Funny how streaming/digital still chases that analog benchmark.
Funny how manufacturers of streaming and digital gear continues to chase that elusive analog sound. I thought digital was better?
Before you all get your panties in a wad I enjoy both Digital and Analog but much rather listen to an analog source than digital.
So today I see Innuos Introduces The PhoenixNET – A Network Switch For Audiophiles @ only $3500.00
Guess I do not see the point you can get superior sound for say $2500 or less with a decent turntable cartridge combo and phono stage. Hell Clear Audio has an all in one for $2500.
Here is a question for the case bled masses here. Let’s say that in 1970 you bought Tapestry by Carole King and listened to it on your then decent system, say a Dual 1229 turntable, high efficiency speakers, McIntosh tube amplifier and preamp.
How much different would that sound from today listening via streaming using a 10k system? FWIW I used to record all my albums immediately on R2R back in the day and keep the vinyl as reference in order to re-record if the tape degraded from a pristine record.
@teknorob23 yep you are right another nonsense thread, yet here you are. And you will click on the next thread on the same subject in 2 weeks. It is like seeing a car crash on the highway, you see the lights flashing of the emergency services, the twisted metal and people standing on the side of the road, and you slow down to get a better look. Why?
Funny how a medium that has been around the longest, since 1877.... is the best. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_recording#:~:text=Inventor%20Emile%20Berliner%20created%20the.... It is the standard to beat for a reason, it just plain sounds right. Digital is ok...just not as good. It is great for when I just don’t care to fuss much over the sound and just want some music playing. However, when I feel like sitting and concentrating on the music, it is analog Lp’s, tape. If you digital devotees really want to get pissed, go read what Tom writes over at better records concerning the sound of cd's/digital vs lp's lol!
I’m sorry but really??? Another nonsense thread about digital vs analogue.. “don’t get me wrong some of my best friends are digital, but it’s just not natural, not what god intended, etc etc repeat, repeat... anyone who doesn’t see it my way is a fool and on, and on...
If the fear of being left behind and something causes you so much discomfort or stress, then why not look away, do something else?? Rather than post pointless antagonistic nonsense.
I’m quite new to Audiogon and on the whole I’ve found it an education and thoroughly enjoyable hearing from people who know more than me on many subjects, but I’m finding the recent string of “people who stream are idiots” threads authored by frightened Luddites is really exhausting.
Hifi and music and the enjoyment of both has for me at least, been kept exciting for the last 30 years by new an innovative forms of both arriving in regular intervals. New tech developed on the margins of electronics like hifi, largely by passionate enthusiasts with a vocation, never arrives perfectly formed. It takes time to perfect and those of us who are interested in the new who like to support it and enjoy the possibilities it creates, are no more idiots for doing so than the man who spends thousands on old bits of glass resurrected from the radios of 1940s Russian submarines with which to populate his electronics of choice. It’s all a choice, if it brings you closer to your music or gives you pleasure in any other way, I say crack on and if it’s not your thing or you find change upsetting or unsettling just do something else.
sorry for the rambling rant, but like the author of this thread I just couldn’t help myself.
Of course a digital stream is a replica of the original master. The musicians record to digital or a master is, there is a mix, and the mix is streamed. And then some want to use a vinyl storage medium. So the mix needs to be cut, with a machine cutting a replica of the signal. Then the replica cut has to be turned into a metal replica of the replica cut. Then the metal replica has to be replicated into many replica stampers. Then the replica stampers - getting older and worse every stamp - produce a replica vinyl. Then your needle vibrates in an approximation of this latest replica of the replica of the replica of the replica of the original sounds. But wait! where has all the bass gone? Oh, it’s not there! It has to be replicated in the phono stages. I love it when old folks say digital is not the “real music” when they spend years and £10000s arsing about changing their sound with different belts, arms, platters, cartridges, phono stages, buying multiple copies to get a better pressing, etc. You can’t have it both ways.
Digital advocates are more honest, perhaps. Vinyl advocates should just admit it - they are chasing the memory of sound they grew up with, and their ageing ears prefer it because back then technical limitations meant the compromises favoured a range of frequencies which are the only ones these guys can still hear anyway. It’s why mid-range crooners and instruments are so popular with vinyl audiophiles.
Let’s keep both, one for background every day music, workouts, cars, work, new music discoveries and music surfing, lazy listening..... another one for listening of favorite music in no rush, paired with glass of Blue Label, critical approach and best emotions. Mig-29 is history now. SU-57 is new really.
@cakyol.....I've been listening to the over 9000 lp's dufus's got rid of for pennies in the eighties on a a kick ass system...
Don't use the crap about digital recording like your the only one who knows.... I am very aware.....my ears...my ears....my ears...Did it sink in....want to make sure you heard it...in digital some of the information is dropped... Oh. .but you must be one of those special people that can't hear it.....or won't. ...or thinks it's still natural sounding..... The fact vinyl has been recorded digitally such as Dire Straights as an early example means sfa to the fact digital is still trying to be analog..... I don't have to ask an engineer. ..your making assumptions. .. Perhaps you should ask the engineer if he wants it to sound digital....just what is he attempting to do in his manipulation of those bits... Another assumption on your part....the vintage of the vast majority of lp's I own...and why.. .. I use tubes in my pre...phono...and amp too...care to make more assumptions about those choices too...
People outside of this very small group of "audiophiles" cannot care less for analog sound.
Yep. Yer right. Most listen to mp3's and have no clue about bitrate or codecs, etc. Cheap & convenient is what they want. Digital does fulfill that. Still doesn't change the fact that digital is and always has been chasing analog
@cakyol
Only the nostalgic oldies are chasing the old analog sound. People living in the 21st century are not
Indeed, and among those "
nostalgic oldies " is a 40 yr old named Digital. FWIW, many of us sold or got rid of our albums for the new improved perfect sound forever. We wanted to believe it was better because it was so convenient & new. Then in the 90's someone pulled out their albums and listened to it and began to question whether the digital format was really better. Then slowly we began to realize it really wasn't. My 20 yr old Dual rivaled my $2300 CDP. I bought many VG+-NM albums for ten cents apiece. Hardly ever paid more than $1. Fortunately I have 4K albums so I don't need anymore. But if what you say is true, WHY aren't the albums still $1 apiece? No, they start at $20. $8-10 is the lowest prices I've seen for used VG+. That is usually not the popular ones. They sell for $15 in 2021 & have for 4-5 yrs now.
All that said, I still ordered a Streamer/Dac today. The reason is convenience. At this age I can foresee a day that may come sooner than I like which I will need the convenience of digital. And I still have & play my CDP because some good music never was cut on vinyl. And sometimes, I like the convenience. .
Why is MC calling people perverts when MC himself has no ears or a decent system that he can actually hear a difference in SQ between sources? IMO, digital has left vinyl behind years ago. With hi res, dsd, MQA, and with the newer better dacs out there, digital has gotten much better. There is no “reference” tt setup for $2500. A decent cartridge costs more than that. A good tonearm is $3000 minimum, and the tt itself is more. You can get a music hall tt with a grado mm cartridge using a built in phono preamp that will play records which will cost $1000-$1500, but it’s not going to sound that good, been there, done that. I also had a very nice tt setup that cost more tan a Toyota Corolla and still prefer digital.It’s also true that a good sounding dac is going to cost around $7000 and up.
The standard has, for decades now, been digital. 17-year-olds do not even know what you are talking about."
.............
That’s hilarious. Kind of proves the point that analog is the standard digital attempts to copy.... flattery as its known..... But here is reality....most 17 year olds don’t know wt_ they are talking about let alone understand any of us.... head down face in the phone with ear buds on.....yeah ok..... Digital has come a very long way, seriously. However.....when a piece of vinyl hits it apex in playback. ..digital is still just trying to be that.... Why not just enjoy the choice and accept reality. One has been trying to sound like the other since the very early eighties..... Its funny ..... the argument that oh I can access a kajillion songs streaming.....but if a guy owns over 9000 lp’s. ..the same wet blankets say you could never listen to them all.... it would take years... Just accept it....our human ears are tuned analog....its natural ...... I’m thankful for all playback options....but R2R and vinyl are what came before digital. Digital that’s spent 40 years trying to imitate what tape and vinyl already can playback.... I get it ...vinyl is more work and gotten even more expensive. ...so I can see why some dont want to or have the funds it can cost even with just the lp’s cost... The rest well...just too lazy to put the cheezies down....😉 All kidding aside, accept the part that R2R / vinyl are the standards all digital looks to be... Chill out....make it about the music.... whatever the format.
But in my living room it Has2be vinyl or R2R even the tuna gets time in while cooking..... Digital in the car, on the bike, on the trails.... To me it’s "best feature" is its portability......
I have never listened to lossless digital audio files, it seems to me once they are converted to audible sound of human vocals and instruments the medium returns to analog format...there for your listening to the dac vs recording...
How much better is it vs Pandora, which sounds pretty good through xfininity 1 box to my receiver...quick response from the receiver-very distinct lows and miss, the piano sounds like it’s in my room and drum sticks hits on the kettle and snare are a thud...and I have access to music I have been denied by recording studios on vinyl..let’s face it, it doesn’t matter what or how we listen..for me, I love my vinyl, it has a different more tangible sound than digital, you tend to hear more of how it was recorded and with digital it’s more cold sterile and super accurate...the best car analogy is a Ferrari vs Tesla S...the Ferrari allows you to experience so much more of the sounds and texture of the music, the Tesla is like the linearity, it’s quiet, you know it’s on by looking at the lights when the accelerator is engaged you get the high pitch wind and go quickly without fuss as the computer processes the information as it has been told..we all have preferences..I had no point just an analysis of digital and analog domains...no back to my listening to free internet radio.. my next analysis will be FM vs AM-why Bluetooth matters.. I miss FM radio rock stations
Only the nostalgic oldies are chasing the old analog sound. People living in the 21st century are not.
I have converted to digital and never looked back. I do have an old Linn Sondek but I like its LOOKS more than its sound. It is never able to come up to the dynamics and clarity of the digital sound.
The clean, crisp and noise free sound and the ease of use of digital will beat 99% analogs hands down these days. Maybe not the ones costing over $50k or $60k, but then again, 99% of the people cannot afford that and it is irrelevant.
Veggie burger is fine. Of course, I remove tomato.
I came across a number of children over the years, but those inflatable devices were not popular when I was growing up. We had to learn how to swim independently by the age of 4, or so.
Guess you don’t have kids? Water wings are inflatable flotation devices that kids slip over their arms AKA floaties. My kids are all grown but we may have some in the pool house ( shed that holds all the pool junk)
Thanks for invitation, but I do not eat meat. I will have to check what water wings are.
EDIT: Thanks to the Internet, I figured out what water wings are. No need for them. I am yet to meet a wading pool I cannot stand in. Yours does not seem to be unusually deep.
"Funny thing is that nearly every review I read on DACS, etc is how close they sound to analog."
Could it be because people writing reviews are different crowd/demographics than most of the music listeners out there? They want what they decided it should be, not necessarily what is "better". People outside of this very small group of "audiophiles" cannot care less for analog sound.
Joke all you want, you know it's true, the standard is analog. Digital is for when you just don't care that much that it sucks.
I think you ruffled feathers with that one. Funny thing is that nearly every review I read on DACS, etc is how close they sound to analog. The same happened earlier when CD's were all the rage. They touted how close to the analog sound the CDP came Actually @skypunk is right on target. You don't have to like the truth but disagreement with it makes you wrong.
Why does everything need to be polarized. Why do we have to pick one or the other. Most of us can afford to have both digital and analog sources. Wouldn't you rather have 2 lovers than one?
Is this a digitally remastered copy of the original digital vs. analog argument or just a re-issue of the original analog vs. digital argument? I can’t tell the difference.
The bees versus the spiders all over again. But at least that argument was done in style. I stand on the digital side btw. Though I do like a good tuna fish sandwich every now and then
BTW F22’s are built here in Ft Worth too and I work on the v22 project in Amarillo with Bell. Helped them set a couple of speed records for AC Type. Real engineering and tribology.
Ah yes, the media wars. I have a pal thats a media hoarder. He buys vinyl, CD, SACD and is signed up to a couple streaming services and also has a large digital library. He complains about gaps in streaming catalogs as a reason why he buys obscure SACDs and CDs. To each his own. I have a vinyl and streaming rig and that's about it. He brings over an SACD player and a hard drive and we can kill a day comparing the nuances of the same song on 4 different medias, sometimes we start swapping DACs to get really neurotic. Its a lot of fun but man that's a lot of variables to sort through to make a sound conclusion, especially with scotch and bourbon involved. Bottom line in my book is, if you limit yourself to one source (who cares which one) you are missing out on something.
Matter of fact my team builds all the bearings in the landing gear of you F22 and the high speed bearings for the turbines. Boing is one of our OE Aerospace accounts. We also made all the bearings for both Mars rovers and the booms on the ISS.
So if you want to talk “real world stuff” I am all in.
BTW Aerospace is in the tank and I am heading up a team in renewables next Wind and Solar.
My St Louis office was about 20 yards from where most every F/A-18 made before the E/F/G....and about 2 miles from the new factory, know lots of F18 drivers and more ( F-22 etc... ), i can think of very very few who with stupid bravado would go up against an SU-27 at moronic 18;1 odds.....
You should be able to learn something ( from your “ grenade “ post, read about Red Flag....even the highly vaunted F-22 has limits and vulnerability..... )
will your ego allow you to learn ????? ps i ran the Boeing F-22 wing aft fuselage factory production and other fun real world stuff......
Everyone hears differently. We build a DHT DAC and a excellent phono stage. Our DAC typically sounds better than most TT set-ups we compare it to. I love to see the expression on a persons face when there analog set-up just does not sound as good as our DAC. BUT even when we use a JC Penny TT ( we think CE made them back in the day), the sound beats our DAC every time.
The statement was that "the standard is analog", it was not about quality (which gets debated ad nauseam anyways). Prevailing standard has been digital for a while. What is better is another topic.
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