Esoteric DV-50: Any cdp's Significantly better?

Guidocorona, The report you point to does say the FIR circuit is the default in the X-01 and UX-1. They are talking about the RDOT filter not being needed in the new units due to the VRDS mechanism. In think I'm reading it right.

If there's beer, I'm coming. Seriously, I will drive the 5 hours from Sandusky, OH and bring the modified DV-50. Figure out a final date and post.
Tom Roberts

The DV-50 (Superclock 3) is now fully burned -in and ready for battle. I'm anxious to attend the shootout. How will the power cord and isolation issues be handled? I asume we bring our favorite cords, but isolation can also change the outcome. Any thoughts of using the same (or none) on each player. Just wondering...

I'm quite surprised about the over-reaction regarding my beer comment. I wouldn't drive five hours just to attend a drunken party. I also think that distance I'm coming shows my committment to the hobby. On the other hand, I would hope this is a casual event and if wine is offered, I'll gladly have a glass. (or two)
Tom Roberts

I will also bring some fine Ohio Pinot Grigio. The islands in Lake Erie have consistently produced some of the finest wine grapes in the world. The weather is considered perfect because of the lake controlled temperature. There is a winery in Sandusky that has produced many gold medal winning wines. The Pinot Grigio is one of them. This winery, Firelands, now owns the island vineyards that were previously owned by Meiers Winery - now owned by Paramount Distillers. Meier's claim to fame was their nationally famous Cold Duck. Firelands now produces many world class wines, and in addition to the Pinot Grigio, they have won awards for their Ice Wine, Walleye White, and Riesling. They bottle under the brands Firelands and Mon Ami.

Should I mention Cigars? HEHE. Too many hobbies, too little money.

Just an idea....Should the shootout be between the one-box players with the overall winner competing against one of the Transport/DAC's?

My understanding was that the Superclock 3 has a greater effect on the FIR filter which upsamples to 352.8khz. There are two other filter settings on the DV-50, RDOT @ 705.60khz and RDOT + FIR operating at 1411.2khz. These are all selected via a switch on the front panel of the DV-50. I have heard improvement on all of the settings, but far less on the RDOT and RDOT + FIR. Before the upgrade, I was using the FIR filter exclusively. If I'm not mistaken, the newer Esoterics UX-1/X-01 use the FIR circuit and have abandoned the other two.

Aplhifi, Thanks for the clarification. I was aware of the possibility to install two Superclocks and opted to hear the unit with one modification at a time. I stand by my observation that the single clock upgrade makes a pretty nice improvement. Considering the cost of $300 installed, I've bought power cords at three times the price that have made only 1/2 the improvement of this change. The second upgrade that I had done to this machine involves power supply upgrades. Being a "modder", you already know what was involved here. That improvement was dramatically better than the clock change, the clock circuit benefits from it and at $400 it is also a "steal". The second clock may be the next thing I try. The last will be changing the output stage.

I guess the object of this process has to do with the fact that I already own the DV-50. With just $700 invested, this unit has jumped to a dramatic new level. With the second clock and output stage...who knows? I'm fairly confident that it’s already better than the X-01. I've been in the hobby long enough to know that the difference I'm experiencing with these mods just doesn't happen when you change components - regardless of price.

Although I'm interested in hearing it against the new Esoteric, I'm also interested in hearing how it now compares to a fully-modified Denon. If this is the reference we are now shooting for, more modifications may be in order for my DV-50. The additional mods have been quoted at $1000, making a fully-blown DV-50 $4700-$5200 if you buy one used, or $1700 if you own one already.

I realize there are different approaches when it comes to modding these units. The real proof is in the performance, which is why I'm going to Chicago.

In the end, though, it is about having fun, making new friends, and listening to music. If we can advance the hobby through different ideas and methods, that’s fine too.

I’d like to thank Brian again for hosting this event. I think everyone will agree on at least one thing - we had a lot of fun doing this. From a personal perspective, I accomplished the two things I had hoped for…1) make new friends, 2) make a good showing with the modified DV-50.

This event solidifies what this hobby is all about. I have a new “to die for” CD list. Also got to listen to two pieces on my “must hear” list, the Blowtorch preamp and Soundlabs. I came away impressed by their strengths although it took awhile to adjust to a different type of presentation than at home…..or was it the wine working? Just kidding Brian, you’ve got a great setup. The organ/choir piece was just incredible!

As far as the shootout, I’m taking the same stance as you, Brian. It is not a copout simply because it is the truth. These players were all real close in overall performance. I don’t think anyone expected this going in. Our scorecards covererd most of the critical aspects of each players performance from pace & timing to depth, balance, inner detail, vocal presence, etc, etc.. I believe we voted on a total of 10 categories, ranking each from 1-5. My scorecard had the players separated by just one point each after totaling the columns.
In the end, the owners of each player, including myself, thought that their player held the edge in the competition. If I’m not mistaken, the other three present chose one of each of the three players as their favorite. It can’t get any closer than that. And no, my sister didn’t choose mine. :-( You may think “of course you are going to pick your own player” . I don’t think this shootout was that simple. It was so close that in the end, it came down to each player’s unique sonic signature. As an owner, this is one of the reasons you bought or kept the player to begin with. As a bystander, you preferred one presentation or another. There just was not a clear winner in all of those categories that you usually use to judge equipment.

Specifically about the DV-50…... I know there is agreement by all that the stock Esoteric will not compete against these modified players. Both the Denon and Sony are at a level that is easy to call “reference”. I want to SINCERELY thank all of the modifiers for their efforts in taking this hobby to the next level.

The good news for Esoteric owners…..The DV-50 has a lot of growth potential! Mine is competing with the best with only $795 in total modifications. It has both the Superclock 3 and power supply modifications done. The great thing is that there is many more mods that can be done if you want to take it to potentially a higher level. I’m contemplating doing this.

As far as the modifications, you can email me if you want specifics. As far as the modifier, it is Doug Jesse at Reference Audio Mods in Warren Michigan. We all know that the parts choice and use has everything to do with the sound. Doug has done an outstanding job in choosing the right components for the Esoteric.

Like I said earlier, my hats off to these guys who are putting a lot of effort into advancing the hobby. You don’t have to sell your CD player to move up in performance. And this includes far less expensive players. I know there are many that have that hesitancy about upgrades. I had the same reservations, but will now highly recommend them.

Thanks to the Chicago group for a great time!

My specific ratings were DV50 (48) Modright (47) APL (47). Since my sister doesn't post, her preference was the APL, DV50, and Modright in that order. I don't know her exact scores, but they were as close as all the others. FYI, my sister has been involved in music for 35 years and currently sings with The Apollo Chorus of Chicago. She has great ears and a nice system of her own.

I would disagree with Eric on just one main issue. I thought the DV-50 clearly won the battle of detail retrieval. The only other area that I scored it clearly ahead was in bass definition. As far as the "damped" observation, I thought the DV-50 was playing at a slightly lower volume during its review which may account for this. Other than those thoughts, I have absolutely no complaints about the shootout, outcome, or any of the players.

Brian didn't say much in his first post, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say as he walked into his kitchen "call me crazy, but I thought the DV-50 was the best one." Since I don't know that he kept his scorecard, he'll have to elaborate.

Give it up Brian......:-)

Tom

Brians missing CD was one of the outstanding recordings there. It's a little hard to find in stores and I had to order mine from Amazon. It is: Nils Lofgren, Acoustic Live. One of the others that made the Soundlabs "sing" was a SACD release on Proprius, Cantate Domino. Some of the selections others are now out of print, so I won't mention them.

In defense of 711...As far as meeting him for the first time, I found him to be a cool guy. He spoke his mind ,was funny, and brought some great wine that we all enjoyed. I never heard a detrimental thing from him during the entire session. I'm sure his initial comparison between a stock DV-50 and the Denon drove the comments to AVGURU. Although I would never descibe a stock DV-50 as a toy, the difference would make you excited about receiving an APL Denon. This was evident by the shootout. Can't speak for him regarding the argument, I just didn't find him to be mean-spirited.

Alex, your post is sarcastic and demeaning. I played fair with you by emailing about your thoughts on the two players before going to the shootout. The contents of that email have and will remain confidential as promised. My trip to Chicago was two-fold. First, I went expecting yours to be a clearly superior player. I was fully prepared to buy your unit if the difference was as dramatic as the hype. Secondly, I wanted to hear the Blowtorch preamp and Soundlabs.

I also believe I have been gracious about the outcome. I even went as far as complimenting all of the designers/modifiers for raising the level. This was not an attempt to stroke you, but something I feel sincere about.

What I have changed my mind about is the fact that designers, dealers, and manufacturers can post to this forum. Many dealers refrain from this because of the potential for bias. In the case of someone actually designing and producing the products, there is even MORE potential for bias. After all, you have made a component that to your ears is superior. As far as the Denon 3910, it is a completely redesigned unit that you put your “name” on. The DV-50 is something you modify if you have to. If this is not true, you could have stepped up at any point in this thread to say otherwise. The other problem is that the outcome of reviews can affect you monetarily. These issues clearly are a good reason you should not post.

As far as my background, I have been an audiophile since 1972 until now and a high-end dealer from 1980-1992. I have sold and owned more equipment than most get the opportunity to. The drive to Chicago was nothing as I’ve logged more miles for this hobby than I care to count. My ears are insured by Lloyds of London – just kidding. Vie been involved in hundreds of listening sessions and shootouts, many of which provide a clear outcome.

I’ve heard all the hype before, but this thread and your sincerity had me interested in the APL Denon. The shootout just DIDN’T prove that one player CLEARLY was THE BEST. Yes, we all heard differences and the scores were close because the outcome was close. As I said previously, each owner thought their player was the best, but we all agreed that day that the outcome was closer than we all expected.

I also said previously that I had NO problem with the way the competition was handled. This is because with the space, proximity of outlets, number of cables, and amount of people and equipment in the room, there was no way to get things perfect. If you want to “split hairs” the DV50 was listened to last (which I thought was unfair to the others) giving it a slight edge as being the most recent heard. Each of six music selections were listened to entirely on each player before moving on. Normally, I would prefer a single selection played on each player before moving to the next. The power cables used were different on each player. There was no isolation or bases used. The DV-50 was listened to single-ended instead of balanced, giving it a disadvantage. Some may consider that significant. If you want me to take the differences that I heard to the typical audiophile level, the facts are that the DV-50 was clearly superior. It excelled in bass definition, inner detail, and timing & pace. Even though the tube units were “warmer”, the DV-50 was more musical. It was equal to the other players in every other category. Are you all happy now? In my opinion, the owners shouldn’t have voted anyway.

Everyone is now pushing for more information, score cards, etc. This thread has become bigger than life, and the subject tarnished. I won’t give the scores on each item because it really doesn’t matter. These will just become more ammunition for the thread to continue and continue with no real meaning. Is anyone really using this information to purchase one of these players? I doubt it.

I believe we all agreed to agree that day not only because it was difficult to choose a clear winner, but because we were having a great time. This is what the hobby is all about anyway. I really don’t care whether you, Alex, believe it was close or not.

I’ve been involved in hundreds of listening sessions and shootouts, many of which provide a clear outcome. FOR WHATEVER REASON this one was more complicated. In actuality, there was a larger improvement when Brian applied Optix and Nordost Eco to one of 711 smilins CDs. This difference was bigger than the differences between players – seriously.

I think the Chicago group took the high road on this subject and I wish for this issue to now end.

Tom Roberts

Alex, I'm certainly willing to take you up on that offer. In return, you will receive a fair and concise evaluation between just the two players in a different environment. There are at least two other seasoned audiophiles here that would be willing to post their thoughts after hearing it in my system as well. If you could make the demo with balanced outs, that would be helpful, but not absolutely necessary.

An open invitation. Anyone that wants to compare the modified DV-50 and their unit, come to my home. I welcome anyone with any player. Bring cables, isolation, or whatever, but the comparison will be with the same products on both machines.

Stock DV-50's, two-box units, or whatever. If someone has a APL 3910, that would be great, otherwise I anxiously await the APL demo unit. I'm always willing to spend the time to hear new things.

This will be my last post to this forum, so if you are willing to visit Sandusky, Ohio, email me direct.

What? Iwass totally sober when i wote all os my poosts.

My modded Magnavox! I just purchased a Magnavox MSD124 on an open box special at Best Buy for only $29. I was planning on using it in my boat this summer, but after 5 bottles of wine Sunday night, I remembered that they used to modify Magnavox CD players years ago with great success.

I started the modification at about 9:00pm Sunday night. After taking the cover off, I realized that my first problem was going to be the small chassis size. The other was that I didn’t have any parts to do the modification. I decided the best thing to do was…first, open another bottle of wine, and second, use my Esoteric DV-50 as the parts base machine. After all, I could always replace the parts tomorrow.

I went to my garage and got my hammer and drill, and proceeded to hammer the top of the cabinet to make room for the larger transformer from the DV-50. I had to also pound out the sides as the cabinet was a little thinner. I then realized that I didn’t have a schematic for the Magnavox but it didn’t matter for I don’t know how to read schematics. I must admit the Magnavox didn’t have the quality of parts inside that I expected for $29, and I was now looking at replacing many more parts from the DV-50 than I had first planned.

I was about to give up and then had a great idea. I totally gutted the Magnavox and DV-50 both. I moved all components from the DV-50 over to the Magnavox chassis. I then suspended the boards with rubber bands (I learned this from Conrad Johnson) so that I never needed to use Symposium or Aurios suspensions again.

You won’t believe how great the Magnavox now sounds! It is an incredible improvement for a $29 player! I think I’m going to call it the TJR Magnavox. I will admit the chassis is a little bloated on the sides and top, but I’m an audiophile so sound is where it’s at for me. I hope to have a few of these players in reviewer’s hands after I get another case of wine next week.

Boa2, Forgot to mention the price. The TJR Magnavox will be sold for only $69. It’s going to take $3200 in DV-50’s to make each TJR unit, but I will absorb that cost as part of research and development.

The unit also uses a new proprietary chassis strap, so that you can easily show off the interior of your TJR. Eliminating the use of screws or bolts, a velcro strap holds the chassis together. This unique system eliminates the unsightly duct tape that we used on the prototype. Actually the duct tape wasn’t so bad, we just didn’t want to give rolls of duct tape away with each unit.

I will make replacement rubber suspension bands available through the parts department. They are $5 each, only because they are imported for me by WalMart. I hand pick the rubber bands from bags of 100 and each must pass stringent testing which is secret.

Audiojoy, Ever heard of satire?

To be honest, Conrad Johnson actually did use rubber bands to suspend a nuvister tube board in their Premier series phono pre amp in the 80's. The nuvistors were so prone to vibration and mechanical noise that tapping on the cabinet made one helluva ring throughout the system. I did experiment with different types of rubber/silicone bands as an alternative.

I believe I paid $1200 for that unit back then, and it was of usual CJ design - goldish color faceplate on full 19" cabinet. Imagine my suprise to open the cabinet and find only a transformer and 3" x 5" board suspended by rubber bands!

Audiojoy, If you found my humor rude and disrespectful, better look in the mirror. I've always been amused by the fact that almost ANY post will rub SOMEONE the wrong way. I could be the bigger man and let your comments go, but ....HMM....NOT. After all, I'm a 50 year old schoolboy creating boring innuendos. And now you’ve rubbed me wrong! LOL.

I remind you of your patients? You remind me of the lawyer who can't stand his profession and must become an alcoholic to deal with it.

If you are the professional you profess to be, you would know that humor is healthy. What more did you need to know after over 850 posts? Fact is, after about 30 posts, what informational value does any thread have?

If you need to relax, listen to your system instead of talking about it. It is you that sounds depressed. Lighten up.