Anybody with Loricraft experience ?
End-Game RCM thoughts/advice
I've been reading lots of posts about various methods of cleaning LPs, and there seems to be important pros and cons for pretty much every method and/or machine I've looked at. That said:
I have an old VPI 16.5 that works well, and a recently acquired Vinyl Stack and a Chinese 6L US tank (done about 10 LPs in it so far, one at a time. I think that an US cleaning, followed by rinse/vacuum on the 16.5 sounds better than just using the VPI.... I have not compared fluids/chemistries yet. I use the Mo-Fi and AIVS fluids for the VPI, and Distilled water, IPA and a tiny bit of Liquinox in the US.....
I am not interested in doing 4 step processes, spending 20-30 minutes per side, etc. I want great sound, but also want to spend my time listening to LPs, not cleaning them. Not judging, just know myself,. In any case, I will probably keep the machines I have now (16.5 can be used for multi-step cleaning, if necessary, and Vinyl Stack for cleaning 3 LPs at a time, if I so chose). (I also have a Spin-Clean and one of the Merrill, spray LP in the sink devices).
I am shopping for a daily driver, that cleans both sides at the same time, and does a great job (if not the absolute best job possible). If vacuum-based, I want someting more 'automated' than the 16.5,without giving up performance, for an US, something quieter than the Chinese US, that also dries, even if only 1 LP at a time)..I have narrowed it down to the Clearaudio Double Matrix (non sonic version), The Degritter, and the 2019 version of the Audiodesk Pro. (please ignore the price in your comments- it is the performance, convenience and logistics I am concerned with.
I am not interested in a Loricraft/Monks style machine, nor a single-side latewral move from the 16.5-it works well., A single-side automatic like the Nessie Vinykmaster might be in the running since I am told it is much quieter than the 16.5
Please comment and save my sanity (what's left of it anyway... working from home and have too much time on my hands.... Everyone stay well, happy and healthy/safe!
I have an old VPI 16.5 that works well, and a recently acquired Vinyl Stack and a Chinese 6L US tank (done about 10 LPs in it so far, one at a time. I think that an US cleaning, followed by rinse/vacuum on the 16.5 sounds better than just using the VPI.... I have not compared fluids/chemistries yet. I use the Mo-Fi and AIVS fluids for the VPI, and Distilled water, IPA and a tiny bit of Liquinox in the US.....
I am not interested in doing 4 step processes, spending 20-30 minutes per side, etc. I want great sound, but also want to spend my time listening to LPs, not cleaning them. Not judging, just know myself,. In any case, I will probably keep the machines I have now (16.5 can be used for multi-step cleaning, if necessary, and Vinyl Stack for cleaning 3 LPs at a time, if I so chose). (I also have a Spin-Clean and one of the Merrill, spray LP in the sink devices).
I am shopping for a daily driver, that cleans both sides at the same time, and does a great job (if not the absolute best job possible). If vacuum-based, I want someting more 'automated' than the 16.5,without giving up performance, for an US, something quieter than the Chinese US, that also dries, even if only 1 LP at a time)..I have narrowed it down to the Clearaudio Double Matrix (non sonic version), The Degritter, and the 2019 version of the Audiodesk Pro. (please ignore the price in your comments- it is the performance, convenience and logistics I am concerned with.
I am not interested in a Loricraft/Monks style machine, nor a single-side latewral move from the 16.5-it works well., A single-side automatic like the Nessie Vinykmaster might be in the running since I am told it is much quieter than the 16.5
Please comment and save my sanity (what's left of it anyway... working from home and have too much time on my hands.... Everyone stay well, happy and healthy/safe!
29 responses Add your response
To understand the use of sonics: Distilled water with or without a surfactant (soap) in the sonic's basin cannot clean (let alone restore a record (and remove prior films left over from prior cleanings and the record's release agent from the pressing process) as the record immersed in the basin before it spins have the same "charge", (potential difference). The Kirmuss agent NOT TO BE POURED INTO THE BASIN, at $85 for 300-600 records, AND SPRAYED ONTO THE RECORD changes the charge temporarily allowing layers of cleaning films, protective coatings and the the release agent removed. The charge of the record returns to negative, that is why the cycling of 2 or 5 minute cycles with the IONIZING BI POLAR AGENT brushed in..no a cleaner! This and record spacing is critical to achieve first cleaning, then record groove restoration. Using the Audio Deske cleaner is not bi polar, yes it will make the surface look clean but the use of other agents removes from the design parameters and efficiency of the Kirmuss GROOVE RESTORATION Process in removing the release agent where the clicks and and pops reside in. Also, after the Kirmuss process if followed, restoration is validated as where there is no pooling of water on the record as restoration is complete, validating also the fact where no air or vacuum drying is needed, NEVER USE ANY LIQUID ON A RECORD UNLESS YOU HAVE CHECKED THE INGREDIENTS IN THE LIQUID TO THE PVC CHEMICAL COMPATIBILITY LIST. If the manufacturer does not state what they use, or do not supply you by Law with their MDS SAFETY DATA SHEET for their cleaning agent, BEWARE! Tergitol is ETHYLENE OXIDE, bad for plastic, and is a California Prop 95 Cancer Causing Agent! Always follow manufacturer instructions with their systems. Do not try to do your own mixes! |
India Pale Ale? I bet your records love bath time. lol. I ended up buying the non-sonic version of the Clearaudio Double Matrix (got a demo from Musical Surroundings). I am loving it. It is queit, fast, and works quite well. I think it is pretty cool looking too. I also bought a Vinyl Stack, and the mandatory eBay US machine-but it makes a super-annoying sound when it is working, and I have not used it in some time. May fire it back up for some problem LPs.... |
I have modified the way I use my Kirmuss as I could not get the cleaning fluid which is terribly expensive by the way. I use the Audio desk fluid ( made down at one bottle to 4.5 l water) as a spray. And a seperate super mild lab glass cleaning very dilute detergent spray. So, I add 40ml IPA to the 8 litres of water in the US bath. Do a 2min clean, then spray the Audio desk fluid and detergent onto the record and scrub scrub down with a very fine Korean beauty brush ( face wash) , do a 5 minute US clean, then do another spray and scrub, followed by a 2 min US clean, then just a spray with the Audio Desk fluid and another 2 min US clean to remove the mild detergent etc. A bit tedious but, it works for me. |
@fzman1956, A quick review of Degritter shows some issues. The 120kHz frequency is very effective for fine invisible particulate 10 microns and less, but will not be very effective for larger particles or degreasing (if on the record) that is required to get to the very small particulate. The water filter being but only a simple foam is unlikely be rated 5 microns absolute necessary to remove the particles that the ultrasonic will remove, and is just too small for continuous use. Also, the use of blown air unless finely filtered may remove visible particles (~50 microns) but not the invisible that are everywhere in a home (you would be surprised as to how much which is visible with a UV blacklight), so blow dry could contaminate the record. Additionally, the cleaner antistatic coating is likely from use of a quaternary ammonium compounds that are cationic surfactants which are not compatible with anionic surfactants – a gooey precipitate forms, so their cleaner more likely contains a non-ionic surfactant which is soluble with cationic surfactants. Also, for info, the way quaternary ammonium compounds work as an antistatic is the coating absorbs moisture from the air to form a microscopic layer of water which makes the record from an ESD perspective 'dissipative' – and thus antistatic. A one& done/push-here ultrasonic cleaning machine (UCM) currently does not really exist; all current models have some compromise. Until the ‘big-guys’ like Crest or Branson who have +25 yrs ultrasonic experience and the manufacturing capability get involved, a really effective and reliable UCM is still yet to produced, but the cost would likely be not less than $5K. Some thoughts for an effective UCM would be a sweep frequency UCM (multiple 40/80kHz even better) with a pumped 5-micron absolute particulate filter and demineralizer cartridge to maintain the water/bath, and a heated (50C/122F) high speed spin dry for the records. After cleaning, the water/bath could drain to a reservoir under the UT tank, a perforated cover would then come over (manual or auto) and then heaters would energize and a high-speed spin dry completed. A variable speed drill motor could be the record rotator for clean and then high-speed spin dry. The cleaner could be a 0.05% Tergitol 15-S-9 non-ionic solution that should pass through the filter/demineralizer and will reduce the water tension to 30 dyns/cm making the water drain/spin dry effective. Just some thoughts. Otherwise if interested I use a manual process. VinylStack record protector, tap-water pre-rinse, 1% Liquinox pre-cleaner, tap-water rinse, 0.1% Tergitol 15-S-9 final clean, tap-water rinse, DI water spray final rinse, lint-free microfiber to blot record mostly dry, remove from VinylStack record protector place in drying rack – move to next record. I can clean/dry 6-record in ~45 min, after cleaning 6-records, the first is fully dry and ready to sleeve; life cycle cost - $0.05/record.
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"If you don't want to spend the time cleaning your records, here is another option." Great service, business model looks unprofitable and short lived. I hope they are successful. At $5.00 per record,doesn't seem like there would be much left over once the operating costs are paid. Their service sounds perfect for the uber OCD among us, who do the super US cleaning procedures. |
If you don't want to spend the time cleaning your records, here is another option. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKT5fvJ_otk&feature=youtu.be&t=1h2m45s |
You need the clearaudio double matrix sonic! It cleans both sides and the brushes vibrate sonically as it scrubs the record. It’s also fully automated and does a complete bi directional cycle in scrub, rinse and vacuum. I use this machine as a rinse and for drying after an ultrasonic bath and it works wonders. It also has a grounded carbon fiber brush that destats the LP after vacuum dry so records come out static free unlike the VPI typhoon I used to have. Apparently some claim that it’s performance rivals many stand alone ultrasonic cleaners. Check it out. |
If I were looking for an end game RCM, the Ultradesk would be first on my list. With the state of affairs, finding one at CONSIDERABLE markdown now is realistic. I won’t be surprised this unit would be marked down much lower if you negotiate. https://www.musicdirect.com/cleaning-machines/audio-desk-2019-vinyl-cleaner-pro-record-cleaning-machine?variant=ADESKVCP19G&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmpb0BRCBARIsAG7y4zYziLTuMeP5X85f10XckS7OPLZXLkMeYlS-Z7N9_YW3OuKM-VjAXpUaAj7dEALw_wcB |
Hmmm Would an antistatic chemical still be needed if we keep the records in an antistatic sleeve after cleaning? My thoughts are that the less chemicals used the better. I am no chemist. So, a mild surfactant to break down the dirt and oil and some IPA. And maybe some adequate scrubbing between a washes. Would this work? |
Recently upgraded to the Degritter after many years using the VPI 16.5 I find the final outcome with the Degritter is better in all respects (visual and sound quality) than my best efforts with the VPI. For years I used the Audio Intelligence 3 step solutions with three separate wands and three separate brushes. I was satisfied with the previous process except for the intense effort and time involved. Now I place a record in the Degritter, push one button, and return in under 10 minutes to an exceptionally clean and dry album. Can not imagine going back to a vacuum RCM. |
I use the Kirmuss. It is a slow s l o w s l o w process. But very very thorough. I must say that the scrubbing (which is part of the proces) plays a good part in dislodging dirt. ( I have solved the problem by getting my daughters to clean the records for me....:) ) WhatIi do not like about it is the Printer Concept. Affordable machine. Very expensive cleaning fluid. One refill does me about 100 LP’s . I wish they would just sell the concentrate and let me buy my own water. The end result is worth the effort. My records are pristine, quiter than ever ever before, and sound great. |
Anyone have a DeGritter that replaced a prior machine and have hands-on comparisons to offer? I've done lots of 'research' on this, and many sane voices assert that fluids and technique matter as much or than which vacuum machine is used. That said, I really do want a toaster- i.e., insert record, push button.... time.... remove clean record... enjoy. I am confident that clean records sound better. I am equally confident that the eaiser and quicker the machine is to use, the more likely it is that I'll actually clean my LPs. Also, I am more inclinde to want to clean an LP just prior to playing IT, rather than batch-cleaning as a stand-alone activity. PS Is there anything even resembling proof that any Ultrasonic Cleaning can/has actually damaged an LP? |
fzman1956 I am not interested in doing 4 step processes, spending 20-30 minutes per side, etc. I want great sound, but also want to spend my time listening to LPs, not cleaning them ... I am shopping for a daily driver, that cleans both sides at the same time, and does a great job ... I have narrowed it down to the Clearaudio Double Matrix (non sonic version), The Degritter, and the 2019 version of the Audiodesk Pro.Your position is the same as mine was, after I realized the Nitty Gritty cleaner I’d had for decades saw only rare use because of its inconvenience. I bought the Klaudio machine and think it can’t be beat. Press one button; walk away; return to pristine LP. Now I can’t imagine life without it. The Klaudio is no longer in regular production, though you might still find some NOS. The Audiodesk looks comparable, but I don’t have any first-hand experience with it. Granted, these are expensive options. But I think their ease-of-use makes it all worthwhile. |
I see you mentioned the degritter.. All I know about this machine is in this link.. looks interesting. If you follow his threads he has spent a lot of time, lots and lots of time evaluating these things http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#Jan |
I have had the VPI 16.5 for years. Its okay for getting crud off. The problem with all these machines is the level of clean needed for a record cannot be done the way people want it done. The only way it can be done is with a brush or cleaning pad that is constantly changing and bringing new clean brush in contact with the record. The only machine I know of that works this way is very expensive and cleans only one side at a time. I'm not into cleaning either. Appreciate the results, for sure. Maybe when the day comes I have more time than I know what to do with it will be a great way to eat up that time. For now though cleaning records means not listening to records, and finding time to listen is hard enough already. Not to mention there's tweaks that improve sound far more than any clean record. So this is pretty far down the list of priorities. What was it you said? Oh yeah, I want great sound, but also want to spend my time listening to LPs, not cleaning them. Same here. What I would do, looking at all the stuff you already have, is mod. All these things really are, two motors and some tubes. One motor spins, the other sucks. You could probably take parts off one and combine with another, modify the platter, and clean both sides at the same time. Which is a silly thing but its what you want. The mod that would not be silly is to make it so the brush material is on a spool that rotates across the brush as it cleans ensuring that only fresh new clean brush fabric touches the vinyl. This mod would also greatly improve cleaning time. Might as well. There are no machines out there that do what you ask. Might as well make it yourself. That's what I do. If I can build a turntable rack, power conditioner, and entire turntable, you ought to be able to mod a vacuum cleaner. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 All it takes is time. Which you now have. In abundance. |
