Dynamic range - effect on different speaker cables - even very high quality ones
I have siltech Emperor double crown speaker cables. I recently bought Tara Omega Gold. The difference was very strange, and significant. I could not put my finger on it and changed interconnects to see if there was a compatibility issue. The Siltechs brought out superbly the main "players" and that sound was bang in my face - great. But it was a bit lean in other areas (more periphery sounds such as tinkling of percussion here and there - that sort of thing). The Omegas were exceptionally clean and detailed with EVERYTHING coming through, top to bottom, but no particular light and shade that the Siltechs gave. As such, a great pure sound but a bit soulless and didn't give me the bite that the Siltechs did. I cannot survive life without the hit that the Siltechs give, so have kept those installed and I use the Omegas in an analogue set up (also lower dynamic range it seems) to enjoy those more
My false assumption before was that different cables had different qualities, and (or but) the basics of each recording would be dealt with principally the same i.e. just a different "house" sound My dealer was nonplussed too as my description of the differences was a bit out of the ordinary, and the difference were VERY stark. I have tried many different cables over the years and never encountered this issue.
By asking around he came up with an interesting "reasoning"
Normal "players" or sources chuck out at a dynamic range of 70db. My DCS upsampler/clock/dac sends out at twice that, and the cables may get over saturated with the sound and act differently. It may appear that excessive dynamic range was not particularly an issue when they designed the cables and so the effect might be unpredictable? Does anyone have a practical experience of this too - and I suppose the theory buffs out there could confuse me yet more.
I hesitate to comment on this post as it seems to have devolved into a lot of name calling instead of thoughtful reasoned discussion. I agree with kalali that the answer to the OP has to do with the recordings. Am curious if the OP used the same recordings to compare the difference in the sound. Additionally would be helpful to know what the recordings are.
With respect to the general discussion about whether or not one hears a difference in cables and that there have not been any "scientific" papers published that can elaborate / quantify said difference. I believe this to be an ongoing debate, and is that not what science is all about?
If we did not hear differences in the way audio gear reproduces music / sound then we would all have the same audio gear. I may be wrong but I believe the impetus for HP starting TAS was from listening to a pair of Bose 901's and not liking their sound. Additionally, that even with measurements posted in competing magazines they could not fully explain the differences in sound.
I can only speak for myself and will give two examples. The first one being when cd's were introduced. The hype was "perfect sound forever". A friend of mine had purchased a mid-level cd player and had a reasonably good sounding analog system. After listening to several cd's my comment was that I found the sound "irritating". He did not.
At the time I did not know why, but I knew what I heard and it informed my opinion of what cd's sounded like. With further reading, studying, listening and analysis we now know why there was a difference in the sound. That difference may not be noticeable or objectionable to some but to others it is. My friend and I have a difference of opinion but we are still friends.
The second example deals with power conditioning. I had been reading a lot about how power can influence the sound of an audio system. At the time I was very skeptical of this and did not really believe it could make that much of a difference. I work in a scientific field and a division of ours installs diagnostic equipment. I was discussing these articles with a colleague of mine in that department and he told me that the biggest issue they have with our machines is the power grid. "Dirty power" as he termed it has a dramatic impact on the sensitivity of the equipment and they routinely have to install power conditioning devices in order for the equipment to function properly. They loaned me one of the power conditioners to take home and try out in my system.
After setting everything up I was quite surprised at the difference in the sound. My system at the time did not have any expensive power cords, interconnects or speaker cables. And yet there was a noticeable improvement in the sound so much so that even my wife, who only casually listens to music, heard the difference.
The point of these two examples is that some people will hear a difference and some will not. Some people will want to purchase items that to their ears will make a difference in the sound. The good news is there are a lot of us that hear a difference and want to try and improve our sound systems.
Full disclosure of my bias over a period of years I have upgraded my PC, Interconnects and Speaker cables to Siltech G6 with SATT Emperor, Compass Lake, Forbes Lake, Avondale, and SPX Power Cords.
tbakin63
Yes your contributions have dragged it down with your inane comments. Indeed I don't like the answers by a batch of naysayers who do not understand a question. You probably do not accept that comment either, that is the nature of your being.
OP, your question was answered in the very first response:
"Dynamic range is more likely a function of the recording than the source component. I’m not aware of any commercial recording with DR in excess of 100dB and most commercial recordings don’t even contain a 70dB DR." And speaker cables, regardless of the price, interact electrically differently with the amplifier and the speakers they are connecting thus they can sound different. It just seems like you did not like the answer you were given and keep dragging this thread into the mud.
I also use two different sets (Siltec Prince & Transparent XL) of (digital + Intercon + speaker) cables for different music or different recording sound quality. You can hear the big differentce from different cable which means all your gears (transport, dac, preamp, poweramp, speaker) are all top high products.. The lower level gears used, the less difference can be heard. It's a kind of enjoyment to hear the diffenence that most people unable to enjoy it. Isn't it!
You keep confirming you are nuts. You have been asked to desist, but insist on ramming your drivel so many times over Read the exchanges carefully matey as clearly you are not - you just take opportunities wherever you can to peddle abuse and falsehoods
Welcome to alternative reality 2020 - "it is so because I say it is so"..."like a miracle"
Pardon me, but OP was the original "big bang" origin of offensive personal attacks when he failed miserably to muster any semblance of a deductive, fact-based narrative - and when "called out" for it he proceeded instead to throw tantrums, belittling and abusing the actual physics-educated, science-minded among us (e.g., we're all idiots without any capacity to understand his high intellectual perch, our hearing is deficient, our systems are the dregs, we are of "no use" to anyone, and other such drama) and behaving like an insufferably arrogant snob. As if his own inferiority complex isn't plain for any reasonably sentient being to see. And then onhwy61 actually has the temerity to pile on and invoke evolution in his defense?! Next level. For shame...
Oh well - back to my wire freezing and saturation project. 'Think I'll blow this month's salary on some cable risers just like they use in all the recording studios...
The cables make a difference naysayers have found an unusual ally in the "professional" reviewer as they together launch personal attacks against the OP. This is proof positive that evolution isn't always in a positive direction.
I suspect this thread won’t last too long. Rightfully so.
tatyana69, shape up, or I'll begin asking that you be shipped out. No one cares how wonderful you think your system is, nor that you think you have a right, like certain BLM protesters, to abuse others. Learn to make a persuasive argument, not foment anger. :(
I could say more, but historically these kinds of threads don't linger, and it would be a greater waste of my time.
Rod Elliott. A genuine nice guy. Most of the time, pretty informative, but I think he missed the boat in that article, written in 1999 and last updated in 2004.
In his defense, his perspective* will save audiophiles uncountable millions which is a better PoV than ill educated bloviators postulating unsupportable nonsense.
* It is 100% possible that a given selection of cables and electronics will exhibit ZERO difference. Another possibility is that his hearing is such that he cannot distinguish. IMO, many here fall into that category, but their ego suffers extreme confirmation bias.
Our responses are 100% relevant to your "question." Don's spout such pablum if you don't want the enlightened among us to speak up. and your self-awareness quotient continuously shows itself to be approximately...zero. "If you can't pound the facts, then pound the table and attack people." This is your MO - continuous belittling, attempts to discredit and insulting those "lesser" than you as you sit atop your self-proclaimed lofty perch. Clearly you are so far above us all. If you want to pay thousands for cable "jewelry", then just call it what it is. There is no science to undergird your auditory hallucinations...
and ...... more from that apology of an article .. who is that pathetic author anyway?
"Now, consider the situation with watches. Has any ultra-high-priced watchmaker ever claimed that the ’quality’ of the time told by their watch is superior to that from ’ordinary’ watches, or that the ’sense’ of the time has greater depth and more ’chi’? Maybe they just haven’t thought of that angle yet, but I expect that this is unlikely. The simple fact is that these pieces of jewellery are finely crafted and superbly executed timekeepers, but are usually no better or worse than ’lesser’ brands that do exactly the same job.
The situation with cables is no different - you may choose to pay outlandish prices to get something that looks amazing, and demonstrates to everyone how much money you have, but it will not make a magical difference to the sound, there will be few (if any) real differences in the electrical characteristics, and it will sound much the same as ’lesser’ cables, selling at perhaps 100th of the price."
My case rests The lunatics have taken over the asylum. WHY ARE YOU ON AUDIOGON IF YOU HAVE NO INTEREST IN YOUR OWN DEVELOPMENT? THE REASON IS CLEAR ... you are so inadequate that you want to control others to make up for your own significant shortcomings. You have no interest in the subject matter, but have great interest in thinking your own ignorance should have some influence in your small world. You know SO little, yet your self opinion knows no bounds. Just create another thread so circulate yourselves all together in your little worlds, just keep off generally in fact, you have NOTHING to offer ANYONE
well let's look at 3 bullet points in that article
Power leads will rarely (if ever) have any effect on the sound, provided they are of reasonable construction and are not inducing noise into (unshielded) interconnects. The only exceptions are those that use filters of some sort, which will reduce the noise floor in areas where interference is a problem. Some leads are of flimsy construction, and may reduce the available power for sustained loud passages, however, the difference will rarely exceed 1dB in most cases.
Speaker cables can (and sometimes do) sound different with a given amplifier and loudspeaker combination, even where they are well designed and of reasonable gauge. Excluded are very thin or extremely silly combinations - these will always do something to the sound, rarely good.
Interconnects might sound different, but only if they use odd construction techniques. Generally speaking, all properly (sensibly) designed and well made interconnects will sound the same - excluding noise pickup which is common with unshielded designs.
Now - those points are such baloney to beggar belief. It is with great concern that there is a number of people that believe such a totally nonsense set of words. They have not heard my system, nor any half decent one, and you take micky out of audiophiles who clearly know more than you. Yet again, a naysayer hijacks the question posed and it naturally degenerates into puerile diatribes. Keep off subjects raised, unless you have the faintest idea what the question is! As expected, all the silly comments come from naysayers - it comes with your ignorance
"Cables may get over saturated with sound". The only thing I can think off is that the current can be too high for the given AWG and the dielectric is getting overcharged and starts compressing. Is the cable getting warm? The cable dielectric can have an effect on the dynamic presentation/contrast you describe. Air/Cotton dielectrics sound more open and dynamic for example. Reduced microphonics can also be a starting point for investigation, or triboelectric noise. Siltech is known for high quality insulation.
Enhanced dynamic range of components leading to over saturating the cable sounds like a strange explanation from your dealer. I think you should forward your question to Siltech and Tara Labs for a real explanation
And just in case we have not taken ourselves seriously enough, and I quote: "Oh dear oh dear The inadequacies of various people on this forum make me despair of the future of this world."
@tatyana69 - You remind me of my daughter when she was a tweener. Argumentative, pretending you have all the answers, and arrogant enough to believe your opinions are facts.
Try to do it in freezing environment first. You will swim faster. Of course, it may take you some time to warm up to achieve optimal results. Remember, there are no short-cuts. Cryo followed by burning.
My speakers keep dropping their bluetooth connection - could that be a problem with the plastic housing? Also there seems to be a problem with the larger of the two cones on the left speaker - what's that called again? A woofer?
Let me clear it up for you: saturation of wire is optimized only after proper break-in following deep cryogenic freezing, but only when the wires' signal directional arrows are pointed properly so the crystal structure of the metal can help the little electrons know which way to go
Your response makes my point beautifully - bully and attack the legitimacy of the heretics and non-believers. We're so unsophisticated and inexperienced that we "continuously miss the point of anything." Fact: you know NOTHING about me, my system or my experience. res ipsa loquitur
How is it that you continuously miss the point of anything? Your system is substandard as it does not allow you to hear the absolute obvious that others can hear. It is quite clear you should not apply your so limited experiences to others who can hear the differences. And why do you get involved in a thread that has nothing to gain from your limited abilities. I asked a specific question from my own real experiences, and you want to say that I am lying as I cannot possibly hear the difference between two £20k + speaker cables, that you have never been anywhere near, let alone see or hear them. If you cannot contribute to a thread then don't do so.
tbakin63 Oh dear oh dear The inadequacies of various people on this forum make me despair of the future of this world. How does the world work with such absolute tosh being spouted. For your information, all people I know can tell the difference in cables, shame that you think I am deceiving myself. The answer actually is clear .. you have a 2 bit system that is so bad it cannot demonstrate anything to do with hi fi. In fact you have no idea what hi fi is. Just don’t tell people who do know that they do not, as really you have no idea
Let
me try and make this simple. It has NEVER been demonstrated
scientifically (referring to proper, peer reviewed, journaled SCIENCE)
that there is an audible difference between a $20K cable and a wire coat
hanger.
That's an interesting claim. Please direct us to a "proper, peer reviewed, journaled" study that shows there is no difference between a $20K cable and a coat hanger.
Let me try and make this simple. It has NEVER been demonstrated scientifically (referring to proper, peer reviewed, journaled SCIENCE) that there is an audible difference between a $20K cable and a wire coat hanger. So, yes, I'm at least saying that - and then some. In fact, if you are interested in SCIENCE, there is a lot of proper SCIENCE to the contrary of the assertion that cables make a difference. It galls me that people waste their time and money in this vein, but more so that they try to belittle and bully the sensible among us who don't sign on for their crap. Frankly, it's a big part of what's wrong with this world of "alternative facts" at large right now.
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