Electronics for Harbeths -- $5-10K

honey0ooi: Thanks for the suggestions, but options like that are not available in my area.

Anyway, at this point, I think I’ve already found an outstanding solution in the Ayre, which seems to be a near-perfect fit. Charlie Hansen’s clever "diamond" output-stage design philosophy (look it up) allowed the company to produce a 130/170wpc Class A/AB integrated that does just about everything one could ask for, and in a 24lb box -- even including a highly praised headphone amp and upgradable DAC that are reputed to be in a class with the separates that I was looking at. Yes, I’m still relying on other people’s opinions, but at this point, I wouldn’t consider this choice to be a compromise in any way, even when compared to the heavy hitters mentioned in this thread.

So after this lengthy research project, in search of a component and system topology that would satisfy a painfully restrictive set of requirements, I think I’m finally set. <exhale> I should have a unit inhouse in a few weeks. $15K (including cables) is more than I’d planned to spend but, fingers crossed, I won’t be disapponted.

@cundare2 , if possible why not ask friends come over to help. 
I love harbeth sound but most of them drives by amp over 40lb. Also maybe join audiophile group in your area might help your situation audition few amp from them .

Thus one should do http://www.audiodrom.net/en/integrated-amplifiers/detail/31-integrated-amplifiers/664-aesthetix-audio-mimas

AESTHETIX AUDIO Mimas review at audiodrom

kennyc: I understand & thanks for the follow-up.  Everything I've heard assures me that the Hegel would be a fine choice.  The Ayre seemed to be an even better fit, and I think I"m committed to the EX-8 at this point, but I'm sure I would have been happy with either one. 

kennyc: Your last suggestion, on its face, is a logical approach. But you’ve got to understand that I’m not gonna buy a $10,000+ component unless I’m convinced that I’m likely to keep it for a very long time -- not just as a "tryout." 

I was suggesting to try used, then sell if you want to buy a new unit or am unsatisfied.  It's always best to try in ones own audio chain.

One of the nicest amplifier pairings I can remember with my Harbeth HL3PES was some earlier Naim Audio gear.  I used a Naim NAC72/Hicap/NAP135x2 and a Naim CDi compact disc player. The sound was quite good back in the day (late 1990's).

yogiboy & akg_ca: I followed up with LFD, and the rep was very clear about its products not being designed for systems that have an external powered sub. Only one variable-level output, intended to drive the main speakers.

mspot, I’m aware that, because sub interfaces have such high impedance, you can connect both speakers & sub to the same amplified output. Some mfrs that make great-sounded, but functionally constrained amps (like ARC) even recommend that owners do so. But I’m sure that LFD would shudder at the thought! These are the guys that refuse to provide a remote because doing so would compromise the purity of their design. Agree or not, you’ve gotta respect their expert opinion on this.

This is all moot, though. I could use the LDF’s tape out to drive an outboard headphone amp, and wire two sets fo speakers to a single set of terminals to power a subwoofer, but there’s still no HT bypass mechanism. That last issue is the dealbreaker, since this amp would, in addition to providing audiophile sonics in a stereo system, be driving the front channels of a multichannel system. I’m sure that these LDFs are spectacular-sounding boxes, but they’re just not a good fit from a functionality/connectivity standpoint.

So the Ayre integrated still seems to be the best choice for my particular application. In addition to Ayre’s reputation for outstanding sound quality and reliability, its preamps and integrateds are one of a very few that do everything I need without compromising sonics.

I’ve never owned an Ayre product, but after a month of excruciatingly deep research into $10,000-ish amplification from Levinson, ARC, PrimaLuna, Nu-Vista, Pass Labs, bel Canto, Hegel, and the rest, Ayre, to my initial surprise, remains the stand-out.

I just spoke with an LFD rep, who confirmed that the company’s amps can’t be used with a speaker system that requires a subwoofer. There’s no way to get variable-level output to a sub.

You can use a subwoofer that can take high level (speaker level) input. Many subs today (REL, SVS, Rythmik, KEF etc) have connectors to accommodate both high and RCA line level input. Basically connect the sub in parallel with the main speakers.

I just spoke with an LFD rep, who confirmed that the company’s amps can’t be used with a speaker system that requires a subwoofer. There’s no way to get variable-level output to a sub.

Too bad. I was actually thinking of buying a used unit on eBay just to play around with for a while. They run from $2500-$5000, so it would be an indulgence, but you guys have got me curious. But now it sounds like it might be more trouble than it’s worth.

If I was younger, though!

During my misspent youth, I used to buy a lot of "junk" 1950s & 60s tube gear made by the likes of Quad, restore it, learn from it, listen to it for a while, and then ultimately resell it for whatever I’d put into it.

But these days, I just want to hit a button, sit back & listen.

Have you checked this review ?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-monitor-302-40th-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-page-2

The best match for the Harbeth 30.2 40 th was the Pass Lab X25. I've got this match: Fantastic! Just need to pick the preamp that best fits your source, analogue or/and digital. And you're in business.

Test

OK, I did look into LFD and, wow, you’re right, what over-the-top praise! Jaw-dropping!

But unfortunately (please don’t hate me), you can’t always select a piece of gear as a sole function of sonics. And before anybody brings out the garlic and crucifix, I’ll point out that if that wasn’t the case, we’d all be listening to Chronosonic/D’Agostino systems. (And half of us would be divorced!)

In my case, I need a fair amount of connectivity, but the LFD line doesn’t even seem to have outputs for a powered subwoofer or external headphone amp. Or even a remote. IN fact, I’m not sure how it could be used with smaller Harbeths that roll off at around 45-50Hz. Even my Quad ESL-57s benefited tremendously by adding a sub.

I guess I could front-end an LFD integrated with an exceptionally flexible DAC, like a higher-end HiFi Rose unit that would add much of the analog & digital connectivity I’m looking for. But I'd still be missing a few crucial connections.  And that would be a whole new research project.

What’s disappointing is how little info there online is about LFD's product line. I haven’t found a review that tabulates even the most basic specs, like size & weight, power rating, or even price.  And even Gene Rubin’s Web site doesn't tell you much. After an hour online, I still can’t figure out which models are in the current LFD product line, much less compare them. LFD itself doesn’t have a working Web site.

What I’m gathering is that LFD is a small boutique operation, something like George Merrill’s GEM. I’m a big fan of bespoke equipment -- my GEM turntable is aptly named! -- but the downside is that I’m not sure how to make an intelligent purchase decision.

Nonetheless, I’m tempted to pick up a used Mistral on eBay (used units start at around $2000) and hang onto it for a bit just to hear what everybody’s talking about.

Anyway, thanks for teaching this old dog a new trick. LFD has now definitely caught my attention.

yogiboy & akg_ca:

I’m embarrassed to admit that LFD slipped through the cracks for me. I’m not familiar at all with their products. But since both of you praise the company so highly, I’ll defintely take a look.

As I mentioned above, I don’t have the ability to audition any gear in person before buying, but I already see a couple of lengthy reviews online.

Thanks for the heads-up.

C

yogiboy:

Hah -- you’re talking to the right guy! Not sure if I mentioned in this thread that I’ve been a lifelong tube-roller. For thirty years, my go-to system was a beautiful pair of Quad ELSs that I restored, and a variety of tube amps that I either rebuilt myself (like my heavily moded Dynaco boxes) or sent to the factory for refurbishing (e.g., my 1950s Class A Quad 2 monoblocks). I still lust for modern tube designs from the likes of ARC & CJ.

However, I have some physical constraints and there are also configuration issues that limit this purchase to solid-state. And smaller, lighter SS at that. I’ve never had a good experience with Class D, and that’s one reason why I’ve settled on the Ayre integrated -- 130wpc, 24 pounds, 3.5" high, very flexible connectivity, highly praised Class A/AB sonics. This will be something new for me, but I’ve really done a ton of homework on the topic -- so my hopes are high.

I’ve been told by everyone from the late, great Art Dudley to the guy who designed the Ayre integrated, to even Harbeth support, that Ayre and Harbeth are a great combination.

But I can understand your recommendation, too. In fact, Art, shortly before he passed, told me that he considered the Harbeths to be more "Quad-like" (I think he was speaking in terms of coherency and voicing) than any other dynamic-driver system at anywhere near the same price. So driving speakers like these with a great tube amp would be pretty exciting.  Nonetheless, I'll be heading in a different direction this time, so, as they say, fingers crossed, teeth clenched, here we go.

To answer your question, I have the mid-sized Compact 7-ES3, rolled off to a powered sub at around 50 Hz. I went with that model b/c of its reputation for being the most successful model in the Harbeth line -- at least according to Alan Shaw himself. In my moderate-sized room, and with an external powered sub, I didn’t need the extra volume levels and bass extension of the larger models.

@yogiboy has a valid point.

LFD was my second choice after my REGA OSIRIS., so it is worth an audition 

What model Harbeths are you using? I have owned many different Harbeths and they sing with tubes! If you are restricted to solid state LFD should fit the bill! Give Gene a call he has been selling Harbeths for many years !

Gene Rubin Audio

Ah! So much for my reading comprehension!

Your recommendation is a good one, but I think regardless, an amp upgrade is long overdue. But you’re making me think that I might need to incorporate a cable re-evalution at the same time.

What’s interesting is the fact that the amps sound the worst when fed by 100% Silver Apex cables. Yes, there are a zillion other factors that make each signal path unique in its own way, but still...

One possibility is that the Silver Apex segments sound the most Class D-ish because they’re the most revealing. Unfortunately, it’s not easy to swap them all out, since some have singular connectors, like the tonearm cable.

Regardless, I would hate to give up those expensive cables. They’re so impressive, even mind-boggling, in terms of presentation and detail. No other upgrade that I’ve ever made in this system has done so much to promote a broad, truly 3-dimensional soundstage. After I inserted them into the system, I could not stop listening to vinyl. The endorphin rush -- the thing that keeps so many of us in this hobby -- was intense.

I just hope that swapping a $2000 amp for an $11,000 amp produces as dramatic an improvement.

@cundare2

I was referring to the Acrolink 8N-A2080III having a warm and liquid midrange with a tube-like glow in the highs, not the Silver Apex which you currently own.  I don't have experience with the Silver Apex.

I consider the difference between our experiences evidence that the only way to know what a particular cable will sound like in your system is to put it in your system. Cables are extraordinarily complex beasts and can interact with other components in the craziest ways. That’s why I NEVER recommend specific cables to friends.

I agree with this. The only difference is I will recommend specific cables which I have experience with to people whereas you don’t do that. To me, cables are the same as other components such as amps or DACs. You will only know if it will work out for you once you have it in your system. The point I’m trying to convey is you may achieve your goal with a different cable rather than looking at changing amps.

helomech: "$5K-$10K amplification is going to easily outclass your speakers such that the Harbeths become the new bottleneck. I understand why that would be hard to believe given all the hype surrounding this brand, but take the Harbeths along and compare them to nearly any $10K/pair speakers on $5K electronics and you’ll understand why I say this. The resolution required to justify most $5K^ amplification (especially in the bass and highs) just isn’t there."

helomech: Hmmm... Don’t take this wrong, but your comments are at odds with those of every other person I’ve spoken to, as well as with my own first-hand experience. As I’ve mentioned, there’s no place within thousands of miles where I could "take my Harbeths." But more to the point, given that your opinion is incongruent with those of so many knowledgable, experienced persons -- from Hartley and Atkinson on down to buddies with Golden Ears (even the late Art Dudley personally recommended Harbeths to me when I was forced to sell my Quad ESLs) -- please let me know why I should take your conclusory opinions seriously without any details to back them up?

E.g., Are your comments based on first-hand direct comparisons?  If so, please be specific about source material, associated equipment, and room characteristics so others can put your observations in context. If you have something of value to offer, I would certainly give it consideration.

Thanks for your comments.

ryder:

re: Luxman, I've never heard the new Lux gear.  When I refer to the Luxman sound as "analytical," I'm merely repeating what other, ostensibly unrelated, posters have told me.  I'm ready to be convinced otherwise, but, as I'm sure you can appreciate, I don't have much to work with other than what other people are telling me.  Again, no way for me to actually hear any of this gear before I buy.

Re: Silver Apex, your observations are exactly the opposite of mine.  The only time I rigorously A-B'd my SA cables was when I used them to replace wiring in my phono path.  They produced greater detail and a more holographic soundstage, sure, but they were less sweet and as far from tube-like as I can imagine. (Did I mention that I'm a vintage tube-roller going back 40 years? I know what tubes soudn like.) 

More to the point, one reason I'm upgrading my electronics now is because the Silver Apex's "analytic" character (sorry!) actually made the flaws of my $2000 Class D amps impossible to tolerate. 

I consider the difference between our experiences evidence  that the only way to know what a particular cable will sound like in your system is to put it in your system.  Cables are extraordinarily complex beasts and can interact with other components in the craziest ways.  That's why I NEVER recommend specific cables to friends. My approach has been to learn first-hand what each mfr's "house sound" is in your system and then stick with the brand that best matches the sonic personality you need.  Analysis Plus and Audioquest (strange bedfellow, I know) seem to work best for me -- at least on segments of my system that don't include Class D amplification!

kennyc: Your last suggestion, on its face, is a logical approach. But you’ve got to understand that I’m not gonna buy a $10,000+ component unless I’m convinced that I’m likely to keep it for a very long time -- not just as a "tryout." I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I’m no spring chicken and lugging around a 50-pound box doesn’t seem like my best solution when a 24lb alternative that has more flexible connectivity (at least for my specific application) and that the overwhelming majority of those with first-hand listening experience believe is superior overall sonically, sells for $1000 less.

I sense that you have an emotional attachment to Hegel, so please don’t take offense. I’m not denigrating Hegel’s products in any way. I understand that the H600 is a superb piece of gear. It’s just that I’m now gathering that the Ayre EX-8, as far as I can tell from out here, is probably a better fit for me.

C

PS -- I was aware of Shaw’s preference for Hegel products and that Hegel amps are used in some shows’ Harbeth booths. In fact, during the first weeks of my research, the H590 & H600 were at the top of my list. It’s not fair to state that I "initially rejected" Hegel. It’s more accurate to say that I initially embraced the H600.

The thing is, the Ayre Series 8 gear turned out to be an even better choice. I suggest you do a deep dive yourself. Charlie Hansen’s "diamond" output-stage designs are brilliant -- Class A/AB amps as light, compact, and efficient as a Class D, but with superb sound quality. And from what I’ve been told repeatedly, they boast great synergy with the entire Harbeth line.

As for Krell, I’ve heard so many mixed reports about the 300i, hardware and sound quality, that I’m staying away. The clincher was when one of my closest friends on the East Coast auditioned it at length and came away with the same negative comments that I’ve heard elsewhere.  I can't speak to the issue first-hand, but the impression I get is that the 300i fails to live up to Krell's long-held reputation for excellent build quality.

OP , I suggest go for a Hegel. If you are unsatisfied then report back later why. It would give us a sonic reference point to your tastes and we may be able to steer you towards a more pleasing options.  Other choices we have to guess what ”you” like and speaker synergy more uncertain.

OP - this is simply copied from another agoner post, I’ve not verified anything:

That is a bit unfair. Shaw (Alan - Harbeth speaker designer) has talked about why he likes Hegel:
 

My position on Hegel is abundantly clear. It is the only hifi amp I have ever measured in my lab that has what I consider to be a proper gain structure throughout.

In layman's language that means that with a 'hot' source pumping audio volts into the input channel it is practically impossible to clip or overload the input. That indicates to me a mature, pragmatic real-world approach to the circuit design in a market where far too many amps have input stage clipping evidenced by the ridiculously low setting of the volume control (typically 10 o'clock or lower) at which the output clips. Hence a hard, hard, grainy sound. Indeed, I'd suspect that the extreme sensitivity of the volume control (hardly on, really loud) is prima facie evidence of clipping.

I have been playing P3XD over the last days via one of my H390s and with the volume at about 60/99, I have lots of power reserve and a clean, loud, unclipped sound.

OP- your initial rejection of Hegel seemed odd since that is a fairly well known synergistic combo.  The optional DAC is very good also.  While some discussions say that the sonic uptick for the H590 over the H390 is minor and not worth it, the new H600 seems to have significant trickle down tech upgrade.

If you can’t listen before purchasing, Hegel is safest bet. However, you can still resell it if unsatisfied and try something else.

Maybe a KRELL k-300i integrated - iBias technology allowing the amp to deliver up to the first 90W in class-A—"without the excessive heat and power consumption of traditional Class-A designs,". Review here

GanFet amps have a tubelike warmth, but hard to find in an integrated (LSA may have one).  

By the way, I wouldn’t say Luxman amps are analytical sounding amps. They are generally considered to be warm but detailed particularly the L-590AXII that I currently own. I know warm and detail appear to be contradictory but that is what I experienced in my system. To me, the L-590AXII is fairly neutral but leans slightly to warm but the detail are all there. In other words, although the Luxman leans slightly to warmth, the clarity is good as the fine detail in music is still reproduced by the amp. An example of a warm amp which masks detail (poor clarity) is the Plinius SA-100Mk3.

FWIW the Luxman is sensitive to equipment support and cabling. It keeps giving when I upgraded the equipment rack and interconnects. I recently added a new balanced XLR interconnect and it sounds different in comparison to the previous XLR cable I was using for the past 3 years.

One motivator is that after recently switching to more revealing Analysis Plus Silver Apex cables, I find I can no longer stand the sound of my last-gen Class D amps.

May I ask if the Silver Apex are speaker cables or interconnects? If it's the latter, you may want to try a used Acrolink 8N-A2080III instead of changing amps. This interconnect has a warm and liquid midrange with a tube-like glow in the highs, and it is said to match Class D or bright sounding amps well. Other alternatives include warmer sounding interconnects. 

$5K-$10K amplification is going to easily outclass your speakers such that the Harbeths become the new bottleneck. I understand why that would be hard to believe given all the hype surrounding this brand, but take the Harbeths along and compare them to nearly any $10K/pair speakers on $5K electronics and you’ll understand why I say this. The resolution required to justify most $5K^ amplification (especially in the bass and highs) just isn’t there. 
 

The aforementioned Hegel H190 integrated is the absolute max necessary for the mid-size Harbeths. I’d also look at the Yamaha A-S1200. 
 

No one mentioned Hegel H190. you don't need more power than that amp has for the Harbeths. My Stirling LS3/6 are very happy with the combination.

Sound Anchors, with Blu-tak. I think the trick with thin-walls is to do nothing that damps the cabinet resonances.

A pet peeve: A Harbeth rep said to be sure to isolate the speakers from the stands with the Blu-tak that came with the speakers. Doing so certainly did make a difference in sound quality. But it also discolored the cherry finish. Now I have yellow stains on the bottom of each cabinet. Not visible during normal usage, but still pretty annoying.

I hope you have the Harbeths on Tonträger stands, because that’s the first thing to do with them. 

You probably wouldn’t go wrong with the Ayre.

Were it me I would try the Swedish brand Moonriver, their Reference intergrated, it is an amp that was developed using BBC designed speakers and is said to be fantastic with Harbeth, Spendor and Graham Audio.

Good luck with your system matching.

I would try Sugden A21SE. My first choice would be the Luxman 590axii, although it's heavy, it's well worth it.  

Thanks arafiq!

You’re right -- I’ve done a huge amount of research b/c, frankly, even if this wasn’t a whale of a purchase, the uncertainty of buying sight unseen and sound unheard has me being obsessively cautious.  If I make a bad decision, it'll be burdensome to start over from scratch.

For the record, I did chase down every suggestion given to me in this discussion. Ayre & bel Canto were the only two that met my every non-sonic requirement (Hegel was pretty close, though). Having the chance to speak today with Adrien, presumably Charlie Hansens’ colleague and co-designer of the Series 8 models -- finally convinced me that I’d finally found the right fit.

@cundare2 You're not hurting anyone's feelings. If you have already done your research and settled on Ayre then I'm sure it must be the right choice. At the end of the day, the only person you have to please is YOU. As soix mentioned, Ayre is a great company and makes really good products. Best of luck and enjoy the music!

I’m sure you’ll be plenty happy with the Ayre.  Great stuff and can’t really go wrong. 

arafiq: I didn’t mean to hurt anybody’s feelings. The biggest reason I went with Ayre is because SO MANY Harbeth owners recommended it as a perfect match sonically.. That recommendation came up again & again in postings here & elsewhere. (Right joey 54?)

The fact that the EX-8’s connectivity & functionality fit my requirements so perfectly is icing.

Do a search & you’ll see what I mean.

I used an Ayre AX-7e and Ayre Codex DAC with my Harbeth SHL5+'s for many years. It was a fantastic match but was bettered by the EX-8 with the built -in DAC. I was just about to pull the trigger on it when Aesthetix released the Mimas integrated which I preferred over the Ayre. The Mimas weighs around 44lbs and is a Hybrid amplifier. It also costs around $10K. I tried some of the others mentioned in this thread and they were not to my liking. I subsequently sold my Harbeth's but I owned the Harbeth/Ayre combination for more than 5 years and they sound great together. Good Luck!

I find it somewhat amusing that the OP is going to go with something that “looks good on paper” and ignoring recommendations from actual Harbeth owners. But whatever works for you man. Good luck!

Final solution is starting to look like the Ayre EX-8. I’ve been doing a deep dive into so many options for over the last month. But now that the smoke is clearing it looks like this 24lb sliding Class A (sliding to AB, not D!) integrated checks every one of my boxes. How do they pump out so much power in a 3.5"-high box at such a light weight? And rReports of its synergy with Harbeths have been pretty consistent. I’m sure that some of the other products suggested in this discussion would be just as satisfying sonically, or might have similar connectivity & functionality, or might have a similar form factor. But the Ayre does it all, and even offers a 5-year transferable warranty and modular, upgradable design. What’s not to like?

soix, if I hadn’t discovered the EX-8, your H390 suggestion would have been my next stop. Given that the Ayre runs $8-11K, depending on configuration, that would have saved me more than enough for a few Happy Meals But I expect this to be my last amplifier, so I’m willing plunder my retirement nest egg this one time.

Hey, thanks again everybody for this lively, very informative discussion.You guys are great. And I love this hobby!

My next request for advice will be about which DAC/streamer to front-end the Ayre with. Watch this space!

If you’re considering the H590 you might consider the H390 as it’s a little lighter and still puts out 250Wpc, costs a lot less, and Soundstage found them to be sonically very similar.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1365-hegel-music-systems-h390-integrated-amplifier-dac
 

Hope this helps. 

bassdude: Whoa, you're speaking my language!  The H590 was definitely on my short list.  It's only real drawback is that it weighs 50 pounds, but that alone wouldn't be a dealbreaker.

And since the release of the H600,  used units abound.  Try to find a used Ayre 8 Series.  They do pop up, but are gone pretty quick.

mofojo:

>No digital sources needed because you play nothing digital or you have a good DAC? 

The latter.  And in generaly, I try to stay away from internal DACs bundled into other components.

As you likely know, Harbeth often drive their speakers at shows with Hegel amps and suggest SS amps to drive them.

I was not pleased with the sound of my 30.1’s or 40.2’s until I got the H590 to drive them, which does an excellant job of controlling their drivers, making them sound a lot like Quad ESL 57’s.  Sounds better with the H590 than with my ARC Ref 150SE.

@cundare2 - Ayre is great!

No digital sources needed because you play nothing digital or you have a good DAC? 

Thanks, dweller.  I hope to take a look at those BAT models tonight.

And Plinius, for that matter.

I'm finding that bel Canto's E1X integrated may be another contender.  So far, Ayre's EX-8 (can't they come up with more distinct model names?) looks like it'll be hard to beat, at least on paper.

@cundare2  I posted my comment early this morning (couldn't sleep). My first post attempt stated my experience at an audio show where the Harbeth 7.3 was mated with a Plinius Class A SS amp. Sounded heavenly. This first iteration was deleted accidentally and the second one is what you see.

At any rate, you can't go wrong with BAT. 60-day return policy from Uncle Kevin at Upscale. I've owned this integrated twice and currently use a VK-33SE/VK-255SE combo. 

OP, regarding the Benchmark, like everything it comes down to synergy and personal preferences.  Can the Benchmark compete with more expensive gear?  Absolutely.  But, it’s not pretty to look at if you want something that looks like Mac, Lux, or Accuphase!  That said, back to synergy, I found that the Harbeths have their own nice, warmish, round sound.  The Benchmarks are super neutral sounding, so you get what the speakers have to offer without any additional coloration.  The star of the pair is probably the preamp (LA4).  Very high resolution and lots of flexibility.  I prefer a neutral sound more than “tubey”, so that may be why I liked the Benchmark.  But overall I think the synergy is great between them and the Harbeths for the reason I mentioned,