Flatscreen between speakers

@newton_john. 
You are correct. My choice of words was incorrect. I hope my meaning wasn’t lost in translation. My point is that the image is not a magic trick but something that can be explained, manipulated and repeated. In other words, it’s physics not voodoo. 

Folks, the results are finally in. It took me a while, but the conclusion is undeniable. Yes, my flat screen glass, Plasma TV was definitely affecting negatively the performance of my music system.

I have so many people to think for their advice and contribution: @ghdprentice ​​@jeffbij, @bugredmachine, @erik_squires, @karlss0n, @elliottbnewcombjr, @mihorn, @shooter41, @atanarjuat99, @wooly_mammoth, @avanti1960, @mswale, @tablejockey, @richardbrand, @asvjerry, @gruvjet, @asctim, @bhrapp, @tweak1, @knownothing, @kubla36, @samoh, @newton_john.

I started in the direction of a thick cover and ordered one from Digital Deck Cover. They are not cheap at $120. I was planning on modifying it to make it more substantial. One common mistake with acoustic panel is to think that any thickness will do. And then kubla36 chimed in and showed a picture of a panel that he designed. That was actually my original idea, but I thought it would have been expensive. Turned out it just looks expensive. The material can be found at Amazon here and here. Wood working is my hobby, so I had all the tools I needed to make it happen. My design is a little different from his, but the possibilities are endless. The pictures can be seen in my Virtual System. I couldn't load that many pictures in the thread.

So how does it sound? Exquisite. Soundstage height is finally right; soundstage depth is much deeper. I will do some measurement later, but for now I need to relax and enjoy the fruits of my labor   I got to admit, it took me longer than I anticipated. Designing a mechanism to hang it on the wall in front of the TV is the most challenging. The panels construction itself was very easy. I use double sided tape to attach the 12"X 12" panels to the board and the frame construction was kept simple. The two panels system was ideal for me because I could keep them light. The whole project costs less than $200.

@baylinor 

Yes, I see it. Looks good. I will explore that route. Thanks. 

@jeffbij 

I am not sure if flat wood as a material will fare better than the screen of the TV acoustically, unless you build it as an acoustic panel with uneven and computed levels like the picture below, it can get complicated and heavy. I have contemplated it. One way would be to create 3 boards instead of one big one, say 20 inches long if your TV length is 60 inches. Then you can hang them like you hang a picture, making sure the back doesn’t touch the TV. I am still undecided as to which way to go. Let’s keep brainstorming. Thanks for the input.

N.B. I have acoustic panels on either side of the TV too (most people do).

I agree with @onhwy61.  My problem with the barn door hardware is that it would interfere with my existing panels around the flatscreen. It might work fine for @bugredmachine ​​​​@jeffbij. I am looking for something like that I can take down when not in use thus light because I don’t want the weight to be an issue. I envy you guys who have dedicated rooms. 
I tried posting a picture but it didn’t show . Sorry.

Good suggestions guys. I will put something together and let you all know how it turns out. @wsrrsw, can’t do that. The wife needs her TV. @erik_squires, yes I am considering heavy drapes and treating it as if it was a window. I will try to come up with an elegant solution that is not too expensive otherwise, where is the fun in doing it if I can just throw money at it, right? @gdaddy1, I am seriously thinking of wool but it’s very expensive but it’s healthier than other materials as far our lungs are concerned. 

@phishhhhh4, Like the sound blanket. Only holdback, I can’t see any reviews. Have you use them yourself?

@rick_n. Definitely!

@karlss0n. 4 inches seems to be a little overkill for this particular application. That’s what I use for all of my other panels. I think in this case, 2” would do the job. 
@ghdprentice. I am seriously considering wool panels but the price is kinda of stiff. So many choices, so little time 😀

@mihorn. Thanks for the feedback. However, I am not fighting any sonic irritation. I just want to push the envelope as far as it can go. In all honesty, I cannot point to any weakness in my hardware, I have addressed them already. I am not sure I understand your point about natural sound in the video. Sometimes my wife and my daughter try to talk to me at the same time and I have difficulty understanding them. Is one of them NOT a natural sound? I am actually looking for "small differences", having addressed the larger ones successfully already. Like I mentioned in my original post, I can hear differences when I cover the TV with towels. Thanks for chiming in.

@shooter41. Glad you don’t have this issue. Could it be that my TV is glass (plasma TV) and yours is LCD? I had a Lyngdorf processor and loved it. My system is like yours: a hybrid. I don’t have an extra room and let’s be honest, I like watching TV with the wife. Try this for fun and giggles, cover the TV with a couple of thick towels and put on some vocal music like Diana Krall. See if the soundstage high doesn’t improve and the image better defined. It’s nothing drastic and that’s why I want to keep this project under budget, but it’s definitely there in my setup.

@elliottbnewcombjr. Nice quilt (but the girl is prettier). Do you have a choice of the images ’cause I am into jazz.

@atanarjuat99. I used the picture as an example. I don’t actually have it. It’s from this website: 

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=acoustic%20panel&ref=auto-1&as_prefix=acoustic%20

Seems rather expensive ($36 for a 12”X12” piece) but looks great. 

@wooly_mammoth. We are collecting ideas at this time. I am not aware of anything in existence today that addresses this issue efficiently and tastefully. I will build something soon and will let the group know what I got. Apperntly, people using LCD TV either don't have this problem or experience it much less. I would not be able to tell you to what extent because I always have Plasma. A lot of good idea in the thread, you're going to have to read through it. I have tried some heavy towels and got improve sound stage height and focus to a lesser extent.

@elliottbnewcombjr. Cool! I will take a look on Ebay. Who knows, maybe that's all that is needed. Thanks.

@macg19. Definitely need to explore this. Maybe that’s all that is needed. At any rate, I am going to start there, maybe add some padding to the front. Thanks. 

@mihorn. I think something is getting lost in translation. Please read my response again. I said I have DIFFICULTY understanding them and you said: exactly. For the record, you are proposing a solution for a problem that I don’t have. My system sounds very natural. Thanks. 

I have ordered this one on @macg19 recommendation. When I receive it, I will take some measurements and conduct some listening test. I will let you all know if it was worth it. It was cheaper than some other recommendations, like the home theatre curtain by @avanti1960, although they do look better, classier and maybe more functional. I was working on a budget though and didn't want to break the bank, given that the problem is not that big. Stay tune. 

@ghdprentice. Good catch. I did pick the cotton and black. I intend to pad the front with some absorbing material (old towels?) if the first try is not too convincing. 

@dayglow. Good news: your first statement is universally accepted by audiophiles the world over. Your second one is more problematic. Why would we be so ignorant as to inflict issues on ourselves? Well, I am glad you asked. Let me try with my particular set of circumstances. I had four kids so most rooms in my house were bedrooms or common used family rooms. While the kids are gone (two of them are with the Lord), our house is always a revolving doors for family visiting. I would be lying to you if I were to tell you that some days I don’t really miss having my own mancave, but when considering everything, I consider myself lucky that I can put my speakers aside when the grandkids are in town. In a couple of years, I will be moving again as the wife will retire, I will then do my best to have that room. So you see, not all of us are idiots, easily fooled by dishonest dealers and Rhinestones Cowboys. I am sure most of these guys are facing similar circumstances. Thanks for your input. 
 

@ghdprentice. Good to know that you have tried that already. That will save me some time. 

@barts. My speakers (Raidho td1.2) is about 44" from the wall.and I sit about 10’ from the speakers so it’s near field listening. I can only play with them a couple of inches back and forth due to room constraints. My TV (65" Plasma) hangs on the wall. I really should not be complaining because everything seems to be working well. My belief, however, is that that big slab of glass cannot be beneficial and I am trying to find a way to tame it. I don’t want to throw money at it (no fun in that) so I am looking for an elegant and relatively cheap solution. I suspect that it is affecting my soundstage height after an experiment I conducted with a couple of towels. Thanks for chiming in.

@devinplombier. Have you considered that a projector requires a dark room? A google search brought this: "A 4K projector is the superior choice if you want a large screen and immersive experience in a dark room. 2. For casual viewers or bright room settings: A 4K TV is likely the better pick for its consistent performance and ease of use."

@bhrapp. Certainly will. The shop looks pretty good. Obviously, you are a pro. Woodworking is my hobby, just love it. 

@knownothing. Well, you’re better off than I 😄. I see that you have your own room. Your system looks pretty nice. I would think that your soundstage depth be ok since your speakers were designed to be wall mounted. Don’t be afraid of using DSP to make things better. The technology is quite mature nowadays. Your cover looks quite cool. I was shooting for something similar but all I could find was black cotton. I plan on putting a thick backing to the front to improve the acoustics. I bought some cotton batting and some medium-loft batting (cheaper at Hobby Lobby) yesterday and will put them together as soon as I receive the cover (taking way too long). I will give my honest opinion as soon as I get that project going. If that doesn’t work as expected, I will put something more substantive together and share the blueprint with the group. I appreciate your input. 

@rjinaz86323. Putting absorbing panels on the side wall might help. Where to put them is the question: you will need a helper and a small mirror. While sitting in your listening position, have the helper slide the mirror along the wall until you can see the tweeter on your speaker. That will the general area where the panel needs to be located. Look up first reflection online if you need more information. 

@kubla36. Great panel, that was my original plan except that I was thinking of splitting it into three panels to make it even easier to handle. I wasn’t aware that these existed on amazon. Yours looks really good. I might combine both designs, we will see. Thanks. 

@richardbrand. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. My personal opinion is that stereophonic was designed to be sufficient for the reproduction of live music. By definition 
“Stereophonic sound, commonly shortened to stereo, is a method of sound reproduction that recreates a multi-directional, 3-dimensional audible perspective”

When done correctly, two speakers can put you right in the venue where the performance is recorded. If you listen to Charles Mingus, Miles Davis and most recordings from that era, you will realize that the weakness in the reproduction chain is the album itself or more precisely, the recording. Take two CDs of the same performance, one from Japan and the other from the USA and you will quickly realize that a lot can be missed from the same performance. If you’re not familiar with BACCH DSP, do a quick search and see how Dr Choueiri was able to restore a lot of that magic back. The problem with multichannel is that it requires a much higher expenditure in money and space. Stereo on the other hand seems simple and clever. 

@richardbrand. You and I both have a hybrid system. I have a 9.4.4 Dolby setup.  As for the definition, check here. That’s what the patent for Stereo Phonic Sound System calls for. I would encourage you to read it. The idea that stereo systems are supposed to be flat is misleading. When done right, the musicians are placed in time and space very realistically. It can be spooky at times. Of course, the recording itself must be done right. People sometimes refer to it as speakers disappearing: it’s not magic, it’s by design.

@richardbrand.

I am not sure I get your point. Which part of the definition you disagree with? (“Stereophonic sound, commonly shortened to stereo, is a method of sound reproduction that recreates a multi-directional, 3-dimensional audible perspective”). I listen to my stereo every day and that's exactly what it does (multidirectional and 3-dimensional). The better the recording, the stronger the effect, it was designed by the inventor of the format to do exactly that. By the way, the number of drivers in the speaker has nothing to do with the effect. The single driver Audience 1+1 does it as well as any speaker system.

By the way, when I listen to stereo, my center channel (single Audience 1+1) speaker does nothing.

@richardbrand.

Your first sentence is correct. When audiophiles talk about stereo, they are strictly referring to the two front channels. Yes, stereo has not evolved over time. The format was invented and patented by an inventor. My best stereo recordings are from the 50’s and 60’s. Stereo is not in your gear, it is in your recording. I am using two mono amplifiers to play stereo and if something is wrong with them, I use two channels of my multichannel home theater amplifier. The term has been used loosely for the most part. 
Stereo is an illusion just like seeing your image in a mirror is an illusion. There is not two you in the room but the image is real. It is however happening in the optical domain just like a phantom stereo center image happens in the acoustical domain. It’s not a mind trick per se, it’s real but in the acoustical domain. 
I intuitively feel that the big glass surface of my plasma TV is affecting the sound of my stereo system. I should be able to assess this objectively in a couple of days. It’s in the acoustic domain and I don’t have the tools to measure it accurately. Stay tuned. 
 

@signaforce. 
Funny, that’s what I have now currently. It’s not doing a lot but seems to be better than nothing. I am very close to something (2 days tops). I will tag you when I get it up. Thanks. 

@richardbrand. I am a veteran of multichannel. I have plenty of concert DVDs, my favorite being Hell Freezes Over from The Eagles. That’s the reason I have an AVR instead of a preamp. The reason two channels are sufficient for music is because at a live performance, the sound is coming from the front. There are no musicians on the side or in the back or on the ceiling. These are necessary for movies but kind of unnatural for music. I am not saying it can’t be done. My AVR can do Auro 3D and Dolby Atmos music. I prefer stereo though. There is a reason the format has been around so long and is so successful. It is simple and clever. When done right, it really takes you there. Enjoy the music. 

@rtacconi. Everything has its negatives. Projectors require that you watch in the dark only, they are still much more expensive than a comparable flatscreen. It you have a home theater dedicated room, then by all means…

I see. It’s worth considering. They also seem to be affordable. 

A few observations that I made since using this panel:

I would still use it if don’t have a TV anymore between my speakers. 
It is doing much more than removing the glare or whatever the glass was adding to the equation. 
It can be configured with a combination of absorption and diffusion to resolve particular issues in different situations. Mine has very few absorbing tiles (3).
It probably would look better using white tiles. The black tiles look kind of austere for lack of a better word. But that’s probably a matter of taste. 

@tony1954. You might have to build whatever you want. Set your design parameters then solve them one by one. Mine were that the gadget be light, not expensive, functional and elegant. I have achieved all of them to varying degrees. Some were even exceeded. Like I said, you might have to create it yourself. Good luck. 

@classicalpiano. That’s really cool. It’s called short throw projector. I learned something new today. That would have been my first choice if I didn’t already own a very good flat screen TV (maybe my last now). Thanks for sharing with us.