Emm Labs DV2 versus Tambaqui

@fleschler 

"The May didn't hold up to the Musetec 005 (was the reviewer biased as a dealer)?"

Whose comparison are you referring to?

Metaldektor hit the nail on the head. It’s all about synergy! 

@melm  It was the author of another forum   Apparently, I thought it was a site review but is the author biased?

@fleschler

I don’t think he is biased. There would be no reason. As far as I know, from this and another forum, @dbb is an amateur music lover like me and you. He is not a dealer. He bought the Musetec and the Holo May with his own money, and after the review he was satisfied to keep the Musetec and sold the May. I do identify with him as his passion is for classical music and his listening references are live unamplified concerts. There isn’t a better reference IMO. So that was the basis of the review.

I don’t think it is fair to say that the conclusion was, "The May didn’t hold up to the Musetec 005." As I read what he wrote, he found them to be very similar notwithstanding their very different architectures. He pointed out their very small differences. Being that close in SQ performance, he decided to keep the one costing less money.

@fleschler

I’m not sure how this thread devolved into a discussion of DACs unrelated to the OP’s question -- that’s how these discussions always seem to go..."expensive" DACs (i.e., more expensive than whatever the poster likes) are the new "snake oil" I suppose.

According to Herb’s column in Stereophile, some of the tech for the Tambaqui was discovered in 2004 and production began in 2013. My long-term reference/snake oil is totaldac, and the basic ideas there have been in use since at least 2010, refined here and there over time. I guess that can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. Perhaps you’re assuming that new digital must be better than old digital. My view is "Don’t Mess Up a Good Thing".

I’m not sure how this thread devolved into a discussion of DACs unrelated to the OP’s question

@metaldetektor ,

Funny that you asked. On the first page I noted this already. You tried to provide genuine feedback, but whenever certain 2 people get into DAC discussions, they make every effort to divert the threads to the DAC of their choice.

@milpai You should check out the dealer ad for the ’said’ dac on US Audio Mart. The dealer is referencing a topic started on audiogon as part of his sales pitch by a user named dbb . I’m sure it’s a very good dac, but these underhanded tactics are definitely raising suspicions. Now watch them jump on you by declaring that your motivations are driven by racism (anti-china) or your lack of understanding of how expensive DACs are merely snake oil (that's another way of saying that you are a gullible simpleton who doesn’t know how this stuff works). Typical tactics employed in fabricating a hype cycle :)

Now watch them jump on you by declaring that your motivations are driven by racism (anti-china) or your lack of understanding of how expensive DACs are merely snake oil (that's another way of saying that you are a gullible simpleton who doesn’t know how this stuff works)

@arafiq , I will not be surprised by that. They have called me out on another thread. Like you said - they are using their tactics. But point is, don't turn every thread to your DAC. If you want the OP to know about your DAC, reach out via PM instead of trying to divert the thread's original intent. This was typical of a person from down under who was hijacking all Class D amp, DSD and non-R2R DAC threads. Same thing I am seeing with these few posters - always trying to get pity by saying that most folks here are anti-China. My Oppo is made in China, I just got brand new Psvanes. And guess where they are made?

metaldetektor, thank you for your observations. I would be interested in hearing more as you listen more to the Tambaqui. What connects are you using, for example?That is precisely the type of feedback I wanted. It looks as if the choice will be the Tambaqui. I would like to thank all of the posters who kept the discussion on track.

I have nothing against Chinese Dacs or Chinese products, quite the contrary.Denafrips make very good Dacs. I think Opera Consonance, for example, make great equipment. AM amps are absolutely superb and little known.
My question was based on a lot of prior research and listening and that research and listening led me to consider the two Dacs posed in my initial query. So thanks to those who kept the topic on track. As a matter of interest, the new Sonnet, the Pasithea, is also on my list to listen to.

@arafiq 

Lots of complaint that there's talk here about another DAC.  Then lots of talk here about that other DAC from you. I agree that the ad on US Audio Mart using @dbb's review is kind of ridiculous.  Don't know if he even asked for permission.  But why write about it here?  Why don't you just drop a note to the dealer and tell him what you think?

@melm As an amateur recording engineer for an orchestra, chamber group and multiple choirs as well as a chorister for 50+ years, I too prefer hearing live music in a good/great venue and can use that as a reference.  Unfortunately, as with bad recordings, I've performed in mediocre venues as well.   

and @metaldetektor  I didn't intend to side track the discussion.   I have a $20K analog front end and have attempted to equal it in CD playback.   Some older CD players have sounded exceptional as they sound more like analog (Kyocera 310/410, haven't heard the 710).   I last used the EAR acute for 15 years.   Seeking a more detailed and clean sound, I ventured into separates about 3 years ago.   I purchased a very well reviewed pair of DACs priced at $5K and $9K which I don't want to mention as I intend to sell them.   The lesser priced one was warm and better than my EAR but lacked refinement/detail with frequency extremes truncated.  The more expensive DAC is superior to the other in all those three ways but is sterile sounding/not warm at all.   Plus, I realized the 1 second buffered delay blurred the sound.  It does sound very good as a steaming DAC but not through the SPDIFs (each has a different sound as well).   Gorgeous design and build though. 

Instead, I have chosen a extreme modified Benchmark 1HDR.  My friend replaced a pair of 50¢ regulators with $50 ones, recapped the power supply with audio not computer grade caps that it comes with, added another custom audio board, etc.  This unit has it all sonically.  My cost $2000.   I still wonder if the Luxman D-03X is a better/compact package than his DAC which requires a transport and digital cable.  Sometimes I feel that a single concept unit is better.     

@laoman You've put together a great list. I like all three of those brands. I have not heard the Pasithea, but I did take the Morpheus for a spin. I'd expect the Pasithea to be (even) quieter and more resolving than the Morpheus. 

On the Mola Mola, I've been using an inexpensive ($100 range) XLR interconnect. The DAC only has XLR analogue outputs, but a pair of nice XLR-RCA adapters are included. I have a pair of honest RCA interconnects, so at some point I'll try the Mola Mola with those and the included adapters.

What system (amps / speakers) will you be slotting the new DAC into?

@arafiq 

I don't get what you  mean when you say: ". I’m sure it’s a very good dac, but these underhanded tactics are definitely raising suspicions." Are suggesting some kind of conspiracy?

@metaldetektor, Finkteam Kim and Aesthetix Mimas.

@laoman Your amp has some similar design principles as mine, but I'm not familiar with the speakers. Hopefully you can home audition from a dealer. If that's not a possibility, if you can buy these on the used market, you can effectively do an extended home audition without incurring too much expense.

If you can get a Chinese DAC that works or meets specs. 

Sigh! If you had read this thread, you would know that I am not interested in a Chinese Dac. I am interested in the 2 that I asked about, or perhaps the new Sonnet.Playback Designs is also worth an audition.  I dislike the sound of Ess Dac chips for starters and no Chinese Dac is in the league of the ones I have mentioned.

Very interesting takes... @metaldetektor your posts have been very helpful in particular, but I do appreciate reading almost all posts on this matter.

I was looking for a new reference DAC and wanted something non-ESS based since I presently have the Musetec 005. My short list was as follows

Holo May KTE (R2R)

Denefrips Terminator+ (R2R)

Chord Dave (FPGA)

Mola Mola Tambaqui (FPGA)

I'm awaiting a call about my Tambaqui audition, and went the FPGA route out of both reviews comparing these item's in some context of A vs B, then ultimately choose to go with the Tambaqui do to some reviewer's putting the May = 005 >/= Terminator+.

My thoughts again are that since I have the Musetec 005, the Tambaqui could be the standout given these other DAC's being so close in overall performance.

Could be wrong in my thinking, but the Tambaqui I know needs to run hot and does take some break in, but for the massive jump in cost compared to the competition, I need it to be fairly substantial (like when I got the 005) to my ears given it's price in order to confidently keep it.

Otherwise I might just get the May KTE and spend/save the rest of my money.

I'll post more later, but I plan to A/B the 005 against the Tambaqui, but haven't personally heard the May or Terminator+.

This is a brutal thread.  @laoman here are three thoughts beyond Holo May and Denafrips.  

I have not heard the EMM or the Mola Mola.  I am 100% certain both are brilliant but they just haven't made it through my space yet.  I am exploring expanding my DAC selection further and am seriously considering adding EMM.  We just added Playback.  

Playback has just introduced and is about to ship the new MPD-6 Edelweiss which is $15K without the built-in streamer.  The Streamer is $3K.  I have my sales sample on order and am just waiting for my bill from Playback and have been told to expect any day.  I have not heard it yet, obviously.  I have heard the Dream DAC and it is radically better than any of the $10K-$15K DACs I have heard in just about every way.  I expect the Edelweiss to be a step up from the Weiss, M1 SE, Dave, Wavedream Edition cluster of DACs but a step down from the Dream DAC.  

The Rockna Wavedream Signature is another DAC worth considering.  It is incredibly detailed and is so neutral and balanced the sound is difficult to describe.  The only critique is that it is so neutral, it can be a bit boring.  They are incredibly detailed with a monstrous soundstage.  

The MSB Discrete is also one worth looking at.  I have no relationship with MSB but have heard their DACs and they are worth your time.  Very musical and engaging.  Incredibly detailed but not bright or fatiguing in any way.  

Beyond EMM and Mola Mola, these are the three I would look at.  Good luck to you.  

Verdantaudio, that is a great post. I was not aware that the Dream dac was releasing a new model with a streaming module. That is a game changer. The Dream dacs were designed by the a genius. I will need to listen to this new model as well. Thanks for the information you posted. I will look at the Rockna. Have you heard the new Sonnet? It may be showcased at the Munich hi fi show in a few weeks.

In the $15k plus category, keep an eye on Nagra. Their successor to the Nagra Classic DAC will include streaming capability. Koch of Playback is on their digital design team. The analog stage is designed by the Nagra brain trust. Beautiful form factor if that matters to you and it will have that slightly warm and musical DSD sound if that appeals to you. I use their tube DAC which doesn’t have streaming and is quite a bit more expensive.

If the insightful and meaty analog quality of an MSB is also of interest, consider totaldac as well. It’s sold direct without dealer markup. If you configure it properly (PM me if you’re interested - the website is confusing to say the least), it’s killer and quite a bit cheaper than MSB even at the highest levels. Built in Roon endpoint is an option. But even their entry model is quite good. I have one.

Thanks. When the nonsense from the fanbois is removed from Audiogon there is a lot of valuable information. That is why I joined.

@ja_kub_sz How about starting a new thread to compare the Musetec 005 to the DACs you plan to audition?

The 4 DACs you have listed were all in my list of DACs to consider, along with the 005. I am thinking of getting a second 005 for the Livingroom but variety never hurt.

I have not heard the Sonnet.  

With Playback - There has always been the option of the MPS-8 which is the Dream DAC plus player/streamer at $30K.  This is a full dream DAC with SACD Player and Stream X module.  

The MPD-6 is a lower end model called the Edelweiss.  It is not a Dream DAC and is spec'd differently but at $15K for the DAC and $18K with the streamer module, it will bring an elite level of performance down a price notch.  

You will see this updated on their website.  

@yyzsantabarbara Well that’s a good idea... I pulled the pin and should have the Tambaqui in house come first week of April.

So I can definitely give you my thoughts on the Musetec 005 vs Tambaqui A/B, and would be cool to have some others A/B different DAC’s listed.

Appreciate the suggestion!

It might take me a little time to really give a good listen (new baby T-minus any day), and I’m told it needs to run hot and get some hours in. But I’ll do my best in giving you my unadulterated subjective, relatively new to Hi-Fi opinion.

Excited none the less.

I'm not sure if this thread has discussed source synergy yet (I don't have the stamina to re-read it). The EMM DV2 doesn't have an internal source, whereas the Tambaqui does have an internal Roon streaming board.

The obvious streaming source for the DV2 would be the EMM NS1 streamer, connected via EMM's proprietary Optilink (which supposedly minimizes jitter). I do have an NS1 on the way, but I don't have an EMM Dac to try out that particular combination. 

For streaming, the Roon board in the Tambaqui sounds good (better to my ears than the separate $3000 streamer I had on hand). Since Bruno Putzeys is/was connected to both Mola Mola and Grimm, a lot of folks pair the Tambaqui with the Grimm MU1 server (Roon core + endpoint + reclocker + upsampler). The Grimm is a special piece. I've had it at home and will try it again. But of course it's nearly the same price as the Tambaqui itself. For me at least, it's one of those money-no-object kind of components -- something for a very ambitious system.

“In the $15k plus category, keep an eye on Nagra. Their successor to the Nagra Classic DAC will include streaming capability”

“For streaming, the Roon board in the Tambaqui sounds good (better to my ears than the separate $3000 streamer I had on hand).”

@metaldetektor

I’ve noticed quite a few manufacturers of high end DAC’s are now including streaming client with their DAC’s. To me, this makes perfect sense as long as it’s implemented with proper care. Honestly speaking, the Merging +player has squashed my desires to own any outboard high end streamer. In direct A/B comparison, Merging’s Roon Core+Endpoint $3K option in their +player went toe to toe with a five figure ultra high end streamer :-)

@lordmelton This is a pretty late comment, but that was some very bad advice.

There is not a single review across the board which puts a Chinese DAC ahead of the Tambaqui, including the best of them, the Holo May.

Even Herb Reichert, Stereophile, who holds the May in high regard, concludes:

"Is the Tambaqui better than my forever-favorite HoloAudio May Level 3 DAC? "Better" is not a word I often use, but the Mola Mola makes music bigger, clearer, more solid and rousing than the May. The Tambaqui encourages me to listen longer and more closely than I do with the May. That's what "better" means to me, so yes, it's better."

But let's put that aside for a minute, the Tambaqui bests it in all measurements (other than noise floor in which the May is slightly lower - but noise floor at the level of the Tambaqui is already way beyond your hearing threshold, and the least of your worries in terms of measurements).

As for this talk about the Musetec DA005 - that DAC is a completely jittered mess; a terribly engineered chip DAC, and an incredibly poor performer. It's not even in the same dimension as the Tambaqui in terms of technical merit.

So, why highjack a thread like this with a hugely false statement that doesn't answer the question?