Garrard 301-Worth the effort?

Dover, you have to read between the lines sometimes and with tongue in the cheek - "ever" is actually factually and irrefutably true in my systems and in my personal experiences and cannot be denied in my universe - but there are parallel universes (according to Fringe that is)

When a "Manufacturer" writes that Schroeder and Schick are among the best Tonearm Manufacturers in the world, then it is a slap in the face of every serious Designer who has some (University) knowledge about Design, Distortion, Material, Energy transfer and knowledge what-is-responsible-for -what. A knife and a piece of wood is hardly enough, even when Marketing and DIY Voodoo replace it all.
A "Manufacturer" who has no idea about anything and replaces that with blubbering phrases others tell or told him, may be a nice guy, but hardly someone who can be taken serious.
When a Plinth needs 100lbs to dampen the rattling main unit then it is wasted time to discuss any turntable design when such a rattling unit is hyped as a ultimate solution. Maybe you paid the Schroeder Arms with your Plinth, or whatever, I am not seriously interested in these kind of background, but you should try to understand what you do. I guess, you will never get it and don't take it personal, you are not alone. It is much easier to buy an old 300$ turntable (Garrard, Technics, Denon...) and to "refurbish" it with a multi-thousand Dollar Chassis and there are customers out there who also have no idea about what is a tonal right reproduction. Idler Drive is not among that. It never was. It is a result from an era where no other solutions were available. And solidity is not a part of good sound which more modern and better designed units can offer. Mainly it is Entertainment today. And the comments and named products show clearly, OMA is Entertainment. High End Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes.
After all, the desperate Audiophile can - and will - still say "... but I like it."
That is normally the final comment for everything today.
So I asked my Mom to visit that video first. She did and said:"Boy, it's time to got to bed"

"And I must apologize to you and this forum, for the lack of substantiation of my comments in that piece. I did indeed contact the National Bureau of Standards and the National Academy of Science for third party verification of my assertions, but they were too busy substantiating all of the other Audiogon poster's claims."

One of the top 10 posts in the history of Audiogon ;-)

Jonathan - apart from the hyperbole, I do like your gear, and the plinths look great.......cheers.

Syntax asked for some more "fairy tales", so how could I refuse?

And I must apologize to you and this forum, for the lack of substantiation of my comments in that piece. I did indeed contact the National Bureau of Standards and the National Academy of Science for third party verification of my assertions, but they were too busy substantiating all of the other Audiogon poster's claims.

Glad it made you chuckle.

Jonathan Weiss
OMA

Jweiss/Radicalsteve

You guys crack me up.

"the best tweeter ever"
"the only speaker in the world made of solid wood"
"slate is perfect material for audio...doesn't ring"
"my TT101 is the most dynamic deck ever"

None of which can be substantiated.

Completely neutral here with no axe to grind of any kind. I currently have an OMA Lenco, my own high mass wood plinth Lenco, a 301 by Dobbins, a 401 refurbed by Loricraft in an Artisan plinth, a Kenwood LO-7D, an SP_10 Mk2, a Victor TT 101 in a japanese very heavy lead plinth and recently sold my Micro Seiki SX-8000.

Despite the fact I would love my hand rubbed piano polished birds eye maple wood plinth to be superior, and noting my TT 101 is the most dynamic deck ever, the OMA Lenco is easily comparable and in some areas exceeds the other decks. Nothing comes out superior, because each has different qualities, but the OMA has no shortcomings, has the best emotion and easily could be my "desert island" deck.

Mosin, my deepest apologies, apparently no one aside from you is allowed to have or state their own opinion......

"I do support the DIY community along with my friends in the cottage industry, and I know and consider Steve Dobbins to be in that extended family. He is one of the good guys. So is Nantais, although we have been at odds from time to time"

Now we all know another shill lurking in the midst. Welcome to the club! J

Hello Syntax,

Nice to hear from you. You'd like to hear more fairy tales from OMA? Great, here's one-

http://lifeandtimes.com/the-blueprint-oswaldsmill-audio

But it might give you nightmares. Ask your parents before watching it.

Good Night,

Jonathan

12-08-11: Jeremy72
"Steve Dobbins is probably the best person in the US to tweak it and refresh the linkage and idler. "

Not true. I'd try Chris at Artisan Fidelity, rumor has it they are currently working on a new 301 restoration which is going to be out of this world. Their plinths and restorations are top notch quality and they are said to be building the highest performing Lenco based idler drives available at this time. They're better built and certainly have much better fit and finish compared the the Canadian nantais modifier/builder. His work looks like it was built in someones shed by a high school woodshop student with a can of spray paint imo.
__________________________________________________________

And, then....

01-07-13: Jeremy72
"Mosin, don't forget to add Sonny1930 to your conspiracy list and any other hobbyists you wish to pick on. Don't forget about the Nantais fanboys and all others..... J"
__________________________________________________________

And I'm the one accused? Go figure. If nothing else, I do support the DIY community along with my friends in the cottage industry, and I know and consider Steve Dobbins to be in that extended family. He is one of the good guys. So is Nantais, although we have been at odds from time to time, but at least we did it in a direct exchange for all to see and judge for themselves. I hold no ill-will towards him, and I do take offense when I see his, or any, product being derided for the sole purpose of promoting another, but I said that in my earlier post.

Hopefully, we can get back on track to the original poster's purpose for the thread, and I apologize to the readers for keeping it off-track this long, but I felt a response was necessary.

I love reading Fairy tales. OMA, more, please.

Mosin, don't forget to add Sonny1930 to your conspiracy list and any other hobbyists you wish to pick on. Don't forget about the Nantais fanboys and all others..... J

Wrong Jweiss, just don't care for the Slate sound, it's a personal preference. If I'm a shill, then so are about a hundred other posters here and on other forums who talk about products they like. Mosin, you obviously are just looking for an angle to put down others opinions. It's ok to like one thing but not another and to voice ones opinion is heresy? I mention all kinds of other tables I like in my posts (Feikert, TW, ect.) were you to actually do the reading.....give me a break people. Let the record state, since some apparently feel I only like one company - some favorite turntables are Dobbins the Beat, Artisan F 301, Porter sp10's, TW Raven, Feickert Woodpecker and RedPoint. Tonearms SME and Fidelity Research are two I think are tops also. Now, Mosin and Jweiss, if you want to call me a shill, then please get it right and call me a shill for all the above mentioned turntables this time. And why on earth either of you would care SO much about one members opinion is beyond me. J

Don't know who Jeremy is, but it's pretty obvious he is shilling for Artisan.

I often get emails when Artisan releases a new "product" to the effect that- "do you know this guy is ripping off your designs?" I consider imitation a sincere form of flattery, so I really don't care, but here are some things you should know:

Slate is not sterile or neutral, it is an ideal material for making a plinth. Take a look over at Lenco Heaven- half the DIY projects there are slate. Perhaps all the Lenco guys prefer "sterile" sound?

Two of the best tonearm makers in the world, Frank Schroeder and Thomas Schick both use 301's personally, and both use OMA slate plinths for their 301's.

Furthermore, neither Schroeder nor Schick, nor myself, use a "fully restored" 301. The idea that you have to do a frame off Pebble Beach level restoration to get the most out of a 301 is nonsense. Even Loricraft did not do that, when they were still selling refurbished decks. Many companies are doing it now because sourcing cosmetically acceptable 301's has become so difficult and expensive. So its easier to find beater decks and repaint them, and then you have to do a complete restoration.

Finally, why do you think all of the wooden plinths are so massive looking? They have to be that large to get the necessary mass to run an idler like the 301 quietly. Slate is far more massive, a heavier, better damped material than any wood product, but companies like Artisan cannot copy what OMA does, because they don't have a $300,000 five axis Flow Waterjet and they don't have the slate, nor the ability to put an appropriate finish on a stone plinth. Which is why their 301 systems may look like OMA's, but it ends there. Remember, an OMA slate plinth, double layer, weighs over 100 lbs.

Jonathan Weiss
OMA

It seems that Artisan Fidelity is being unduly promoted here. It has been said that the promoter is an employee. Could be. By the way, the owner of Artisan Fidelity has been banned from another site I frequent for self-promotion. Like here, those posts were blatant.

Of course, everyone who makes a product likes to see it in the forefront, and the temptation to promote it certainly exists. However, it is a different matter altogether when such promotion primarily consists of denigrating the work of others. That tells me that maybe the emperor has no clothes, or at least the product being promoted cannot stand on its own. A truly good product can talk about itself only, or even mention worthy competitors in a favorable light.

I'm late to this thread but wanted to stick up for the fit and finish--and sound quality--of Jean Nantais's work, and to tip my hat to the sound of restored idlers. I see that Jeremy72 has been largely discredited as a shill for AF but I want to set the record straight on Jean's current offerings.

I have a Reference Lenco by Jean, his TOL restoration. The 105 lb plinth is sheathed in solid Santos mahogany, including the top and armboards. Everything about the woodwork is first class, from its tight joints and rounded edges to its hand-rubbed finish. Despite the size, I find it beautiful, as does my wife. The flame and grain in the mahogany has a subtle 3D effect and lovely reddish color, which deepens with age.

I am equally happy with the sound, which has terrific drive, rhythmic grip, coherence, and detail retrieval. A high-grade stethoscope to the armboards (it has two) reveals virtual silence, something I could not say of my Michell Orbe SE or Clearaudio Innovation Wood, both of which are very fine turntables. But I prefer the Lenco. The noise floor is extremely low and the speed, as measured with a KAB strobe, holds precisely when adjusted--easily as well as the Clearaudio, which boasts a highly-advanced, optical speed control circuit, and far better than the Orbe with a Pabst AC motor. I haven't heard any of the slate-plinth restorations, which might be better yet, but I haven't found my plinth to introduce noticeable coloration.

Next week I take delivery of a Brinkmann Oasis and I'm eager to hear how the Lenco stacks up against a quality contemporary direct drive 'table. So far, I'm finding the well-restored idlers to be hard to beat.

Setting T65C VTA

I found a very easy way to adjust the HK T65C tonearm height/VTA using a deck of cards as shims. I could not believe the impact it had on the Grado Sonata1 cartridge. Night and Day.

I was able to find a spot just to the left of the tonearm to slip in some playing cards to support the tonearm assembly. After loosening the rear spindle height set screw, I could raise or lower the tonearm height by varying the number of cards (shims). In my case, 10 playing cards was ideal. Any more, the sound became sibilant, any less and the sound became muddy. By varying the number of cards, I was able to tune the VTA by ear.
My headshell was also slightly twisted counterclockwise upsetting the asimuth. As the T65C's tonearm lacks an easy way to adjust the azimuth, I used a thin paper shim between the right side of the cartridge body and headshell to align it properly.
I recently upgraded my phono stage and power amplifier and haven't been enjoying vinyl as much as I had hoped. I didn't realize how sensitive the Sonata was with regard to it's setup.

HiFigi-
One other thing occurred to me. How high off the plinth does your platter sit and is it level? The platter and tonearm move as one assembly and if they sit too high the counterweight will hit the dustcover when the needle is dropped, especially if the spindle is set high.
My platter height is close to the plinth and the spindle is barely raised to make the front of the cartridge perpendicular to a 180gm record.
As much as I enjoy the T65C, the tonearm lacks a precise way to adjust VTA and Azimuth, something I will look for in future tonearms. The Sonata has been very sensitive to mis-adjustment, more than I expected.
Rich

I had to fiddle with the VTA by loosening the allen set screw recessed at the rear of the tonearm base. The Sonata is a little tall so I had to raise the rear up slightly. Fortunately, the wood body can be used to square up the cartridge. I had to shim the cartridge to headshell to adjust the azimuth, again using the wood body as reference to perpendicular.
Have you noticed any difference using the lateral balance weight? I just bought a Jolida JD9 and it's been revealing my setup flaws.

FYI, I was able to adjust the tracking force and correct the problem. The Ito tonearm has a sub-counterweight that screws into the rear of the tonearm. It is only supposed to be used if needed (for heavier cartridges).
I also learned that, if this Ito tonearm is resistant to movement, it id probably the vertical adjustment, not the tonearm's bearing.
Once I adjusted the tracking force and tonearm height, I learned how great this turntable is!
Before we set it up, my audio dealer (who used to own one of these H/K T-65C turntables) thought I would need to spend $1500 on a new table, like the traveller, to outperform the T-65C, but once we got it properly set up, he said I would need to spend at least $2500 on a new table to get better results. I am would be very happy with this TT if I bought it for $1200, but am estatic to have found one for $300.
I have learned a lot about setting up this table, so if anyone needs help with any of the H/K T series tables, let me know.

Have you checked out the Q-ing device? It may be bent. If the Q is preventing the LP from sitting down on the outermost groove, it can usually be re-adjusted (or in this case, straightened, if bent). Most have a set screw of some kind that permits height adjustment, altho I have zero knowledge of your specific TT/tonearm.

Hi,
Before I get to my question, I just wanted to say that although my name is also Dave and my username is HiFiGi, there is no connection to HiFiGuy.

Coincidentally, I also have a Harman Kardon T-65C with a grado Statement Sonata (but a I not a II) and wondered if you had any challenges with tracking force. I cannot get the cartridge to drop down far emough on the outer edge of the record. It sounds great and tracks well from the middle of the record to the label, but not on the outer edge.

I believe I may have a dry or damaged tonearm bearing, but before I try to repair it, I wanted to see if you (or anyone else) has ever corrected this type of issue with a turntable.

Thanks,
Dave

Ah yes, the NVS. I wonder what's up with that product. Definitely the Honda Superbike to the cherry hot-rodded Harley that is an AF Garrard/Lenco. I have the same predilections as you. The price differential is huge.

Lewm, I agree and my apologies also for any misunderstandings in regards to my earlier post. I'll admit that at first I was under the impression that you were indeed offended by expensive products but I was obviously mistaken. If you refer to any of my other posts regarding modifiers of vintage decks, I always give respect and credit to these enthusiasts which undertake such things, including the other well known members within the community ie. Porter, Dobins, ect. (refer to my older posts). Not everyone will ever agree on everything in this hobby but that is just the nature of things. So much is subjective, like everything else in life - not everything is for everyone - as they say. I just appreciate the extensive work these outfits do and with all the seasoned audiophiles out there using vintage modified decks, I think they do deserve serious consideration to those in the market for a new analog front end. Something else that is neat about these decks imo is they don't look like modern decks (mostly) which gives them some added appeal. To me, its like comparing a cherry hot rodded Harley D. motorcycle to a new Honda sportbike, both totally different machines for totally different enthusiasts but both are worthy of respect. In addition to some of the vintage decks, I also am a fan of modern tables, such as the Redpoint audio, Feikert Woodpecker and the incredible looking and big $$$ NVS direct drive but these appeal to me in a different way than the others and I openly admit a bias toward some of the modded vintage idler drives and direct drives but thats a personal opinion of course. By the way, sorry to disappoint theory conspirators posting above but I am not employed by any hifi outfit and was never a member of a lenco hi end audio site but am a member of DIY audio and recommend it btw, great site. Forums are really something, don't ever mistake the gossip on these sites for gospel....lol Good listening to you, J.

Rahman: "Needless to say, Jeremy72/Chris74 was subsequently banned from that site."

Hmm... well, well, well... Thanks for the info!

_______

To be banned from LH is definitely not easy ..wow

Rahman, Thanks for the info. I nevertheless did not mean to "diss" the AF plinths; that would be grossly unfair since I have never heard an AF Lenco or Garrard. I only meant to point out that their physical beauty is built into their cost.

Don't feel too bad, Lewm.

If the username's anything to go by, then Jeremy72 is not a neutral enthusiast but, rather, an employee of Artisan Audio. Indeed, based on the investigations on another site (Lenco Heaven) where a "jeremy72" was also active (in promoting the artisan fidelity lenco), it was discovered that he was already registered as Chris74, the owner of Artisan. Needless to say, Jeremy72/Chris74 was subsequently banned from that site.

Anyways, back on topic, I think the 301 is a wonderful machine and, with respect to Thuchan (and Heiner Jacobi from whom Thuchan gets the mini cooper comment), i find that the 301 (suitably serviced, plinthed and armed) can sit comfortably next to an EMT (930st in my case). Of course, at this point you're not really comparing motor unit with motor unit but, rather, one TT system with another.

Dear Jeremy, If you will take the time to re-read my post that seems to have offended you, you will see that I am not guilty of having said some of the things you impute to me. As for the rest, I apologize to anyone who was offended. I am not one of those guys who hates expensive products just because they are expensive. I am sure that AF does a lot of R&D to create their products. But note that others who also do extensive R&D come up with different builds and materials as optimum. Hence, there must be more than one path to plinth Nirvana. I was additionally trying to say that if one cannot afford an expensive plinth, one can still get to enjoy a Lenco turntable in a plinth of one's own making. Actually I am kind of in awe of AF, because I realize that they are up against a lot of resistance from die-hards like me, and yet they carry on. I admire that.

The above mentioned Chris is Chris Thornton from Artisan Fidelity.

Here is a testimonial. Audiogon's feedback does not allow for enuf. I was lucky enough to find a Garrad 301 at a decent price and after researching and speaking with many restoration experts I choose Chris. I could not be happier with this decision. Of course, the most important part of the restoration is the sound of my turntable. I can say that listening to my favorite recordings now is like hearing them for the first time. Everything sounds as if it should and the soundstage places everything where it should be. The second part of the restoration is the communication of the process. Chris was very attentive and provided updates both verbally and through emails, including photos, along the way. His service went beyond what I expected even for the cost of the restoration. The third part is the craftsmanship of the the piece. Suffice it to say that my listening room WAS a spare bedroom. When my wife saw the finished product she suggested that I move everything to our living room making Chris' creating to focal point. Thank you Chris for everything.

"However, I really do not think that they have a bunch of physicists working for them"

Neither do any of the other modifiers of Lenco or Garrard for that matter.

I somehow seriously doubt the majority of diy folks could build anything like the Artisan Fidelity 301 or Dobbins plinths in their home work shops, these guys are pros imo. And I really don't think you have any idea of the amount of design work and time that goes into an Artisan F turntable construct. If you spoke with them directly as I have, you would know exactly what I am talking about regard their research and development process. I can assure you there is nothing quick and easy about it. This outfit is really serious about their work. When I spoke directly with Chris, he explained part of the process involved prototyping the many different plinth materials for their Lenco and Garrard's and I was quite impressed to say the least. If you had any idea of how many different materials they use to achieve the proper tuning in their cld plinth construction you would be shocked.

Rccc, congrats, you picked up on one of the many "facts" posted in this thread.
Here are a few more...

**The wheel ... and be of proper diameter to DRIVE the inside face of the platter properly. **

**the 301 LOVES mass**

How many more can you find?

"Lastly, NEVER touch-up the platter - especially an early one! Whether grey or black those bare platters have a resonance to them (like a bell) and repainting will kill it!"
Just curios, why would a resonating platter be desirable? Is there a resonant frequency that makes it sound better?

The AF products look beautiful, no doubt about it. Beauty is what they are selling and rightfully so. However, I really do not think that they have a bunch of physicists working for them who scientifically calculated the design of the plinth so as to maximize the performance of the Garrard or Lenco. I think it is much more likely that they are following after information that was/is made available to them mostly via the internet, that provides guidelines for how to construct a decent plinth. (See Lenco Heaven, for example.) Of course, that same information is available to any and all of us, as well. Much of it came from Jean Nantais and others and was freely given on the various chat sites. My point is that if one is strapped for cash but skilled in wood and metalworking (and/or knows a good water-jet guy), terrific plinths can be made for a fraction of the cost of an AF plinth, plinths that equal in performance what can be bought for high cost from companies that make plinths (not to single out AF; I too love their work). Such plinths usually will not look as good, however.

Jhendrixfan,
Be careful with the Kokomo bearing with the ceramic ball. There have been numerous accounts of the ceramic ball wearing a dimple into the thrust surface of the Garrard spindle. Apparently it doesn't take much time, either. You would be better off using a ball that's softer than the bearing spindle so you don't damage that expensive part.

Jeremy: Now that is a gorgeous table. Proportionally very nice.

Talk about a serious Garrard 301, they just launched a new reference model 301 at Artisan Fidelity I emailed Christopher about the design features, am eagerly awaiting his answer :) I am totally drooling over this table about now...price has yet to be announced. I know this one has a buyer already unfortunately...that is one lucky guy.

http://www.artisanfidelity.com/Garrard-301-.html

WOW - that's one helluva nice friend to give you a grease bearing 301!

Nope...not yet.

3009 is an OK start but preferably a Type II.
I do not know much about the type V on up.
All depends on the cartridge that you want to mate it with.

Ironically my listening room was damaged (water incursion)by the torrential rains of Hurricane Irene.
Fortunately no equipment was damaged at all but the carpet, walls, etc. got badly damaged. Still working on finding people to fix it up (to better than it was).
I run all tube equipment into stacked QUAD ESL57s with IMF/KEF subs.
Sad to have my system down right now with the Holidays and all - so enjoy yours when you can.

Merry Christmas! :^)

Jhendrixfan
The 301 was totally free! Of course I couldn't pass it up. I'll start out with the SME3009 (non improved) for now and match a cartridge accordingly when the time comes. There is no rush here. Thanks for the pointers.
PS-did you get the new Winterland Set?

Thanks. Like everything in life it is a matter of time, money and effort. I fiddled with 301's to my heart's delight and ultimately moved on (TW Acustic Baby Raven). Why?
Because the 301 appears simple but is actually quite complex and needs a BIG investment to reach its full potential - even when doing the work yourself.
Plus in the end I realized that I love music and not "fiddling" around all that much. I wanted to spend my time listening instead of constantly feeling like I was "auditioning" my turntable set-up.
Enjoy! :)

IMHO, the biggest "trick" is the idler wheel. If nothing else - buy a new one one from the guy in the U.K. ($100?).
The lower/bottom main bearing replacement made by Kokomo in Germany is another "most bang for the buck" upgrade as well.
301/401 idler wheels are quite intense from an engineering & manufacturing standpoint BUT they are rubber and they ALL outgas, shrink and harden with age. So unless they spent all their time in a cold place (dry ice, liguid Nitrogen, etc.) then they are are bad after 50+ years. Yes they may still run & have no flat spots but believe me the property of the material has changed significantly.
So why the controversy?
Well it is the idler wheel bearing that causes the confusion when changing idler wheels. So sometimes a new wheel needs to be burnished to fit an old bearing. Not a biggie but it is important to do it. The wheel must spin very freely and be of proper diameter to DRIVE the inside face of the platter properly. That is where the PRAT is at!
As for Plinths - old adage is very true. First separate/isolate the tonearm from the deck (most designs do not do this!) and heavier is better (the 301 base plate itself is VERY light!
Lastly, NEVER touch-up the platter - especially an early one! Whether grey or black those bare platters have a resonance to them (like a bell) and repainting will kill it! Do NOT paint them, add copper, etc. etc.. Nor do you need clamps or spindle weights!
MATS - get the Loricraft neoprene/cork strobe cut-out mat.
It is the absolute best - bar none! The original mat is BLAH! Nice to look at but not great sound. The neoprene cork is terrific and the the hole for the garrard strobe disk has a "pull down" effect on the record towards the spindle. I simply used some two-sided plastic tape in a few spots to keep it positioned on the platter.

Oh, one last thing...301 LOVES mass (no not the Catholic type! although... Gregorian chants by Enigma 1990("turn off the lights...") do sound very good on it!). By that I mean medium-heavy mass tonearm/lower compliance cartridges. So a modern example would be a Schick tonearm with a Denon DL-103R cartridge. Older example would be an ESL or FR-66 with an SPU cartridge.
I'm presuming that your friend GAVE you the turntable?
Or you purchased it from them?
Either way it is a very nice & worthwhile piece of vintage HiFi.

"If you are more of a consumer and music lover (listener) and want something that once it is set up properly just works and works there are far better turntables made nowadays."

Which ones are those? I ask as a user of a 301 which "just works and works".

regards, Dave

Jhendrixfan,
First off, I like your username. Surprisingly, the 301 is in excellent shape considering it's age. No dust to speak of, the only problems were the hardened grease and cracked original mat. Didn't see any other problems such as spindle run-out even when measured with dial indicator. I couldn't even measure a flat spot on the idler using that method but planned on replacing it anyway due to it's age. The mat will also be replaced. I'll check the other spindles for run-out when I devote myself to the project again and replace as I see fit. Electrically, the arrestor seemed fine, but honestly I haven't checked it with a meter yet. Otherwise, this thing's a cherry.
Jeremy..Really? I'm not some guy with a hacksaw and drill press. I've been woodworking and cabinet making for over 20 years and don't generally compromise or cut corners. I really do measure twice and cut once and quit at the first sign of fatigue. The key to woodworking is patience. I planned on measuring for the resonant frequencies of each assembly as well to tune the plinth. I wouldn't think of damaging such a finely engineered instrument by modifying it having trust and respect for the designer's choices. Interestingly, the 301 was provided with plans for a plinth, so I guess they thought it was possible for a guy in his garage to pull it off.
My original post was whether or not it was worth it. In automotive terms, I would liken it to a Corvette Stingray that needs a new set of tires and a good once over. I realize now of course it's worth it. In my experience, owners usually make the best restorers, viewing their projects as labors of love. I don't really want anybody else messing with "my baby".
Will the final product be "The Best", who knows? Can someone else do it better? Why not? Every "pro" I've met is in it for the money, just because they charge an arm and a leg doesn't make their work any better than another individual with skills. In my experience, owners can do the best work and know their stuff inside and out, if they take the time.

HiFiGuy (Dave)
I just saw your post last night, sorry I haven't paid attention. I think you need to fashion the weight on the string for your anti-skate if you already haven't. Otherwise, I don't know how you can set the anti-skate. If you need to know the particulars, let me know, I'm a pharmacist with access to accurate scales, so I can weigh mine and measure the length. I also have an SME tonearm that uses a similar setup, I can check to see if the parts are interchangeable or similar. SME parts are available over the net.
The lateral balance is in my opinion not as critical as the anti-skate. Imagine the shaft of your tonearm as the fuselage of a plane and the cartridge as an engine on one wing. The lateral weight balances the tonearm like putting the weight of another engine on the opposite wing.
I have read the pros and cons of anti-skate, some people don't use it at all so I think you can still operate your tonearm safely. I personally believe in using anti-skate so I would recommend making or purchasing a weight.
The lateral weight is a nice idea but even Harmon Kardon was vague about calibrating it in the manual. I also have a T60 with a tonearm by ito that lacks the lateral weight. It plays fine.
Between the two tables however, I definitely prefer the sound of the T65C, so maybe there's something to those 2 weights, maybe it's something else. Good luck and let me know if you need the measurements. Rich

Wow! I didn't realize this thread was still active. First, it is a creme colored, greased bearing, schedule 1a unit with a black platter in excellent shape. Really excellent, so it didn't need much work other than cleaning the dried grease and re-lubricating the bearing and linkages. I think I will go with white lithium grease for the bearing or possibly gun grease as the lower viscosity seems to be a benefit. It came to me plug and play with a vintage Garrard tonearm and Shure cartridge mounted on a homemade (weren't they all) plinth of 1/2" pine. Actually not a bad job.
It seems I will be making 2 plinths for this 301 and use the SME 3009 tonearm (non improved) I already have. I will see which plinth sounds better and possibly sell the other.
This plinth project is on hold for the winter as my outdoor woodshop isn't well heated and I prefer the warm weather.
The sides and tops of each plinth have been glued up and cut to dimension and only need to be joined. The delay is that I hate to cut dovetails while shivering. So for the winter, I will enjoy my HK T65C while I refurbish a vintage Dynakit ST-70.
First plinth is made of glued up 2" solid red oak. No plywood veneers for me. Weighs a ton and I may also load any void spaces within with more oak. Not sure if this is overkill, time will tell. Joinery will be glue and biscuit butt joints throughout.
Second plinth is the artsy one, glued up 1x curly maple with different patterns and colors to resemble inlay work. Left and right sides of the carcase will be half-blind dovetailed to the front and rear boards, while the entire carcase will be half-blind dovetailed to the top. The goal here is to use no mechanical fasteners other than the dovetail joints and glue to assemble.
Slate, marble or other similar materials were never considered as I believe they have a greater potential to ring and resonate.
From a resonance standpoint, the solid oak plinth should be superior. Although maple wood is a little "livelier" than oak when tapped by my fingers, we'll just have to see how it sounds.
Initial listening tests of the 301 on it's original pine base were encouraging. Barely any rumble or friction noises from either the plinth or cast chassis of the 301 listening with a stethoscope. Strobe test also looks good and steady, another pleasant surprise.
My next biggest decision will be how to stain and finish the final product to maximize it's character for the most visual "pop". A minor study will probably be necessary to research and determine the best way to mount the chassis and Tonearm to the plinth as well as providing isolation from the assembly's "environment".
Of course, a mock up version will also be constructed out of "off the shelf" materials till practice makes perfect.
Measure twice, cut once.
So yeah, it looks like a go, I mean, how can I pass up this opportunity. My plan is to keep 2 turntables, my dilemma is where to put them and keep the cats from messing with the anti-slate weights.
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, I appreciate the input. Sorry I didn't check back earlier.

Agreed with JHendrixfan to keep it to the pro restoration companies like Artisan Fidelity (thornton), Dobbinss ect, ect.. to get the most out of these vintage decks. I heard a modded Lenco in a big modern system before and it was just incredible and spectacular but it was also modded and plinthed by a pro who clearly understood what to do with the thing to make it sound that way. People think sometimes you can head to your garage, take your hacksaw, drillpress, sandpaper and whatever and do what the top restoration mod companies do but they are totally wrong. It would be like saying that since I can fiddle with a Chevy LS1 small block V8 that I can do what Lingenfelter does with Corvette, which is ridiculous..you guys get the idea.

Like everything...It is worth whatever someone ELSE is willing to pay for it! :)
I've owned, worked on, and know intimate details of the Garrard 301 first hand.

First step: determine exactly what you have from your friend's Grandfather.
First versions, and most desirable (aka fetch high $$$), are the grey "Schedule 1" classics. These had a plain grey platter (no strobe).
Second versions were creme colored and had a strobe platter.
In general, the grey versions have a grease main bearing and the creme colored ones have the later oil main bearing. There are some transition creme ones that have a grease main bearing and some creme ones have a plain black colored platter instead of the strobe platter.

Yes, the original wheels after 40-60 years are shot.
It's the laws of materials so do not let anyone convince you otherwise about old idler wheels. Buying a new one from the U.K. is not too bad and a worthwhile investment.
Especially if it gets the table running properly again.

IMHO at this point, get the deck running properly and sell it - especially if it is a grey one. In any case it is best to not modify, re-paint, restore, etc. any of it in any way. Leave it as orginal as you can and have it running properly. First and foremost you are presumably HELPING your friend. So UNLESS you simply love vintage stuff, enjoy tinkering with your turntable endlessly and have a "reference level" sound system. If you are more of a consumer and music lover (listener) and want something that once it is set up properly just works and works there are far better turntables made nowadays.

Now before some folks go bombastic and say WTF ...Yes, the old Garrard, Lenco, and EMT/Thorens tables have their place but they have their limits and require SUBSTANTIAL upgrade investment. Remember that they were built during a certain period of available technology and engineering. Plus their are no original warranties and service support is rather sketchy depending on where you live (and how much you like packing your turntable up and shipping it!).

Basically the older turntables require a great deal of money and proper knowledge to get the most out of them.
These are not really turntables to be fiddled with by novices or intermediates - either technically or financially. However they do produce some tasty results.
OTOH...when all is paid for, restored, modified, installed and done...do you REALLY have a vintage turntable any longer? eh....probably not.

So I say Keep It Simple and help your friend sell their Grandfather's turntable and have some extra cash in the New Year. If you need ANY free advice, insight etc. I would be delighted to provide it.

Happy Holidays!

Hifi in general is subjective and comes down to personal preference. I personally felt the Slate plinths with the Lenco were cold and sterile, lacking tonality and emotion. I can see why you would want your turntable to be as neutral as possible, it makes sense. One thing is for sure, this is not a "one size fits all" hobby....ymmv as they say

In contradistinction to Jeremy's observation, I went from a Jean Nantais wood plinth using a stock Lenco chassis to a Lenco in slate cum PTP top plate, and I think the latter is somewhat superior sounding in every way. It is more neutral to my ears. One can always add flavoring via one's choice of tonearm, cartridge, phono stage. I prefer my tt to be as neutral as possible.

I do believe that mass matters in certain designs, and I also agree that proportion counts for a lot. I suppose it comes down to how the best case scenario is accomplished.

A high mass plinth can be designed, so that its visual features are attractive by leading the viewer's eyes in a desired direction while achieving the result needed to meet the physical requirements of mass. It is a daunting task to do both, however. That's why you see so many clunky turntables out there, in my opinion. Then again, look hard enough and you will find some very pretty ones.