Flatscreen between speakers

Other than having a flat screen between your fronts, instead of diffusion panels, I am not aware of any other compromises.

Each system runs completely independent, with the exception of the fronts & front amp via HT pass through. I have an SQL sub for 2 channel and a SPL sub for HT.

Any compromises were more around what I was willing to spend. And I love to watch sports while streaming Qobuz. 

@spenav  Been operating a shop in the roaring fork valley for 33 years. Lots of people have woodworking as a hobby for good reason.   Something about creating things is very satisfying.  I feel like the same can be said about musicians and the desire to make and create music. .

@bhrapp. Certainly will. The shop looks pretty good. Obviously, you are a pro. Woodworking is my hobby, just love it. 

@shooter41 

Thanks... Looks like I will stick with OLED for the foreseeable future

Looking forward to hearing how your solution works out.   As an alternative for other users, a lift operated TV cabinet could be a good solution.  Gives you the option of leaving the tv up or down during listening sessions . The design on the the cabinet in the images should have good diffusion properties. When finished the fillets will run the full height of the cabinet. This particular cabinet is to house a 75" QLED with LCR Portrait  side speakers. 

Projectors have come a long way and the ultra short throw ones are pretty intriguing, but they still can't compete with an OLED. You could probably get close if you're willing to go commercial grade (think $50K and up, plus screen). OLED is simply the best TV technology there is right now. Micro-LED will supposedly supplant it in the next couple of years. There are already some Mini-LED's that can come close to the OLED experience. I have both technologies in my home and while I adore the OLED, the Mini-LED often makes me do a double-take because the picture is so incredible.

@devinplombier. Have you considered that a projector requires a dark room?

@spenav 

You are correct, of course; but I only ever watch tv in a dark room so I didn’t even think about it.

I wonder whether there are projectors available today whose image quality can rival OLED panels’ in a dark room?

@barts. My speakers (Raidho td1.2) is about 44" from the wall.and I sit about 10’ from the speakers so it’s near field listening. I can only play with them a couple of inches back and forth due to room constraints. My TV (65" Plasma) hangs on the wall. I really should not be complaining because everything seems to be working well. My belief, however, is that that big slab of glass cannot be beneficial and I am trying to find a way to tame it. I don’t want to throw money at it (no fun in that) so I am looking for an elegant and relatively cheap solution. I suspect that it is affecting my soundstage height after an experiment I conducted with a couple of towels. Thanks for chiming in.

@devinplombier. Have you considered that a projector requires a dark room? A google search brought this: "A 4K projector is the superior choice if you want a large screen and immersive experience in a dark room. 2. For casual viewers or bright room settings: A 4K TV is likely the better pick for its consistent performance and ease of use."

Haven't seen anyone ask how far your speakers are from the back wall (TV)?

Is it easy to pull them out a few feet to minimize the reflection off the TV?

Did see someone mention TVs over fireplaces.  That to me is absolutely the worst design choice imaginable in any home design (apologies to those who have no choice for whatever reason).

Regards,

barts

I have a LG OLED whose picture quality is absolutely gorgeous, but the sight of that huge ugly black rectangle is appalling when it's turned off.

I haven't looked at projectors in a few years and I wonder how they compare to OLED panels nowadays. Anyone has experience?

@dayglow. Good news: your first statement is universally accepted by audiophiles the world over. Your second one is more problematic. Why would we be so ignorant as to inflict issues on ourselves? Well, I am glad you asked. Let me try with my particular set of circumstances. I had four kids so most rooms in my house were bedrooms or common used family rooms. While the kids are gone (two of them are with the Lord), our house is always a revolving doors for family visiting. I would be lying to you if I were to tell you that some days I don’t really miss having my own mancave, but when considering everything, I consider myself lucky that I can put my speakers aside when the grandkids are in town. In a couple of years, I will be moving again as the wife will retire, I will then do my best to have that room. So you see, not all of us are idiots, easily fooled by dishonest dealers and Rhinestones Cowboys. I am sure most of these guys are facing similar circumstances. Thanks for your input. 
 

@ghdprentice. Good to know that you have tried that already. That will save me some time. 

OP,

Good to have picked cotton. I use a very densely woven wool carpet (See my virtual system). It weighs at least twenty or thirty pounds. It is highly absorbent and dense. Over the years I have experimented a lot. A couple inches thickness of cotton towels and blankets or couch cushion can simulate something better... to give you the feel. But then either a made for the purpose material is needed or something like what I am using. 

As Audiophiles or music lovers are goal for most is to eliminate acoustical issues in our listening room. Adding a TV screen is a self inflicted issue. Yes, many band-aid corrections could alleviate some issues but why put the elephant in the room. I put most of the blame on audio dealers pushing more products/sales and convincing some it's the ultimate set up, the best of both worlds when the truth is a watered down version of music reproduction. Youtube even has a "Rhinestone Cowboy" that pushes HT integration and a $30k filtering device that IMO is a very poor value proposition. The choice is simple."less is more" when regarding HEA.

@ghdprentice. Good catch. I did pick the cotton and black. I intend to pad the front with some absorbing material (old towels?) if the first try is not too convincing. 

Ha…

OP,

What material did you choose for the "dust cover". The photo looks like vinyl, but it seems to come in many materials. I don't think vinyl will be much better than the naked tv. It needs to be absorbent for most speakers. Some ribbon speakers are much more tolerant of reflections. 

@shooter41 

What an arrogant response. "Where it belongs" is your opinion, not a fact.

Agreed - I was hoping for a sensible response!

An idea I've had but never tried is to get a large piece of thin, clear plexiglass to bend in a curve and put in front of the TV. It'd degrade the image very slightly but also act as a polycylindrical diffuser. 

A big flat surface between your speakers produces an early reflection free zone. This can be good or bad. The reason it could be bad is that too few early reflections can color the sound and skew the imaging worse than more but weaker early reflections. The TV isn't diffusive, so it becomes an early reflection dead zone, making it more important to deal with early reflections from the floor, ceiling, and side walls using combinations of diffusion and absorption. There will be sounds directly from the speaker bouncing off the screen at an angle and then heading toward the opposite side wall, and then bouncing back toward you. Treating those sidewall locations as well as other early reflection points may improve the imaging. 

One thing I do is mount my TV higher than my seated eye position, and then angle the screen down so that it's squared up with my angle of vision toward the center of the screen. I'm not sure what this does in terms of sound quality, but at least it eliminates the parallel surface problem between the screen and the wall behind me. 

@ticat 

"My experience is My Experience. The List includes (but is not limited to) HT and HiFi “things” I have learned to no longer waste time, effort and/or resources on…

Low efficiency speakers, low impedance speakers, subwoofers, encode/decode protocols, extraneous wiring, room reflection issues (proper room treatment is of Primary Importance), screen reflection, multi speaker radiation interaction, digital glare, inadequate digital “sound processing “… I could go on but to what point?

My experience had lead me to organize my audio systems thusly…I have my HT system in the living room (where it belongs) and the 2 channel in a dedicated room (where it belongs). High efficiency, Large Full Range speakers, custom electronics (almost exclusively hand assembled), science guided room treatments and as few wires and connections as possible."

What an arrogant response. "Where it belongs" is your opinion, not a fact.

Hope it works out...let is know

I have ordered this one on @macg19 recommendation. When I receive it, I will take some measurements and conduct some listening test. I will let you all know if it was worth it. It was cheaper than some other recommendations, like the home theatre curtain by @avanti1960, although they do look better, classier and maybe more functional. I was working on a budget though and didn't want to break the bank, given that the problem is not that big. Stay tune. 

I have a TV as well and was considering these diffusion panels from GR Research.  They are lightweight and could figure a way to easily attach and remove them from the TV with some simple brackets.  At $225 for 4 - 24" x 24" panels seems pretty reasonable.

https://gr-research.com/product/diffusion-panels/

@ spenav OP

Understood. Alex/WTA

@mihorn. I think something is getting lost in translation. Please read my response again. I said I have DIFFICULTY understanding them and you said: exactly. For the record, you are proposing a solution for a problem that I don’t have. My system sounds very natural. Thanks. 

@richardbrand 

“Could you please list where you see the incompatibilities?”

My experience is My Experience. The List includes (but is not limited to) HT and HiFi “things” I have learned to no longer waste time, effort and/or resources on…

Low efficiency speakers, low impedance speakers, subwoofers, encode/decode protocols, extraneous wiring, room reflection issues (proper room treatment is of Primary Importance), screen reflection, multi speaker radiation interaction, digital glare, inadequate digital “sound processing “… I could go on but to what point?

My experience had lead me to organize my audio systems thusly…I have my HT system in the living room (where it belongs) and the 2 channel in a dedicated room (where it belongs). High efficiency, Large Full Range speakers, custom electronics (almost exclusively hand assembled), science guided room treatments and as few wires and connections as possible. 

spenav OP

@mihorn.  I am not sure your point about natural sound in the video. Sometimes my wife and my daughter try to talk to me at the same time and I have difficulty understanding them. Is one of them NOT a natural sound? 

     Exactly. We can enjoy many natural sounds at same time without much effort. Ex. Women chat with friends and enjoy the live music in the live band cafe. However, to listen the un-natural sound (like the left speaker in the comparison video), we must change something in our body (ears, eyes, and brain). Each time we hear un-natural sound to natural sound, vice versa, we must change the hearing mode. And it’s hard for brain and bad for health.

     My system is natural sound and I am always in natural sound mode. And I don't like listen un-natural sound system like before. I can still change to un-natural sound mode, but I don’t like do it because it is very uncomfortable action (like spit my eyes out and widen my eyes to suck into between 2 speakers). It’s called the immersive sound. I must listen un-natural sounds some times but I feel like un-natural sound sucks out my life.  Alex/Wavetouch

shooter41

richardbrand

I understand how your processors and you SOLVE the lack of a center channel speaker.

IF possible, try a small center channel rather than skipping it, that is my advice to anyone following. 

After so many years of prioritizing and enjoying excellent 2 channel imaging in my dedicated listening system, and many years of improving TV sound, (starting with old CRTs I hot wired decent speakers to, the fidelity was always there), I am very sensitive to sound that is erroneously off-center of a visual image, especially dialog meant to be centered, or off-center dialog not originating from the correct location.

A common issue is a TV above a fireplace, no center speaker. My wife and sister-in-law house/pet sit for many wealthy people, and I check out the home theaters of many of them. I shake my head at the poor sound so many have.

My Small 5.1 Home Theater

I am left handed and sit on the left end of the sofa (some but not far off center), near my end table, coffee warmer, coaster, kleenex, box of remotes, left side wall ....

Donna, right handed, is at the right end, her coffee warmer ... no right wall. No one normally sits, or needs to sit dead center in my setup due to two factors

1. DBX Soundfield 100 Cross Pattern Dispersion is designed to create a WIDE phantom center image of any 2 channel material (I often 'force' 2 channel),

Toe-In Alternates

and

2. using a Center Channel Speaker (even a small one) physically anchors the center to the center of the image no matter where you sit, because if you rely on Phantom Center, and you sit off-center, it is not going to work as well as sound ORIGINATING from the center. Off-center dialog will have some Phantom Off-Center mix by the originators, which assumes a center speaker,

I am happier with the smaller Jamo, the Klipsch was just too efficient, even after software adjustments

In my office, 2 channel, all center Phantom, I re-configured everything so I could sit dead center for the 1st time ever.

@ticat 

my experience has lead me to believe that 2 channel and HT have no business being seriously pursued in one room

Could you please list where you see the incompatibilities?

Personally, I find 2-channel severely limiting for classical music in particular, where a huge number of recordings is available on multi-channel SACD and other disc formats (Bluray, Dolby Atmos, etc).

Until recently, my main speakers were Quad ESL-2905 driven by a Krell amplifier, and supported by a big subwoofer, so quite good for 2-channel audio.  They are also quite good at providing 2 channels of a home theater system.  My main source is a universal disk transport which retrieves data from CD, SACD, DVD, Blu Ray and 3k disks, If need be, I can switch my turntable through a 2-channel Krell Pre-amp but for everything else I normally used the DACs in my Marantz AV8802 pre-processor.

IF I want to play 2-channel music, I do it through components which would satisfy me in a dedicated room though they are co-located with "home theatre".

Finally, there are awesome recordings of music performances which add yet another channel - video!  Don't want to watch?  Just shut you eyes, but you miss out on the whole experience.

A thought for those who might try a curtain over the screen, have a Roman shade made the width and height of the screen.  If there's a substantial space from the top of the screen to the ceiling, have matching panels that stay stationary and hide the hardware that lifts the curtain vertically.
If you go the distance, get a remote control for lift and fall....
Home theater like the big ones....supply your own fanfare..... ;)

To keep it in scale, no lion....a cat's long meow, or kittens...*L*
If it 'has to be' instrumental, a kazoo....😏

As far as not sharing a room, how many people have 2 dedicated rooms? I know some do but it's got to be a pretty small number. I, for one, am thrilled to have ONE dedicated room. If I just had a 2-channel system in there I would have to put the "home theater" (I hate that term) in one of my living spaces. None of mine would accommodate a 100" screen, not even close. Then there's the fact that because this system is not in a dedicated room the SQ will suffer. As I previously stated, my favorite use of my room/system is watching concert videos. I'm getting the best sound possible for this purpose in my "dual use" room.

If I had unlimited funds and could build any kind of house I wanted I "might" do 2 rooms, but I also might not. I like having the highest quality gear in my dual use room that I can afford. Having 2 rooms would be somewhat redundant, especially since a screen has become such an important component in the enjoyment of my room.

For the absolute best 2 channel listening I have a dedicated headphone system. This equipment is at least as good as the rest, probably better. HifiMan Susvara 'phones and a Holo Audio stack consisting of a May KTE DAC and a Bliss KTE amp. The SQ is sublime. Both systems share the HifiRose RS130 as a streaming source and a fairly highly modified Oppo 203 with I2S output as a physical disc source.

I've spent decades planning this room/systems and wrestling with all the decisions that are involved. Considering that most plans don't work out exactly as you'd like and some real world learning is often necessary, I've been over-the-moon with the results I've been getting. I can't afford to shuffle components at the level that many of you do (though I've definitely done quite a bit of shuffling with the HP rig over the years), so I had to get it as right as I could from the beginning.

It's hard to believe a screen it causes such issues but suppose if so you should have as many do,  a cover that deals w/ the effects ! 
problem solved ! amazing creativity ! 
got to have a C channel as part of the HT !  and the 11.2 HT uses the L and R speakers !  it actually sounds great playing music thru the HT system ALL the 11.2  speakers but if you are an old curmudgeon purist and want only 2 channels good for you ! - but you are missing out ! 
I have Vandersteen, Yamaha, Sony and the best ,by far  are unquestionably !  the vintage Allison acoustics! 
the wide sweet spots and convex cone tweeters and mids  are all enveloping and when everything is designed to reflect and  reach the boundaries equally when all the sound energy has already become difuse  it is magic as Roy allison desired! i doubt any other speaker does it as well and w/ 11.2 of them ? OMG awesome !   
ALL 40+ speakers! only until we get done refining them then we will keep the Allison 11.2 HT and move the others to other rooms and / or sell them! ( the yamaha and Sony HT are lower -mid end speakers except the Yamaha NS1000M -great for 2 channel!  The Vandersteen sound great but are a PIA to get lined up and have a narrow sweet spot and are huge taking up a LOT of room.But they made like 40- 50K of them for 40 years so used high-end is now avail for $200-800 a pair!   the model 3,2 and 1's ! 
sadly ALL  their VCCc channel series 1 up to # 5 are crap the co-axial design just does NOT work!  $3k speakers selling for $200 ! 
they have all  been sent to GR research for testing and crossover fixes! proud we can markedly improve the low end NS6490 millions of people all over third world countries have and for the price of cheap ali express crossover $5 pair ! EG can make them SO much better! ( we bought and tested a heap of cheap 3 way  x overs! $.99 to 12.00 pair !  SO many low end speakers do not even HAVE ANY  crossover !  just a couple caps to protect the mid/tweeter so ANY crossover ( almost ) is a huge step up + the cheap, scrooge like  speaker makers are running the poor things, 3 ways as full range speakers!   i call it the proletariat speaker project! LOL 

the C channel is supposed to be your BEST speaker for HT so it makes sense to use one of your L & R speakers reconfigured horizontally, and w/ the drivers re-aranged tweeter on top of mid  as a HT C channel and the woofers (2) as close together as possible either side 
does NOT make sense ! whoever said make the C channel small! NO ! and IME a 2 way is lame and insufficient as they are wont to do & all have a apparent hole where the Mid Hz  should be ! 
i also use a dedicated sub just for the C channel as there is a surprising
amount of low HZ material there ! esp TV commercials! LOL 
 

@ticat

@dayglow

+1

@ticat   +1

“And never the Twain shall meet…

my experience has lead me to believe that 2 channel and HT have no business being seriously pursued in one room. Doing so allows for too much compromise to do either side justice (unless done temporarily for experimental purposes).

@elliottnewcombjr

Don’t Skip a Center Speaker, even if it has to be small, or behind something, try one

There are very good reasons for not using a centre speaker, especially one which is in effect a horizontal d’Apolito array!  As soon as you move away from dead centre, the outer drivers create an interference effect, or comb filter.  If your main front left and front right speakers have good imaging capability, let them do what they are already good at. 

Your pre-processor should just add the centre signal to the signal for the two front speakers - my Marantz ones all do this.  My main system is configured with two main front speakers, and two rear speakers, plus four ceiling speakers and a subwoofer.

@macg19. Definitely need to explore this. Maybe that’s all that is needed. At any rate, I am going to start there, maybe add some padding to the front. Thanks. 

Fortunately I no longer have a flat screen between my speakers sharing stereo and surround sound. But when I did, I used a double-sided quilted black cover from https://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/ $110 delivered. It helped a lot and was easy to deal with. I added a few small velcro squares to tighten things up.

@elliottbnewcombjr I actually have a very nice center, I just choose not to use it. I also think you are not quite grasping what the processor does. You say center info does not appear in front L&R, which is true, but that's not where the phantom center comes from. The processor recognizes when there is center channel info available so if no physical center is present it sends that info to front L&R. It's not trying to "create what doesn't exist", it's simply re-routing that center channel signal. I can see there being some differences in how well various processors do this, however.

Also, your room is a big factor in the necessity of a physical center speaker. If you have seating that's frequently used that's off to the sides of the screen or if you have a really large room then I agree that you should probably use a physical speaker, but in my room and I'm sure in many others, you really can't sit off axis. My room is not small at 15' x 22' but with the speakers properly pulled out from the wall and the seating at the proper distance from the speakers you are close enough to them that the phantom center works quite well.

shooter41

correct, if you have no center speaker, you have to send center to FL & FR, thus the AVR needs to make it’s own psuedo-surround with phantom center,

I am simply encouraging people to try even a SMALL center, it doesn’t take much, as a matter of fact it is important to avoid too much center, 

Often my TV starts in some pseudo-surround, I don’t know who, when, where, but if I change to ’DIRECT", it may change to 2 channel and actually sound better. The Industry thinks we want ALL our speakers working all the time, like the weird stretch that makes basketball players look like football players, playing with a weird oval ball.

@elliottbnewcombjr  "I am surprised that you do not have a true center channel, when content is originally created, center dialog/content does not exist in FL and FR so Phantom Center cannot create what doesn’t exist. There is no need for Bass in the center."

Depends on your processor. Lyngdorf has the option of sending all center channel info to front L&R. Pretty sure other processors also have this capability.

+1 projection screen, you beat me to it :)

That said, 2-channel and HT should not share a system, or a room if possible. I do realize folks living in NYC apartments will have to share space, but when that's the case it’s definitely best to segregate speakers and electronics.

A projection screen or no screen if music is the top priority.

"I always have Plasma." 

I'm an outlier. 20 year old Plasma and picture still crisp as day one(probably cause it doesn't get used much) 

Not a suggestion, but my remedy is the Plasma is on a rollaway. On movie night roll it in, a couple of connections, and I have insta home theater. 

Never cared for seeing a TV in a living space when it's not being used.

.

I do have a thin foam cover over mine but I also do something else. The screen being parallel to your listening position is a big part of the problem. Mine is on a swivel and I position it on about a 30' angle so it's reflection is scattered in another direction. This reduces the vocal glare tremendously. 

I don't use the TV often so I'll sometimes forget to reorient it. But it's immediately apparent when I listen to music and when I swivel the screen it goes away. 

Pull your speakers out when listening. They should be a few feet out from your TV. So many HT (mine as well) have the speakers in-line or just in front of the TV. 

Have has great luck with heavy HT curtains, they work so well for windows, maybe put a rod above the TV, and close the curtains over the TV when not in use. They also look good. 

spenav OP

I would prove I needed to bother covering it up, it may not make much difference.

Measure Room Frequencies from Seated Ear Height Listening position(s)1st, no covering, drape a blanket over it, measure again, differences?

this CD has 29 1/3 octave test tones. (I could help you find an inexpensive copy)

Amazing Bytes Tracks 9-38

SPL Meter with tripod mounting hole (many do not have the tripod hole)

You just need answers relative to the next, not perfect calibration, these inexpensive meters work well.

@wooly_mammoth. We are collecting ideas at this time. I am not aware of anything in existence today that addresses this issue efficiently and tastefully. I will build something soon and will let the group know what I got. Apperntly, people using LCD TV either don't have this problem or experience it much less. I would not be able to tell you to what extent because I always have Plasma. A lot of good idea in the thread, you're going to have to read through it. I have tried some heavy towels and got improve sound stage height and focus to a lesser extent.

@elliottbnewcombjr. Cool! I will take a look on Ebay. Who knows, maybe that's all that is needed. Thanks.

The elegant and dedicated way to do it is to create a theater "stage" effect using thick, home theater curtains.  Similar to the included link but customized per the size you need.  May noy be directly available but with some work and you can make it look and work well.  

Looks good closed, easy to open when watching TV, the thicker curtains are acoustically damped and will work well to diffuse reflection. 

SoundRight Home Theater Surround Curtains | 4seating