smilin, I am still not disposed to trusting what you hear for any of my choices, but I do wish Alex had sent me a unit to listen to given all you have said about it. |
Springbok, I share your exhaustion with this list. I think apart from your requirement for balanced outputs, there are many alternatives. I am unsure what you mean by 2 channel only. Does it mean no multichannel or having alternative 2 channel outputs? I have yet to find a player that does not sound better through a active preamp. My recommendation would be to listen to several units, hopefully in your own room and make a choice. |
Alex, in the digital domain, do you not lose information with declining volume setting. At least with the dCS gear, lower volumes in the digital domain sounded like they had a substantial loss of resolution.
With the H-Cat there is no added distortions, noise, or frequency alterations. |
Springbok, I think your aversion to having a mc unit but using only the stereo left and right output is a tad illogical, but I fully understand your desire to play to the best features of your preamp. Does the DCC2 have balanced outputs? I had only the DAC6 and know the DAC8 has only balanced outputs. I agree that your insistence on balanced outs does limit your options. I would also strongly urge you to avoid the Phillips sacd 1000. It maybe that the old Luxman sacd player had balanced outputs and there is one for sale with Exemplar mods., but the Exemplar 2900 is far superior and the Exemplar 3910 embarasses it . Life is tough.
Merry Christmas |
Springbok, I cannot say anything about the other moders, but Exemplar did assume the warranty lost from Denon when a part went out on my 3910. Unlike TEAC, the unit was repaired and on its way back the same day it was received.
I do think that when you choose the mod. route you can expect fewer waranty repairs as part of the money you are saving going this route. I chose the Exemplar not because it was far cheaper than my EMM or dCS gear but because it was better. |
I wish I could participate in comparing these units, but Texas is just too far away. My Exemplar/Denon 3910 is so superior to anything else I have ever heard that I just find it hard to believe there are better units. Its dynamics and fidelity to the recording event continually cause me to drop everything and just listen. I should say this is only after 300 plus hours on the unit. |
Avguru, please bear in mind that the Exemplar needs 300 hours on it! I really doubt whether you have heard the Exemplar/Denon 3910 at its best given necessary breakin or complete modification. I have not heard recent Dan Wright mods and am unlikely to, but in earlier versions I did not find them to have the pace and dynamics of music. I will, however, soon have one of Alex's 3910s.
There is another complication in my consideration, the Einstein cd player. I will hear it at CES, but early reports are very positive. I would really miss hearing HDCDs as I can on the Denon 3910, however. Then there are the computer based replay systems, such as VRS. I have twice heard the VRS and never liked it, but others say it is outstanding.
You realize, I hope, that your evaluations hold for only about six months. There will be newer and better units by then. Isn't the edge of the art exciting and expensive? |
I think shootouts are useless. Where it possible to capture the comparison in a truly revealing system in a great room and make this available to all for their personal evaluation, we could move ahead on this. But in any shootout there will be no consensus, there is no use of a perfect evaluations of the contributions of each component being evaluated, and no weighing of the benefit per dollar of each.
Better than a year ago at the VSAC sessions in Silverdale, John Tucker's, Dan Wright's, Alex Pachec's, and Allen Wright's mods were compared with the same music in the same space. The room was terrible but there were perhaps a hundred people listening. No poll was taken, but from my conversations afterwards I heard praise for all of the units and all characterized as the best. I personally declined to make such a decision.
About a year ago, I decided to evaluate all of what I thought were the best ac line filters. This cost me a good deal of money and drove me to dispair given the multiple combinations of which units in my system sounded best with which filter. Today I have none of these units in my system despite being very impressed with many of them. All of them had many positive reviews and much endorsement on Audiogon and AA. |
Guidocorona, please don't assume that I am a Texan. Yes, I have lived here for 25 years, but I have also lived in Missouri, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, California, Florida, New York, and Pennsylvania. Shootouts are not a communal activity but rather a sincere desire to get the best you can get or the best for the money. I understand this, but from personal experience I also know there will be little consensus and that one frequently likes some strengths of various units.
Yes, they can be fun and escape from more mundane aspects of daily life, but it is like going to a car show. It fills your hours and resolves little. In one car show I found that the only BMW, I could sit up in was the Z3. |
Diw, because of the quality of the 2 channel sound. I cannot afford the quality that I have in my two channel system for more channels, especially as the demonstrations that I have heard leave me with no interest. Furthermore, outputs for all of the channels would take too much room within the unit and be too expensive. A moder would go broke with such a unit. |
Audiojoy, speaking for myself, I no longer am tempted by DIY for several reasons. Foremost among these is my experience with moders who have a great understanding of possible circuits, such as Allen Wright and John Tucker. I could do simple parts swaps and I grant that much of the advance is just that, but there are other mods that are not just such swaps.
Basically, I am impatient to have the best I can get and have found that even expensive stock units, such as the TEAC Esoterics can be equaled if not bested by mods. No doubt moders make a living doing this, but I do not view my buying their products as serving "money makers." |
Wow, this is a snake pit. What does it mean, Avguru, that you are the orginator and moderator of this thread. Can you really refuse to allow a posting?
Kana is correct, I said that I thought shootouts were worthless because there is so much bias among those participating and because there is no consensus. I cannot imagine why other moders would want to participate in this shootout, nor why anyone would use or could use the reported outcome in a buying decision.
This is all just writing about sounds as we hear them. YMMV is the proper conclusion. |
I listened to the APL 3910 at CES and talked extensively with Alex. One thing is certain, Alex thinks his unit is superior to the Exemplar. After listening to it at CES, I certainly am not prepared to agree. No amount of salesmanship can overcome my need to hear it myself, and hopefully soon I will have that chance.
As a political science professor, I fully expect politics to be involved everywhere, although I might prefer it not to be. I have heard many stories involving this shootout, none of which I can substantiate, but all of this does not matter to me as I will not believe a comparison unless I am there, and as was the case a VSAC, often not even then if the venue is not suitable as was the case there.
I am still struck that a poster can also serve as a moderator, although I think avguru has been open, although perhaps with too much vanity showing. |
Avguru, I think you tainted yourself in assuming the moderator role. I think when magazines accepted advertising they also tainted themselves to charges, whether warranted or not.
I must admit that I would be paying little attention to APL's unit were it not for your shootout, but I would never use the shootout as a buying decision anymore than I would buy based on a Stereophile or TAS review. I see no further use for this thread and think it ending with this division was inevitable. |
Jsala, I would prefer to await the unit I will be getting. |
Yes, I did, but not under very good conditions. It was in a small room. |
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I think the power supply is stronger and more complex on the 3910 also. It is also substantially bigger although there is no greater room within to do mods. |
I was always surprised that there was even a consensus among the original three on this thread, and I must admit I doubted the validity of their conclusion. Now, it seems, there is no consensus and some have gone home with their vanity brushed. While I doubt if there will be a consensus in any further shootout, I wish I could join you as the comradely is fun if everyone doesn't take it too seriously. |
Those of you who expected that the shootout would result in one unit standing have seen too many westerns. Having heard the TEAC DV-50 several times against first the Exemplar 2900 and more recently the Exemplar 3910, I cannot imagine how anyone could find it competitive, but many love it. That is what make horse races.
It is unfortunate that dealers have all but vanished denying us the opportunity to compare before we buy, but anyone buying these various units considered is going to get a good sounding unit. It may not be the unit you would have bought had you been able to compare all of them. This is the same with your car, your dog, and dare I say it your wife or husband. Be happy and enjoy. This thread is not going to tell you what to buy. |
Tom, I often I remember saying that. I would predict that in less than two years the APL will be long gone. I too cannot imagine anything better than the Exemplar 3910, but already there is talk about the Denon 5910. Especially on digital forever is about 6 to 8 months. |
Pardales, multiple threads seem to be going along on a single thread. I think your observations about the Exemplar 2900 are apt. I too found it did most for redbook while still improving sacd. I too lost interest in discriminating against cds as they sounded so good.
But the Exemplar 3910 is a different animal. After this sucker is broken in, there is no question that sacds are superior. When a sacd is on, you hear the soundstage open and the speakers disappear. Cds are improved also, but they remain stuck between the speakers.
While I have no question that the Reimyo CDP777 cd player might make you forget about sacds, I think the Exemplar 3910 will make you want more sacds. |
Pardales, the Sony XA777 must be exceptional as my Allen Wright level 4 moded Sony CDP3000 was no match for the Exemplar 2900 even on sacd. As rapidly as digital evolves, there may be better than the 3910 in six months. |
Kana, although it was the EMM modification of the Phillips sacd 1000 with the DAC6 which I had, I did do the comparison you suggest with both the Allen Wright Level 4 Sony CDP3000 and the Exemplar 2900, not the much better Exemplar 3910.
Initially, I was very happy with the EMM, but when the Allen Wright unit came in, it was very difficult to identify which unit was playing. Given that my investment in the Sony was much less, I placed the EMM on Audiogon and sold it immediately, ironically to a moder.
When the Exemplar without the Siltech wiring came in, I was shocked at how much it had improved over the earlier version. It was more dynamic and quieter with an exceptional soundstage. Especially on redbook, it outperformed the Allen Wright unit, which again sold quickly.
Later, the Exemplar was very greatly improved using Siltech connection wire. Later still I got the Exemplar 3910 which was greatly superior to the 2900, especially playing sacds.
I never had the Meitner transport, but it has to be more satisfying than the troublesome Phillips. I doubt, however, whether it helps the overall sound of the EMM enough to close the gap with the best modified units, either in sound or prices.
I have not had the Reimyo CDP777 in my system, but others tell me it is exceptional with it special K2 chip. Were money of no concern, I would buy the Reimyo just to play my cds. |
Saxman, apart from the EMM transport I met all of your conditions in urging me to listen to the EMM system. It is not that I disliked the EMM as I did dislike the dCS gear, I just thought other unit were better and cheaper. If I get a chance, however, I will relisten to the EMM digital front end. |
Dbld, I am with you and Audio_girl. I thought the thread was dead and that the conclusion was that there had been no unit stood out as best for all involved. I certainly would never buy one of the units based on what was said here. I still believe the Exemplar/Denon 3910 is the superior unit. |
Jayctoy, I disagree that it has been informative at all, but then again I can ignore it. |
Tvad, actually I have never made any comparison with Alex's unit save in much earlier postings about a shootout at VSAC several years ago. I did not ask Alex to send me a unit; he asked if I would like to hear a unit. It is entirely possible that he is so far behind in filling orders that he has none, but he has not told me this. I did assure him in email and at CES that although I was happy with the Exemplar I felt I was open to a valid comparison.
Although John Tucker is a friend of mine, I have tried some of his products and not liked them. My liking everything he makes is not a condition of our friendship thankfully. |
I have heard very positive comments about the Accustic Arts dac, but I have not heard it. |
