I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
My experience in general with cables, but more on ICs than PCs is, that the lower the dielectric of the insulation, the more “open” and “dynamic” it sounds. Could be the reason, why you “hear” more dynamic after replacing the cable with cotton sleeves. I think, the VH Audio silver cable in cotton sleeve is one of the most open and dynamic wire and can only be “topped” with bare wire in an oversized cotton sleeve, where the contact area is even more reduced.However, on PCs I think the conductor material is not that important. Using solid core, ideally not bigger than 18AWG ( and than multiple of them to get total required size) twisted in low dielectric insulation with minimum contact area and a good connection is key.
@tomic601 - A friend of mine made a 24 ft long Helix cable
He actually used a 24ft long piece of COAX - stripped the outer sleeve and the shielding. - wound transformer wire around the outside of the insulation for the helix coil - added RCA's - not sure if he used Harmony RCA's
He was very impressed with the resulting sound, but it took him and his wife to fabricate the cable.
Can anyone throw some light on this conundrum please - it's bugging me :-)
I decided to replace the Live conductor inside my power distribution box. - the neutral wires are the same 2 x 12 gauge Mil-Spec wire I use in the power cables - the wire being replaced was 12 gauge Duelund Tinned Copper.with PolyCast insulation - the wire replacing the Duelund is 4 x 18 gauge Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold with cotton sleeve insulation
The length of the wire is approximately 12" - I was very surprised to hear any improvement at all - but I observed an audible improvement in dynamic response.
The method of connection of the wire inside the distribution box was the same - only the actual wire changed.
Here are the different wires I use in the cables connecting the electrical pathway...
- Duelund Tinned copper - let's call it wire type "A"
- Solid copper VH Audio - lets call it wire type "B"
- Solid Silver VH Audio - let's call it wire type "C" - Solid Silver/;gold MUNDORF - let's call it wire type "D" - And the neutral throughout the entire system is 2 x 12 gauge Silver plated Mil-Spec and all cables have the Helix Geometry
The change occurred only in the electrical pathway of the Source components, which consists of... - an extension cable - 11 ft of wire type "A"
- a power cable to the distribution box- 5 ft of wire type "B"
- Distribution box - 1 ft of wire type "D" - previously 1 ft of wire type "A" - a power cable - 4 ft of wire type "C"
SO - originally I thought that Dynamic performance was related to the conductivity of of the various wires in the electrical pathway i.e. how fast the power propagates through the wire
If that was the case, then the "limiting factor" should be the wire used in the extension cord - wire type "A" However, replacing just a small piece of wire type "A in the distribution box with wire type "D" , i.e. a wire that has better conductivity properties, resulted in improved dynamic response, even though the wire in the electrical pathway preceding it is slower.
So my question is - why does that small piece of wire make any difference at all?
He has compared it to the Mil-Spec wire from eBay and he prefers the sound of the Jantzen wire. So much so, he is currently in the process of converting all of his Mil-spec helix to the Jantzen wire.
He believes the Chryo-treated mil-spec wire from Take Five Audio is of a higher quality than the non-Chryo'd Mil-spec available in Europe.
I use a dissected eupen GNLM for neutral and earth. They both have emc/ferrit powder around their tinned strands that acts as a rfi filter for the live wire. It really works. No stray voltages, no rfi, low induction. Pitch black background and oomph in spades.
@mawe Thank you very much, that is excellent advice. I will get wire from that french site you indicated. I just had an idea - how about using ferrites snugly fitting along the LIVE wires? They could serve dual purposes, removing RFI and keeping the distance to the neutral/ground helix wires.
@ Bruno, an alternative to the Milspec wire would be the Jantzen Audio 2x2,5sqmm or 3x 1,3sqmm copper silverplated PTFE wire, which you can order from audiophonics.fr. There you can order as well the Neotech solid core OCC 18AWG in PTFE. Much more cost effective than the VH Audio wire. I am a Long Time User of VH Audio wires, mainly the solid silver in cotton for interconnects. But shipping cost, Tax and VAT make them really expensive when landed at your place. This is the reason, why I swopped to the french site. Their prices are the most attractive in Europe. For a power cord I think the Neotech is as good as the VH Audio wire, specially in PCs as the solid PTFE insulation is more robust. I put the 3 runs 18AWG Neotech in a 6mmx0,6 Teflon tube (ordered from Conrad) and this into a 10mm PVC tube to keep a certain space to the outer neutral coil. The coiling obviously keeps best with solid core wires. Therefore you can use for the neutral as well some solid core wires. For ground wire I used standard yellow/Green 1,0 or 1,5sqmm solid core wire from the Home Depot market.
However, after re-reading, I realize I may have misinterpreted. The mixture of two winding directions is not described actually.
I was planning to use Chris Airlok wire for the LIVE conductor (three runs), and admittedly the Duelund wire for the neutral and ground. But I can see that this stranded wire may not be suited to maintain the helix winds. The thing is that shipping charges from Canada to Europe are prohibitive, especially compared to the cost of the Mil-Spec wire.
Now, I am not sure whether there is an European alternative to the Mil-Spec wire.
Bruno - just re-reading your post and was wondering which of the wires you mentioned do you intend to intend to use for the LIVE conductor, and which wire you intend to use for the neutral and ground wires?
Either the VH Audio wire or Duelund will be a good choice for the LIVE conductor..
For a 230v cable - if you are using the VH Audio wire for the LIVE I would recommend using a cotton sleeve over the LIVE conductor for added safety
I would NOT recommend either of these two wires for the neutral or ground conductors because they are not robust enough to maintain the helix coil effectively and the VH Audio wire will not withstand any prolonged handling activity.
Mil-spec is still my wire of choice for Neutral.
I would even use Mil-Spec for the ground because of it's superior ability to maintain the helix coil shape and it's tough Teflon insulation
Bruno - Winding the neutral and ground in opposite directions will complicate the build process and will make the cable much thicker.
But - Will it make an audible difference?
If you wound the ground around the Live wire and then would the Neutral wire(s) around the Ground/live wire assembly in opposite directions it would provide a greater gap between the Live wire and the Neutral wire. This should provide some benefit.
However, the power cables I have made are all 120v and not 230v, so the higher voltage may cause more interference., which means the additional space would be an advantage.
Could you please post a link to the site where you read this - I would be very interested in seeing related information before providing a definitive YES or NO answer
@ Bruno I also live in EU and still think you should use min 2x 18awg for the hot/life and 2x 16awg for the neutral + ground. I use this even for my low power LPS Shanti for my AlloUSBridge Signature. If you’re using a high power amp it could be beneficial to use 3x 18awg. I have ordered the SonarQuest Plugs directly from the original China Website and it was flawless regarding delivery, less than 10 days, no Importtax nor addition VAT and shipping cost included. So for 38€ I got IEC and Schuko plug with silverplating in clear housing. I prefer the clear housing, as you can see the better how the cable is fitted into the IEC clamping.
Thank you so much for all your work in this matter - I got inspired and decided to join the bandwagon. I will build power chord with Viborg plugs, Chris VenHaus Airlok copper 18ga wire and Duelund 600VA wire. Now, I live in Europe with 230V mains. So I conclude current is lower and I will be able to safe on diameter needed for the same power (half the Amps), right? Also, I have read that running neutral and ground in opposite helix turn might be beneficial. However, does this not make the assembly more difficult and the final cable will be less stable? I very much welcome your sensible comments. Best, Bruno
If you mean... - will the wire sound different when connected in one direction as opposed to being connected in the opposite direction? - then I would have to say that I have never attempted to maintain wire directionality in the signal or the helix, i.e. during the build process
But I did try connecting a pair of IC’s in the various L/R channel permutations and observed no difference.
NOTE: I do use different colors of heat shrink at each end of the cables so I can maintain a specific direction once the cables are burned in.
Perhaps the effects of wire directionality are far less apparent with the Helix Geometry, i.e. when compared to cables having more "convectional" geometries.
I cannot say this often enough - my sincere thanks go to everyone that has contributed in the development of these cables.
It is a most excellent exchange of ideas, approaches and observations between many individuals, across many countries, on a large variety of components and systems.
Without this cooperative effort we would not have such great DIY cables
@aniwolfe - thanks for the link - I’ll tuck that one away for future reference.
Parts Connexion is one of those places that you have to at least visit, to see what deals they are currently promoting.
For Canadians like me, it’s often cheaper elsewhere because their shipping charges and taxes applied sometimes negate the effectiveness of the the deal
But delivery is faster.
The prices in the eBay links above were free delivery and taxes included - but it can take up to 4 weeks to deliver. The vendor Enjoyhifi is much faster than other vendors I have tried.
I’ve never really been picky with plugs - performance is all that matters - so I buy the basic Sonarquest silver plated copper plugs with the plastic housing.
But after seeing @wig ’s very nice carbon fiber plugs on the stunning black/white power cable he built - I decided to give them a try.
So if you buy both Silver plated Sonarquest + the Carbon fiber plugs and swap the barrels over - you save $56.50 US per pair over the $130 version
But would the carbon fiber barrels fit the basic Sonarquest plugs ??? - the answer is YES ! - they do indeed
Granted - you now have some spare plugs on your hands - but if you are like me, I always have some cables that can use them - e.g. like a second or third audio system :-)
How good is the vendor Enjoyhifi? - the plugs arrived in Canada after only 9 days - normally takes 3-4 weeks from other vendors in China
So why do I fuss with better looking plugs after all this while? - I have some Helix cables that I use for my guitar amps that require a more robust clamping system and the barrel on the carbon fiber plugs are about 1/2" longer, so they do a better job of clamping the cable further back.
But they do look sweet on my Audio System Helix power cables as well :-)
What I really like about these plugs is the section that houses the cable clamp unscrews, so you can easily remove that additional part of the clamp assembly provided for thinner power cables - PLUS - it also makes it really easy to install.
@twoleftears - the Mil Spec wire used for the neutral is stranded and the strands will cross the signal wire at a less acute angle in one direction, as opposed to the opposite direction.
So which way is clockwise vs. counter clockwise depends on your "perspective"
If you are looking down the winding of a finished cable from the end, then the coil rotates in a CLOCKWISE direction as it winds away from you.
vs. If you are looking at how the wire is wound around the signal wire then it is wound in a COUNTER CLOCKWISE direction
If you are using a double stranded solid signal conductor then twist the wires in a clockwise direction
if you used a single solid wire for both signal and neutral, then likely the direction of the coil would not matter
I have been listening to my very short 17" IC's using 18g VH copper, single run on both legs, for the last day. Furutech 111g plugs with ProGold, set screw termination.
Was skeptical at first but these really are nice. Compared to the Supra EFF-1 cables I have, these seem more dynamic, detailed, less confused sound. Bass has more authority. A very balanced and natural sound. Thanks for sharing this info guys. A great value, fun project.
One concern. These cables can vibrate like a spring. That can't be good. Makes me wonder if some cotton tubing on the signal conductor might dampen this tendency.
When building ICs with these KLE Innovation plugs consider the following aids and techniques.
- use WBT 4% silver solder. I like the leaded one better. Just wash your hands after and use a fan/filter to keep the smoke away from your nostrils.
- use an old piece of gear or some $10 Goodwill CD player etc... to plug your KLEI male connector into. This makes it so much easier to solder. The jack is now hands free secured and won’t budge!
- make sure you have a good soldering iron. Preferably one that offers variable heat settings. Set it to 800 - 850 degrees. Yes this hot. You want to get in and out fast.....2 seconds.
- tin the bare VH Audio wire. I find it not necessary to tin the forked tab.
The 18 gauge VH Audio wire should rest inside the fork portion of the KLEI tab with a little bit of the stripped wire protruding past (over) the forked tab. I like to place a little weight onto the wire a few inches down from the from the solder point. This holds the stripped wire down with pressure against the forked tab. I rest a set of pliers over the wire to accomplish this.
Time to solder. Get in and out in 2 seconds or so with your very hot soldering iron. Use very little solder. Just enough to assure a strong connection. You don’t want to see blobs or areas where the solder is thick.
But the other thing to consider is the type solder you use... - I have recommended WBT 4% silver solder in the past - but I now prefer eutectic solders because they seem to flow more easily, become solid very quickly and make a very robust joint using less solder - CARDAS makes a eutectic solder, but I have not tried it - yet
The Furutech 111 plug does look very nice and easy to install for people that do not like soldering or for those who believe clamping is a better method of fastening
But for me - the Absolute Harmony RCA is the only plug on my cables
Solder is not the primary conductor if you do this right. The bottom line is the KLEIs sound better. Better sounding connector when soldered properly with very little solder and bare wire to tab direct connection. I have some tips.
I certainly wouldn't challenge you guys--you have far more experience than I ever will. I have no doubt those little tabs heat up quickly and afford a good solder joint. My OCD kicks in however when solder is the primary conductor in this type of design. The Furutech 111 plug uses low mass high quality gold plated pure copper for both signal and return. The set screw is on the both legs as well, so no soldering the return to a high mass barrel. It really is a nice design-check it out.
For some, those tabs look very fragile, but they actually allow for a much better joint than trying to solder a wire to a hefty neutral barrel like those on the Furutech RCA’s and they are so much easier connect a wire to than trying to get a wire down the center of the signal pin if re-attaching a previously used RCA
But they do allow you to apply the heat under the tab while holding the wire on top of the tab for a perfect solder joint. You can see the solder melt right into the wire & tab
You do need to secure that little plug though - I insert mine into a old RCA socket that is held in a vice - that leaves both hands free
But that’s just my opinion after having reused my Harmony RCA’s many times.
As for sound quality - I’m with @grannyring - they are the best sounding RCA plug I have ever used.
That tab is a great connector and design having made at least 150 sets of ICs with those plugs. The Furutech will look better and feel higher quality, however they will not sound as good. I have done the listening tests. Contact me and I will give you some tips. A joy to work with!
Going to give this a go. Looking at the KLE plugs, that little spade connector tab looks like the absolute worst design I have seen. How do you get a secure mechanical connection with that! You are relying on a bridge of solder as a connector. Ughhhh. I will use the Furutech 111g, Progold the VH copper, and secure directly with a set screw. Will keep you posted.
Yeah I think I’m just gonna take some 600 grit and run it up and down the shaft...yup. It wasn’t that big of a problem, but considering I used solid 12 gauge thhn for the ground, and wound it nice and tight, it was a a tad difficult to slide off. Easily fixed. But I may grab a fiberglass one regardless. the wood one I have is poplar. It’s soft and seemed like it wanted to snap.
@whacky I used a wood rod on a drill and no issues. I put all 3 12 gauge wires on the rod at the same time and coiled it up that way. I used duct tape to hold the 3 wires in place. So much easier and so much time saved. The coil looked much cleaner.
made my first helical power cord this evening. Following the most updated recs.
I ran into just a few hiccups although the process went pretty smooth. Couple little things which I knew might me an issue but I was too impatient to start. For example, I used a wooden 5/16 rod to do the winding on my drill. Worked great until I tried to get the final assemble to slide off. Too much friction from the wood. Gotta find a proper fiberglass rod for the next one. And next time I may braid the 4 signal cables in a more organized fashion as opposed to my completely random and patternless braid. I also had to sort out some interference I was getting initially. The helical PC picked up a lot of interference that a Signal Cable Co power cord was causing. Removed that from the system and bam. Problem solved.
Quiet. Clear. Wow. I will say that I am extremely impressed by the sound that resulted.
It’s currently feeding my PL Integrated tube amp and it opened things up very nicely for me. The sound definitely felt bigger. Wider. More relevant. A touch more clarity. A touch more forward. But all in all, a very noticeable improvement.
In fact, I just got yelled at by the significant other for listening to to a random string album of Lana Del Ray covers too loud at 1:30 am haha. It seems my next room improvement is gonna have to be soundproof windows . I have wire on order to create my first double double IC and a set of speaker cables.
Granted - Silver is the best conductor - theoretically... - It could be related to how the outlet clamps onto the pins - if the pins on one plug were flatter than the pins on the other plug it would make a different mechanical connection that could affect dynamics - it could be how the wires are clamped into the plug.
Remember there are a few "mechanical interfaces" at play which can affect performance
I'll stick with the Silver plated, but I do not dispute Aniwolfe's observations under his conditions and setup.
I’m surprised, that the Platinum should be more Dynamic and detailed compared to the Silver plated version. Always thought, Platinium plating is less conductive compared to Silver (best) and Gold (2nd best).
I just wanted to add my sincere thank you to those prominent members of this thread who have put a lot of time, money, and energy into coming to some of these conclusions.
While I agree, no single solution will work for everyone's personal taste/system/etc, I am very eager to get the time to wind up some of these cables and get them cooking.
I have tried both Silver and Gold Sonarquest and found the Silver more detailed and dynamic in my system, which are traits I like to hear. But I agree that the gold is slightly warmer than the silver
I have not tried the Rhodium, so I have no comment on their sound
But, there is no wrong choice here because they are all very good, it's just the choice that suits individual ears :-)
I have all 3...Gold, Silver and Rhodium Sonar Quest. I prefer the Rhodium the most in my system. The right amount of detail and more dynamic sound. The Gold will give you a slightly warmer sound and detail will still be present, just not quite as much.
From VH website "Our unique AirLok™ insulation is a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer that achieves a dielectric constant of less than 1.45! By comparison, the dielectric constant of solid fluoropolymers, such as DuPont™ PTFE, FEP, and PFA (referred to as Teflon®, when licensed from DuPont) is 2.1. A perfect vacuum is 1.0?
Did anybody compare the Gold vs Silver plated version of the SonarQuest power plugs? And if so, what had been the sonic differences?
I have only the Silver version and it is a very detailed/clear sounding plug. I wonder if the Gold version may be a tad smoother without loosing too much of the clarity.
I will be updating my web site in a couple of weeks with photos and construction notes on three Helix IC options, which will be.. - Grannyring.s "Double Double" design - a Two on One adaption - i.e. Two Signal wires with a Single Neutral wire - while keeping the original "Regular" one signal with one neutral design
Currently I have one "Double Double" IC using Mundorf Solid silver for the Signal on my streamer and and an IC with a single coil but with a double VH Audio Solid Copper signal wire on my phono Stage, both of which I an enjoying immensely.
Why didn’t I go "Double Double" for all components? - well as we all seem to be discovering - different wires and approaches can be a better match for different components.
But going forward - I do find the VH Audio copper wire to be very compelling, since it competes nicely with the overall performance of the Mundorf Solid Silver + Gold wire - BUT - for 1/5th the cost.- and you gotta love that :-)
VH Audio Solid copper with AirLok is definitely my new "Wire Du Jour" :-)
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