Sounds as though you all had fun. Although the overall results aren't too surprising they're quite interesting. Seems the modded players did at least as well as the other units auditioned. But then I'd have to hear it for myself in a high resolution system. For what it's worth, I'd put my tweaked, no longer available, redbook gear up against anything else out there regardless of cost. I have nothing to gain by saying this since I don't currently sell any digital equipment unless you count cables, but you're all welcome to bring on all challengers sometime and see how they do. Allow plenty of time for equipment warmup (my transport takes a long time which is why it's always on) and stay for pizza. I'm in the northwest suburbs. My system listing can be found at http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/237.html
Brian |
Next door? David and I corresponded, and he is interested in a shootout although he won't be able to attend on the 19th. We know each other as he used to own a Blowtorch preamp. Very likeable, charismatic fellow.
Brian |
I'll have the Atma-Sphere amps and preamp as well :-)
Brian |
Avguru, if and when there's a shootout between the Meitner and others, I'm all for it. I don't know if QA will want some of that gear coming in the door, but who knows. Looking forward to hearing 711's APL 3910, Jayctoy's Modwright'd Sony, Tim's Kern'd Sony 777, and any others that come to mind. Probably should get a headcount on those interested in coming over on the 19th, so would appreciate RSVPs.
Brian |
Mark, you gotta get here early! :-) Seriously, anywhere is great; the middle is a little better. No beaming. You guys can play musical chairs if you like.
Brian |
Avguru, I have two preamps: a CTC Blowtorch (single ended inputs) and an Atma-Sphere MP-3 (balanced inputs, single ended adaptors available). I just do two channel the best I can :-)
I wish I could make the get together this Saturday but have another commitment.
My house and room are of limited size. We probably have reached maximum capacity for this session. There can be more. Next week I'll email directions to those of you participating.
Brian |
Steve, I can't make the 18th as I've blocked out the day for a customer coming in from out of town for a big audition. The 19th, afternoon or evening, is what I have available. Any other time between now and January is tricky. Go ahead with your own schedule as you wish and we'll figure out something down the road. I think David's moniker is Deshapiro.
Brian |
I'm afraid I'm going to have to cancel the get together at my house next Sunday. I am extremely busy at work and have a deadline to meet. I will be very happy to host a session in January, probably after CES which I will be attending. Meanwhile, perhaps someone else is willing to host.
I apologize to all concerned for the cancellation, but I'm afraid time is of the essence.
Brian |
Guys, sorry I had to postpone the shootout, but let's get together soon. We had an awesome day today with the demo, driving the Sound Labs with Atma-Sphere, Wolcott, CAT, and Parasound amps. I have the photos to prove it :-)
Brian |
If you fellows around Chicago are interested in a get together here after CES for listening and comparisons, I'm up for it. Sorry I had to cancel the Dec. 19th thing.
Brian |
Avguru et al.: How about a week from Saturday (Jan 29), here?
Brian |
Update: Steve (711smilin) called, and it looks as though the listening and comparison session is on for next Saturday, the 29th. Probably from 1pm till ?
For planning please email me with your preferred time, afternoon or evening, in case there are more people than space available, and I'll send you directions. Preference will be given to those bringing a player mentioned previously in this thread, but all are welcome. BYOB if you like, I'll provide all the munchies, soft drinks and water. For an idea at the back end of the system, click the "click here" link near the top of the products page on my website (my username, .com). Please let me know whether your player has single ended, balanced, or both kinds of outputs.
Brian |
OK, then will all concerned please propose the date. The following Saturday, Feb. 5th? Let's get the date reserved as soon as possible, as I have some other commitments.
All planning to attend, please RSVP because space is limited and be sure to indicate afternoon or evening, as we probably need to have two sessions. If you're bringing a player, please let me know well in advance, including details on its features. Since there will be quite a few players involved in the comparison, a little planning can go a long way. Anyone wanting to bring their player over a day or three early to plug in and warm up is welcome to do so.
I can be reached by email through this site or by phone at , preferably evenings and weekends.
Thanks.
Brian |
For some unexplained reason my phone number got deleted from my post. It is 847-382-8433. |
Beer? Seriously, Tom, you're welcome to join us. As soon as everyone lets me know when they can make it, date and time, along with what they'd like to demo, I'll post the info.
Brian |
Sammie, I'm basically with you as far as what beverages should and shouldn't be consumed at the shootout, but keep in mind it's not a court trial or something really serious - it's just audio. If someone wants to have a beer or glass of wine that's OK, but it's not the reason for being there, and the auditions will be controlled as well as possible.
I've spoken with 711smilin (Steve) and Avguru (Charles), and it sounds as though things are coming together for an interesting, useful comparison of several contenders. Charles said he is working on an evaluation form which he may post for comment, that we'll try to use and will report the results from.
I'll try to post a list of people planning to participate, as well as the list of proposed components for the comparison. For those of you participating, I'd really appreciate you contacting me as soon as possible, to confirm what time you'll show up and leave and what you plan to bring. Tentatively we'll start around 1pm - if you aren't bringing or sending your component a day or two ahead of time, show up a little early to set up. I'd like to schedule people at a couple of times, though, as I can only fit so many people in the room at once and it would be nice to avoid confusion and overcrowding.
For those of you bringing components for the comparison, there are a few things I need to know:
- single ended, balanced, or both outputs?
- tube output stage, or solid state?
- volume control built in? If so, can it be bypassed?
- anything else that comes to mind
Depending upon the answers to the above questions, we'll use either the CTC Blowtorch or Atma-Sphere MP-3 preamp for use with your component. The Blowtorch may be a better overall choice as a totally neutral and revealing unit, although tube outputs may not be able to drive the 10K pots properly, and it has single ended inputs only.
I can be contacted by email at brian(at)essentialaudio(dot)com or by phone at 847-382-8433. Thanks!
Brian |
Tom, the wine sounds like a good idea for later on, after the rigorous comparisons are done and people just want to listen.
I don't allow smoking in the house, although people are free to step outside. |
Dbld, how many contenders do you suggest? We've hashed this out a bit but your thoughts are appreciated.
Brian |
The digital shootout is scheduled for this coming Saturday, Feb. 5th, starting around 1pm at my house.
People who I think will participate include, in no particular order:
Steve (711smilin), Charles (Avguru), Bon (Jayctoy), Mark (1markr), Tom (Tgun5), Tim Babb, Henry Sadovsky, and Bob Youman.
Equipment proposed for the comparisons, in no special order:
(A) APL modded Denon 3910
(B) modified Esoteric DV-50 (Superclock 3)
(C) Modwright Sony 9000es
(D) Modwright Sony 999es
(E) Sony SCD-777ES Richard Kern modified
(F) Esoteric X01
(G) Audio Aero DAC
(H) Audio Note 3.1x DAC
(I) EMMlabs transport and DAC
And that's not counting my digital setup, consisting of modified G&D Transforms transport and Entec Number Cruncher DAC; they are redbook only and haven't been available for several years but continue to fare very well against others...we'll see. My transport can be used for the DACs being brought.
I think there are too many players, so we need to whittle down the list to five or six at most, not counting my rig.
I know there's a lot of personal pride at stake, but I hope each of you will look at things as objectively as possible and help decide which ones shouldn't be included in the shootout. What is chosen for the comparisons doesn't necessarily reflect on how good it is, just the level of interest in it being compared.
Maybe the best way is for everyone to vote by ranking each of the above in terms of your interest in hearing it and comparing it. Rank from 1 to 9, since there are 9 listed. Post the letter and the number, where 1 is highest interest and 9 is lowest interest, for example B3. This way it will be easiest to tally the votes. Post your votes here or email them to me.
Again, I strongly encourage bringing or delivering the gear ahead of time so it can be warmed up. If you have a favorite power cord you use, bring it, and please remember the remote control.
I will have a few redbook CD tracks to play for the comparisons and invite suggestions of tracks, both redbook and hi-rez.
Brian
847-382-8433 |
Sheesh! When can everyone make it? Puh-leeze email me or call me, folks, with the dates you have open - weekends are much preferred, but please keep in mind some flexibility is needed for customer auditions... I realize not everyone may be able to make it, but we need to set a date and stick with it...
Brian
847-382-8433 |
Avguru, 711smilin just called to say he plans to make it, so perhaps you were thinking of someone else...anyway, we are ON for Saturday... Mark, hope you can make it over sometime for a listen...give me a call sometime, as would love to chat. I'll be contacting the person with the EMMlabs CDSD and DAC6e to try to make arrangements for Saturday.
Brian |
Tvad, of course you're right, big grains of salt all around. Listening to something in your own system is the ultimate test. This so called shootout can't be definitive as to which is best, although we're doing our best to keep things relatively objective, which of course they never are. Now, if everyone owned Sound Lab speakers that'd be a big step in the right direction from my perspective (is my dealer fin showing?) :-)
Brian |
Springbok, not to worry - anyone who gets out of hand will be asked to leave. This comparison is being done in my home, and despite the mudslinging that has occurred in the past couple of days (which by the way I find distasteful and disrespectful) I anticipate a very civil, enjoyable time will be had by all. It's all about the music, guys! Tom from Ohio just called and is confirmed to be bringing his modded DV50. :-)
Brian |
Hi Bon, it's great to hear you'll be able to make it! 3pm or so is fine, as we'll be playing around long past then.
I should ask the rest of you who haven't yet confirmed with me that you'll attend to please do so by noon on Friday that you will attend, and I will provide you with directions to my house. Otherwise I think it's fair for me to allow others not previously mentioned to attend, who have asked if there is room. I hope this is acceptable and doesn't sound demanding.
Brian |
Hi 711, I sent you the directions a little while ago. Don't bother with a switchbox.
Brian |
Well, the gang just left. Jayctoy, 711smilin, Tgun5 and a couple others (Tgun5's sister and Eric, another local enthusiast) showed up and we listened to Jayctoy's Modwright Sony 9000es, 711smilin's APL Denon 3910, and Tgun5's modded DV50 with the Superclock3.
The system consisted of each player using a TG Audio SLVR power cord, TG Audio HSR High Purity single ended interconnects, CTC Blowtorch preamp, Purist Colossus balanced ICs to Parasound JC-1 monoblocks, TG Audio HSR speaker cables, and Sound Lab Ultimate-1 speakers. Line conditioners/filters used were TG Audio BybeeSucker and Creative Cable Concepts Blue Lightning plugged into Acme Audio cryo'd silver plated AC outlets. Room treatment consists of Sound Lab Sallies and ASC Tube Traps behind the speakers and a tapestry on the wall behind the speakers. Before the shootout we listened a bit through my digital front end, which was removed from the system to accommodate the other players.
The outcome? My answer might sound like a cop out, but I don't think there was a clear consensus. Some of us had similar comments but different preferences. If there was one thing we agreed upon it was that before anyone considers changing from one of these players to another, they might think twice, because they all have their strengths and are all very good. How one works in your system depends on the rest of the gear.
Hats off to all of the friendly folks who came and made for a very fun day for everyone. Thanks to Tom and Steve who both brought excellent wines which were consumed in moderation and enjoyed by all. Lots of laughs and good listening, both serious and casual. We filled out score cards to rank each, but the results were very close.
Perhaps there will be more shootouts, and I look forward to attending and, if people would like, hosting more in the future. What a great way to spend an afternoon, evening, or both with warm new and old acquaintances with a shared passion for music and fine sound in the home.
Brian |
Gee, Tom, did I say that? I was sitting way off to the side, although I found the DV-50 a bit more musical and involving than the APL although the Modwright did very well in these areas, while the APL and DV-50 had more detail and tighter bass. I'll look at my scorecard and the others to see if the numbers reflect that.
Brian |
By the way, my Nils Lofgren CD seems to be missing :-(
Please look through your CD cases and players just in case. I offer a reward for its return.
Brian |
I wasn't accusing anyone and apologize if it sounded that way. It might have been put in another CD case accidentally. I looked around, but you never know, it might turn up.
Brian |
Audio_girl, speaking of uncalled for remarks, you might take a look at yours. While I had a _slight_ preference for the modded DV-50 based upon limited listening well off center, that's what it was - slight. I could happily live with any of the three. I would prefer to let the others weigh in with their opinions, as they have more experience with them.
And yes, I agree with Kerry - let's post the list of CDs and cuts played. I don't have the list but know several of you wrote them down.
Brian |
Hey Jayctoy, maybe in the middle of having fun you forgot I'm a dealer, too. :-)
Spoke with 711 today, who kindly called to say he found my CD that was left in his player by accident. We'll see if he has anything to say here.
Brian |
A few comments in response to 711's post.
First of all, with regards to the system being dialed in. While by my own admission the speakers had been inadvertently moved due to some moving things around in the system, the rest of the system _was_ dialed in and warmed up. Steve, let me know when your system stops being a moving target or you go nuts, whichever comes first ;-) As for what sounds 'right' to one person, it's a subjective matter. Steve, I invite you and everyone else to come back, and we can use any of the electronics desired, tube or solid state. And I hope Charles (Avguru) will join us.
Second, the same kinds of cabling, etc. were used on all players in the comparison, so your statement is inaccurate.
I'm not a believer in blind testing, certainly not ABX double blind testing, but there's not much point to opening that can of worms. However, I firmly contend that any kind of switching device is a source of distortion and noise which masks differences, as I've never heard a system have high resolution when one is in place - and I've been into high end for over 30 years. The method of playing the six tracks sequentially on each player was to limit the number of connections and disconnections of interconnects that had to be made (and wear and tear on the connectors).
I disagree with the majority opinion prevailing, aka the herd mentality. Just as people perceive and appreciate a painting or wine differently, there is room for interpretation of music reproduction and expression of personal preference. It isn't a black and white, right or wrong decision. What kinds of cheese do you like? I'm sure some I prefer differ from yours.
Brian |
Lazarus28: extra sharp cheddar for me, too - the older the better! But then I've been known to consume processed cheese spreads as well - although I can't remember having Cheez Whiz, I'm willing to try almost anything once, provided it is served at the proper temperature :-) |
Was it WC Fields who said, "Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink."
Tgun5: how much is the TJR Magnavox with cryo treatment?
Brian |
Sean, based upon my limited exposure to the other units I'll keep the G&D/Entec but am always open to suggestions. We didn't listen to the combo except for a while before the other players were put in, and not all were present to hear it. Anyone wanting to hear it is welcome to come by and compare it against theirs or my turntable - a Rockport was used as a reference for voicing the G&D/Entec.
I find some of the other posts to this thread to be (pick as many as you wish) misleading, entertaining, confusing, indignant, funny, misguided, and/or having vested interests. And some others are informative and insightful. Yet some feel an obligation to defend their choices to the death but deny it. Life's too short for that. One shouldn't forget it's all about the music and enjoying it.
Brian |
