Is there are anyone out there who has compared the Esoteric DV-50 to a number of dedicated red book only players (or other universal's) and found one that is SIGNIFICANTLY better?
I stress significantly because in my humble opinion the redbook playback (if comparison unit is just a cd cd player only )must be significantly better to justify losing DVD-A, SACD and DVD-Video capability.
I keep hearing there are better one box solutions and being a die hard 2 channel fan I would sell my DV-50 if I found a player in the same price range that sounds significantly better. But every time I do an AB comparision to other well respected units the DV-50 has slayed each and every one.
So far, it has eaten the lunch of the Classe CDP-10, Ayre CX-7, Linn Ikemi, Cairn Fog Vers. 2, Cary 306/300, Arcam DV 27A and CD 33T, Myryad CD 600, etc. It even betters a Sony SCD 777ES/MF Tri-Vista 21 transport/dac combo that I previously owned. I'm only comparing the DV-50 to single box cd or universal players, but I just wanted to mention the Sony/MF combo. I'm sure there are some dac/transport combo's that will handily beat the DV 50.
Some may say that the DV 50 should beat all the above because the of price point ($5,500 vs. average price of $3,000 for the above players). But I disagree since conventional wisdom says that stand alone players (especially with the pedigree of those mentioned above) should produce better redbook than a universal player trying to be a jack of all trades. Only the DV 27A does video plus audio. By the way, I was very impressed with the 27A as just a cd player. Of all the above I would say the Ayre was the best.
Next on my list is the Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP and the Resolution Audio Opus 21. However, I must tell you I am really impressed with the DV 50 and all the great reviews are absolutely true. I've noticed that many people who are using it or comparing to other players are using the RCA analog outs instead of the balanced outs. There is a significant improvement in sound if you use the balanced outs and I'm only interested in hearing comments from people who have compared it against other players using the balanced outs on the DV-50.
My system components are as follows:
B&W N803's speakers & HTM-1 center Cary Cinema 5 (5 x 200) amp Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro Esoteric DV 50 Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker wire Nirvana SX balanced interconnects from DV-50 to Anthem Acoustic Zen Matrix reference II interconnects from D1 to Cary No after market power cords or isolation equipment
My system sounds great! Those who comment please make sure to specify what specific improvements you heard over the DV 50 and what cdp were you comparing it against.
You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am mine. Furthermore, I never accused you on this or any other forum of working for APL. However, others have accused you of just that ...both here and on other threads of your own origin. You know what they say, perception is reality.
In regards to a loss of respect, I'm not looking for yours or anyone else's respect here in this forum or any other arena in my life. I learned long ago that seeking other's approval or validation of what I do and who I am is pointless. In the end I am only accountable to myself, my family and God.
But I will say this..for you to lose respect for me because I (AND OTHERS) heard something in another unit that you did not hear or agree with is idiotic and shows a lack of tolerance on your part for others opinions. And just because the designer of the unit agrees with you does not change anything in my hearing or what I perceive. Last time I checked hearing and taste was a subjective thing. And for the record I never said the Sony was more or less accurate (that was your terminology) than the APL. I only said I enjoyed the performance of the Modwright Sony more than the APL.
Finally, I'm not going to trade barbs with you over this thread in terms of who has an AUDIOPHILE system but I'm quite happy with my B&W N803's/Vienna Acoustic Beethoven's/Anthem D1 processor/Cary Cinema 5 amp and dual cdp's of Classe CDP 100/Marantz SA 14 transport paired with a Tri-Vista 21 dac. I'll let others pass judgement on whether or not its at an audiophile system. My only goal is to enjoy it.
Brian - Please go for it with whatever pieces you have available. That will mean fewer when the next couple of pieces come along for the next session (I don't like calling it a shootout).
Tvad has a point though, if you don't hear differences right away, if they are subtle, too many pieces to compare can quickly become a burden rather than fun.
Tvad - Don't you know yet...it is never-ending!!!!!!!!!
OK, OK...yes Guido, I still have DAC.
Dave
Folks - keep it light. This shouldn't make people mad. It is just stereo equipment.
I believe if the system we're listening to is transparent enough we will definitely be able to hear general and sonic characteris/differences between each unit and what one unit does better (or worse) than another.
From my personal experience I would say that over the years I've agreed with about 90% of what John Atkinson of Stereophile has said about the pariticular sonic characteristics of individual gear (of course after listening to it in my own system). And ususally John listens to a piece of gear in three or more different systems before making a final assessment.
Now your point as to whether or not these particular sonic characteristics are desirable or make "improvements" to a particular system are valid. That will be up to the individual to decide. As you've always stressed through out your posts, no one should buy anything before they've had a chance to audition it themselves. This shootout is only a guide.
However, I will say this (and your opinion may differ). If I am fortunate enough to get a really great piece of gear that's a reference piece and is known to have set a sonic standard in its class (i.e Halcro 58 amp, etc), even if it did not sound good in my system I'd probably abandon that system and re-tool it around that piece.
I believe in working around the strength of one's system and tailoring it around the component (or components) that bring the most to the table. Any system can be properly synergized to reach its maximum potential. Its just a matter of finding the proper fit of components, cables, etc.
Tvad, of course you're right, big grains of salt all around. Listening to something in your own system is the ultimate test. This so called shootout can't be definitive as to which is best, although we're doing our best to keep things relatively objective, which of course they never are. Now, if everyone owned Sound Lab speakers that'd be a big step in the right direction from my perspective (is my dealer fin showing?) :-) Brian
Charles AKA AVGURU, you are a horses ASS, put your $$$ where your mouth is already. I hope you like your Marantz SA14. BTW I am available this weekend, and have always been as gracious and HONEST as possible, even to the point of offering my players for audition without being there. I really do not care what you personnaly think Charles, for I lost respect for you when you told me you felt Bons modded Sony 9000 was more accurate than the APL or the Exdemplar. Dan Wright himself told me this is not the case, it is made to be more musical, not accurate. Dan also told me his new 3910 should be leages ahead of his earlier mods. This is a personal journey for me to find the digital I love most, than share my feelings freely on audio sites. I have never attacked you, or put you down, in fact the only real reason you have come this far is MY love for MY journey, and ME driving 60 miles to your home and letting you experience modified player by 2 genious's(John Tucker, and Alex Peychev). Where you favor Bons modwright for Accuracy, I do not. I do love what Dan does with his mods, Thus, again, I put my money where my mouth is, unlike you, I do not sit on the sidelines. You should be VERY CAREFUL what you put into print. It WILL come back to haunt you Mr. Moderator.
Best of luck your journey, and look forward to participating with Brian at his home, and listening to his AUDIOPHILE system.
I AM NOT AFFILIATED WITH APL HIFI IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. I AM JUST A HAPPY CUSTOMER OF APL, EXEMPLAR, MODWRIGHT, WAVELENGTH, DENON, SONY, PIONEER, SVS, NOSVALVES, PATHOS, KLIPSCH, REIMER, TIVO, B&K, ECT.
I MAKE MY OWN MONEY BY WORKING FOR A LIVING, NOT SELLING AUDIO
Avguru, 711smilin just called to say he plans to make it, so perhaps you were thinking of someone else...anyway, we are ON for Saturday... Mark, hope you can make it over sometime for a listen...give me a call sometime, as would love to chat. I'll be contacting the person with the EMMlabs CDSD and DAC6e to try to make arrangements for Saturday.
Sheesh! When can everyone make it? Puh-leeze email me or call me, folks, with the dates you have open - weekends are much preferred, but please keep in mind some flexibility is needed for customer auditions... I realize not everyone may be able to make it, but we need to set a date and stick with it... Brian 847-382-8433
I got your e-mail. Neither 1MarkR (newly Wright modified 999ES) or 711 (APL 3910 & Modwright 3910) are available. I really think we should wait. Actually, 711 is still waiting for Dan Wright to complete his mod of the 3910 so its not even in his possession. 1Markr just received his unit this week and is still trying to log in burn-in time.
I think having these three components in the contest are critical. Although 711 has invited me to pick up his 3910 to bring to the shoot-out (sans 711), there is no way in h*ll I want to conduct a shoot-out without his presence!
Since he has been so loquacious and adamantly fervent about how great the APL gear is I want to see his reactions and hear his comments when other gear at the shoot-out is equal if not superior. Just watching his reactions is worth the price of admission! Addtionally, there a host of people on this forum who bought the APL 3910 based on his accolades. So I want them to hear whatever conclusions are drawn from the shootout from the horses mouth.
Brian, I'll contact you privately by phone so we can reschedule. I know you want to move forward ASAP but since we probably only have one shot at doing this thing right I want to make sure we take full advantage and have as many participants (as time and space permits) as possible.
Brian, I agree with Tim (Tbabb) re selection of tracks. Redbook and hi-rez should be a/b'd; also try to include different genres - after all, the challenges presented by large orchestral music are different than those presented by acoustic jazz or rock. I'm looking forward to reading the results/observations.
We should agree on specific tracks from Redbook and hi-rez, and tracks that are available on both formats. We should keep this to a bare minimum and the tracks should allow us to guage the strengths and weaknesses of a particular front end.
Once we narrow down the field to a few units perhaps the music variety could be expanded. Just a thought...
I won't be able to make the cut because of scheduling issues, plus my ModWright Sony 999ES is not arriving until the end of the week. Obviously it will need an adequate break-in time to sound its best. My wonderful Audio Aero DAC will also not be present.
You guys have a great shootout! I hope I can join you in the next round.
Please try and include the Audio Note 3.1x. It is a completely different approach to digital. It would be interesting to see how it fairs against the other players.
Is their any way to put a cover over the player being used so that people are not influenced by their perceptions of how each player SHOULD sound? This would make for a much more authentic comparison.
Because of discussions that have happened already throughout this thread (when it stays on topic) I would suggest the following:
(1) APL modded Denon 3910 (2) modified Esoteric DV-50 (Superclock 3) (3) EMMlabs transport and DAC (4) Esoteric X01 (5) Sony SCD-777ES Richard Kern modified (6) Modwright Sony 9000es (or Modwright Sony 999es but not bothÂ…we know it is really good already)
And save these and the "other" Modwright Sony for another time: (7) Audio Aero DAC (8) Audio Note 3.1x DAC
At least the players listed above are the ones that have stirred curiosity and surprise already. It would be nice to whittle down to a reference one or two then have you guys get together again sometime to check out the Audio Aero, the Audio Note, and the remaining Modwright Sony, as well as one or two others. I for one am very interested in SteveÂ’s Modwright 3910 when he gets it. That alone should be enough reason the get back together.
The digital shootout is scheduled for this coming Saturday, Feb. 5th, starting around 1pm at my house. People who I think will participate include, in no particular order: Steve (711smilin), Charles (Avguru), Bon (Jayctoy), Mark (1markr), Tom (Tgun5), Tim Babb, Henry Sadovsky, and Bob Youman.
Equipment proposed for the comparisons, in no special order: (A) APL modded Denon 3910 (B) modified Esoteric DV-50 (Superclock 3) (C) Modwright Sony 9000es (D) Modwright Sony 999es (E) Sony SCD-777ES Richard Kern modified (F) Esoteric X01 (G) Audio Aero DAC (H) Audio Note 3.1x DAC (I) EMMlabs transport and DAC
And that's not counting my digital setup, consisting of modified G&D Transforms transport and Entec Number Cruncher DAC; they are redbook only and haven't been available for several years but continue to fare very well against others...we'll see. My transport can be used for the DACs being brought.
I think there are too many players, so we need to whittle down the list to five or six at most, not counting my rig.
I know there's a lot of personal pride at stake, but I hope each of you will look at things as objectively as possible and help decide which ones shouldn't be included in the shootout. What is chosen for the comparisons doesn't necessarily reflect on how good it is, just the level of interest in it being compared.
Maybe the best way is for everyone to vote by ranking each of the above in terms of your interest in hearing it and comparing it. Rank from 1 to 9, since there are 9 listed. Post the letter and the number, where 1 is highest interest and 9 is lowest interest, for example B3. This way it will be easiest to tally the votes. Post your votes here or email them to me.
Again, I strongly encourage bringing or delivering the gear ahead of time so it can be warmed up. If you have a favorite power cord you use, bring it, and please remember the remote control.
I will have a few redbook CD tracks to play for the comparisons and invite suggestions of tracks, both redbook and hi-rez.
I would not presume to be the expert on such a matter. Only experience can really tell. The evaluations done in this thread are the first ones that have ever captured my interest.
I think as you go through the day with the various "contenders", you would be able to tell when the "point of diminishing returns" is reached.
Perhaps that is Tgun5's motive for supplying the Pinot Grigio. Perhaps it depends on how many bottles he brings with him:-).
Reeling the thread back a moment, I get the impression there are many players in the queue for the next get-together. I really hope Tgun5's modified DV-50 makes it into the mix. In the spirit of this threadÂ’s origin, it would be interesting to see now Tgun5Â’s DV-50 measures up to 711smilinÂ’s APL or even the modded Sony. It would be nice too if the new McIntosh 861 was thereÂ…but too many players and too many people could really dilute the effectiveness of the meeting. I wish this sort of thing went on near Philly.
your only jealous cos you aint no good with a soldering iron and you aint no good at physics and by the sounds of it you aint no good at medicine either.
Ah boy does it feel so good to be so multi talented as me.
Once again Guido you have managed to lower the tone of this forum.
You are such a hippocrite ( and a jalous guy)just look at your own message on 28/1/05.
Doc Luke, planning to modify a modified player? You might as well admit it. You are suffering from a pernicious case of DAC, in its most advanced form. Not even Schmalttzenstein & Pugnetti have yet described as rare and devastating a case as yours!
it is near impossible for me to get an apl off alex at the moment because of various circumstances. This one was bought used from audiogon and I had to pay over the top for it, such is the rariry and design for his units. So I believe it must have been fully broken in when I got it. However that might not be so, so i will continue to burn it in before I start modding it.
Hi Guys its the Doc again. Thought as you kinds wanted the threads to stick to its original intemt, I have a review you might be interetsed in.
I at last managed to get the FULL APL modded sacd, clock, dac etc.
I was able to run it via an isolation transformer to uk 240v. Boy what a difference the isolation transformer made as opposed to a simple step down transformer but thats another story.
I compared it to my highly modified Marantz 8400 tansport, clock, black gates etc etc. with the REIMYO DAP 777.
Absolutely no contest. The APL was superior in every way possible. The best cd player I have ever heard, closer to realism than I have ever heard redbook cd get to.
I do believe however that there is more to be got from the SACD1000. These will be my modifications in the next few weeks and I will report any further improvements.
1)High quality isolation transformer. 2)Exchange all the power cables for silver coated copper in a dielectic sleeve of teflon. 3)Exchange the very thick (?.4mm)silver coated interconnect cables between the DAC /valve output and transformer out puts to .15mm. 4) change the phono outputs to rhodium plated ones and their ?brass interconnects to fine silver coated copper ones.
There are more tweaks but this will do for now.
I am certain that these tweaks will ring out more fine detail, spatial information and aid transparency further.
I will also bring some fine Ohio Pinot Grigio. The islands in Lake Erie have consistently produced some of the finest wine grapes in the world. The weather is considered perfect because of the lake controlled temperature. There is a winery in Sandusky that has produced many gold medal winning wines. The Pinot Grigio is one of them. This winery, Firelands, now owns the island vineyards that were previously owned by Meiers Winery - now owned by Paramount Distillers. Meier's claim to fame was their nationally famous Cold Duck. Firelands now produces many world class wines, and in addition to the Pinot Grigio, they have won awards for their Ice Wine, Walleye White, and Riesling. They bottle under the brands Firelands and Mon Ami.
Should I mention Cigars? HEHE. Too many hobbies, too little money.
Hey, you guys are too serious. I was only joking about not having alcohol at the shootout.
How often are fanatical audio folks who frequent this site able to get together. That's right, NEVER.
I hope everybody gets really sh** faced and has a great time! With all the great equipment, music, and stories, I'm certain you all will. Wish I could be there!!
Folks, please concentrate on the topic at hand and avoid metadiscussions on matters that are potentially unproductive and sociological controversial, such as the nature, chemical content, and social function of beverages. Thank you for your understanding and patience and for keeping the thread free of extraneous controversy. Your friendly neighbourhood Assistant Moderator
i know it's all relative, but i think that aside from my feeling that shootouts with multiple people accomplish nothing, (because of human nature, one person inevitably assumes the alpha role and the others become very influenced by his opinion, etc), at least you can have a drink or two to lighten the atmosphere of (hopefully) good company.
we're not trying to cure cancer here, folks! have some fun and enjoy the music. (alcohol helps immensely in that regard)
I'm quite surprised about the over-reaction regarding my beer comment. I wouldn't drive five hours just to attend a drunken party. I also think that distance I'm coming shows my committment to the hobby. On the other hand, I would hope this is a casual event and if wine is offered, I'll gladly have a glass. (or two) Tom Roberts
Sammie, I'm basically with you as far as what beverages should and shouldn't be consumed at the shootout, but keep in mind it's not a court trial or something really serious - it's just audio. If someone wants to have a beer or glass of wine that's OK, but it's not the reason for being there, and the auditions will be controlled as well as possible.
I've spoken with 711smilin (Steve) and Avguru (Charles), and it sounds as though things are coming together for an interesting, useful comparison of several contenders. Charles said he is working on an evaluation form which he may post for comment, that we'll try to use and will report the results from.
I'll try to post a list of people planning to participate, as well as the list of proposed components for the comparison. For those of you participating, I'd really appreciate you contacting me as soon as possible, to confirm what time you'll show up and leave and what you plan to bring. Tentatively we'll start around 1pm - if you aren't bringing or sending your component a day or two ahead of time, show up a little early to set up. I'd like to schedule people at a couple of times, though, as I can only fit so many people in the room at once and it would be nice to avoid confusion and overcrowding.
For those of you bringing components for the comparison, there are a few things I need to know: - single ended, balanced, or both outputs? - tube output stage, or solid state? - volume control built in? If so, can it be bypassed? - anything else that comes to mind
Depending upon the answers to the above questions, we'll use either the CTC Blowtorch or Atma-Sphere MP-3 preamp for use with your component. The Blowtorch may be a better overall choice as a totally neutral and revealing unit, although tube outputs may not be able to drive the 10K pots properly, and it has single ended inputs only.
I can be contacted by email at brian(at)essentialaudio(dot)com or by phone at 847-382-8433. Thanks!
Hey, I'm gonna have to take a stand here, although I haven't contributed anything yet to this hilarious post.
Anyway, should alcohol allowed at the "Shootout?" I mean, don't we want non-intoxicated reviewers who are actually able to critically evaluate each player instead of being lulled to sleep?
I'm not comfortable with that...I'm not comfortable with that at all.
The DV-50 (Superclock 3) is now fully burned -in and ready for battle. I'm anxious to attend the shootout. How will the power cord and isolation issues be handled? I asume we bring our favorite cords, but isolation can also change the outcome. Any thoughts of using the same (or none) on each player. Just wondering...
AVGURU, PSCIALLI had a stock Denon 2200 for a brief spell and found it rather disappointing, even after upgrading the powerchord. He is now in audio Nirvana with his ModWrite Sony 999ES Platinum.
That's even more disappointing when you consider a few audio mag's felt the 2200 outperformed the 2900 in terms of redbook performance. (The 2900 was better in SACD but DVD-A was about the same). I know I had both units at my home for about 3 days and I also came to that conclusion.
Diw - interesting point you make, and if true, it may explain how the British magazine, Hifi News which is probably the most respected UK journal, reckoned the 3910 didn't reach the same sonic standards of the 2900.
is the DAC in the 3910 actually better than the DACs in the 2900/5900? I know its newer, but I had the impression that it was cheaper and not as high quality. Am I correct?
I think the power supply is stronger and more complex on the 3910 also. It is also substantially bigger although there is no greater room within to do mods.
The DACs and Digital stage of the 3910 is much better than the 2900. With stock players you can't tell this difference because the analog stage is so bad in both players. Once the analog stage is brought up to snuff (as done by many of the modders) the difference (improvements) really come to the surface. Also the 2900 has been discontinued so the modders dont want to tackle something where the parts are going to be increasingly hard to come by.
Musicfirst, I made it from the ilness. I am going trough my emails and phone calls slowly but surely. Did we get in touch? If not, please email me.
The 3910 has a slightly better signal processor for the PCM (CD, DVD-A). The difference is subtle. The SACD processing of 3910 and 2900 is identical. The 2900 achieves the same performance as the 3910 when it comes to my re-design (modification). The problem is that I can not preserve the video capabilites of the 2900 due to limited space in its enclosure.
When it comes to why there is a big difference between 2900 and 3910 with other well respected modding companies is because the DACs and PCB layout of the 3910 are much more advanced than the ones used in 2900. As for the actual transports - they are identical.
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