http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1041348528&openusid&zzTok20000&4&5#Tok20000Bob, all I have to say is their EMC-1 mk2 may be the best product that Electro makes. And even at that, I would never buy from a company who's distributers treat customers poorly. Please see the above thread. Anyway, there are TONS of better amps and preamps and integrated amps out there that are better than what Electrocompaniet has to offer. Especially preamps... Electro preamps have a lot to be desired in every aspect from sound to build quality. Their amplifiers are at least built pretty well. Tell me how much you want to spend, and I will make a suggestion on seperates of an integrated amp that will knock the socks off (sonically) of any Electro gear. It would also help telling us your speakers and approximately how much amplification power you need and what you are usining now. KF |
Their intergrateds have gotten some decent press, but for the price I found used Pass Labs Aleph P and 2 monos to offer a best match with my system. Though not wanting to gild the lily, you MUST be careful if you're buying a used EC unit (see the aforementioned thread). I too LOVE my EMC-1 MkII but have had a horrible experience trying to obtain a mod for it. Remember that any consumer item hopping the pond will be more expensive than its native counterpart. There are MANY US-made amplifiers to consider that may be more cost-effective. The EMC-1 is unique, and as such may be worth the bother. Good Luck. |
Look elsewhere - check the thread mentioned above. |
If you buy Electrocompaniet, your equipment may not have very good resale value on this website. This is an important consideration for me in purchasing new equipment. |
Tok20000,
I have a pair of Tyler acoustics Lynbrook monitors. They are rated at 91db. I have a budget of $3,000 - $4,500 and would prefer purchasing used equipment in great condition.I am using a BEL Mk11 amp 50 watts that drive these speakers with ease. Thanks everyone for your feed back. I look forward to any other suggestions for other equipment.
Bob |
I wouldn't count out Electro yet. If you have heard it and like it, it shouldn't matter what others think. |
I'd buy Balanced Audio Technology rather than EMC. In fact, I did (and boy am I glad I did!). The BAT stuff sounds fantastic, looks great, and is very reliable. You have a wide range of choices in the BAT amplifier and preamplifier line-up, and they brought out an awesome integrated last year that's well worth considering. It's comforting to know BAT cares about their customers and are available to answer questions, repair, or perform upgrades as required. |
Bob,
I agree with Seth; if you are interested in Electro, do not discredit them over the one issue being mentioned.
EC has been around for 30 years, they didn’t achieve this by not being a good company. The aforementioned thread has brought people out of the wood work to thrash a company over a situation we do not even know the why’s and where’s of the Companies thinking.
The internet, has brought a whole new set of circumstances that companies are having to work with, some of which will be learned through trial and error.
If you are to go to www.mcintoshlabs.com, you will get the disclaimer that I list below. Here is just another example of another long standing company trying to confront new issues; where is the Mac outrage?
For the Consumer’s Protection:
In order to ensure the highest level of customer satisfaction, “new” McIntosh products may only be purchased over-the-counter or delivered and installed by an Authorized McIntosh Dealer.
McIntosh products that are purchased over the Internet, by phone or mail order are presumed to be “used” and do not qualify for any McIntosh Warranty.
McIntosh does not warrant, in any way, products that are purchased from anyone who is not an Authorized Dealer or that had their serial number altered or defaced.
***
That said, I believe the EMC1 to be an awesome player, but as for the rest of EC, I agree with the others that there is a lot of other equipment to consider as well; then again, that is not your question. |
We are not talking about warranty - we are talking about service. Mcintosh will help you or audioclassics will help you get a unit fixed no matter where you bought it. I like EC products and as long as they working you are fine. When they break -- look out. This is experience talking not some guy thinking if you like it buy it. |
All of what has been posted is accurate. While Electro has been around for 30+ years, they have historically been slow and/or uncaring about after sales service. It is both a combination of cultural differences between the US and Norway and the way the company has always been privately funded and managed. The CD player is great. The old 25 and 60 watt amps were the better amps. Their pre amps have always had problems.
MAS Imports were one of the best importers (now Camelot Technologies) and if they gave up, then think twice about Electro separates.
Stick with your Bel(great amp)and take the time to listen to and select a preamp that does what you want it to. Maybe you need to repost your thread and focus on recommendations for a new preamp. I have gone passive, and have not paid much attention to preamps for some time. But, I have listend to the following and like what I have heard. I am also familar with your amp. Consider CJ, BAT, Sonic Frontier, 47 Labs and Manley. Good luck. |
Well Said, and thanks for a voice of reason.
Rusty |
The only way to get Electrocompaniet to care about their customers and improve on their service, is to stop buying their products. This does the job most of the time, in the business world. I don't care how good their CDP is, how cheap it can be bought; if the service is poor I'm going elsewhere. Which I have done. |
Electrocompaniets current wowes with customers isn't something new to them. Years ago customers complained of amps "blowing up". I'm hesitant to repeat "rumours" but the reason "rumoured" for the past problems was blamed on a distributor who took it on himself to "moddify" the amps by removing some protection circuitry in an effort to improve the sound. I have always liked Electrocompaniets stuff, though it really isn't to my particular taste. I always thought of their stuff as being a poor man's Mark Levinson. There seems to be a place for something like that. Untill the current debacle with Subaruguy is cleared up in a satisfactory and expediant manner I can no longer recommend their stuff. Damn shame that an other wise legitimate company suffers because they can't get their distributors in line. Buy Electrocompaniet at your own risk! |
There are way better components out there for amp and pre then the Electrocompaniet. I went through all of this for the past year, tried many preamps and amps. AND when it all came down to it, they each have their own personallity. I preferred the Pass Labs components in my system. Are they the best I heard, No, but overall, there is no best, just compromises. After buying the Pass, I inquired about a shorter connecting cable between the preamp and power supply for the X-1. This is cheap cord that I probably could have bought for under $10. Peter at Pass asked for my home address and within two days, I had a cord delivered, at their cost. Look at my recent thread and see how they handle customers even after the warranty is over.
Sorry, but the EMC-1 is now off of my list, remember it may be very good but there are others that are just as good plus I can get treated like they want me as a customer.
Peter |
Thanks for all the replies on Electrocompaniet equipment. It seem that there are to many complaints about customer service to be ignored. This says alot about the company. It looks like I will look elsewhere to upgrade my system. Again thanks. |
While this thread appears to have met its goal of allowing Bobheinatz to hear about some of our experiences with Electro amps, allow me to shed the last light to set the record straight.
None of the importers did anything to mod or max-out the amps. They all tried hard. Cultural commumications and other reasons mentioned were the real problems. The importers were never supported the way an American company supports its distribution system.
The amps have always sounded good. Some even great. Per Abrahamson is a great designer and knows how to design great products. But Electro was based on European electrical current, which is a very stable 240 volts, unlike the 110 in the US. The US power supplies were never stable and if the on/off button was not pushed on with one smooth push, the potential to blow the power boards existed. A fuse and a safety circuit were later added.
The amps pushed all the internal components to their limits, which caused them to break, burned out, etc. Was this a design ahead of its time or a bad design?
The circuit boards on many of the earlier amps were hand soldered, not wave soldered. Quality control was as good as could have been expected, until UPS got its hands on the amps. The hand soldered circuit boards could not tolerate the less than professional handling by UPS. UPS single-handedly destroyed the first shipment of the 250 watt amps. These amps were big and heavy. UPS dropped them on a regular basis causing large capacitors to break off the boards and other solder joints to crack. Once heated up, the weak joints caused the amps to shut down.
Electro went over to expensive injected foam packaging and through bolting large capacitors to the circuit board, but UPS still broke amps.
Draw your own conclusions. Many of us are business professionals. Electro has been around for 30 years because it does make good products. It does not necessarily understand this (the US) market. |
IMPORTANT NEWS:
Audiogon has mysteriously closed the important "HELP Electro..." thread, and blocked my posting an "extension" thread entitled ELECTROCOMPANIET REDUX!
This happens at a VERY inopportune time, as just this morning I received an email from an EC/NORWAY tech informing me that he read this thread, apologized for my unfortunate Christmas incident, and that he will assemble the mod parts to sell me as a DIY install kit!
No mention was made of the larger issues re customer support in North America, however. I must stress that the afore-mentioned thread must not be allowed to end as-is, as it may very much affect EC's future in the US. EC is now reaching out in goodwill, and the 600+ viewers of the thread should be made aware of this to ensure a balanced view. How do I ensure this is accomplished? I can't email 600 people! Sheesh.
Thanks.
Ern |
I will start the process of allowing Electro to recover.
I used their products for years and loved the sound. They make good product as I stated. They suffer from cultural and 110 volt issues. Both of which can be corrected if they spend more time in the US with customers, retailers and editors to learn how the game is played over here. THEN they need to go home and TELL their management and investors that the US is different and will be a better market for them if they change to support the market. No one is saying that the US is better, just different. Their decision makers then need to make the committment instead of ignoring reality. Too many small European companies cannot accept that US reality is real because it is so different.
Different is not bad, just something that requires some attention.
However, change is a slow process and rebuilding trust is even slower.
They now seem to have the ability and desire to change so we should all give them a chance. We have done an excellent job complaining and sharing our dismay. Now, let's respond to the positive signal they sent Ern and see if they can continue and commit to US quality control.
I invite the people from Electro to come and hang out with me for a few days. I am a management consultant and will donate some time to move them forward. |
Audiogon has temporarily reopened the original "HELP Electro..." thread. Ern |
EC received payment for the EMC-1 MkII "UP" mod parts and says they shipped them with installation instructions today.
Yippee! |
Cellorover, your commendable attitude (to donate some of your time) may be the biggest break for EC; manufacturer & users alike. Good for you (if I may)! |
Ern,
Glad to see things are looking up for you with the EMC service. Yippee to you also!!!
Peter |
Congratulations Ernie!!!
It is wonderful to hear that Electrocompaniet stepped up to the plate to make things right. Unfortunately, it seems as if the solution required EC to go around the line in the sand distributor. Which doesn't really make the situation better holistically. Hopefully, I am wrong, and Allan was part of the mix.
Enjoy what is definitely one of the best digital playback systems attainable! |
EC emailed a couple of board photos yesterday with the list of 20 or so diodes and three caps that comprise the mod. Hope it arrives soon.... |
Subaruguru, it's been over a month and all you recieved were a couple of e-mailed photos of diodes and caps? They've got to be kidding! Recently, Thiel arranged for shipping for both my floor standing speakers to their factory where they tested them, repaired them, retested them, and shipped them back to me in less than a week. They arranged for a corporate discount on trucking rates. There was no charge for labor. Didn't bill me till I recieved them back. Oh yeah, my warranty ran out 5 years ago. |
Subaruguru - quite frankly, I am shocked that the company is charging you for the mod. As an accomodation for all of the time, effort, and goodwill you have shown through your patience, I would have expected the company to comp. you the kit and send you a lengthy apology with an accompanied mention of the action they plan to take with the distributor to ensure that this sort of incident does not happen again to other consumers. Selling you a do it yourself mod kit after all of the crap you have gone through is an insult. How about billing them for your wasted time and effor at your hourly billing rate? That would seem to be fair to me at this point. I for one, after reading that thread, will never purchase a product by that company. |
This experience and the mysterious thread shut-down have indeed cowered me into a position of being grateful for crumbs. Yet the upgrade costs only $82.50 (inc bank wire) for an $800 retail mod! But I'll report more fully AFTER I get the diodes and caps and get them installed. It had better go smoothly, eh? Keep in touch. Ern |
Subaruguru: $800 retail for parts that cost less than $80!!! This should tell you something about EC. How much do you think are the parts for an entire EMC 1 mk2 UP?
Ernie, all I have to say is what are you going to do the next time they offer an upgrade (give em a year)? I hate saying this, but I think EC as a company handled this incorrectly. They should have asked you to keep this transaction ($80 for the $800 upgraded parts) private, and not post it on the net.
This sets a bad president for EC. Think of how owners of the EMC-1 mk2 are going to feel after they find out the specifics of this deal. First of all they are going to know that they would be paying around (including an hour of labor) five times the price of the parts for the upgrade + labor if they have the EC Distributor do this upgrade. This is a complete rip off. Second, they will be wondering (if they to have a grey market unit), if they can follow the same coarse of action you took Ernie to get the kind of deal from EC on this upgrade. Thirdly, people who bought their EMC-1 mk2's from a dealer in the US will probably wonder if their is any way for them to get the same deal as well.
If I were the EC Distributor, I would be a bit upset at EC for not instructing you Ernie to not air the specifics of this transaction to the audio public. I know it is going to cause him heart ache later down the road.
I beleive in being honest, but offering up information like you have Ernie is going to cost you down the road. If you ever have to deal with the EC distributor again, you may find yourself totally blacklisted (and for discussing the specific costs of the parts for that upgrade, he'd probably be justified).
If I were EC, I would have charged you $600 to $800 for the parts just to be fair to all the other US EC EMC-1 mk2 owners (or at the very least they should have made you sign a non disclosure agreement about the transaction).
But as I have stated before, EC gear is way overpriced, and Ernie has independantly confirmed it.
KF |
Makes one wonder about the integrtiy of those charging $800 for a mod based upon $82.50 worth of parts. While there is a deserved profit for design and development, it seems to be a little excessive to me. For your sake and the sake of this firm I was really hoping this situation would work out, but the rate of progress is really discouraging. Thanks for the updates, you help us all. Good luck to all parties concerned. |
Tok2000, I think it would be really bad form for EC to sell Ernie the goods at the expense of his freedom of speech. Just think what the backlash might be like if Ernie turned them down and reported the reason he couldn't get the upgrade. Your business advise is one that endorses a form of collusion and undermines all of us here on Audiogon. Your free to express your opinion, but, please consider the ramifications. |
Unsound,
I am all for freedom of speech. And it is not collusion for a manufacturer or even a dealer to request that you not announce the price you paid to the public for a particular item. Especially if someone is getting something AT COST for 20% of what everyone else is getting. Manufacturers do their best to conceal their exact cost on their products. This information is CONFIDENTIAL to a manufacturer. They do not want the public to know this confidential costs. And the public really does not have a RIGHT to know (no laws state that a manufacturer has to inform the public of their costs). So where is the collusion? Non disclosure agreements are signed all the time in the business world. Many times if I am talking to a manufacturer of a specialty wireless telecommunications product (I am in wireless), we have to end up signing an NDA. This is simple business. We cannot have them talking about our system specifics to others and they do not want us discussing their products or pricing with others.
EC IMHO SHOULD have charged Ernie more to preserve the integrity of their product and the integrity of others who are going to do the upgrade of the product in the future at full price. By charging Ernie 20% of retail (and Ernie effectively posting it online), EC has made a serious error in judgement. If I were making the decision, I would have charged Ernie $500 to $600, basically $200-$300 off for his time, effort, and because he is going to do the installation. This would have at least preserved EC some integrity.
Think about it.... How would you feel if you had a EMC-1 mk2 unit and wanted to get it upgraded now????? You take it to a dealer and he says the upgrade will be $800. You say, I know that this guy at Audiogon got the parts for $80, and the labor cannot be more than an hour or so. Why should I pay $800 for something that costs Ernie $80 or so + his time to do the upgrade?
Personally if I had an EMC-1 mk2 and wanted to upgrade, I would be very upset. Luckily I sold my EMC-1 mk2 over a year ago.
Back to collusion. Just because a manufacturer tries to not let the public know their exact part costs, this is NOT collusion. This situation is very much like being employed by a company and the relative salaries. Any company will tell their employees DO NOT discuss your salary with your fellow co-workers. It is NOT collusion for a company to keep people from discussing and finding out other employees salaries. This is confidential information, and knowing another's sallary can only really lead to negative situations. It is the same thing as knowing the exact costs of the parts a manufacturer pays for a particulat item. This information should be considered confidential by any manufacturer. If the public knows the exact costs of components a manufacturer makes, it can only lead to negative situations for the manufacturer.
Personally, I am happy that they solved Ernie's problem. I am even happy that Ernie got a heck of a deal. But I feel a bit badly for other EC owners who will have to pay ECs 500% mark up on the parts and labor if they want to upgrade their EMC-1 mk2's in the future.
I am just glad I do not own any EC gear now because if I did, I would sell it on principle alone. People representing EC handled this poorly from day one, and it does not surprise me that EC is also making mistakes in solving this problem.
KF |
Tok20000, Of course you are absolutley correct...in ordinary circumstances. These are pecular circumstances. In this circumstance Ernie was denied satisfaction going through the traditional channels. As such he appealed to the Audiogon community for help and satisfaction. His appeal was welcome, because by it's very nature it helped the Audiogon community from having to repeat his misadventure with this particular manufacturer and it's distributor. The Audiogon community is now party to the issue. It would be somewhat disingenous for Ernie to appeal to the Audiopgon community, recieve satisfaction and then turn his back on them by not disclosing all the details, which would have put the community he appealed to in the same jepoardy. This manufacturer and it's distributor had every opportunity to maintain the confidentiality of their business proceedings, but they blew it. Much like the scenerio when one party takes another party to court, those confidential issues becomes public. Definition of collusion: Secret agreement for a wrongfull purpose, especialy between persons wishing to defraud another or between persons who wish to appear as adversaries. Considering all the details, I think the word is appropriate. |
I'm sorry, but I for one do not and will not ever think that Ernie got a heck of a deal. I will bet that Ernie's time is valuable. He has not been compensated for the time and effort he put into this nor for the time he will have to spend to install the parts. In addition, I also feel that we as consumers have the right to as much information as we can ferret out about a retailer, distributor, or manufacturer, in order for us to make fully informed choices about what we consume. Its a free market after all - and I for one would like to be as informed as possible before I make my choice. |
A very interesting thread.I salute Audiogon for not shutting it down though it does not belong here.I am having trouble to form the opinion on all this.Still I believe that 'negative advetising' is a good thing,and it looks like this company deserves it;like many others.But,I must say that this is not a truly free market,in fact it is highly regulated with many things going on beyond our awareness.Tok20000,any agreement can be bought out-the price should be right.Now,that's free market. |
I have a similar situation to Ernie's, in that I bought an EMC-1 MKII last year which turned out to be sold through the Danish distributor. I decided to inquire directly with EC about the U.S distributor's poor handling of non-U.S point of origin EC products. Tell me if you think I'm wrong, but it seems from their message that they may have had a little talk with the distributor, Alan for his handling of this situation. Their response to my inquiry may mean that, in the future, others in Ernie's and my position should be able to have their EC products updated regardless of the point of origin. Maybe there's hope for EC, yet?? Here is a copy of their response.
Dear Mr. Shapiro.
Thank's for your consern. Our policy is to help coustomers, regardless where they have bought our product. So I think the matter discussed on the web, was an singel case and not our distributers in the US normal policy. I can not answer for him, but I will think in the future he will upgrade any products even if they were bought on the moon..... But to his defending, I can understand his way of thinking to keep the secondhand prizes higer.
Best wishes, Vigleif - EC |
Inna, you must be late to this thread, you give Audiogon too much credit in this regard. Audiogon's policy seems to oscillate, without reasons given. I couldn't disagree with you more about it belonging here.
Hshapiro, I'm not sure what to make of it. I suspect that the issue came to be and came to be maintained by the distributor. That doesn't let the manufacturer off the hook. Seeing how they have the most vested interest, this should have been resolved in a much more expeditious way. I still have hope that they will resolve this and make the necessary moves to provide appropriate customer service. |
Tok2000, I'm having a VERY hard time with your perspective, and punishing invective.
I received the mod parts in today's mail. 24 tiny diodes and 3 capacitors. They SOLD them to me for $65, just like ANY manufacturer would sell spare parts. I haven't opened up the EMC-1 yet, but I suspect that it would take a good couple of hours to carefully replace these tiny parts.
The history of the mod is as follows: Talon in Canada took it upon themselves to upgrade their EMC-1, and liked the results enough to suggest it to EC, who concurred, and paid them for the info. EC then put this mod into production. It was decided that EC would upgrade older EMC-1 MKII if returned to them, for a fee (much less in Europe, but individually decided by each Euro-dealer, at least up until now). In the case of far-flung 44lb CDPs, EC sells the parts kits to their distributor or dealer, who then decides what the installation price would be. If there's a local dealer involved as well, then the handling of a 50lb box becomes quite a nuisance. The list price for the mod is $800, and about $500 to the dealers. the distributor has to buty the parts ($65?), and then hire a tech to install them, and redeliver the unit to the local dealer, perhaps.
The pricing of $800 probably reflects the incredible inefficiency of all this handling, in combination with highish tech rates in the Northeast, and a healthy profit for being bothered by EC's decision to offer it?!
I'll not comment on the fairness of charging $800 for the installation of $65 worth of parts.
Do you know how much it costs to replace a 25 cent leaky oil-pump o-ring in a Subaru? $300. Fact of life.
I don't for a minute believe that EC, or its Servige Manager (Vigleif), expected me to hold confidential my cost for the parts I purchased. YOU can go to Subaru and buy a 25 cent o-ring (for $5). People accept that installing it will cost $300 to stop an oil leak...or they don't.
But nobody is going to get upset by the possibility of a purchaser relating to his community that he purchased the part for 25 cents on his own, right?
There are probably 25-50 gray-market EMC-1MK II in North America (just a rough guess). If EC chooses to sell the parts for said "UP"grade to end users for $65 because their distributor refuses to perform installation of said parts, then where exactly is the problem?
Certainly NOT with me as the purchaser, nor in my decision to inform the 800+ viewers of the initial thread for which this information holds interest.
To suggest that EC charge me $400-800 for an ounce of tiny parts would have reignited a firestorm, to say the least.
Part of me was hoping that EC would have sent me the parts at no charge, or even asked me to send them the boards and install them at EC for QA, given the time and misfortune that came my way back in December.
But at $65 and a month's wait I'll hardly complain, and hope that the installation goes easily. I will probably hire the most proficient tech I know in the Boston area to perform the installation, because he has a wave solderer, and said third-party installation will protect me from finger-pointing if something goes wrong.
Again, Tok, I really feel that you've got it all wrong.
Vigleif NEVER asked me to keep ANY information or correspondence confidential! He simply sold me some parts normally used in manufacture. I never asked him for a special price nor pressured them in ANY way. I'm sure that he would corroborate that. I do NOT know if EC will sell these parts to other EMC-1 users in North America. certainly a misguided installation would void the warranty.
EC was successful in having their local dealers install the previous entire DAC boards for a $1000 list price ($600 US wholesale and Euro-retail).
Whether this latest mod was considered too tricky to install (soldering), or profit protection was sought at the distributor/manufacturer level I'll never know. I will not make judgements there. I suspect that the decision to offer this power supplies parts upgrade was done after the fact.
I don't know. I don't see EC as the greedy party here.
A corporate customer developed a mod and they introduced it into their manufacture, and then folks heard about it and requested it. What's the big deal? Two dozen cheap, tiny diodes and three small caps. Probably $20 at Allied....
When my wife saw the bag, she was shocked that all this hoopla was about such a small thing....
I hope to get some time next week to drag my EMC-1 down to Cambridge to set up the upgrade installation. Vigleif was careful to list parts positions and include two photos showing the new capacitor positioning.
Re my time, yes I would have very gladly preferred to have initially paid the $650 price quoted to me by Fathers & Sons, had my upgrade installed in December, and be enjoying well before now. That you, Tok, see that somehow I should be castigated AGAIN for showing EC's goodwill by relating the continuing facts in this saga is nearly incredulous to me! I'm glad EC sees that even a lunar owner deserves better treatment in the future, and that improved services will be available for all units while they reside in North America.
Let's say I was sold the "secret" beachsand (!) that sits in a well-known $$$ PC for $1. And I told folks about it.
Would you then also cast aspersions on my relating that cost? My daughter buys skeins of really nice mohair wool for $5 or whatever. Should that be kept confidential to protect those who've purchased $300 sweaters? Isn't it all in the design, knitting, handling and marketing?
In some ways I feel this is another case where a certain minority prefers to shoot the messenger of news that should predominantly have good effect for the majority of a community. Price-fixing, secret agreements with customers, and after-market poor service are NOT the hallmarks of a successful company in the 21st century.
I'll try to start a concluding thread after the installation. In the meantime please refrain from sniping.
Thanks, and thanks to all of you who've emailed in support.
Good Night. Ern |
Tok, I reread your posts again, and feel a bit less defensive now, as I see that your intent is less personal than I felt the first time I perused them....
You strongly feel that the EMC-1 is very overpriced. At $5500 I may agree, as the Euro list is $3300, and upgrades as well are about 60% of North America. To some extent the inefficiency of selling internationally requires expensive middlemen (distributors) and extra handling. I was shocked to see what Wadia sells for in the UK, for example. Or my beloved Pass Labs stuff.
I do NOT share your perspective on blaming EC for the cost of their products here. I'll be generous and state that they probably don't DEEPLY discount to distributors (vis a vis Euro-dealers), so US list prices catapult upward. They simply don't care to "buy" the American market. Distributors and dealers each want healthy margins for luxury products, so we end up with $5500 prices.
I'm much more concerned with cost/performance relative valuations with PCs, ICs and speaker cables than with 20kg
high-tech components.
EC properly chose to NOT ask for non-disclosure from me, and thus remain compromised in the view of many A'goners.
They are acting honorably, professionally (they DID charge me!), and are addressing their aftermarket service practices.
I see no negative downwind effect for them or for me. And see no reason why there should be. |
Ernie, believe what you wish. You are personally involved in this endeavor. Plus you love your EC CDP. These two facts gives me pause to consider your perspective slanted. I am trying to look at this from a neutral perspective. BTW: Euro list of the player when the EMC-1 mk2 first came out was $2k US. I know this because I have a friend who got one over in Denmark when they first came out. Pause and consider that for a sec. I have no animosity towards you, but if I had any EC gear, I would sell it in a heartbeat. I am glad that you got your situation resolved, but I think you crossed the line when you posted specific prices online. As much as I value that information, if it were me, I would have had a bit more discretion. Call me old fashioned, but if you noticed, when I have a beef with someone and I take it online, I do not name names. Proof of this can be seen on a thread I did a while back: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1036622016&openusid&zzTok20000&4&5#Tok20000Anyway, Ernie, your posts here at Audiogon will have repercussions (some will be negative) for both yourself and EC. If you doubt this, just wait until the next upgrade comes out for the EC player. What will you do? Go to the distributor who you drug through the mud online? Go directly to EC again? You put yourself in a tough postition. But who knows? EC could really like you and give you the next upgrade for their cost as well... I do not know what will happen, but your posts here at Audiogon will effect transactions you will do in the future. This does not even cover the unlikely event you decide to sell your player..... Anyway, I am done with this thread. So good luck! KF |
Tok, Pee in the sandbox and run, eh? To state that I "drug" (sp) the distributor through the mud" is preposterous. Didn't you read what happened? The MkII NorthAmerican/Euro costs were $4000/$2300 just before the DAC was announced, then went to $5000/$2800-equivalent with the DAC announcement, and to $5500/$3200 with the "UP" grade, for info to all concerned. I repeat that EC chose to SELL me the parts for an upgrade, probably at normal spare parts markup. Why can't you see the facts here clearly, like apparently everyone else? I'd really appreciate it if you could rewind, review, and stop blaming the messenger.
Sigh.... |
Subaruguru as a member of Audiogon you owe us the truth and you delivered. Anything but and you would have been just like the companies that can't explain things or do not want you to look inside their stuff because you would find out just what we paid all the money for. Everything in the high end is pretty much a rip off or close to it and as members of the hobby we know that. I am glad EC at least did this for you. Tok has his own opinion and so be it. Ernie , you did the right thing. Amen! |
Ernie, while I wish you the best of luck, my only concern is if the parts are up to spec. Most of us don't have the necessary equipment to test them. |
There isn't the SLIGHTEST question in my mind that their service manager (Vigleif) would send me anything but the correct "UP"grade parts. There's no reason to question his veracity. So it's now up to me to be especially careful to ensure proper installation. Hence I'll hire the head tech at Audio Lab in Cambridge to install these tiny diodes and their new saddled caps. I suppose he could check the diode function and cap "charge curve" (or whatever) beforehand, just in case. I'll try to start a thread to report findings to all (there over 800 views of the original "HELP Electro...." thread), as I do NOT want ECs reputation to be negaitively affected by the reporting of my unfortunate experience. G'night guys...and Judith. |
I don't doubt that they sent you the correct parts. |
Im glad things are finally going your way Ernie. |
I visited my pro tech today (they're going to sell the PCs I started making last fall! ha.), and derek thinks that replacing the 24 diodes may be a bit tedious as the board photos seem to indicate double-sided boards. So I'll let him do it indeed. The parts consist of 24 tiny identical diodes and three ordinary electrolytics that connect across them. Nothing else on the DAC or analogue board, though, just the power supplies' diodes. Wish I could tell you definitively if I can hear a difference afterward. I'll be back after the mod. Thanks. BTW, the diodes say MUR 120 0247 pk on them. My tech didn't recognize them. Anything exotic? Cheers. |
Hi guys. I took a few cleansing breaths and plowed ahead, installing the 27 parts myself. Differences in soundstage "fleshiness" are immediate, and positive. Top octave extension is improved, and a delight!
EC has restated that the US distributor WILL service all EMC-1 EXCEPT those graymarketed into the US. O boy....
My estimate is that there are a bunch (including the dozen or so Danish-sourced units) out there that are the MKII WITHOUT the "UP"grade. If any owners of these would like to have the "UP'grade installed let me know. Maybe I can help.
All other service requests should of course be made at one's local EC dealer. Cheers.
Ern |
Congratulations, I'm really happy your pleased with the results. How long did it take? Sorry, but I find EC's position on this matter unacceptable. I will not buy or recommend their products so long as they maintain this policy. |
It seems that EC has again changed their "policy" regarding the US distributor's unwillingness to service Danish-sourced units. This policy directly contradicts the e-mail EC sent to me last month where they said, "Our policy is to help coustomers (sic), regardless where they have bought our product. I can not answer for him, but I will think in the future he will upgrade any products even if they were bought on the moon."
Maybe they should have said that he will upgrade any products "only" if they were bought on the moon. |
Ha! Again, they said that the distributor would support ALL units EXCEPT graymarketed items marketed by the Danish distributor. EC will NOT sell the "UP"grade mod directly again, so that DOES leave a few "untouchables". I'm offering to help these few guys with this particular mod, but NOT a general repair service. The "UP"grade mod is tedious to install, but I worked carefully and was successful, so would be willing to help out a similar soul or two.
I'm not sure I'd blame EC for all this. There's only so much muscling they can do to their distributors, I guess. |
