It means nothing more than distortion you can live with.
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You will get a slew of answers to the effect that it depends upon measurements. But, that doesn't guarantee an amp will sound good. It's been known forever that tube amps typically have more distortion, but many love the tonality despite them being less clean. One man's "clean" amp will be another's "sterile" amp. Expect many recommendations of favorites purportedly clean amps. This, as well as any other parameter of sound quality, is on a spectrum - a wide spectrum of performance. Just compare a few and go with your favorite. |
Clean is a subjective term. What is a “clean” house? No house is perfectly clean. It’s just a matter of how much dirt one tolerates. With amps it’s distortion, not dirt. All amps have some. Can you hear it? If not it sounds clean. Also all amps produce more distortion when they have to work harder so as the distortion goes up they become less “clean” sounding. At some point they all run out of juice and clip. That’s when things really start to become a mess. Hope that helps. |
Disconnect the pre-amp and keep the amp connected to the speakers. turn the amp on. Any noise? no? That is one level of clean. If there is noise, then the amp or the outlet voltage (or both) is definitely not clean now connect the pre-amp to the amp, turn them on. Noise? No. Raise the volume on the pre-amp. noise? then something is not clean. there really should be no noise at full volume with no signal. some tube pre-amps do have noise and high volume. Play some well recorded music. first, there should be zero noise through the system with no signal. When you play music, it should sound accurate. musical instruments should sound like real musical instruments. If it sounds distorted or off, then it isn't clean. if there is noise, then it isn't clean. However, in listening to music, it may be not only the amp, but the other components that are contributing to the unclean sound. A low levels, it should be "clean" accurate reproduction of the signal. you should be able to hear and distinguish the music very well, even at low levels. At higher volumes, it should remain "clean" and accurate and sound off. enjoy |
Clean power coming from an amplifier ,comes first from the electrical grid of the house.... Then it is of no avail to bought the best amplifier in the world without cleaning the electrical grid.... Costly solutions exist, but low cost one also.... When the power that comes from the grid is cleaner, a better instrumental timbre and a better imaging result naturally from the conveying signals... Instead of thinking about how to embed their amplifier or any other gear, most think to buy a ready made solution... But there exist NO electronic component that is by itself the ready made solution to the complex triple embeddings.... « Noise contains silence like oyster contains pearl» -Groucho Marx |
What is a clean "sounding" amplifier? My Macs, My Nords, and My Carys, My VTL use to be... SUPER clean, Krell, less clean Pass. Dirty, there are to many good ones to pick a bad one, any more. Just a little looking will get you a good amp.. What is a clean "looking" amplifier, My Macs, My Nords, My Carys. All are covered, with a silk tablecloth, when not in use, once a month dusting. Chrome and shiny paint get waxed twice a year. Valves are pulled and glass polished, pins soft brushed, and cotton wad plunge, twice a year, also. Clean is Clean |
No amplifier is cleaner than the electrical grid where it is embed... Even the cleaner amp in the world will be polluted by the noise of the electrical grid of our house.... Then not only it is important to have a clean amplifier but way more important to clean the other part of the system and decrease the noise floor of the house.... Clean is then not enough "clean"..... :) |
You’re right! I completely unplugged my amp from my dirty house AC and it sounded wonderful! For about five seconds. Then it faded out. Plugged it back in. Crap dirty sound again. Unplugged, clean power! But only for seconds! How can I get clean power to last longer???:) The concept of cleanliness is a relative concept.... this is my point....Upstream to the amplifier there is muddy waters this is also my point.... Noise floor is also a relative concept... When you use your tweaks on your different gear and on the electrical panel you decrease the noise floor and let the signal then better be perceived out of the decreased noise level.... That is my point but you know already that.... |
We know, and are among the few here, that embeddings only can gives to us optimal Hi-Fi and reveal the potential of any electronic components...None is at his optimum right of the box... A bunch of tweaks are not a method tough, it is the reason why i create this simple concept of triple embeddings to clarify the subject for myself.... You catch it on the spot.... But others think about "tweaks" like secondary artefact and mostly snakeoil.... It is important to explain things clearly.... I know nothing myself and without money i was in the obligation to think about it without ready made costly solutions at my feet... :) But anyway "golden plate" or Emat they decrease each in their own way the noise floor of the house and it is one of the goal... |
With regards to power line noise, on a separate front from distortion, that is not the amp but the electricity that runs it, and a truly clean amp probably has a good quality power supply that does what is needed to feed the amp clean power it needs to perform well. If not external power conditioning should help or be an insurance policy at minimum. True that both noise and distortion makes an amp "unclean". The amp itself produces both to various degrees aside from the electricity it runs on. The horror! What a mess! |
...an absurdvation for one that doesn't use or even have a pre-amp.... I can turn my volume to max....and nothing....even with my low-rent IC's. AB SS amps....nothing pedigree....SS 'pro' Eqs'.... The RTA sez their's a 'noise floor'....but I can't hear it. *shrug* Maybe I'm just lucky....or in a local focal locus that allows such. If so....no, you can't move here....*G* |
mahgister3,019 posts07-29-2020 6:05pmNo amplifier is cleaner than the electrical grid where it is embed... Even the cleaner amp in the world will be polluted by the noise of the electrical grid of our house.... Then not only it is important to have a clean amplifier but way more important to clean the other part of the system and decrease the noise floor of the house.... Clean is then not enough "clean"..... :) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is the thing, some folks, do have a few extra quid. I worked my whole life. I worked HARD, I worked long hours, I saved, scremped, and did without for 45 years. I had saved a few stereo, parts (My Mac Gear). Made quite a few speakers, through the years, and planed 38 years ago when I did my house remodel, what rooms were going to be for sound. I have a general idea of your concepts. I agree with them wholeheartedly. I also want to add, good, Better and BEST. I agree it doesn’t take the best of all thing, to build a GREAT sounding system. A lot of good can surely work out to Better, but the BEST, it takes better part to start with. It took a lot of the guesswork out my journey. Here is a great example. Mac gear. WHY are the power cords, fixed in place, and have really small conductors with a copper plug. ALL their old stuff has it, and it works really well. WHY? 90-115 VAC really dirty, low voltage, all the bad things you could have. That Mac will sound GOOD. 3/4 of the stuff that has to be done with a lesser piece of equipment to bring it up to, that standard, cost way more than the Mac did to begin with. While I appreciate YOUR system for you, I don't have the same situation, or limitations, for me.. I did however build a "low dollar" system a few months back. It is a good system, but it will never EVER sound as good as my main system. I don't care what I do to it. Regards |
You people are fooling yourselves in an effort to not spend money - your higher priority than actually attaining superior sound.- by promoting your belief that at best average gear will magically get you superior sound. You are completely clueless. You’re wasting your life fooling with poor methods that waste time and money. Never seen such arrogance over nonsense. You will NOT ha e anything close to SOTA, no matter how much you boast. ONLY superior systems make superior sound. Tweaking is a loser’s game, for those who have resistance to spending money but want to pretend they are doing the same as those who actually go out and get premium sound. Simply because you work like a dog to tweak systems, you figure you are making amazing headway, catapulting the sound WAY up there. Not so. You are messing around in a small, yes small, slice of the performance spectrum and are not even touching the upper end. You typically do not qualify your posts, but boast about getting sound that can't be improved, is exemplary, etc. It's ridiculous. :( |
You will NOT ha e anything close to SOTA, no matter how much you boast. ONLY superior systems make superior sound. Tweaking is a loser’s game,You are not completely wrong, nobody can make a Ferrari with a Volkswagen... But automobile metaphors reach immediately here their limitations... Audio system are constituted by 2 aspects, FIRST the high quality engineering design, and we must pay for that or choose vintage very good product; and SECOND the way to embed this design... A bunch of tweaks is not a method....You are right.... But a method exist to embed any audio system rightfully....THIS IS THE KEY TO AUDIO,not giving money to company... A relatively good design can give you Hi-Fi experience without investing money...This is the first step... I have it.... Investing too much is a looser game.... Thinking, reading, experimenting with your EARS gives you not the best in the world without money but a reasonnably more than good audio system... I know that first hand... Sorry for those who think that we all are damned without money or without specialist to create it for us... My audio system is made of vintage very good electronic parts and i dont think that one of the best amplifier in the world in 1978 is now trash compare to those actual design.... Same thing for speakers.... I dont sell anything, and i dont boast, my system is some Hi-Fi for peanuts....The price to pay was to embed it rightfully, mechanically,electrically,and acoustically especially....This systematic experiments in embeddings are a method not a bunch of costly tweaks... I dont claim that my system is on par with very costly one i claim that it is not so far behind that what you suggest... Money can afford Hi-Fi partly but we need a brain and some works to go there... My post is for those who will read this thread and will think after reading you that they cannot make it by themselves except by giving mass of money, this is false, totally false, except for marketers or sellers; anybody can create his own heaven at low cost...Not the best there is for sure but a good one.... The rest is true boasting,... I dont boast, i motivate others people about their own creativity.... I sell nothing except that and at no cost.... Be free and create.... |
Mahgister, you typically make claims that spending more money without doing your "embeddings" is a waste. That's wrong, completely wrong. You are not making major progress by tweaking out your room. Even a very inexpensive speaker, one costing not much more than what you have now, with a different driver configuration, one that doesn't have to be put on a desk, would transform your sound utterly, completely. You would be in an entirely different place in the spectrum of performance. You could clear out every one of your "embeddings", put in a better speaker, and the sound quality would soar far above what it is now. Tweakers think they are moving at light speed toward the upper end, when in fact they are inching along. It's pretty sad. I used to be a Chintziphile, so I know all about pretending you have oh, so close to premium sound on the cheap. Go ahead, dismiss my comments as though I have something to sell. I'm not paid to write, and I have put in a lot more of my own money into audio than I ever dreamed I would. The reason? I actually got to handle the gear that showed how wrong I was. If not for that I would still be in the camp of people thinking that you can get the same result on the cheap. |
Simply because you work like a dog to tweak systems, you figure you are making amazing headway, catapulting the sound WAY up there. Not so. You are messing around in a small, yes small, slice of the performance spectrum and are not even touching the upper end. You typically do not qualify your posts, but boast about getting sound that can't be improved, is exemplary, etc. It's ridiculous. :(How can you know what i listen to? You are very affected by the possibility for people to afford at low cost their own heaven, why? Are you a seller? Do you think that you are the only one who knows how to push some audio system near his optimal sound? There is many different audio system at different prices, none are on the same level than the others.... Price is related yes in some way to quality.... But my friend any system at any price has his own optimal potential that is not there ready made out of the box.... We must EMBED mechanically, electrically, and acoustically ANY system, whatever his price.... This is my 3 embeddings method, not a bunch of tweaks by some fool that delude himself... My concept is clear for anyone to understand, NO audio system is ready to play at his potential without controlling his resonance and vibrations, without decreasing the electrical noise floor of the system and of the house, without controlling passively with some materials and actively with some device the room's acoustic... These are my 3 embeddings method for all to do.... What you dont like is the fact that applying that is also possible at low cost with homemade materials or low cost one... Why ? Why ranting about this good news? |
You completely miss the point... I never negate that there is different price points and a level of quality that we must pay for... I only try to clarify some simple rules i called triple embeddings for ANY audio system be it 1000 dollars or 10000 dollars... Even the costlier amplifier in the world can be isolated, tuned, and located in a house more electrically clean and in a good acoustical room...He will reach then his own potential S.Q. Even a low cost one also can be push at his own potential in the same way... You falsely accuse me to negate the difference between the 2 price and quality design... Then you affirm something i never say, that there will be no difference at all between a 1000 piece of gear and a 100,000 one... What i say is the real difference between the 2 system is not so much generally the money or the quality design only but the right or wrong way to embed them... Hi -Fi experience is possible at low cost....But nobody in his right mind will say that all audio design has the same potential at the same level... When timbre naturalness is there, and imaging, when the speakers dont exist anymore, when the sound float in the room, you have SOME hi-fi experience at SOME level.... Is it possible at low cost? yes this is possible.... The rest is boasting about price..... Tweakers think they are moving at light speed toward the upper end, when in fact they are inching along. It’s pretty sad. What you just say about SOME tweakers can be said about SOMEreviewers that sell a product.... "reviewers think they are moving at light speed toward the upper end,when in fact they are inching along. It is pretty sad" You see the irony? All tweakers are not made equal no more than all reviewers are made equal.... The TRUTH is simple: the way a product is embed is as important as his quality design or his price... This is the only fact i affirm.... Like it or not..... I am not a tweaker among others, and i dont sell tweak, i describe a method and my idea are free, i bought nothing, i create with homemade materials or 10 bucks device....I experiment with my ears....Inching along yourself my friend.... I know what i listen to....What is pretty sad is when others describe for you your own experience without even trying to understand you....Keep your turf safe i will keep mine....I wish you the best and i like to discuss...thanks for this occasion for me to clarify my points... My best to you.... |
A clean power amplifier stands out in a crowd. Look for a pristine face plate with no smudges or missing silk screening. The sides, bottom plate and rear panel the same and look for bright shinny input connectors, speaker posts and the female IEC slot. A quick look inside would reveal no dust, clean circuit boards, wire, caps and transformers. If it is an exposed tube amp in addition to the above, look for clean chrome or top surface with no scratching from cleaning and shiny glass on the tubes. |
Clean power comes after a shot of Clorox and a dose of UV. Can one shortcut improved sound? Can one buy improved sound? Reckon maybe is the best answer for both, but no absolutes. Though money can promise better experiences most of the time, while hacks and tonics promise disappointment most of the time. |
I like this definition of Embedding:
to make something an integral part of. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/embed I have no idea where my individual equipment choices rate in the world of audiophile performance. I simply can't afford six figures for every element of my system to make it SOTA. Now if others in the forum do have the kind of budget to spend >six figures on the main elements of their system, I sincerely congratulate you and your fiscal prowess (douglas_schroeder). I have enjoyed being here in this forum, and read and researched earnestly, on how to integrate the elements of my system. Now I may not have done my embedding (mahgister) or integration of my system in my house quite the same as anyone else. With my limited budget, and spousal approval, I have managed to find improvements incrementally as I've made my way. I do appreciate that most people in here have the social graces to include everybody, and allow all of us to contribute as we may. We all have different opinions, and I constantly see World's finest, and World's best this and that claimed in advertising. Maybe a reviewer somewhere has a pretty good idea, but has anyone heard every single high end equipment being developed and sold around the globe?? trevanian - I hope you've got a reasonable answer to your question? If a clean power amplifier is one that faithfully amplifies the original signal it is fed, without colouring it with noise, then I have an understanding of a clean sounding power amplifier. |
I consider myself an audiophile precisely because i avoid the pitfall of obsessively buying anything especially or because it is very costly...(it is easy tough i dont have money) :) I try to buy the best at the lowest cost, it takes me 5 years to do so.... for the last 2 years my choices being so good my buying spree at low cost is ended... A true audiophile think mostly about embedding rightfully the audio system then putting it on the right track to reach his true potential optimal S.Q. A true audiophile is able to made it possible at the lowest cost... Buying costly gear is easy, anybody can.... Embedding it rightfully, with the necessary methods and controls, mechanically, electrically and acoustically, at very low cost, is being an audiophile... A bunch of ready made branded new pricey tweaks is not a method tough .... I have create methodically my own "tweaks" for my specific gear, house , and room....At peanuts costs, and some has been even scandalized by this possibility in this thread few hours ago and expressed their anger for this blasphemy against audio and against this pretense of mine.... But reviewers, marketers, and upgrading obsessive consumers are not audiophiles by birth ....The first 2 species sells products, the second one accumulate one piece of gear after another without thinking and believing that the last will be ready out of the box to be the best there is for high fidelity experience.... But this only gives frustrations and illusory experiences most of the times....A real experience is continuous and develop in time step by step on years....This is an audiophile history in the making because we become audiophile by owning a creative listening history, not by owning a product or a brand... Audiophiles listen their music, because they love music and music train their ears and soul.... The main instrument of the audiophile is his listening history and ears experiments.... Most people mocking audiophile dont have a clue....Sorry.... |
Now I may not have done my embedding (mahgister) or integration of my system in my house quite the same as anyone else.Nobody can do the rightful triple embeddings in the same exact ways, with exactly the same devices and the same materials.... Why? Simply because we must create our own particular solutions. for our own particular resonance-vibration dimension,for our own electrical grid, for our own acoustical space, different from gear to gear and house to house, and room to room.... Different also in price and time invested.... The only common thing between us will be the creativity....And some commonality of the problems then some commonality of the solutions.... My best to you.... |
One more comment; for the record (again, as I have said this publicly prior), I have never berated or mocked any low budget system. Rather, I have consistently encouraged and complimented persons who I felt put together impressive low budget systems and said that I thought they would enjoy them. I will never forget that more than 40 years ago I started out with a Radio Shack receiver and two mismatched, naked full range drivers taken from console stereos and hooked up with lamp cord. So, please, let's not have derisive comments about my showing disdain for budget audio. I have, over the past 25 years, budgeted literally a line item for audio and invested into my system annually. That is one sure way to end up after many years of working at it, with something better than at first. Putting my time in learning, designing and building a specialized audio room was well worth the effort and cost. It was one of the most rewarding things I have done in the hobby, and the satisfaction of using the room regularly is quite high. I highly recommend to those with the space and inclination to give it a go. BTW, there is recurring insistence on this forum to the effect that the room is the most important part, that a serious audiophile needs a treated, dedicated room, etc. Nonsense; I oppose those sweeping comments, partly because I enjoyed audio in a lived in part of the house previously, and because I think they vastly overrate the impact of the room vs. the benefit of advancing the system itself. I think it would be very discouraging to the budget audiophile to see such comments, and I do not support them. Of course, a dedicated room is a bonus, but it is ridiculous to declare that one is not doing high end audio if the room is not treated with specific treatments, etc. Imo, that is a form of dismissive elitism. So, anyone who suggests that I'm putting down budget audio has no clue regarding my disposition. :) |
First, room acoustic is fundamental... I think they vastly overrate the impact of the room vs. the benefit of advancing the system itself.Second, upgrading (advancing the system) is a money pit and the root of this "elitism" that you speak about. Third, room acoustic made my listening experiments possible and at practically no cost a hi-Fi experience by itself...Using passive materials and also with active homemade device... I know i made it and the reward is amazing.... A remark: Buying very good components in the scale corresponding to our purse is the first task.... But upgrading after that is a very problematic solution to the problem of the system improvement....No one can exceed his purse possibility, and most upgrades in the same rung of the scale is no more an upgrade but a "sidegrade", a useless expansive variation ....And the source of frustrations.... Then the solution to reach Hi-Fi experience cannot comes from the buying spree in "elite" new brand technology.... The solution can come and must come from the way we will embed rightfully what we already owns, that is anyway already relatively good gear if well choosen... a good amplifier or a good speakers of 20 years or 30 years ago or more are not obsolete nor so bad that they cannot gives no more an HiFi experience... i call that solution the 3 embeddings of any audio system: resonance- vibrations controls in the mechanical dimension, controlling and decreasing the noise floor of the electrical grid of the audio system, of the room and of the house, and last but not least, controlling the acoustical space in a passive way with varieties of low costs materials and in an active way with simple homemade devices... All that is possible, simple, and dont cost high money.... I know that i made it.... Anyone go with his purse... The true "elitism" and snobbery and ignorance is affirming that what i speak about, is impossible, illusory, and false...Saying only high cost gear is the key is half truths, and half truths are worse than lies.... Anyone KNOW only what he can create for himself.... I learn it the hard way for the last 7 years.... Audiophile experience is possible for all creative people at low costs.... Equating all i just say with the affirmation that all piece of audio system are on the same level is not what i speak about at all....A Million dollars system will be better than my system but will need also to be rightfully embed to reach his potential higher S. Q.... Hi-Fi experience, naturalness of musical timbre, holographic imaging, dynamic, etc are all possible with a low cost good system, modulo the rightfull embeddings.... |
In just 5 second google search anybody can educate itself.... « The room response is far more critical than the speaker response.» Dennis Foley Chief Acoustics Engineer I will add that the 2 other embeddings will impact critically the S.Q. in a different way than the acoustical controls or uncontrols but nonetheless in a very audible way....The electrical grid of the house and his noise floor is the sea where float the audio system... Not controlling this sea is opening the gates of distorsions hell.... :) Same for the importance of the resonance underestimated controls.... This not adocating for some disparate "tweaks" , my rant is advocating for a "method" accessible to anyone... The beginning is stating clearly the problem at the root of an audio experience and experiment.... What is the more important for Hi-Fi experience? The choice between paying 2000 dollars for a speakers or 4000 dollars? Or the way to embed ANY speakers making it able to produce his utmost potential S. Q. ? It is not difficult to answer.....Except for someone who sells speakers...Or some brand.... Etc.... |
Class D is “to “ clean. I miss the “emotion “ in the music. Sometimes to flat. For me, the best one is tubes pure in class A. Off course the poweramp.is just one piece in the whole system. A good source, préamp, dac,speakers and cables are very important (electric power “cleaners” to). I have as poweramp (mononblocks) Wavac 805m:pure music!! |
If Class D is too clean there are a few simple tweaks you might try. Obvious but slow is to just let the dust build up. If the sound is a bit dry and gritty and you would like a smoother softer focus try the Playboy Tweak, a thin coat of vaseline. Very popular all through the 80's. Keep in mind a clean amp is just the beginning. Don't forget to clay, polish and wax. |