Ethernet cables
Hello everybody!
I would like to have your opinions about Ethernet cables. I recently saw some silly expensive Ethernet cables! Do you think it is worth spending a huge amount for a cable which transfers data? Your thoughts please!
Thank you!
I am far from a digital or IT specialist but you lost me on this one. It is my understanding analog signals are continuous electrical signals while ethernet cables carry non-continuous electrical pulses to transmit digital data. Isn't that inherently two different things? |
The tendency is to compare digital signal transmission to a telegraph. After all, the dot-dash DC circuit of the telegraph is similar to the 0-1 of digital. And like the DC circuit of a telegraph the voltage of a digital signal is either 0 or 5 Volts. We tend to imagine an analog wave form as something like a +/- sine wave or combination of sine waves overlapping. Digital signals are waves too. They do not cross zero but they have a bias of 2.5 Volts. ie. over time the average voltage of a square wave of a digital signal will be something around 2.5 Volts. That means the digital square wave "zero crossing" is at 2.5 Volts. Given that these square waves are propagating at 5 MHz and higher, they share many properties of analog waveforms. They can experience phase shift due to capacitance or inductance and they can pick up distortion although their tolerance for distortion is much higher than analog. On the other hand, digital signals for streaming are less tolerant to phase shift or timing. Ethernet and USB cables have an impact on the sound of streaming music that many claim is impossible. Meanwhile, audio hobbyists may not fully understand why or how but find ways to improve and move forward the state of the art. Maybe I'm talking out of my hat here but much of what we experience with streaming hifi manifests itself more as a wave than not. |
Im of the belief that everything that you do in your system has the potential for making a difference. Whether that difference can be heard or not depends on the resolution of your system. Whether that difference can be heard and is worth the additional money is another story. Every little improvement also adds up usually. So adding a few extremely minor improvements can add up to a cumulative positive effect. I use a 50ft run Supra CAT 8 Ethernet cable from my music server direct to my MSB DAC. Was it a major leap forward over my CAT 5e cable? Nope. A very minor but audible improvement. But I also have a Tripp-lite isolation transformer, two Puron Power filters, and a GigaFoil v4 in the system. Each made a difference, but cumulatively, It was a big improvement, say 15-20%. FYI, off-topic, but I found the Purons (my last tweak added) to make a startlingly significant improvement! |
Well made and well-shielded, not-junk ethernet cables are essential for carrying any data from point A to B. They need to meet modern standards too, as Ethernet speeds are not the same today as they were years ago. However, the stupid expensive ones are just that-- stupid. They are transmitting digital data not analog signals and will not sound better despite of all of the wild claims made by manufacturers. No one will be able to tell the difference in any true blind A-B comparison. So yes, a well-made cable should deliver data packets with fewer errors, which get corrected upon delivery BTW, but to equate the price of ethernet cables with sound quality is just more audiophile nonsense. |
They are transmitting digital data not analog signals- False If you tap into your ethernet cable do you see 0's and 1's? You do not. You see a square wave ranging from 5-80 MHz. A square wave is.....wait for it.... ANALOG. It is a wave. It is shaped different than a sine wave but it is a wave. It is analog. Now since the square wave is interpreted at the receiving end as 1's and 0's it is not as susceptible to analog noise- ie. static and hiss, but the square wave's weakness is distortion causing timing and phase shifts. And EMI or RFI can get in the line and ride all the way into your DAC, and that will affect the performance of a D/A convertor. No one will be able to tell the difference- False. Better cables do a better job at interference noise rejection. That is quite noticeable to the performance of D/A convertors, especially since lower cost DACs and music servers have little to no noise rejection on their inputs. The higher end, more expensive DACs and Music servers have better noise rejection, isolation of the incoming signal and more often now, re-clocking. At least they should. |
wesheadley Well Put! Just one problem though. They (cable sellers) are not cable manufacturers. Just like us they buy digital/data cables on amazon/ebay under $10/pc and add jacket (and heat shrink tubing) in someone’s garage or warehouse and sell them for hundreds of dollars. tonywinga We know digital/data signals are stepping/square waves in the form of discrete values, but you call those signals ANALOG? Furthermore... "the square wave’s weakness is distortion causing timing and phase shifts. And EMI or RFI can get in the line and ride all the way into your DAC" I actually want to learn more about it. Can you give us reference links or citations or some other source of the information? Thank you. |
Network audio relies on error free bulk data transfer. When the musical data is transferred from the source to the destination the data is broken up into thousands of small data packet/frames. Each chunk of data has an associated checksum. If timing or phase errors occur causing one or more bits to be received incorrectly the checksum will fail, the packet will be discarded and eventually re-transmitted. Once a packet/frame is received at the destination it will be copied and moved around in system memory multiple times. The data will eventually be reassembled in system memory and then the process of generating an analog signal will begin. Some one on the internet ran an experiment where he/she wrapped an electrical cable around an Ethernet cable and measured a small 60 Hz signal coming out the DAC. When the electrical cable was removed the 60 Hz signal disappeared. Maybe some one here can reproduce that experiment. |
This is a summary of about 3 years of study on the subject and experimentation on my part to confirm or dispel others’ claims. I can’t cite a single source that would explain it all. Much of the information is scattered about. I’ve not had technical courses or been tested on this subject matter so I am open to corrections and clarifications. But you will find references to digital signal transmission having an analog component. I think a lot of the information is held closely as trade secrets and to hold a competitive advantage. The IEEE specs for data transmission has protocols and standards that the industry follows, but beyond that it is up to engineers and designers to finds ways to beat out everyone else. In time more information will find its way into classrooms. When it comes to cables- Caveat Emptor. Yes, a lot of hocum in the world of cables. I stick to the more established brands with a pedigree. They often cost more but they also resell better. If you research wire, only a handful of wire makers exist in the USA with the experience and know- how to draw wire for the best sound in audio. The drawing process is crucial. Finding out who the companies are would be a real feat. The cable makers hold their cards close to their chest. Beyond that, materials, weave types and assembly processes play a crucial role as well to the sound of cables. Look for companies with the technical resources to develop cables. Not just put something together that looks pretty. They need to have a lab with the proper test equipment. Another thing is to take note of what cables vendors use at audio shows like Axpona. Not the rooms specifically selling a brand of cable but the rooms that are showing off their speakers, amps or sources. I actually saw a lot of rooms using the same few brands. As for Ethernet and USB cables, 4 years ago I did not believe they could impact the sound at all. Digital has come a long way. CD players up to the early 90s couldn’t hold a candle to vinyl’s low level detail and the ability to create a 3D soundstage. Now my digital rig is as good as my best vinyl. That is is all done digitally- creating lifelike images in space like analog totally amazes me. But just like with vinyl, everything matters. |
" I can’t cite a single source that would explain it all." of course i already knew it. I know the IEEE very well our team has submitted our research manuscripts to them a few times. I can’t really find "digital signal waves are analog". So could you be more specific about the IEEE specs for data transmission in regards to "it's analog"? I will contact the IEEE tomorrow for details. Don’t waste money (if you’re not elon musk). Just buy on amazon for less than $10. You won’t find any audible difference at all. Those cable sellers buy them on amazon/ebay just like us and decorate them with fancy jacket or some other snake oil
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Thank you for those explanations. I cannot argue them as I’ve not seen the studies or data that supports the conclusion. I guess where I would still hold some skepticism is in whether or not those signal anomalies caused by interference or whatever are actually altering the timing or the data itself being sent across the cable. I suppose it’s possible to test this by sending a digital audio track across some Ethernet cables and then do a bit by bit comparison of the source and the copy. If they are exactly the same then there should be no impact on the audio, yes? I’m not arguing for the use of cheap cables BTW, just that the claims made by many of these boutique cable makers, and the often absurd prices they charge for them, don’t hold up to scrutiny when A-B blind testing is done. Poorly constructed or damaged cables notwithstanding. |
@classicrockfan Suffice it to say you’re in the distinct minority on this site as most here have heard differences in varying degrees in every type of cable. You joined only a few months ago and from what I can tell all you’ve done in that time is throw flames and spout conspiracy theories like the one above, and you provide no value or useful insights/info whatsoever. In short, you appear to be here for no other reason than to be a troll and spoil otherwise helpful and informative threads. Why? What kind of weird satisfaction are you getting out of this? It’s really sad and pathetic. |
I can be specific on what exactly the silver plated wire ethernet cables did for my system with my previous NUC based music server. The clarity of the music improved. The highs smoothed out- less of that glare. The first time I plugged in one of the better cables the highs sounded worse. I let it break in for a day but it still sounded worse than a cheap cable. Then I thought to turn the cable around and the sound changed for the better- much better. It made streaming sound closer to my CD Transport going into my DAC. I have since moved up to a better DAC which then caused me to have to upgrade my music server as well. My theory is that this DAC and music server, because they both have isolation and re-clocking, they should be less dependent on the digital cables (Ethernet and USB) for good sound. Only right now my system sounds too good to tamper with it. I’m just not motivated to do any additional experimenting. You know, if it is not broken, don’t fix it. Sometime I will, out of curiosity, put some cheap cables in my system to see how this DAC and music server perform. |
soix I'm being truthful and, as an electrical engineer, i know a thing or two about cable/wire electronics and that's how i contribute to this thread. "It’s really sad and pathetic." so you resort to name calling. I will give you an example. A USB cable ABC manufactured by this massive cable factory Sinotek in Shenzen, China. Look it up you will get good ideas about cable manufacturing. 1. You can buy this ABC for $10 on Amazon. 2. Or you come up with an idea so you decorate the cable (with fancy jacket logo printed heat shrink tubing, etc.) oh and dip it in snake oil and sell the same cable for $1000... make sure you (or someone you hired) write a post(s) claiming " it makes a startlingly significant improvement!". Why not? what's wrong with making money. On the other hand you can be a sad person to buy one for 1k when you get to live on a small income. Later
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@classicrockfan Do you believe there are audible differences, either good or bad, in analog cables? |
@jjss49 thanks for this post, I almost spit out my triple latte grand machiato whipped double shot of Kenyan and Ethiopean coffee. |
I’d always thought rejecting noise was a key aspect of better Ethernet cables among other things, but as I was looking into capacitance in speaker cables came across this that maintains it’s also a critical factor in digital data transmission. I had no idea and have never seen this discussed before, and I’m thinking this may be yet another reason why pricier Ethernet cables with better design/materials sound better than the cheapies… Effect of Capacitance on Signal Transmission When the voltage applied to conductors changes, the electric field between them charges or discharges in response. However, this does not occur instantaneously, which leads to a delay in voltage change, as well. The higher the capacitance, the slower the voltage change. For signals such as power or simple input/output circuits, the impact is usually negligible. More complex signals, like those transmitted in data networks and building automation communication circuits, can suffer considerably. Excessive capacitance for high-speed data transmission can cause successive bits to bleed into one another and render the signal unrecognizable to the receiver. When this occurs, system malfunction ensues, and inevitably network users and building occupants notice – and loudly voice – their displeasure. An unreliable system using inadequate cable can quickly lead to expensive rewires and damaged dealer reputations. Designing Cabling for Low Capacitance Typically, low cable capacitance is considered 15 pF/ft. or less. The total amount of capacitance on an installed cable depends on a variety of factors including cable length, insulation thickness, insulation material, and the presence of shielding. Engineers design data cables with these factors in mind to minimize capacitance and promote clear and undistorted signal transmission. |
ghasley Yes for analog interconnect/speaker cables but minor. No (provided that cables are well made) for data cables and power cables. soix A Sinotec data cable can get to you via different routes - comes with device you buy, you can buy one on amazon, or pay crazy amount of money for one that dipped in snake oil. they'll show same performance measurement, good enough that your DAC will be able to recognize 1s and 0s correctly. They can't sell cables if they don't have the data. It's like selling cars without wheels. There's no factory in the USA manufacturing consumer data cables so they all come from Shenzen China. I'm not an industry expert though.
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I am still laughing about cars without wheels analogy as it would hamper the functionality of any 🚘 whereas cable manufacturers don’t required to include measurements to sell cables and it will still perform as intended. Some manufacturers do include measurements data and specs but most don’t. Yet, we hear audible differences among cable brands regardless of asking price. IME, a better built cables unfolds more information that a generic cable simply can’t….don’t take my word for it, if you have the resources and decent system, try it and report back! |
lalitk "cable manufacturers don’t required to include measurements to sell cables and it will still perform as intended. " Yes they are required to present measurement data. If you buy a data cable on amazon or a pair speaker cables from some major brand like Cardas Kimber (they'r not manufacturers) typically you won't get the data sheet. But when Cardas buys their audio cables (bulk) from cable manufacturers like National Wire/Cable, one of few good American factories, or buy data cables from Sinotek China their cables must come with data sheets that include Construction Details (conductor/insulation/shield/outer jacket), Electrical Characteristics (impedance/ capacitance/propagation velocity/max. current/voltage rating/temp range, etc.. I agree that the analogy wasn't a good one. Yes cables do make a difference I don't deny that... but don't have to be stupidly expensive to be an excellent one. oh and what about that snake oil lamp sitting on the cable practically doing nothing. |
There's literally an ocean of different ethernet cables out there, at various price points. And, if you ask what peoples opinions and preferences are in ethernet cables on a forum like this, you're subject to get a thousand different answers. However, at the end of the day, trail and error in your own audio system is the only way to know for certain what sound best in your own audio system. I have found that soliciting ideas recommendations from others can be quite useful and fun. However, at the end of the day (as you probably already know), trail and error is the only way. Happy listening. |
Any thoughts on shielded versus unshielded for Ethernet? I went 'inexpensive' and bought all BlueJeans ethernet cables a few months back, then watched something on YouTube from a face that said Ethernet cables have to have a good screen and it should be connected both ends.....BlueJeans are not shielded and they recommend against it. RooZe |
I researched a fair amount before I upgraded my ethernet cables. Found a few who suggested unshielded Cat6 as the final cable to your streamer. I have 10m of Blue Jeans Horizontal in-wall Cat6a from my router to my wall outlet (to be installed this month). Settled on Triode Wire Labs ’Freedom’ ethernet cables from wall outlet to switch, and then switch to streamer. The TWL Freedom is unshielded Cat 6, copper cable with Telegärtner RJ45 plugs. |
I have seen videos of Cardas assembling their cables. They do not draw the wire themselves. They say the wire is drawn in the Northeast from copper mined in the Southwest. Perhaps the diagonal (ie from Southwest to Northeast) has something to do with the sound. :) Good luck finding a video of audio wire being made (drawn). Everyone holds their cards close to their vest when it comes to turning copper/silver/gold into wire for audio. Cold welding or crimping is the preferred method for attaching terminals to audio cables. I can believe that. Heat based welding could affect the grain structure and temper of the copper wire. Soldering not so much but that is an expensive process compared to crimping. I have experience with crimping from my automotive days. Due to some issues I learned more about crimping wires than I ever cared to learn. The most important fact is that the crimping process must be very well controlled and closely monitored. Insufficient crimping leads to oxidation and failure while too much crimping can crack the housing of the terminal leading to even faster oxidation and failure. That means periodic audits of crimp joints- sectioning and viewing under magnification is required. Something that I have not seen mentioned by any cable makers in their videos. In fact I have only seen cable makers using hand crimp tools which have more variation than automation. The less you flex your cables, the longer they will last. Stress on the crimp joints can loosen the wires over time. Proper crimp joints can last hundreds of thousands of cycles. Less than proper- well, we saw degradation fairly quickly. The only way to tell if a crimp joint is good is to section it. I try not to think about it. Typing this isn't helping. |
