Ethernet opinions

@ghasley  there you go. Roon download per already posted link above. Hifi rose says in their support that you cannot turn off cache for Qobuz.

it invalidates the entire argument that cables or switches can make a difference. That is why it matters. If it isn’t a stream, how can a cable make a continuous improvement. Answer, it can’t. 

@fredrik222 

You have not published your system so I can’t give you a link to your streamer of choice.

Fred, since you asked I use Grimm MU1 streamer-server/DCS Apex dac/Audio Note Jinro amp/Devore speaker setup at home. I have a Roon Nucleus+/Hifi Rose 150b/Sugden IA4 amp/Devore speaker setup at the office for background music.

Frederic, why do you even frequent Audiogon? You claim there is absolutely no difference between digital cables and yet most who experience the difference, good and bad, take your insistence and inflexibility as a clear mark of ignorance. Your repeated insistence only cements those opinions. 

Qobuzz and tidal “stream” the audio file to your player if you do not have a local copy.

some streamers do NOT provide any local storage, so you never get the cached track: it is going to stream the track every time.

If playing through a phone, a pad or a pc, or your streamer has storage to allocate, (or a nas to use) the apps will use local storage to cache your previously streamed, and saved/cached, track.

So qobuzz and tidal APPS CAN save a local copy IF there is storage they can use.  Otherwise you are strictly streaming.

There is some level of error recovery that can allow the track to play with some errors.  Too many errors and the track buffers or even just stops and tries to restart the stream.

I live with this everyday.. at least I will until I find time to fix my nas and assign a connection to it in the innuos pulse mini… then see if it will use that to cache anyway.  Otherwise, it will be  downloads and then point innuos to the nas to play downloaded tracks.

Though, I have to try attaching a usb drive to the pulse mini.. that might solve my local caching problem.

By the way, I had ethernet from router to pulse then short usb to dac.

Had a really high frequency hissing present.  I got my fibre media connectors yesterday and replaced the ethernet from router to pulse mini with an optical run. Convert ethernet to fibre->fibre to media converter to ethernet->short, shielded ethernet to pulse.  High frequency hissing went away.

So yes, ethernet to fibre and back does “clean up” noise.

fredrik222

@cleeds that is how the Qobuz and Tidal work, through song download ...

Yes, you may choose to download tracks from Tidal and Qobuz. Many people choose to do that. Personally, I use Qobuz for streaming. Yes, that involves a cache but a cache is not a download any more than a stream is a download. Downloads cost $$$, so I don’t do it often.

The computer I’m working on now is a desktop running Windows 11 and actually has multiple caches. It’s how computers work, but that doesn’t mean it’s downloading.

@ghasley bam! Name calling, as predicted! 
 

Do you think Naim is serious equipment? What about Roon? Hifi Rose? You have not published your system so I can’t give you a link to your streamer of choice.

More:” See an example of that in the attached graph from my Roon core playing 96/24 from Qobuz as a track ends and the next starts: a steady send rate to the playing endpoint, and a big burst receiving the next track. It’s all on 1Gb wired local network to the router, so that 140 Mbps burst is no problem.”

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-192-not-working-despite-over-100-mbps/165568/8

@fredrik222 No one serious about their music quality uses the Qobuz/Tidal app and I have heard qualitative differences between ethernet cables. Now, STFU and finish cutting Carlsbad's lawn, Cleeds is waiting on you as well.

@carlsbad2  ok, so they deleted my response to you. Of course streaming and downloads are bit perfect, or it wouldn’t play. Which, in the case when you have high packet loss in true stream, is why experience a drop out, not something like a faint radio station would introduce, noise. 
 

But go ahead and explain, how is tcp/ip not bit perfect?

@cleeds that is how the Qobuz and Tidal work, through song download. Streaming is a continues stream however, that is not what Qobuz and Tidal does.. Don’t blame me, and go check your  cache settings. What do you think a cache is for, just curious? 
 

@ghasley there is a difference there, DRM check needs to happen still. You would have to force the music offline to do that.

Tip of the week from Naim: ““Tip of the week: Does your music sometimes get stuck or randomly skips to the next track? The likely cause is a cache issue.
The Qobuz app stores songs in its internal cache when you stream them. Occasionally incompletely cached tracks don’t clear out automatically.”

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/top-tip-for-qobuz-users/15990
 

From Qobuz: 
https://help.qobuz.com/en/articles/10143-how-much-music-can-i-listen-to-and-manage-offline

“Regarding cached music - the music that gets stored on your application while you listen - you can decide how much space to allocate for this, or choose to deactivate this function entirely, in your app’s settings. Please note: it is not possible to deactivate the cache functionality on PC/Mac.”
 

and this is what I mean, you give people enough rope to hang themselves, and they just jump straight in neck first without doing any research.

@fredrik222 

To test your theory, press play on a new (not previously played or downloaded) Tidal/Qobuz track and then immediately disconnect your ethernet cable from your streamer. Then please report back.

fredrik222

i never said that they are the same thing. I said that “streaming” from Qobuz, Tidal and others are not true streaming. You download the song in its entirety, and then playback from a cache ...

No, that is mistaken. "Streaming" and "downloading" are two different things. A entire song does not "download" before streaming begins. In fact, it does not "download" at all, unless you choose to purchase the track and download it. For some reason, you seem intent on conflating streaming and downloading. I’m not sure why, but your insistence only makes your "debate" sillier. Just because there is a cache (extremely common in computing, by the way) does not mean a "download" is underway.

@audphile1 

5. Amazon CAT8 is a really great cable for the money

I agree, it seems well constructed.  That is what I use, and what I was pointing the OP to in my earlier post.  If I were starting, I would be happy with that for Ethernet cabling and would spend any additional money elsewhere.

@cleeds i never said that they are the same thing. I said that “streaming” from Qobuz, Tidal and others are not true streaming. You download the song in its entirety, and then playback from a cache. That is why simply why everything that “improves” Ethernet just doesn’t, and cannot do. Even OP said that the manufacturer said it doesn’t do anything. if you don’t believe me, look at their support sites and you will see what they say for yourself.

No one “challenges”, they just put a bunch of garbage out there that is not true. And then you give them enough rope to hang themselves… it is very sad that this is the state of the industry.

@shtr74sims here are my top picks from what I had tried…

1. Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System

2. Purist Audio Design CAT7 (I wouldn’t say it’s worse than Eno, just different but a good way)

3. Supra CAT8 with Telegartner connectors

4. Supra CAT8 with stock Supra ends

5. Amazon CAT8 is a really great cable for the money

Yellow and Blue ethernet cables work but they don’t sound as good as the ones on my list above.

How about everyone put in their top 3 cables they have found work well ? No fighting now…. 

fredrik222

Of course streaming is bit perfect, and on top of that it is not streaming from Qobuz, Tidal and others. It's a download.

No. Streaming and downloading are  two different things. It's rather odd that you keep insisting they are the same.

... here's where things break down, asking people who know nothing to explain ...

Ad hominem.  It's a logical fallacy that those challenging you "know nothing."

@carlsbad2 It is not true to start with. 

Of course streaming is bit perfect, and on top of that it is not streaming from Qobuz, Tidal and others. It's a download. You can educate yourself on the Qobuz and Tidal support sites like I previously mentioned. 

So, again, you don't know what you are talking about. 

But I'll humor you. How is it not bit perfect given encryption, DRM, and the TCP/IP stack? 

And as a side note, here's where things break down, asking people who know nothing to explain, and they start the name calling when you debunk every single argument with facts. @audphile1  ring any bells?

Audphile1,

Yes as you point out, Supra cables are really good for the money, and there are better cables than the Supra cables. I think it’s important to highlight high quality cables at a more affordable price, as everyone deserves the benefit of good cables regardless of price point, or as important, good cables for a lower cost system.

I’ve found really good sound from Supra Cables (I have the Cat 8 Ethernet, Excalibur USB, 2.1 8K HDMI, and the same can be said for DH Labs, Zavfino, and Oyaide Neo.

All the best

@fredrik222 my post letting everyone know that you don't understand streaming was removed.  If a moderator has a problem with that statement, please let me know what rule it violates.

You are spreading misinformation.  Streaming is not bitperfect as you are trying to convince people it is.

Jerry

You are welcome.  Just sharing my experiences. Two of the things I like most about a streamer/server set-up are how easy it is to operate and the wide range of music available that I wouldn't have otherwise found out about.  Just yesterday, I learned about three artists I was previously unaware of who are creating music that is similar to other artists I listen to. 

Regarding your hard-wired connection, that is for sure the best way to go, IME.  I have both fiber and Ethernet available over my 45-foot run so I can easily switch between them.  I have done so several times over the past couple of years, and I cannot reliably say I hear a difference - at least to the point where I would be comfortable saying I could tell one from the other based on a blind listening session.  

Regarding mesh networks, in my experience with residential applications, they are generally preferable to a single router when needed to provide internet over longer distances and they are certainly preferable to using boosters.  My outdoor system, which is set up in the garage, is connected to an Orbi mesh satellite, which has Ethernet jacks for hardwiring so, the signal travels wirelessly from my base router over the mesh network to the satellite and then over a short Ethernet cable to a Roon endpoint that feeds a DAC.  That set-up has been great functionally but I cannot comment on whether there are any sound quality differences compared to a hardwired connection directly from the base router, which I what I have always done for my main system. 

@mitch2 thank you for the suggestions. That’s the most informative so far. My DAC is hardwired at the moment and I am going to leave it what way for a bit. If anything I may get a blue Jean cable for a while, they are in spec and aren’t expensive. Part of the fun is trying different things to see what works and how the sound can change. I still can’t get over the new system from the old setup. The old one does not even compare and I had it for 15+ years. My wife even loves this setup, prob as much as I do at this point. 

I have tried a lot of this streaming add-on stuff and my suggestion would be to simply hardwire an Ethernet cable to your streamer and then listen for a while and think about whether the sound meets your expectations.  There is always more stuff to try but, in my system, none of it has come anywhere close to the level of sound improvement I have achieved by improving my streamer and/or DAC.  Some thoughts:

• I have not heard noticeable differences in Ethernet cables so I went with a generic CAT 8 cable from Amazon because the CAT 8 is better shielded than the lower CAT numbers but, as has been said here, any CAT cable will likely work fine.  
• You could think about running your signal using fiber, instead of using Ethernet .  Fiber cables are very inexpensive, and the fiber provides isolation,  but you would need a converter at the router and another at your endpoint, near your system.  I have tried my 45-foot run both ways and cannot say I reliably hear a difference between Ethernet and fiber.  I am set up with fiber currently.
• You could also keep adding stuff, like:
  • a linear power supply on the fiber converter nearest your system, or at both converters (which is what I am doing)
  • a switch at your system, at the Ethernet endpoint or, just following the fiber converter, and then you have the option to run a shorter length of a higher quality Ethernet cable, or simply a very short cable, from the switch into your server (I am using two of the Bonn switches)
  • If you choose to run Ethernet and not fiber, you could consider optical isolation using something like the GigaFOILv4 INLINE Ethernet Filter (I have tried this)
  • some sort of isolation filter prior to your server, such as one of the Network Acoustics models, eno, muon, or muon Pro, which probably work best coming out of a switch with their own Ethernet cable into the filter and then the slaved, short network cable from the filter to the server  (I am using the muon system currently)
  • You can try different connectors between your server and DAC but some here will say those cables make no difference (muon USB in my system)
  • There are a bunch of other add-ons you can read about in these forums and try such as the EtherREGEN

You can spend a lot of money and time on this stuff so my suggestion is to go slow, research how others like the changes you are considering, and make sure you like each improvement before you move on.

Good luck

@vthokie83 +1 on Supra CAT8! I had it and it’s pretty good. I also tried the version with Telegartner connectors which is better than the stock Supra. As good as the Supra is, and it’s a really good value for the money, it falls slightly short of the performance I hear from my Purist Audio CAT7 ethernet cable or the Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System. The Supra would be nice for a long run between the router and the switch or filter, with the last leg using something like the AQ Vodka into the streamer.

I alternate between the Purist and the Eno just to enjoy the different ways these cables make my system sound. The Purist is slightly more dynamic. The Eno is sweeter, slightly more silky and relaxed sounding in a nice way. Pretty cool to be able to switch between the two once in a while and appreciate the difference.

shtr,

Some good suggestions here. In case you end up going the route of an affordable but high quality ethernet cable, these are really good. $122 for an 8 meter cable

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155235053320?hash=item2424baef08:g:5UwAAOSwB4NW07FZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwJ%2FlgZG7Gbg%2Fl2ZoNmbd0tDEJmtMF%2FFLfYNEZYKhzPNyrWjXm1lzfbHwnGt9arnnup762L0VTX9%2BtLiilegdBlHvLoClizUo1dbniWWGdFUOTx0XzMbVJTYEgWxi4IPqNl5%2BKfihqBTIGnS78iLN02oR6RjyLlzxnCBIontX4GLtb%2BS%2B9RpVoc%2Bp%2BsGeUQK6MRq2JnukJ%2Fm%2BaH1koOng8Dka75sVfNFiTP3sVMwXs9D%2B%2BpStu%2BIaIltEV4bL4fHEqg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4jdyvf7YQ

They are my second best ethernet cables, oddly slightly behind the Audioquest Vodka which are my reference....but closer than you might suspect

@audphile1 lol, you are funny. You know absolute 0 about networking, and yet you hand out advice. And then you rag on an electrical engineer who actually know a thing or two. Funny stuff! Sad that people listen you and people like you, but people wake up when what you tell them turns out to be crap, as always!

@tomrk yep! It is sad however that this is where the industry is at.

@fredrik222 Linus takes the Aqvox audiophile switch apart and the difference between the two apparently is they sanded the part # off a chip and glued a crystal on top of some of the chips.   Not a crystal oscillator, a crystal.

Oh yes, they glued the screws in.

That's funny stuff.

Yup. But in your case your Pass Labs gear as well as the Bricasti are so low noise and quiet. I would run the X250.8 straight from the wall outlet using a good power cord. The M3 will benefit from power conditioning and so will the XP-12 but make sure the power cord feeding the power conditioner is on the level with the rest of the stuff. But I digress…back to ethernet…keep us posted on your progress. 

@audphile1 fair point, I saw they were not happy with the AQ Niagara 1200. I am very content with mine. There is zero background noise coming though my speakers when the music is off and the volume cranked up. 

Apply a good filter when listening to ASR reviews. Amir is very experienced from the EE standpoint but you need to always remember he does these videos to get views and the audience he caters to have certain expectations. Usually they love him trashing all high end equipment, they favor specs and measurements and don’t bother listening. They feel great knowing that their $99 DAC measures better than a $7,000 cd player. That’s pretty much what ASR is all about. The cult and following is pretty amazing though. 

I found this video explaining switches. I hope it helps everyone as much as it has helped me. We are hopefully all here to help each other so there is no need to give each other a hard time. 
 

https://youtu.be/BHPwPRLxDWc

@shtr74sims before you think he is too helpful, you might find it relevant @audphile1 understanding of Ethernet is that he thinks it is a paper smeared with peanut butter, dipped in sand and then crumbled. 

@audphile1 how about a real review? Hans can’t figure out how to turn a switch on, let alone understand how it works. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFQ3YvR3Eo&t=1011s

@audphile1 no problem, you have been very helpful. 

@shtr74sims btw thank you for the kind words!!!

Hans’ video review of English Electric switch

How to incorporate FMC

shtr74sims OP

50 posts

05-01-2023 at 02:44pm 

What would most of you guys do ? Run an Ethernet across the room from modem to dac ? Or run Ethernet across the room into a switch then use the AQ Vodka into dac ? Just curious… 
 

It’s all very subjective.
I would try both with switch and without. 
I would also try a basic ethernet cable into FMC 1, convert to fibre optic then into FMC 2 out with AQ Vodka for the last 0.75m or 1.5m into Bricasti. 
All of the above can be experimented with while taking advantage of full return/refund policies. You will spend few hours but walk away with knowledge and experience plus the best possible configuration that works in your system.

Just my opinion. 

I read a comparison test once where the user tested 5-6 high-end (some VERY high-end) ethernet cables and included a BJC as a sort-of baseline. Guess which one he ended up liking best? I myself tested a DH Labs Reunion Cat 8 cable (about $200) against a BJC and could not hear any difference at all. I'm not cable agnostic, I believe in buying nice cables where it counts, but ethernet is not included in that group. BJC is an excellent cable, it's just not a "luxury" cable.

What would most of you guys do ? Run an Ethernet across the room from modem to dac ? Or run Ethernet across the room into a switch then use the AQ Vodka into dac ? Just curious… 

@12many thank you, thats kind of where I am right now. I am curious about the switch and using my AQ Vodka cable to the DAC. Reason being for the Blue Jean is they are in spec really. 

Sorry about your Mom. Just use Blue Jean cables. You won’t tell a difference.  

@carlsbad2 projecting much today? Qobuz is pretty clear about this. They even have a cache locally, so once you have listened to a song it is stored locally, ready for to listen to again.... 

It's readily available to learn about on their support site. 

Tidal is the same, also available on their support site. 

In summary, yes, you actually do not stream music from Tidal or Qobuz, you download and then playback. 

@ghasley i do agree with you 💯. It doesn’t hurt to ask opinions try gain more knowledge though. My last system was 15 years old. It was a Rotel 10 series with B&W 600s. This is my first DAC, it’s fascinating to me what has changed over the years. 

128/24????

I wish I didnt hear marked differences between high quality cable A, high quality cable B and the excellent linkup/Amazon cable. While my own experience is far from scientific, I found streamed Qobuz/Tidal music over the Linkup sounded excellent but several considerable steps behind the same tracks stream from the internal storage of my server/streamer. High quality cable A sounded better but still behind those streamed from the internal drive and high quality cable B (my current reference) streamed files sound virtually indistinguishable from the files on the internal drive.

Try things and if you don’t hear a positive difference then don’t keep them. Don’t believe anything or anyone but your ears.

Just FYI, 96/24 only needs around 6 MBits /s of Ethernet, 128/24 only needs around 8 Mbits. Any Ethernet cable made in the last 20 years would work. and still have plenty left over. :)

Cat 5 at 100 Mbit/s has 13x more capacity than you'd need at 128/24, while 1GigE 130x more. 

I'm in the camp that the upgrading the ethernet connection will not help or have anything to do with sound quality.  Just make sure it's Cat5e or Cat 6 and that the cable is well terminated and you will be fine. 

The best solution, if you can swing it, is to run an ethernet drop from where you modem/router is to where you streamer/DAC is.  If you are in a single-story house, you can probably run the cable through the attic and down the walls to ports on both sides.  Nice and clean.

@shtr74sims  I am sure he has, until you start putting out those pesky things like facts, then the name callings comes.

@lalitk I do agree with you 😊

@fredrik222 I got to say that audphile1 has been nothing but kind in his responses. He has given me feedback often. 

+1, @audphile1

@shtr74sims

As you said in one of your posts, “seems the only way really is for someone to try it on their own”. Fortunately, you do own a component that will allow you to hear even a slightest change. The LINKUP cable I recommended backed by Amazon return policy so you got nothing to loose.