Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@williewonka Sorry as you probably already wrote it, but the thread is getting a bit long ;-) Will the neutral corrode in the teflon tube, I guess it is not air tight? What dimension tube do you use?

I finally finished 1 helix speaker cable (using 4). I did’nt use wood pearls but rolled the signal wire in some thick cotton sheet, which was pretty easy to get into a cotton sleeve (some 2cm diameter). Cable is really soft, easy to handle and looks nice and uniform.

I am so happy with helix speaker cables. Considering upgrading to 2 x signal and 2 x neutral on the woofer cables only (up to 1600Hz). Using neotech SOCT-14 / Jantzen silver plated.

@svampebob - here’s a summary of MY CURRENT cables with some alternates choices for neutral wires

Interconnect Cables:

• signal wires: 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
• Neutral - 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation
• Alternate Neutral - you could double up on the neutral, but I opt for a single wire to save costs and it’s easier to build

Speaker Cables:

• signal wires: 2 x 16 or 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube - I have tried both and the 14 gauge did perform a just little better.
• But it might be speaker dependent - perhaps a smaller speaker would not require a 14 gauge wire
• Neutral - 1 x 10 gauge stranded mil spec with Teflon insulation
• Alternate Neurtal - you could use 1 x 12 or 2 x 12 gauge Neotech stranded UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation, but again I would opt for a single neutral to keep costs down
• I no longer use the wooden beads as spacers

High Power cables for power amp or power conditioner:

• signal wires: 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
• Neutral - 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
• Alternate Neutral - 2 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation

Source Component Power Cables

• LIVE wires: 2 x 18 or 2 x 16 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
• Neutral - 1 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
• Alternate Neutral - 2 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation

I opt NOT to use the dual neutral wires in any of my cables because I consider the amount of improvements observed were not worth the additional expense.

• But then, I have spent a lot of money during the development of these cables and so I prefer to save money where I can.
• HOWEVER: if you are after the absolute best performance then using a dual neutral will provide just that

RE: Teflon Tube: Teflon Tube (PTFE 10 Tubing .106"ID .130"OD Approx. 10 awg ) from Take Five Audio

WRT using solid wire inside a Teflon tube for the neutral...

• I have never tried bare wire inside Teflon tube for the NEUTRAL wire mainly because it could present challenges when winding the coil

WRT:

Will the neutral corrode in the teflon tube?

It will discolor a very small amount and then it will stop changing, but this is NOT enough to impact performance,

• i.e. provided you use a small piece of heat shrink at each end to "seal" the tube.
• even without the heat shrink at each end of the tube it would take many many years to reach a point that MIGHT impact sound quality

Hope that answers your questions

Regards - Steve

Thanks very much Steve! I wonder what you use for spacing now then? Maybe the tubes fill the sleve somewhat out

I'm not up on latest recipes, but I discovered Steve's original Helix page some time ago. I've auditioned  many cables over the years using lending library at Cable Company, $1k to $3-4k in all categories. The Helix has been my go to pc for some time, transparency second to none. My favored recipe is double runs of Take Five cryo'd 14awg for neutral, three runs of VH Audio Airlock 18awg for live, solid core copper 10 or 12awg ground. Only other recipe tried was Duelund DCA for live. I use cryo'd rhodium ac connectors that look exactly like the Partsconnexion Connex.

Need to try helix IC soon.

Do we know for sure, that the quality of the neutral matters as long as its resistance is lower than the signal wire? In my simple mind it would make sense that the most resistive wire (signal) is the one that colors/determines the sound, and if that one is excellent (up-occ), the sound will be the same.

@svampebob - I don't bother with spacers anymore because I figure the Teflon tubes plus the gentle twist I use in the two signal wires is as effective as the beads on the signal wire version.

I still use a 1/2" rod to wind the neutral wire on the speaker cables  so the signal wires "take turns" at being in the center of the Helix coil, and don't forget the helix crosses the signal wires at very close to 90 degrees, so induction would be minimal.

It also make fabrication so much easier :-)

@sns - glad to hear you like the Helix PC's - I think you'll like the IC's as well  :-)

Regards - Steve

I’ve been playing around with the helix design on my dc cables with some Input from granny and am very pleased with the results using leftover mundorf 18g silver gold and plain 16 g copper for the neutral rather then military spec silver plated copper cause that’s all I had laying around for now. 
My question is from those who have tried it what’s the sonic difference between mil spec silver plated and plain copper on neutral .

@tecknik - re:...

what’s the sonic difference between mil spec silver plated and plain copper on neutral

I’ve tried a couple of different wires for the neutral and the only wire that made a SIGNIFICANT improvement on the Saver plated Mil-Spec for the neutral is the UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation

• clarity improved resulting in more details
• imaging got larger
• dynamics got faster.
• bass became more "textured"

I am assuming by "Plain copper" you are referring to something like the quality of copper used in household wiring or even OFC copper?

• using plain copper  in place of the silver plated Mil-Spec would impact on those areas of improvement

I now use UP-OCC copper on

• interconnects - 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC with Teflon insulation (you can also try 2 x 16 gauge)
• power cables - 1 x 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation (you can try 2 x 12 gauge)

I still use 1 x 10 gauge Silver plated Mil-Spec on my speaker cables mainly because replacing them on my 10 ft cables would be more than I am willing to spend, since I would probably go with 2 x 12 gauge wires, since I have not found a vendor that sells 10 gauge UP-OCC

I did try using bare UP-OCC wire inside a Teflon tube for both the signal and the neutral and the resulting sound was not to my liking - it sounded far too clinical for may tastes, so I reverted to the Mil-Spec for the neutral

But - at this level of performance it all becomes a matter of

• personal preferences
• your system components
• the other cables used
• and of course BUDGET

Hope that helps - Steve

Thank you Steve I appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge and hope to try some mil spec silver plated cable from take five audio one day,

Steve, how long of a neutral would you have on a dc cable 3 to 1 , 4 to 1 ?

thanks you

@tecknik With a 16 gauge neutral I would probably go for 4:1 ratio

@svampebob - just realized I did not fully answer all of your questions...

Do we know for sure, that the quality of the neutral matters as long as its resistance is lower than the signal wire?

I have tried a few wires for the neutral and until I tried the UP-OCC copper, the Silver Plated stranded Mil-Spec always seemed to perform the best.

But when I tried the UP-OCC copper for the neutral, the improvements were quite noticeable. I was also able to use a single wire as opposed to the double strand of mil-spec previously used.

So I believe the UP-OCC wires is capable of significantly better electrical transmission when compared to a double strand of Silver Plated mil-spec having the same gauge.

Using a double UP-OCC for the neutral may improve things even further, especially on high end components.

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks Steve! Afraid I can't afford up-occ for the neutral at the moment, so damn many meters required...

I use an active crossover so I have separate helix cables for the tweeter and the woofer. Currently the signal wire for both is the Neotech 14. I am close to using all of these on the woofers (double runs of the 14), and buying some Neotech 18 for the tweeters. Would anyone have an opinion if this gauge is enough for above 1600Hz? I see the tweeter signal doesn't contain much energy, so I would think it is enough. Thanks.

And - just a cheap tweak that worked great for me, in case someone streams and hasn't optimized their ethernet chain (or don't believe in that stuff); get a cheap d-link dgs-105 (20$ or something) and put it between your router/AP and streamer, preferably close to the streamer I believe. Put a good 5v power supply on it, and be sure to ground it at the back. For me, this was what convinced me that a bit is definetly not just a bit. The helix speaker cables will reveal such changes mercilessly, but you probably already know  ;-) 

I've used as small as 1 x 16 gauge for the speaker cable live on cables that handle 20 - 20k and found it adequate.

But using a double signal wire is better - so I would think 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC for > 1600Hz should suffice.

Regards - Steve

TARNISH UPDATE !
I have been asked a few times about tarnishing of bare silver and copper wire used in cables

I have a piece of bare UP-OCC copper wire and a piece of bare Mundorf silver wire (+1% gold) that have been exposed to the room atmosphere for around 6 months now.

• The Mundorf silver wire now has quite a dark colour gray
• And the UP-OCC copper is a dull red colour

Compared to..

• The silver plating on my plugs/RCA's/Banana plugs is still a bright silver
• the copper wiring inside the teflon tubes of my cables  is still very bright

It would appear that placing the wire inside a Teflon tube and sealing the ends with heat shrink or hot glue does an excellent job of preventing tarnish build up.

I cannot explain why the silver plated plugs are not tarnishing at the same rate as the Mundorf Silver wire - perhaps the quality of the silver used?

Hope that helps

Regards - steve

Steve, is there a photo of how you terminate the solution with the tubes? Otherwise I guess it should be simple enough. I guess the length where the heat shrink directly touches the bare wire should be kept pretty short - 1cm? Do you think I can clean the bare copper with alcohol, just to get all grease and fingerprints off?

I received enough wire to double run all drivers today. I ordered the neotech with pvc (SOCP) to save a bit of money. I found it pretty difficult to get the sleeve off, but got better at it, 8-10cm at a time. However getting it into the tube was surprisingly easy, slid right in. Don't have many impressions yet, and only did 1 run (not double), but sound is still great (going from SOCT 14AWG -> 18AWG in tube for just 1 of the tweeters). Now I have 7 more runs to finish, expectations are still high :-)

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I also got 1m of Viablue EP-7s and 2 Telegartner 568B. EP-7s has a silver screen and solid core OFC wires, EP-7 has silver coated stranded OFC wires and copper screen - as I understand it. So the cable is nice solid core and quality seems excellent. I only attached screen at router end. It replaced some random cable from router to switch, and I have the Eno silver cable (plus Eno filter) from switch to streamer. Still what strikes me is better, tighter and punchier bass. I never heard bass that hits in the chest from my small 2-ways before, which was there today. Recommend trying it out.

@svampebob - Yes there is a photo on this link about half way down the page
http://www.image99.net/blog/files/9514cc3f6a7ba1d8336a56b1da69c6e6-84.html

As you can see I use spades on the power cable wires mainly for safety - they lock into the plugs very nicely and I have found they sound better than bare wire.

Regards

Thanks @williewonka, I hadn’t seen that page before. Excellent tips :-)

Dual run Helix air speaker cables is friggin awesome WOW! Everything is just more mature and "confident", better in all aspects. I just noticed the beginning of Cæcilie Nordby - Set them free (Dali CD2). I’ve always found the sound to break down at the beginning, like things became too dynamic or complex and the illusion just broke down, and wondered if it was supposed to sound like that (there is a hefty hammond organ that overlies everything else, when the rest of the band takes off). Well it was not, there is not even a hint of it now, just rock solid sound. Steve, you’re a pure cable champ! :-D Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

@svampebob - many thanks for the very positive feedback :-)

But really, I consider myself just the scribe, because there have been many people from around the world and also from this very forum, that are responsible for getting the cables to this level of performance.

The efforts from everyone have been amazing and the Helix cables would not be so effective without their contributions.

Continuing feedback also provides insights that provides information about how the cables work across a very broad range of components.

• e.g. we now know the cables do not perform their best with certain components that follow a symmetrical balanced design approach

This is a great example of what can be achieved via collaboration

• so KUDO's  to "The HELIX Team" !

I very much appreciate all of the feedback and the sharing of knowledge

Regards - Steve

Williewonka

After reading this thread and your website several times I discovered the Jantzen wire for neutral was also recommended which I was able to find here in Vietnam, I’m an expat retired and you just don’t go down to a radio shack or order online and puff your item shows up in a couple of days it doesn’t work that way in s.e Asia and yes I agree with your description between the zip cord and quality wire. 
Regarding wire being wound counter clockwise doesn’t wire that has been soldered need to be broken in again ( thought I read that somewhere and it certainly sounds that way when I’ve done that in the past ) and re winding the wire would require break in again of at least 50 hrs.

Currently both dc cables have 96 hrs after installation of the Jantzen 16 g wire and are sounding very good indeed.

Thank you

@tecknik - RE:

Regarding wire being wound counter clockwise doesn’t wire that has been soldered need to be broken in again ( thought I read that somewhere and it certainly sounds that way when I’ve done that in the past ) and re winding the wire would require break in again of at least 50 hrs.

It depends how critical your system and ears are :-)

• but generally, yes, additional burn in is beneficial
• even if I "reseat" (i.e. disconnect/reconnect) a broken-in cable, I have found that allowing 24 hours to settle before critical listening proved beneficial.

Also, I am very glad to hear the DC cables are providing sonic improvements

Regards - Steve

Hi everyone, 
Steve suggested not to use Helix Speakers cable for amplifiers employ a Symmetrical, Complimentary, or Balanced outputs. Some of the names are: 

• Accuphase E-303
• Anthem - Some Models
• Atma-Sphere - all models
• Audio Research - Some Models
• Ayre - all models
• Balanced Audio Technology
• BAT VK-255SE

• Boulder 500AE

• D’Agostino - Some Models
• Musical Fidelity - High End Models

• Pass Labs
• PS Audio BHK Signature 300

• Vitus
• Yamaha some models

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002a-helix-q-0026-a.html

Currently I am using Helix Speakers cable with my Single Ended Tube amp. However, I'm going need a Solid State amplifier with high output (300 watt/channel/ 8 ohm). 

My question is which brand and model that can be used with Helix Speakers Cables, could someone give me some names? 

Thank you.

@Guanghuy - here are some

• Bryston
  
• Simaudio Moon
• Gryphon
• Parasound
  
• Primare
• Acoustic Arts

The list is pretty long. The better way to approach this is to select an amp and then look for one of these keywords in the details

1. symmetrical
2. differential
3. balanced

Or you can simply post your selected amp here and I will get back to you with an answer,

Also look at the brands in my list that are identified as "Some models" because it tends to be only their very TOTL models that use the symmetrical differential approach 

If anyone else is using the Helix with their solid state amps please post the brand/model here

There is a growing trend in the use of Symmetrical balanced architecture, so this list maybe somewhat "fluid" 

Hope that helps

Regards - Steve

Hi Steve,
"If anyone else is using the Helix with their solid state amps please post the brand/model here"

Magnus Audio MA400

I'm using the RCA inputs. Speakers are B&W 802D's.

Sounds great!

What a wonderful read! Thank you all for the sharing.

 

I have two questions that I cannot find a clear answer from Steve's site or in this thread.

 

1. For USB cable, is there significant improvement from AWG24 to AWG18? The USB type A and B connectors are usually designed for AWG24 and thus the question.

 

2. For double-double XLR interconnect build, what is the exact structure? a) Four runs of wires in total, with the V+ and one ground wire forming a helix set, and the V- and the other ground wire forming another helix set. b) Six runs of wire in total, with two V+ gentally twisted, two V- gental twisted and slightly apart from V+, and finally two ground wires forming a helix structure surrounding singal wires? c) or other?

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Wayne

 

@wyan001 - I’ll leave any comments on the USB cable to @grannyring since it his design and I have NO experience with this particular cable

The XLR design on my web site is from another DIYer in Europe and is a single/single design.

I am not sure if anyone has tried a Double/Double version - anyone built one?

I am not sure if anyone has tried the "Air" aaption either - anyone built one?

If I were to try building an XLR cable I would definitely go for the "Air" Adapton but opt to build a Double/Single version as follows:

For each of the +ve and -ve conductors I would use

- 2 x 18 or 20 gauge bare wires with each wire in their own Teflon tube

- twist the two wires "gently" together (one tiwst every 3-4 inches)

- NOTE: do not bother twisting the the two assembled conductors together - simply insert inside the Helix Coil

- For the Helix Coil I would used a 1 x 16 gauge Solid Neotech Solid UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation

- but 2 x 16 gauge Solid Neotech Solid UP-OCC wire for the neutral Helix Coil could be used for a Double/Double design

- you could also try 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC wire with Airlok Insulation from VH Audoi for the Helix Coil - the Airlok insulaton has a slightly better Dielectric Constant value

PLEASE NOTE - for the Air adapton the internal diameter of the teflon tube used only needs to be approximately 20%-25% wider than the diameter of the wire, which assures adequate air gap between the wire and the sides of the tube

If you do NOT want to use the Air adaption simply use insulated wire for the +ve and -ve conductors - For this I would use 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper with Airlok insulatoin from VH Audio.

Hope that helps - Steve

Dear Steve,

 

Thank you very much for the quick response.

 

Another relevant question, if I have the choice to go with XLR or RCA interconnects within 2 meters (by buying or building custom-tailor (pre)amplifiers）, will Helix XLR be a better choice than RCA interconnect? You see, traditional wisdom usually says balance wire is better in trasmitting signal. However, Helix structure seems to greatly prevent noise pickup, as well as signal modulations between signal and return path, and therefore RCA interconnect might be very safe in this regard.

 

Thanks again.

 

Wayne

@wyan001 - XLR or Single ended - that is the question.

Perhaps this is where synergy comes into play?

I know that some prefer the XLR verson, while others prefer the Single ended version. But they all state that the improvements of one over the other are miniscule.

Pehaps it is all down to the components in the system - they could have better circitry specific to one or the other.

It could depend on the quality of the XLR plugs that improves on the single ended cables

But - if there is lots of EMI/RFI in your "environment" then the XLR would be the way to go

The only real way to find out is to build both and try them.

Ufortunately I do not have XLR inputs on my amp so I am unable to compare them them.

Regards - Steve

 

I support Steve's statements.

Anything longer than 2m use XLR.

Find out, if your components both sides are fully balanced internally and not using a chip to only convert input/output signal from single ended to balanced.

However, I never experienced a negative effect from balanced cables, they always are at least "on par" with single ended.

Beside the wires you use, it is important to use good plugs and a good soldering technology with good solder. The wire must make direct contact with the solder pocket in the plug and use minimum amount of solder. The solder should only keep the wire in place and not "be" the conductor.

Therefore I do not use "lead-free" solder with no high silver content, as the conventional solders without lead melt at lower temperatures and "flows" better.

I use either Wondersolder or Cardas. Much preferred over all the lead free 4% silver solder from Mundorf, Furutech, etc.

Just found these Atlas XLR plugs with silver plated OCC Cooper pins - I would have to believe that is about as good as XLR's get.

https://www.analogueseduction.net/xlr-plugs-attenuators-and-adaptors/atlas-all-cu-xlr-plugs.html 

These AECO LR's would be a good second choice...

http://Pair Of AECO XLR Connectors AMI-1060S Silver Plated Copper Contacts

They would probably match the performance of the Harmony RCA's 

An FYI: A friend built extremely long 24 foot Single ended Helix cables and reported exceptional results, So they seem to work very well even at extreme lengths

Regards - Steve

Dear Steve and mawe,

Thank you for the inputs.

AECO also have all-sivler RCA plugs with similar structure to ETI/KLEi. Not sure how good it is compared to KLEi Absolute harmony.

Sincerely - Wayne

 

@wyan001 - the Absolute Harmony plugs are extremely low mass with an extremely small contact area and use a pure copper and a heavier layer of silver coating than most other plugs and they also have a very different impedance to other plugs, so I would not assume other plugs will perofrm close to them just based on metalurgy

 

Regards - Steve

wyan001,

I agree with Steve as I've tried a number of different RCA's (all more expensive than the KLE's), & none of them have been as good in regard to SQ. That said, I have not tried the AECO.  

A friend who produces their own cables has a preferrence for for KLE Harmony Copper and Copper Wire.

When they produced a set of Cables for myself, I supplied the Silver AECO RCA and there was not any comments made on a significant perceived change to the SQ when they were hooked up to the producers system.

The Wire used was D.U.C.C and this had been perceived as having a added richness when compared to PC CCC.

The Silver RCA, might have impeded the full richness of the Cable being delivered ? 

I have 2 pairs of Helix speaker cables from which I am driving a pair of Maggie 1.6 in bi-wiring mode with excellent results.

Still using the Duelund cotton live wire, I was prepared to invest in making the UPOCC upgrade when I checked Steve’s latest mod on his website. The airgap mod is a logical one in this whole Helix development scheme of things.

I am prepared to jump from the Duelund live wire to the dual UPOCC airgap mod but before I have some questions about cable oxydation and handling.

- How does long term oxydation affect the sonics on a solid core wire? We all know how it can be on a multistrand cable but as for a solid wire, anyone has info on this?

-Would you advise to use latex/cotton gloves when manipulating to bare copper so any contaminants present on your fingers won’t end up on the bare wire?

-Would it be beneficial to use Deoxit on the solid wire before inserting it in the PTFE tube? Not sure how to technically achieve this but it could be as simple as spraying the product on a shop towel and run the wire through it while inserting it in the PTFE tube.

- Aside from sealing the PTFE with hot glue and a piece of shrinktubing, what else can be done to prevent wire oxydation?

Cheers,

Daniel

 

 

 

@norco74 - I didn't bother with any special handling or cleaning because I wanted to see how the bare copper fared without it.

There as an initial very slight loss of brightness of the copper, but in the last 6 months the colour has not changed at all - I assume because the oxygen inside the Tube has been used up.

I have a "sacrificial" piece of the same bare copper wire on the audio stand for comparison and that has tarnished much more

I also looked at the ground wire that connects to the electrical panel and it too is still fairly bright after 6 years, so I am pretty certain that sealing the tube will prevent further oxidation, because teflon does not let the oxygen in the air through to the copper.

If you do want to take extra care then Deoxit will do just fine.

Regards - Steve

 

Hi good folks,

I use double neotech SOCT-14 in tube in helix config for speaker wires for my bass/mid drivers. I use a great active crossover/eq so the frequency response does not matter too much as I can just adjust everything appropriately. When I installed the helix I had to dial in a low-shelf filter, meaning rising eq from around 200 - 1000Hz, in total 2,5db if I remember correctly. It sounded fantastic. After several 100 hours (I estimate 300) I have gradually turned it down and I am finding I have to remove it completely now. I can only see 1 reason, burn-in of the cables, everything else is burned in a long time ago. Have anyone else experienced this, that the mids takes a long time to open up and gain level? Naturally one could propose my ears are extremely bad, but it is not my impression. Unfortunately though I have a umik-1 I don’t have measurements, but i often run a sweep from bottom to top to confirm my impressions. When I adjust anything it is always based on many separate listening sessions.

@svampebob - I can’t say I have noticed an abnormally long break-in with speaker cables, particularly if they use the Air Adaption, but it is possible that the Bananas (or other connectors) are what is causing an overly long burn-in.

I mention this because the KLEI RCA’s sound best after 300-400 hours and I believe my initial pair of speaker cables took 200-300 hours, but that was back a couple of years now, so I am working from my less than perfect memory here.

I have reused all my plugs, so the break-in times of any more recent cables I have built can vary and cannot be considered a "benchmark".

What I find interesting about your post is that you have managed to isolate a specific range of frequencies that seem to be impacted by break-in.

Whereas, what I listen for is clarity and details in the venue acoustics, which in turn are responsible for changes in imaging, specifically artist focus and placement

Definitely something to ponder for the future.👍

Thanks for the update - Steve

 

Just an FYI - SINGLE ENDED or XLR ?

I just received these observations regarding XLR vs. Single Ended Interconnects...

I have compared XLR and RCA Helix Image interconnects. 

My XLR cable uses Neutrik NC3MXX connectors, each pair (one for +, one for -) of UP-OCC Neotech 18 AWG copper wire is twisted inside a teflon tube. RCA cable uses KLE Absolute Harmony connectors and two Neotech UP-OCC copper wires 18 AWG are inside their own teflon tubes.

 

Verdict: RCA version is better. I don’t know if it’s separated tubes for each wire or connectors but single-ended interconnect just sounds more musical for me. With balanced cable the sound is more straightforward and less refined.

But it’s not bad, of course.

I actually believe which cable type is ultimately superior is in fact due to the internal circuitry of the components being connected.

But as others have observed - there is very little difference between the two

I think both cable types perform to very similar levels and if you want the absolute best sound - then both cables should be built and tried in your own system before coming to any conclusions.

Regards - Steve

 

In all fairness, I would install better XLR connectors to conduct the test. Furutech make excellent XLR connectors at the same price point than KLE.

I would also give them the mandatory 150 hours soaked time before reviewing their performance. I have just upgrade my Helix speaker and 1 RCA cables and can testify that some funky things are happening between the 25-40 hours mark.

Cheers,

Norco74

I am looking for a good source for the Neotech cable to build these cables (PC, IC, and speaker).  The first question I have is do I want the stranded wire or the solid wire - as I think I see both in UP-OCC from Neotech?  And I see options from SonicCraft at the moment - any other good options?

Thanks!

@dbass - here’s what I am using at present

• Interconencts:
  • 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper for signal and
  • 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC copper neutral conductor
    • Some prefer 2 x 16 gauge for the neutral
• Speaker cables
  • 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC for the signal conductor
    • optionally 2 x 16 gauge for the signal conductor, but on my system they both sounded the same
    • However, this may NOT be the case for all AMP/Speaker combinations - speakers that required a higher powered amp may require the 2 x 14 gauge option
  • 1 x 10 guage stranded silver plated Mil-spec wires for the neutral
  • but you could use 1 x 12 gauge or 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC also
• Power cables
  • 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the heavy duty PC
  • 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the heavy duty PC
  • 2 x 18 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the Source PC
  • and oyu can use 2 x 14 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the Source PC
  • 1 x 12 gauge copper wire with Teflon insulation from Home Depot for the Ground wire

I buy my UP-OCC 6N solid bare wire from parts connexion because I only use the Air adaption for all my Helix cables, which requires bare wire inside a teflon tube - it saves me having to strip the Teflon insulation off of the Neotech and I think it provided a little better dynamic performance

https://www.partsconnexion.com/occ6n-copper-hook-up-wire.html

They also have Neotech wire and many other brands

But shop around - there are deals to be had - just make sure you are comparing apples to apples

The silver plated Mil-spec I order from Take Five Audio - again there are alternative from other vendors, so shop around

Deep Cryo Treated Cable And Wire - (takefiveaudio.com)

Others on this thread prefer the Duelund with Cotton/Oil insulation for the signal wire on Interconnects and Speaker cables, but I prefer the faster dynamics of the UP-OCC copper on my system

But realistically - all of the wires I mentioned above are excellent performers when used for Helix cables - it becomes a matter of "personal preference" and how well a particular component works with the selected wire(s).

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks Steve

                      The info helps a lot, as I am encouraging others to consider this design for their future cable projects, I am on boards as well, and have nearly all the materials to start.

The Power Amps are still to undergo conversion to Balanced, hence my slow to start performance.  

@williewonka 

Steve, just a comment on your proposal for power cords:

 

According safety regulations in Europe you need to have the ground wire minimum the same size as the “life” and “neutral “ conductors. 
Something you might have to mention in your spec sheets.

I’m not sure how this is in US, but would guess it is the same as well.

@williewonka 

Thank you very much for the clarification!  I will search out vendors for the materials.  My first goto is usually partsconnexion as long as they have the item in stock.

And again thank you so much for this cable receipe - I have made a set of rca interconnects 2 years ago and they are very nice.  I have built a new system in my great room and now am ready to replace all the cables with your helix design.  So I will finally get to hear it to it's full effect.

Best wishes.

@mawe - There appears to be some interesting articles on the web on this topic

• some say yes - all three have to be the same size
• some say the neutral can be bigger than the Live wire
  • but definitely NOT the other way around
• some say the ground wire can be larger or smaller than either Live or Neutral

So the Helix basically has

• the Live wire being smaller than the neutral wire
  • which appears to be acceptable
• The Ground wire is smaller than both the Live Wire and the neutral wire...i.e.
  • 12 gauge ground (for HD cables)
    • with an 11 gauge Live and a 9 gauge neutral
  • 14 gauge ground (for source cables)
    • with a 15 gauge Live and an 11 gauge neutral
• both of which appears to be acceptable

I do think this is where common sense has to be applied to the ground wire.

It’s purpose is to carry electrical current only under short circuit or other "conditions" that would be potentially dangerous.

However - that ground is not there to allow the component to continue functioning normally.

• in the event of a catastrophic failure somewhere within the component
  • it is designed to prevent the case/chassis of the component from becoming "LIVE"
  • Generally, if this occurs with a properly connected ground wire, then the current draw should exceed that of the fuse in the component,
    • which will break the live feed to the component
  • OR trip the breaker on the supply panel.
  • I believe the ground wire in either of the Helix cables should be sufficient to protect from electric shock and be of adequate gauge such that the breaker will trip (or the fuse will blow) long before the ground wire is compromised to the point of physical failure

The only other instance I am aware of where wire sizes of all three wires MUST BE IDENTICAL is

• In those countries, such as Norway, that has a balanced power distribution network where both live and neutral carry the same voltage, with a 180 phase difference
• or balanced power supply/conditioners popular with the audiophile community
• My web site warns of both of these situations and recommends NOT using the Helix cables.

Having said all of that - it you are concerned about the different gauges used

• then please make all three conductors the same gauge
• There may be a very slight impact to performance, but it would be minimal

Regards - Steve

How about simply using braided copper shield as ground wire for the power cable? I don't think it play a critic role other than protection. It meets the gauge requirement as well. Regards.

@williewonka In your post from Jan-15 '22, are you still putting each signal wire inside it’s own Teflon tube?

 

@bigslacker - That is correct - it provides the very best performance because

• The tube is quite rigid and does not collapse around the wire so the actual point of contact between the wire and the tube is extremely small
• the air gap inside the tube (i.e.around the wire). becomes the dielectric and results in a Dielectric Constant that is very close to Air - which has a Dk of 1.1.
• Lower Dk results in improved clarity and details, which in turn improves the image asccuracy

For best results the inside diameter of the tube should be 25% - 30% larger than the diameter of the bare wire to be most effective. Larger is OK, but does not yield any better results

Hope that helps