Thanks Steve. I suspect with "unicrystal" wire, directionality becomes less of an issue.
Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling
I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling” of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund, Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-diy-cables.html
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/difference-in-sound-between-copper-and-silver-digital-cables
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/adding-shielding-to-existing-cables
Enjoy,
Wig
920 responses Add your response
@corelli - WRT Is this wire non-directional?If you mean... - will the wire sound different when connected in one direction as opposed to being connected in the opposite direction? - then I would have to say that I have never attempted to maintain wire directionality in the signal or the helix, i.e. during the build process But I did try connecting a pair of IC’s in the various L/R channel permutations and observed no difference. NOTE: I do use different colors of heat shrink at each end of the cables so I can maintain a specific direction once the cables are burned in. Perhaps the effects of wire directionality are far less apparent with the Helix Geometry, i.e. when compared to cables having more "convectional" geometries. Regards - Steve |
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@rx8man - and let’s not forget @grannyring - who brought us the Schroeder "Double Shotgun" version :-) If you haven’t tried (what I refer to as) the Double-Double Interconnect, see my Web Site http://www.image99.net/blog/files/4127b5fe2694586e383104364360373b-74.html I cannot say this often enough - my sincere thanks go to everyone that has contributed in the development of these cables. It is a most excellent exchange of ideas, approaches and observations between many individuals, across many countries, on a large variety of components and systems. Without this cooperative effort we would not have such great DIY cables My Thanks - to everyone ! Regards - Steve |
@aniwolfe - thanks for the link - I’ll tuck that one away for future reference. Parts Connexion is one of those places that you have to at least visit, to see what deals they are currently promoting. For Canadians like me, it’s often cheaper elsewhere because their shipping charges and taxes applied sometimes negate the effectiveness of the the deal But delivery is faster. The prices in the eBay links above were free delivery and taxes included - but it can take up to 4 weeks to deliver. The vendor Enjoyhifi is much faster than other vendors I have tried. Cheers - Steve |
A quick update on mains plugs... I’ve never really been picky with plugs - performance is all that matters - so I buy the basic Sonarquest silver plated copper plugs with the plastic housing. But after seeing @wig ’s very nice carbon fiber plugs on the stunning black/white power cable he built - I decided to give them a try. OUCH !!! - the Sonarquest Silver Plated Carbon Fibre plugs on Ebay are $130US a pair (you might find them for $120/pair) https://www.ebay.ca/itm/GK-Grade-SONARQUEST-Carbon-Fiber-Silver-Plated-Audio-Grade-US-power-plug-IEC... So I looked around for a more "frugal" solution... I found this set for $40US/pair - but they are NOT silver plated copper https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Carbon-Fiber-Rhodium-Plated-US-Power-Plug-Power-Connector-IEC-Plug/202679851071?hash=item2f30a9183f:g:jCoAAOSw8oFX0Qz1 BUT - the regular Sonarquest silver plated plugs are only $33.50/Pair https://www.ebay.ca/itm/SONAR-QUEST-CRYO-Ag-Audio-Grade-Silver-plated-IEC-plug-US-main-plug-sonarquest/181355696313?hash=item2a39a450b9:g:J~oAAOxyhXRTKcHi So if you buy both Silver plated Sonarquest + the Carbon fiber plugs and swap the barrels over - you save $56.50 US per pair over the $130 version But would the carbon fiber barrels fit the basic Sonarquest plugs ??? - the answer is YES ! - they do indeed Granted - you now have some spare plugs on your hands - but if you are like me, I always have some cables that can use them - e.g. like a second or third audio system :-) How good is the vendor Enjoyhifi? - the plugs arrived in Canada after only 9 days - normally takes 3-4 weeks from other vendors in China So why do I fuss with better looking plugs after all this while? - I have some Helix cables that I use for my guitar amps that require a more robust clamping system and the barrel on the carbon fiber plugs are about 1/2" longer, so they do a better job of clamping the cable further back. But they do look sweet on my Audio System Helix power cables as well :-) What I really like about these plugs is the section that houses the cable clamp unscrews, so you can easily remove that additional part of the clamp assembly provided for thinner power cables - PLUS - it also makes it really easy to install. I also tried this plug and it also works with the Sonaquest plug, but it’s not quite as fancy looking :-). - BTW: I cannot vouch for the Krell Authenticity https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Audio-Grade-Rhodium-plated-US-Power-Plug-Male-Female-Connector-hifi/202679851105?hash=item2f30a91861:g:b60AAOSwJRxbPHsZ Here’s hoping someone can take advantage of these savings Regards - Steve |
@twoleftears - the Mil Spec wire used for the neutral is stranded and the strands will cross the signal wire at a less acute angle in one direction, as opposed to the opposite direction. So which way is clockwise vs. counter clockwise depends on your "perspective" If you are looking down the winding of a finished cable from the end, then the coil rotates in a CLOCKWISE direction as it winds away from you. vs. If you are looking at how the wire is wound around the signal wire then it is wound in a COUNTER CLOCKWISE direction If you are using a double stranded solid signal conductor then twist the wires in a clockwise direction if you used a single solid wire for both signal and neutral, then likely the direction of the coil would not matter Here’s a link to some close-up pics - I use the term Counter Clockwise on this page for the correct direction http://www.image99.net/blog/files/b4d5249616a56bdabfd28b5580db6cec-79.html Regards - Steve |
Thanks for the above pointers gentleman. I have been listening to my very short 17" IC's using 18g VH copper, single run on both legs, for the last day. Furutech 111g plugs with ProGold, set screw termination. Was skeptical at first but these really are nice. Compared to the Supra EFF-1 cables I have, these seem more dynamic, detailed, less confused sound. Bass has more authority. A very balanced and natural sound. Thanks for sharing this info guys. A great value, fun project. One concern. These cables can vibrate like a spring. That can't be good. Makes me wonder if some cotton tubing on the signal conductor might dampen this tendency. |
When building ICs with these KLE Innovation plugs consider the following aids and techniques. - use WBT 4% silver solder. I like the leaded one better. Just wash your hands after and use a fan/filter to keep the smoke away from your nostrils. - use an old piece of gear or some $10 Goodwill CD player etc... to plug your KLEI male connector into. This makes it so much easier to solder. The jack is now hands free secured and won’t budge! - make sure you have a good soldering iron. Preferably one that offers variable heat settings. Set it to 800 - 850 degrees. Yes this hot. You want to get in and out fast.....2 seconds. - tin the bare VH Audio wire. I find it not necessary to tin the forked tab. The 18 gauge VH Audio wire should rest inside the fork portion of the KLEI tab with a little bit of the stripped wire protruding past (over) the forked tab. I like to place a little weight onto the wire a few inches down from the from the solder point. This holds the stripped wire down with pressure against the forked tab. I rest a set of pliers over the wire to accomplish this. Time to solder. Get in and out in 2 seconds or so with your very hot soldering iron. Use very little solder. Just enough to assure a strong connection. You don’t want to see blobs or areas where the solder is thick. |
I’m with @grannyring But the other thing to consider is the type solder you use... - I have recommended WBT 4% silver solder in the past - but I now prefer eutectic solders because they seem to flow more easily, become solid very quickly and make a very robust joint using less solder - CARDAS makes a eutectic solder, but I have not tried it - yet The Furutech 111 plug does look very nice and easy to install for people that do not like soldering or for those who believe clamping is a better method of fastening But for me - the Absolute Harmony RCA is the only plug on my cables Regards - Steve |
I certainly wouldn't challenge you guys--you have far more experience than I ever will. I have no doubt those little tabs heat up quickly and afford a good solder joint. My OCD kicks in however when solder is the primary conductor in this type of design. The Furutech 111 plug uses low mass high quality gold plated pure copper for both signal and return. The set screw is on the both legs as well, so no soldering the return to a high mass barrel. It really is a nice design-check it out. |
For some, those tabs look very fragile, but they actually allow for a much better joint than trying to solder a wire to a hefty neutral barrel like those on the Furutech RCA’s and they are so much easier connect a wire to than trying to get a wire down the center of the signal pin if re-attaching a previously used RCA But they do allow you to apply the heat under the tab while holding the wire on top of the tab for a perfect solder joint. You can see the solder melt right into the wire & tab You do need to secure that little plug though - I insert mine into a old RCA socket that is held in a vice - that leaves both hands free But that’s just my opinion after having reused my Harmony RCA’s many times. As for sound quality - I’m with @grannyring - they are the best sounding RCA plug I have ever used. Regards - Steve |
That tab is a great connector and design having made at least 150 sets of ICs with those plugs. The Furutech will look better and feel higher quality, however they will not sound as good. I have done the listening tests. Contact me and I will give you some tips. A joy to work with! These plugs do not editorialize the sound. |
Going to give this a go. Looking at the KLE plugs, that little spade connector tab looks like the absolute worst design I have seen. How do you get a secure mechanical connection with that! You are relying on a bridge of solder as a connector. Ughhhh. I will use the Furutech 111g, Progold the VH copper, and secure directly with a set screw. Will keep you posted. |
Yeah I think I’m just gonna take some 600 grit and run it up and down the shaft...yup. It wasn’t that big of a problem, but considering I used solid 12 gauge thhn for the ground, and wound it nice and tight, it was a a tad difficult to slide off. Easily fixed. But I may grab a fiberglass one regardless. the wood one I have is poplar. It’s soft and seemed like it wanted to snap. For the first trial, it went really well. |
Wanted to add to this made my first helical power cord this evening. Following the most updated recs. I ran into just a few hiccups although the process went pretty smooth. Couple little things which I knew might me an issue but I was too impatient to start. For example, I used a wooden 5/16 rod to do the winding on my drill. Worked great until I tried to get the final assemble to slide off. Too much friction from the wood. Gotta find a proper fiberglass rod for the next one. And next time I may braid the 4 signal cables in a more organized fashion as opposed to my completely random and patternless braid. I also had to sort out some interference I was getting initially. The helical PC picked up a lot of interference that a Signal Cable Co power cord was causing. Removed that from the system and bam. Problem solved. Quiet. Clear. Wow. I will say that I am extremely impressed by the sound that resulted. It’s currently feeding my PL Integrated tube amp and it opened things up very nicely for me. The sound definitely felt bigger. Wider. More relevant. A touch more clarity. A touch more forward. But all in all, a very noticeable improvement. In fact, I just got yelled at by the significant other for listening to to a random string album of Lana Del Ray covers too loud at 1:30 am haha. It seems my next room improvement is gonna have to be soundproof windows . I have wire on order to create my first double double IC and a set of speaker cables. Great stuff. |
Granted - Silver is the best conductor - theoretically... - It could be related to how the outlet clamps onto the pins - if the pins on one plug were flatter than the pins on the other plug it would make a different mechanical connection that could affect dynamics - it could be how the wires are clamped into the plug. Remember there are a few "mechanical interfaces" at play which can affect performance I'll stick with the Silver plated, but I do not dispute Aniwolfe's observations under his conditions and setup. Regards |
I just wanted to add my sincere thank you to those prominent members of this thread who have put a lot of time, money, and energy into coming to some of these conclusions. While I agree, no single solution will work for everyone's personal taste/system/etc, I am very eager to get the time to wind up some of these cables and get them cooking. Strong work fellas |
I have tried both Silver and Gold Sonarquest and found the Silver more detailed and dynamic in my system, which are traits I like to hear. But I agree that the gold is slightly warmer than the silver I have not tried the Rhodium, so I have no comment on their sound But, there is no wrong choice here because they are all very good, it's just the choice that suits individual ears :-) Regards - Steve |
@celo From VH website "Our unique AirLok™ insulation is a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer that achieves a dielectric constant of less than 1.45! By comparison, the dielectric constant of solid fluoropolymers, such as DuPont™ PTFE, FEP, and PFA (referred to as Teflon®, when licensed from DuPont) is 2.1. A perfect vacuum is 1.0? |
Obviously there is nothing wrong with using this cable but from a technical standpoint, what does Airlok do better than PVC? https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-70440.html |
Did anybody compare the Gold vs Silver plated version of the SonarQuest power plugs? And if so, what had been the sonic differences? I have only the Silver version and it is a very detailed/clear sounding plug. I wonder if the Gold version may be a tad smoother without loosing too much of the clarity. |
OK, I have just completed the web site updates with the Double Barrel "adaptions" + pictures. http://image99.net/blog/ Again- special Thanks to @grannyring , for the Double Barrel (Schroeder method) adaption. It is very much appreciated. And many thanks to @wig , for starting this thread Enjoy - Steve |
@demetris - @grannyring has a picture on his system page at the bottom of the photos listed - see...... https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8787 I will be updating my web site in a couple of weeks with photos and construction notes on three Helix IC options, which will be.. - Grannyring.s "Double Double" design - a Two on One adaption - i.e. Two Signal wires with a Single Neutral wire - while keeping the original "Regular" one signal with one neutral design Currently I have one "Double Double" IC using Mundorf Solid silver for the Signal on my streamer and and an IC with a single coil but with a double VH Audio Solid Copper signal wire on my phono Stage, both of which I an enjoying immensely. Why didn’t I go "Double Double" for all components? - well as we all seem to be discovering - different wires and approaches can be a better match for different components. But going forward - I do find the VH Audio copper wire to be very compelling, since it competes nicely with the overall performance of the Mundorf Solid Silver + Gold wire - BUT - for 1/5th the cost.- and you gotta love that :-) VH Audio Solid copper with AirLok is definitely my new "Wire Du Jour" :-) Regards - Steve |
Not disagreeing with Grannyring, because cables, rooms and components have to agree with each other. We all might get different results, so absolutely go one at a time. But in my system, one of the virtues of the Helix DIY was how relaxed and natural the high frequencies are. The ability to be so revealing and not bright was a first. Bad recordings are even more listenable. So, if your looking for warmth coloration the DIY Helix is not the best choice. They are transparent and neutral all day long. Not too long ago I had the pricey ($6500) Stealth Indra, Audience SX, HFC CT2 and Schroeder Duelund IC in for a showdown. To my surprise the Duelunds high frequencies were harsher in comparison to all the others and more forward. That might not be the popular results for some, but I know what I was hearing. The smoothest was the HFC CT2 and overall best sounding. Then came along the MIGHTY Helix DIY. Never in a millions years did I think these cables were going to do what they do. Just unbelievable. I can’t thank Steve and Wig enough. |
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The Helix cables are not all bright or overly forward. They are open and and let you hear deeply into the recording. They reveal more than the Duelund in a good and realistic way. I am confident you would love the ICs added to your system. By adding one at a time you will control your system’s end sound all along the way. As I added more Helix cables I liked what I heard. That did not change until I added all the Helix power cords. I found I had gone too far and added back in a Duelund cable or two. Perfect. Still 80% Helix! |
Bill, Thanks for your comments. Very helpful, as usual. As they system stands now, I think perhaps I should leave my Duelund tinned copper speaker cables in place. Also, I ordered a Swarm back a couple months ago. I'm guessing delivery is 2-3 weeks out. It might be good to wait until I get the Swarm dialed in and see where things are. As the room stands now, I've got plenty of detail, resolution, and air. If anything, I'd be looking to relax and warm things up just a tad. |
They are better as @aniwolfe says, but I would not be quite as bold about being “far better” as that is not so clear cut in all systems and ears. The Duelund is warmer and a tad more relaxed in many systems, including mine, which can be a good thing. While I like the increased resolution of the Helix I had to put back in a Duelund power cord to balance out my system’s sound to my liking. It was just a tad too direct and resolute. All Helix cords is great, but bringing back one Duelund cable into the mix really made it perfect for me. In general the Helix cables are more resolute, decrease noise letting in more inner detail and provide better realism. The Duelund cables are warmer, more mellow and darker sounding. This audio stuff is tricky in terms of saying something is universally better as people have differing sonic priorities, preferences and gear/rooms. I have mellowed my impulse to state absolutes the older and more experienced I get. For me, the Helix cables are very special and will be used in 80-90% of my system. Bill, I would start with one IC. See what that does, then make a second. Great to add one at a time and listen. I may add back one of my Duelund USB cables for more of that relaxed sound. I use two USB cables. Hard to really know where you will land until you listen for several weeks and the cables have 200 hours on them. |
@brownsfan I have made a few pairs of the DIY Helix IC’s with VH Airlok Copper and its far superior to a Double run of Duelund IC’s I once owned. Its like comparing a Honda to a Ferrari. The DIY Helix also surpassed a pair of $2800 HFC IC’s that I proclaimed as the best cable I had heard under $3k. The people that don’t try these are missing out big time. |
All this hype coming from people whose ears and brains I've grown to trust has me thinking. A few years ago I made my own speaker cables from Duelund tinned copper and they are the best wires I've ever had. So natural and so tonally correct! But it sounds like this VH Audio OCC is worth a try. My ICs are all XLR, and they are all silver. I wouldn't mind getting a little more copper into the system, so it might be worth a diy project making an IC to go from source to preamp. |
@mawe - Glad to hear you are also having success with the Helix design. Sounds like you have been busy :-) My goal in sharing the helix design via my web site was to have other DIYer's run with it and try their own adaptions, which is exactly what you have done. The information you have provided is valuable and I will certainly consider your findings when looking at a possible "next version" Although I have not tried 2 x 24 gauge Helix IC, this is what I have tried... - a few versions ago I used a single 24 gauge solid Silver wire in side a Teflon tube - I then tried 20 gauge with teflon insulation and it sounded better. - other DIYer's tried the 1mm (18 gauge) Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold wire in a cotton sleeve and it again improved the sound. So I then tried that - Following that I tried the 18 gauge VH Audio copper and it was as good as the Mundorf Solid Silver. - Then @grannyring tried the 2 x 18 gauge OCC copper from VH Audio and again the sound improved. So that has been the more recent "evolution" of the current Helix IC. It's been a real "team effort" that I could not possibly have accomplished alone. But at this time, I am very happy with the IC's current design listed in this thread and right now I just need some time to just sit back and listen :-) But I will keep your adaptions in mind for future versions :-) Perhaps someone would like to try @mawe's adaptions? - be sure post your findings here please. Again - many thanks for sharing your adaptions - it's great that people are trying different things with the Helix design. Regards - Steve |
Hello, I have followed this thread and have been using VH Audio wire since 15+ years, DIY ICs, CheLa speaker cables and some PCs. Recently I tried the Helix design for a PC, first with some cheap “normal” pvc insulated 2.5sqmm copper wire to test it. I finally did the PC for my AlloUSBridge Signature with the following parts: Hot= 2x 1.2mm dia. bare silver claded solid copper in a PTFE tube sleeve with inner dia of 2.0mm, light twisted and than sleeved into a PTFE tube with 6mm inner dia. Neutral= 2 runs of the same wire in the same PTFE sleeve coiled with a Ground wire as per Helix design recommendation. PC connectors are SonarQuest pure silver. This design gives as low as possible dielectric as the surface of the wire is barely touching the insulation and main insulation is air. This is a very cost effective approach with a little more work to slide the bare wire into the PTFE sleeves, but it sounds incredibly open, stress free and fast. My experiences with PTFE insulated OCC copper compared to the VH Audio Silver in cotton had always been, that the Neotech OCC wire sounded not as open as the cotton insulated wire. And the Airlock insulation is not far off either. However, for IC my findings always been, that max wire gauge should be 24AWG. If one wants, one can double it, so 2x 24 AWG for hot and ground. Recently testet a Single 22 AWG wire and was not impressed with the results. Bass and mid/highs had been good, but somehow soundstage became smaller. I wonder, why you all use 18AWG for the hot signal in ICs? Has anybody tried instead of 2x 18 AWG a smaller 2x 24 AWG Helix IC? Best.. |