a sonic upgrade and their excellent Sense app would point me toward Innuos. Either a used Zen Mk3 or a Pulse Mini with something like a Teddy Pardo LPS paired with a Denafrips Iris DDC would be the way I’d go. Either combo would cost around $2500, and the Iris may add further benefits in terms of additional noise reduction. Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck.
I've purchased a Antipodes DS-3 recently upgraded by the company in 2020 with 4TB SSD drives among other things. This unit does have a Spdif output, despite the company suggesting to use USB.
I paid $550usd + S booster linear power supply $185usd
The seller told me it sounds great using LMS, better than Roon end point.
Antipodes has a very robust support team. They will walk you through everything as you navigate the system.
This company has a great reputation, I'm extremely happy to have got this for a decent price.
I wasn't even looking for storage space, let alone 4TB worth.
I'll follow up with sound. I'm receiving it tomorrow.
@soixbtw Soix, I have the most updated version of Bel Canto 3.7 power supply. I got it upgraded from the VBS1 to a VBL(Linear). I lost the 3 connections for only one, didn't need a 3 connection setup. Dac also go a reference upgrade, I couldn't afford the "Statement" upgrade.
All modified by ACE Tomato (formerly of Bel Canto) He has been a blessing to me. Honest tech.
I had a Signature Optical Rendu Se and my unit had only USB but I believe newest model has added a port, like maybe AES but unsure. In any case, I LOVED Sonore and it does support Squeeze, of which I am a huge fan even though I had a lifetime sub for Roon. Incomparable . The support for Squeeze and at the time my SGC was just OK (lousy GUI). So I moved to Antipodes which allocates great resources in support of Squeeze. But I can recommend Sonore for sure at a "moderate" price point relative to others.
Sorry, @bunkertoyI hadn’t noticed you’d bought into the Antipodes ecosystem. Yes, company offers superb support. And they’re genuinely good people. I’ve met both Mark Cole and the owner Mark Jenkins. And many people have no idea how much better sounding Squeeze is than Roon. That’s why they pour so many resources into it. And it’s precisely why I passed on Grimm. Roon only. I love Roon for the GUI but use it mainly on Friday to scope out new Qobuz selections and save those I like as favorites.
As an FYI, Mark Cole (COO) and I both have the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC and prefer AES. I’m using Cerious Tech Lumniscate which I highly recommend. Superb. Have all their power cords too.
I’m hoping to get to know the staff at Antipodes. I’m having issues...... Unlike many companies, I was able to book an appt with Antipodes. Talk about next level...
Even though there was some push back upthread about USB to SPDIF converters, I would encourage you to look into those. Many pro reviewers have had big success with them and some, like the 6moons guy, state they have yet to find any situation where a good USB to SPDIF device does not bring improvement.
The good part is that it's relatively affordable to try one and you don't have to change any of your other components.
I agree with @v-fi about USB converters such as this one from Sonore, and don’t forget about DDC choices like the one from Singxer I linked in my earlier post, or several offered by Denafrips, or even the Holo Audio Red, which is both a capable DDC and a network streamer.
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