FUSES, Finally!?

The truth is folks, fuses in general, are bad for sound. They limit current, and are a band aid for the purpose of the protection of gear. This is the fact. As theaudiotweak pointed out with transformers, they produce mechanical vibration ( and other things ). Take any amplifier design, and isolate the power transformer ( s ) from the chassis ( cork and rubber, a simple mouse pad ) can do wonders. I use sheets of Dynamat, if I have the room within the chassis, and it is incredible the cleanliness of the sound, with this one tweak. Of course, I dampen the entire chassis, including those horrible heat sinks, which ring like hell ( they all do ). Everything makes for sonic improvements, as I have done for myself, and many others. Doing and listening, is the only way to know. And back in the day, when components did not have IEC inlets, I replaced the cords ( soldered ) to better, heavier gauge cords by the big cable manufacturers ( Belden, Southwire, as examples ), and incredible sonic improvements, every time. If anyone opens their gear ( inclusive of fuse replacement ), I recommend to be careful, and hope you know what you are doing. I take zero responsibility ( if anything bad or dangerous is to happen ) for recommending these things to anyone who wants to tackle them. I have nothing more to say, at this point, on the fuse topic. Enjoy, and be well.

Like I said, I bite my tongue and move on. 

Fuses do NOT contribute to the sound in any way AT ALL.  They will keep your insurance company happy however.

Do not believe the superhumans on this thread who claim they can hear a difference.

For courtesy to the believers, I have tested them many times.  Not even the most sophisticated measuring equipment saw any difference.

Just keep the fuse contacts clean (otherwise, it generates heat, and still does NOT make any difference to the sound) and spend your money elsewhere.

There is only resistance, capacitance & inductance in everything electronic.  There is no other magic.

What I find funny, is there is a lot of truth on both sides of this silly argument.

A simple fuse pull and reverse the direction after 20 or so turn ons.
IF you can hear a difference, chances are a fuse change will change the sound, (FOR YOU). If you don’t save your money. Clean the fuse pocket, check for any ARCING and replace the holder if there is.

I found the same thing with power supplies. The physical mounting and dampening of a chassis, night and day. The quality of the power supply. I found that PS that have WAY to much in the way of filter caps are a SUPER pain in the rear. For surge cold starts.. I had one pair of mono blocks that were tough to start. After you threw the power switch you, lifted the knife edge bypass, the fuse was all that was left in the circuit.

Once started, NEVER had a problem.. They were modified and built by a guy named James Bongiorno. Gas M Giant (mighty not mono block, he would say). Those things had a circuit breaker in them too. I had 1 pair of 4 or 6 ever made. 40 years ago maybe.. I don’t think they ever saw production.. Pimp Daddy.. That’s what they use to call the dude.. Good on the keyboard. Jazz fella.

So I have seen a fuse make a difference in power amps for valves, more so than SS. Chassis dampening, I use a Cary V12r. That is one of the quietest chassis I’ve EVER used.. Almost like pot metal it’s so thick..DEAD quiet.. High temp, med soft silicone mounts for the transformers.

The Cary likes SR orange or blues. My Mark L.. they could give a hoot.. My Brain 565s, they could give a hoot, Nord NC500 with stock fuse holders, they could give a hoot. My Macs MC225-275.. LOVE SR fuses...My C2500 could give a hoot.. My MX120, loves ONE fuse the rest inside could give a hoot...(4 total). My Sony ES SACDs LOVE SR fuses. Most of the TT stuff, they don’t, that’s right "Give a hoot" The RtR I haven’t listened. BUT I bet it makes very little difference, GREAT PS and the IC just serviced..

SO THERE.... The Hoots and Hoot nots. You all need to learn to "Ponder" just a bit.

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Mr cakyol, Do not believe the superhumans?

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I do believe in being respectful, and understanding others can do things better than me.. Paying attention to detail. Being able to run faster, type faster, talk faster, listen BETTER or have better hearing, in spite of what I can or cannot hear.. I still respect the fact others are BETTER... I guess that is tough for some folks to hear... They can’t hear the difference.. I’m glad when some one can.. My heart doctor in particular.. :-) GOOD set of ears on that guy...

Regards

audio2system  Thanks to all for replies.  The only reason I am considering fuses, is that Paul from PS Audio, suddenly came out with his take, and supposed surprise, that they sounded better.  Of course, that might just be part of his sales pitch, since he mentions using them now in his amps,etc.  If hey are not in the audio path, I am totally skeptical again, especially for my old amps with chip-regulated power supplies. Only one chip per channel, and all it does is meter the electrons from the transformer to the great big filter caps.

ritamacaw  Maybe we should tout a gooey, flexible liquid to pour into the amps to damp them.  We can give a lifetime warranty that we can remove it, if needed, and then file bankruptcy.

nonoise  I was afraid someone would take this in the wrong way.  Now we know.  My only point it that certain things point toward a master status as far as image and beliefs.  I could have used a rose tattoo, but I did not know what that signified.   Maybe a peace symbol would have worked as well, but that is not thrust violently around us like Nazi-Racists fighting to overtake the government, making that a really good example for me.  Of course, a zizzag rolling papers tattoo would have worked, had I thought of it.

lalitk  It is called break-in.  You have to listen until you block out the bad stuff and  hear the good stuff.  This includes all break-in, as far as I am concerned.  Our ears and brain adjust.  I have two very good systems.  It used to take me a bit to hear accept the lesser system, but I had owned if for many decades.  After years of comparison, I now know what to expect in advance, and do not get critical over either system.  I even accept XM radios flaws, because, it breaks in, too!  Especially after I learned what to expect.  Now those electronics take no time to sound good enough to listen to my jazz station.  They break in so fast now that we are friends. 

danvignau, understood and appreciated.

All the best,
Nonoise

Silicone potting compound. Goes in liquid, dries to a nice rubbery consistency. I would expect someone has used it for home audio. Some rubbery urethane compounds as well.

Maybe we should tout a gooey, flexible liquid to pour into the amps to damp them.

What gave me the rubbery amp filler idea was my 1969 500 Kawasaki triple, the first bike with an electronic ignition.  That beast really vibrated, so it was filled with tar looking goo.

A lot of better quality laptop power supplies are filled with silicone potting.  It gets the heat out, keeps the parts in place, and gets rid of acoustic noise.

Tar used to be really popular, but not stuff I work with. I understand it is still used because it is cheap and works well.

If money is an issue on ebay in the UK they have some decent ones for around $25 each.

danvignau, 
?
I never mentioned anything about amp dampening. 

This thread could put just enough doubt in a sucker with deep pockets, to spend $200 on a fuse, just to check if there is a difference.

Do audiophile fuse companies let us try them at home before we buy? Any fuse shills here, who will send me a couple to test out? ;)

love the directional fuse guys the best, because it is akin to wearing putting a swastika tattoo: It lets people know where you stand. As I have noted before, electricity from our wall outlets, interconnects, speaker cables, as well as sound WAVES from our speakers, does not flow like water; it "vibrates" back and forth".   If AC wires, including audio cables, were truly directional, they would restrict half of their functionality







Energy flows from the power source to the load, so your understanding is only partially correct.

Fuses do NOT contribute to the sound in any way AT ALL.

Okay. Wire does not contribute to the sound in any way AT ALL. I guess. If you say so.  

Just one question: Then what does?

if you use a power conditioner/surge protector could you just remove the fuses?

ttocs12699 posts01-22-2021 6:42pmif you use a power conditioner/surge protector could you just remove the fuses?

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NO.. Fire protection, and equipement protection first.. You can get in trouble if you’re not careful.. Usually there is a 2-5 amp slow blow to get a valve amp going and a .5 -1.5 quick blow, for a tube failure..

LOL I’ve bypassed fuses and really seen an improvement too. It usually had to do with low impedance loads like 1-2 ohm loads and BASS drivers.. Me pushing amps for all I could get, before big class Ds..

Regards

Can always rely on a fuse thread for some entertainment. WOW guys really?

If you don’t believe fuses can make a difference, great you have eliminated the issue and can move on. That is, PLEASE MOVE ON. Why waste your time belittling others when you know it’s impossible for a fuse to improve the sound.

I have posted this challenge before. It’s FREE: Swap direction of a stock fuse and listen. If you hear no change count yourself lucky and walk away. If you do hear change then try some good quality returnable fuses. Do they make a difference? - - of course they do, everything makes a difference.

For a reference, temporarily replace a fuse with a clean copper tube and listen to the sound then find the fuse that sounds most like no fuse. I am running my power amp with bypassed fuse which sounds better than any fuse I have tried. It’s staying that way.

@oldhvymec, I like your amps. Jim Bongiorno was one of audio’s greats. I still own one of his Son of Ampzilla designs that blew up at a party 20 years ago after somebody spilled the whole bowl of punch over it. I kept the chassis and rebuilt it with a Neurochrome kit. This is the amp I am running fuseless.

I suppose I should add: Don’t try this at home.

lemonhaze  Is that as good as purple haze?  Seriously, why do people here argue about things they "KNOW" to be true?  How anal is that?  I personally would never bypass fuses.  It is asking for trouble.  Otherwise, your answer is great. I will return to my argument concerning power cords, as it relate to fuses:  What kind of a crappy designer would spend thousands, or more, designing an amp and use crap fuses and power cords that diminish the sound of his accomplishment?  Is he so certain of his design flaws that he wants to hide his accomplishment? 

Purple Haze, was LSD of old.. Hee hee. YUP... Now it is a variety from the "Haze Brothers" and "Super sativas". These were and are REAL things..

As for the fuse bypass.. I’ve never had a problem.. BUT I do take precautions. NO I don’t recommend it, I’ll keep my sonic nuggets to myself...

SS is tough enough to make sound right, without fighting a stupid fuse and a power cord. Talking about James B.. He welded his PC in.. he wanted you to use HIS PC.. Welded, is what they state, not solder a # 12 cable.. Why only a # 12?.. YUP, there is a reason for that too.. It is a certain length too..WHY? All part of the PS design. Smart dude.. Liked Single malt Scotch too.. :-)

Regards

To fuse or not to fuse....well I did it, I dipped my audio toe into the fuse pool. Just bought the QSA Light Blue at a mere $71. What could I lose? I know, $71 bucks. So I was going to be the voice of reason. I slipped it in the slot and fired my Raven Audio Nighthawk/Blackhawk modified. I immediately heard an improvement. Placebo? The presentation is calmer, more together, and at times attention grabbing realism. The sound stage seems quieter, deeper, and the tone seems to have more gravitas. My wife said it seems the background is quieter. Then she stayed up an extra hour listening. That rarely ever happens. How? Why? No idea....just better...get one, tell me you hear no improvement. I'll believe you. (I'm very impressionable) (Send back if a worthless experiment)

Hi allears4u: Now that's what I call "real science". Nice post. Good listening.

I know SR fuses were on sale a month or so ago. Buy 2, get 1 free.

You get 30 days to try them out and if you don't hear a difference, you can return them (as long as you don't blown them).

All I can say is......I tried a couple of SR Orange fuses in my system (1 in the amp, 1 in the preamp), and was blown away by the difference in sound.

In my instance, the preamp fuse change made the most difference.
The amp fuse change DID make a difference, but it was much more subtle.

     Wow! no wonder some of you need better fuses, with one per piece of electronics.  How is that even possible?  One per channel would seem to be a minimum, which I hope you actually mean.  My amps have 4 each, two per isolated channel, for a mere 125 wpc each.  (250 wpc @ 4 ohms; 400 wpc  @ 2 ohms). 
     With a fuse on each side of each low side circuit (i.e. 2 per channel), and each channel designed with 4 x 26,000 mf of filter capacitance, it seems there should be much less stress per fuse.  Also, there is one computer chip per channel, which regulates each channel's power supply (500 watt transformer and 4 x 26,000 filter caps per channel).  This must stress the 110 volt circuit much less than cheap systems that allow all the current to rush in at once, and especially those that are designed to have the outputs work hard to suck the power from a small power supply, rather than just throttle the signal from a big one. I know this regulation system works, because when I had a 15 amp circuit breaker (Now 30), we tested it by using a power strip to turn on three amps at once (potential 4500 watts at turn on without regulation).  The breaker did not trip.   er. Two (unregulated) Audire Model 2's, or two Phase Linear 400's did. 
     FYI, house breakers trip at a continuous 75% of their rating, so a 15 amp one blows around 11 amps.  My pair of old  (Unregulated) Audire Model 2's drew up to 1500 watts each at turn on, or 3000/110 volts equals 27 instantaneous amps.  This must be hard on cheap fuses.  Since each amp had one fuse, I could see how a really good one could help?      
     My main amps run much cooler than my Bryston, or Phase Linear, or my ancient Audire Model 2's.  In fact, in a test, the upper amp Bryston heated up the amp below it, even with a 2 inch riser between them.   
     This large and regulated power supply system showed no discernible improvement when we tested it with shorted fuse blocks, rather than the standard fuses.  The Bryston; maybe. Model 2 and Phase Linear: YES!  They improved somewhat... maybe?
     Does that sound reasonable to you engineers?  Can your super fuses actually pass current better than a straight wire? 
     If so, please explain;  otherwise, please google "Vleblen Effect" or "HYDROX (vs OREO) Effect".  or "Veblen Diamonds Ferrari". 

house breakers trip at a continuous 75% of their rating, so a 15 amp one blows around 11 amps.  


Isn't it actually 80% and 12 amps continuous?

Thank You for the correction.  I had meant to look that up before posting, and forgot.

I had even previously posted that 15 and 20 amp breakers trip at 12 and 16 amps, but my approaching senility won out.

+1 @allears4u 

Same here. I just installed a QSA blue. I’m quite surprised by the improvement in sound. 

cerberus79
A few months ago I purchased a used pair of speakers from another Agon member.
To my surprise all the fuses were Orange fuses. I listened to them and then to satisfy my curiosity I replaced them with ordinary buss fuses and could not hear a difference.
I did this test with a bunch of friends and neither I or them could hear a difference. Kind of just says it all doesn't it?

To those non technical thinking of purchasing these $$$ fuses. Just save your $150+ and do this instead.

A fuse:
1: two end caps
2: short piece of fuse wire connecting the two end caps through a glass tube (that’s all she wrote).

To those "non technical" members that are interested in "maybe" wasting their money, do not listen to the non-technical, listen to the technicians of this industry that design the audio products you have and listen to. AND YOU WON"T SEE THEM ON THREADS LIKE THIS AGREEING WITH WHAT SAID HERE ABOUT THE SOUND IMPROVMENT DETAILS AND AC FUSE PLACEMENT DIRECTION, EVER!!!
Just clean and tighten your fuse holder and re-new your fuse (if old) with a good quality 50cent Bussman, Littlefuse or similar.As with "many switch-on surges" they do deteriorate, bend, stretch and get crusty with electrolysis formations on their fusible wire elements before they give out, as these pics show of a fuse wire element ageing over time show. https://ibb.co/9NbTwqK (even the $$$ boutique ones will age just as much also)

Cheers George