Equal $$ for Phono OR Streaming?

@jjss49 Your point is well taken and the effort required for phono needs to be seriously sized up, as you say. 

Well, I like the idea of owning both sources. Streaming works well for no fuss music and to discover those LPs or CDs one wants to own. 

With 6K one could purchase a  Streamer/DAC combination like the one Hide45 owns, and his friend heard, and have ~$4000 for a TT system, when in a more hobby focus mode, enjoying a music session. 

If the TT becomes the primary requiring greater cost, then just purchase the Bluesound Node 2i and use it's internal DAC for music discovery. Improvements could be made with an external DAC at a later date.

Yup.

Sometimes being a copy cat is the smart course of action. Especially when copying someone you know and trust, not just some guy posting opinions about what sounds best (likely things that you have never even heard) on a website that is there mainly to sell things.

Many of those same guys would likely also tell you themselves (in other contexts) that you can’t know how something sounds until you actually here it.

Who wouldn’t like to have things both ways if permitted?

The most entertaining thread I've read in a while! Lots of great points and specific recommendations have been made. So let's talk about UX.

User experience preferences should be greatly taken into consideration. Much has made of the downsides to vinyl, like cleaning records. I don't mind spending an hour or two cleaning a pile of LPs, slipping them into a nice new sleeve and knowing they'll be clean basically for eternity. Other loath the core, don't do it, and then complain about "clicks & pops" as if they are inevitable. They aren't.

Does ownership of a collection matter to you? ...full size art and liner notes? The whole millennial vinyl craze seems often as much about the physical experience of playing/owning/displaying records as the sound quality. 

On the other hand, are you a playlist junkie? If so, digital is clearly your friend, not much debate there...70s mixed tapes notwithstanding, ha. 

Flipping albums, especially with audiophile 45s just isn't for everybody. Some love the required focus and get more out of the music, while others would rather play a song, turn on Roon Radio and let it go for hours at a time.  Side-note: gotta admit that adding a tonearm lifter is something I'm glad I did, and can be a real stress reducer at times.

On the digital side, how tolerant are you of software bugs, Apple & Windows updates breaking things, and buggy wifi/internet connections? Recently I spun about 5 albums while holding & talking with AT&T internet and Eero tech support teams over issues affecting my audio streaming...irony! 

Which tragedy hits home: the friend whose basement flood ruined a rack of album covers or the friend whose hard drives crashed and he lost all his hirez downloads? 

Does post-pandemic record shop & garage sale browsing sound like fun or a chore? I am always energized by a couple of hours LP-hunting!

OP, it's worth asking your friend about these considerations to get a sense of their mindset, habits and that may point you to the right side of the fence. Then get down to specific gear. 

Personally, I'm put a small amount into a Raspberry Pi, Intel NUC running Roon and a cheap decent dac like SMSL or Schiit and invest the other 80-90% into analog. Agree with comments about digital depreciation. This route would allow a change w/o huge loss down the road if he'd rather go all in on the digital side.

Cheers,
Spencer



 

Let’s look at this logically, the amount you are willing to spend on either idea should be the answer to the question.  If you have good speakers and a good amplifier you will only get good sound. (Not Great) I was in the same position and chose to go with a NAD streaming amp with a built in DAC.  Even with a great turntable which would cost so much more than you want to spend, you will still only get the sound reproduction equal to the rest of your equipment.  Streaming will give you good audio reproduction and so much more music to choose from at a monthly cost which would be less than the cost on one album.  Probably with at least equal sound. I think streaming is the future of audio for the masses. Once you reach a point where you can spend whatever you want, you decision might change.  My ears are not that great and my system sounds as good as I can hear.  Total cost for everything $20,000.

@sbank I have discussed these various user experience factors with my friend and he has  an equal appetite for either way of listening to music. What he would like to know is whether he should spend his money on digital or analog in the four to $6000 range. The rest of it will follow and he is open to it and he is going into it with his eyes wide open. Thank you for the your nice comment about the thread.

@hilde45

one additional, central point i would make (in reply to some other comments in this nice thread you have started) is that since i decided to tackle streaming this time last year since covid started, i very much believe that streamed music (using proper tidal, qobuz or other suitable lossless service) is absolutely able to deliver music at a superb quality into a well chosen downstream system ... to a point where the emotion-stirring nature of well recorded content will come through to thrill and move the listener

there is no doubt in my mind this is the case with presently available gear, and at quite a reasonable cost - in fact, a blue sound node 2i feeding an ayre codex or mhdt istanbul or a schiit gumby will do ’the trick’ (~$1500)

turntables are NOT needed to achieve the above - though one can argue the best tt’s may do it a touch better -- just as top-tier cd players have also been able to produce the desired goods for years now...

those who deny the above are either hopelessly stuck in their ways, can't see past what they have personally invested in in this hobby, and/or haven't tried streaming or done it properly

@jjss49

streamed music (using proper tidal, qobuz or other suitable lossless service) is absolutely able to deliver music at a superb quality into a well chosen downstream system ... to a point where the emotion-stirring nature of well recorded content will come through to thrill and move the listener

there is no doubt in my mind this is the case with presently available gear, and at quite a reasonable cost

I absolutely agree for my own ears and sonic tastes. I’m 56 and I grew up with turntables, and I’ve listened to them through the early 2000s. I’ve heard great ones. The comments by the analog-is-the-only-way people make me very curious to see what I may have overlooked (about what I’m able to discern) but the overall phono-path is too burdensome for me.

That said, the system I’ve built over the past year has transfixed me at times; I get completely lost in the music, hear tremendous things, and don’t find myself with a "grass is always greener" bugaboo gnawing at me in my listening position. I heeded advice about getting an R2R DAC and while I’m curious about how "lowly" my Node 2i is, I do recognize the warnings about how quickly streaming technology (in contrast to DACs) is evolving. If there is one thing which shows me I’m not "done" with digital, is the occasional DSD files I’ve heard. In a few years, after I’ve dialed in my room or settled into a new one, a much better streamer (and DAC, possibly) is on the short list, but until the room’s impact is addressed, it’s not my priority. My friend may very well read some of the more economical suggestions here and decide that savings should not be spent on trying to do *both* digital and analog, and should instead go toward the room.

Thanks for posting this thread. Very interesting and the discussion has thankfully remained civil, which is very refreshing. I have a few thoughts which I wanted to share.

I have digital front end components (not including cables) right in the price range where your friend is shopping. My system is posted, and I am using an Innuos music server with a Line Magnetic DAC. The sound quality is very good, although not nearly as good as my analog front end, which is much more expensive. I have heard a digital front end competitive with my analog front end, but it was more than twice as expensive as my analog front end. I have not recently heard an analog setup in the price range where your friend is shopping.

If I were a first time buyer, and my price range was the same as your friends, I might go digital. The reasons for that decision are: 1) Easy access to a lot of music via streaming 2) Ease of setup if he uses something similar what I have with only two boxes and Roon 3) No storage needed for physical media 4) Overall investment will be less due to media purchases.

A high quality streamer is a transactional decision, a high quality vinyl playback system is a commitment.  

If your friend is willing to make the commitment to vinyl, then his efforts will be rewarded, otherwise, a streamer is an excellent option.  

Great post @jjss49. 

@jperry  Thanks for your comments and I'm glad for the vibe in this thread. Your suggestion for my friend resonates for me, and I'm glad he'll have your comment along with the others to help him with his inquiry.

@hilde45 

Thanks for your comment. Take a look at my system and it will give you additional context for my comments. As you will see I am primarily analog focused in my system, with the digital streaming a new addition. I tried digital streaming a couple of times before with no real success in terms of sound quality or user friendly solutions.

The current solution is very user friendly, glitch free, and easy to operate. The sound quality is pretty good as well.

Best Regards,

Jim Perry

@jperry

Your system is very elegant, a perfect marriage of analog and digital. One of my favorite system’s on Agon 😊

+1 for a PS Audio Directstream
or LUMIN w/ Dac the T2. Mytek brooklyn bridge 2 will soon be out and roon is in the box. Dac chip very good. Hymn.

I love vinyl but left it. I can’t hear any difference (others can) and have opted for an intergrated amp and a streamer with a built in dac. KISS.

@millercarbon may be right on his recommendation but most stellar vinyl setups are far more expensive.

Now for the cost of one record you can get two months of streaming, no records to clean and from an iPad Pandora’s box is amazing.

The ps audio unit is $6k. Is it a DAC only or does it include a streamer? The top of the price range is $6k, so this is a make or break question relating to that suggestion. Thanks.

I would go with phono because it involves the listener so much more than using a streamer or a computer to access your music and you have so much fun looking for vinyl at different places.

@speakermaster  
Interesting. Do you have an opinion on the question of which in that price range would sound better?

The vinyl would sound better on a better recording but it is all about the recording quality and usually the digital version will only be better than vinyl when you spend enough money on digital there are tradeoffs to both though.

I believe his record collection should be the determining factor.  If he just has a few, why bother?  If like me, he does not really care for the streaming algorhithms, go with the phono, and listen to the music he spent a lifetime collecting.

That's like asking if you want to collect Model Ts or Hellcats. If he likes nostalgia and rituals, get the Model T (TT). If he likes performance and convenience, get the Hellcat (stream). And there's no need to buy a dedicated streamer unless you want instant on. Ones and zeroes won't know the difference. My "streamers" (a laptop and an Echo Dot) cost $149 and $20 respectively.

Recent posters, the general life advice is appreciated, but he really wants an answer to the question as posed to make his decision. If you don't think it's answerable as posed, he'd appreciate knowing why.

the ps directstream can be equipped with an optional plug in module called a bridge which allows it to receive streamed signal via ethernet and wifi

i tried this unit and found it good but not great, esp in light of its cost of ~4k used w bridge

there is much discussion among users about the sound of these units varying a good bit based on which version of the custom decoding software done by their digital guru ted smith is installed on the fpga... gets somewhat complicated and confusing too

You can play the same song 10 times in a row employing a digital system without leaving your chair. I am about 95% shifted away from my 40 year old TT. Sort of like going to different bedrooms. Miss her for about 5 minutes each night, then I don't. How old is your "friend"?

@hilde45
If you are ONLY considering "sonic quality" as consideration, then Analog is the better choice.  Many audiophiles say that analog is sonically superior to digital, rarely any say it is the other way around.

Digital offers much cheaper media, seemingly endless available content that's easily obtainable, cross referencing metadata for in-depth analysis.  If your friend is interested in exploring music, he should eventually include digital.  I have both. 

@jjss49  Thanks for experience with P.S. Audio. For $6k, new, I think my friend would rather get both streamer and DAC without needing addition hardware, software, or other complications. Pass on this product.

@jpwarren58 My friend is almost 50 and has a background as a music major who became a neuropsychologist. Why do "you" ask? Does age have a bearing on the sonic quality (perhaps because of hearing loss?)

@kennyc  Thanks for your answer.

Age plays a role for sure in this game. As someone mentioned analog requires a certain level of commitment and mechanical aptitude. IMHO that budget slants digital. 6000 will buy an above average digital system. It will only purchase an average TT setup. My apologies for the "friend". Internet cynicism.

@jpwarren58  No worries. He's too busy and I'm the one much more into this hobby, but he cares about sound. Just cannot invest the time in the details and he trusts me -- and I trust the best opinions on this forum. All good. And thanks for your judgment.

Get yourself a Cary Audio DMS600 or DMS700
DAC Streamer that does both TIDAL & Qobuz and you are done. End of story and enjoy the incredible sound 

@kennyc : I know lots of people who claim otherwise. These are people who understand that from a scientific standpoint, digital is indisputably technically superior to analog. From dynamic range, which has the capability of being 10 times higher than LPs, to rumble, to wow, to channel separation capability, to low frequency, to degradation, not to mention storage, cost and lack of convenience. Whether it sounds better is subjective and/or depends on the recording process. I grew up with vinyl and spent my first decade of audiophilia with it, but I’d never go back to all the snap, crackle, pop and hiss. I gave away hundreds of LPs 30 years ago and never looked back (until I found 50 more in a box in the basement recently that I’m going to sell).