Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@lemonhaze I was quite taken with the PC Triple C wire.

Others I have introduced it to have given it a very good appraisal, and I have been demonstrated some of the designs been put in place for it.

As a Wand Wire and Internal Phonostage Hook Up Wire, it has left me very impressed.

I felt confident there was a place for it with the Helix Designs and am glad to have bought into this idea and the CCC Wire to produce these Cables.

Lemonhaze,

Sorry to take this long to post. I haven’t been back to this thread in a while.
I experimented with different size solid wire for the live wires of my interconnects. When I first made my wires with two solid 18g wires in separate tubes I was amazed at how much more impactful the music was, as opposed to my old interconnects. Everything sounded great, but as we always do, I wondered if it could be improved. The bass was robust but I thought if I could get a little more in the high frequency range the sound might be even better.

So, I built a set of wires with different gauges. I originally wanted an 18g matched with a 22g set, but I couldn’t find any OOC6N solid copper wire in that gauge, so I tried 24g instead. I was correct in thinking the higher frequencies would be improved. The highs were simply shimmering. Unfortunately, the 18g/24g setup somehow robbed my impact and my bass response. The shimmering highs were not anywhere near enough of an improvement to offset the losses in the lower ranges.

So, I made a pair with an 18g matched with a 20g. This proved to be a nice combination for me, so now, all of my interconnects have an 18g/20g combination for the live wires. I notice a little bit more in the higher frequencies but any diminishing of the bass and overall impact aren’t really noticeable.

I hope this can help.

Tim

Steve,

One question.  When I was almost finished with my solid copper interconnect project (I have 9 interconnect pairs), you tried OOC5N silver wire and pronounced the results as even better than the copper.  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 😀

So, I made one set and I also was very pleased with the results.  I have two, maybe four more locations where I could replace the copper interconnects with silver. Even though these would be 1 meter long, the cost could end up being prohibitive.

 
What do you think of making making interconnects with two OOC5N solid silver, bare wires for the live side, with  a OOC 6N PTFE solid copper wire for the neutral?

@toolbox149 - I only ever use Solid silver for the Signal wires, because as you said, it becomes very expensive if using solid silver for the Helix as well.

My apologies if I did not really make that point clear in previous posts

RE:

What do you think of making making interconnects with two OOC5N solid silver, bare wires for the live side, with a OOC 6N PTFE solid copper wire for the neutral?

Perfect! - also I DO NOT use the "AIR" adaption for the neutral - I just use OCC wire with Teflon insulaton.

I did try using the air adaption, but it made no difference to sound quality

Regards - Steve

Thanks Steve,

I gotta say, of all the things/tweaks I have ever tried, these cables, run shotgun style with another cable, have surpassed everything else I’ve done; including upgrades to some of my components.  I didn’t think my setup had enough quality to sound this good, but your cables elevated my system from “very, very good” to “ holy crap”.

The overall improvement in SQ was easily more than I would ever hope for when upgrading a component.

Thanks

Tim

@williewonka, Some kit arrived earlier than expected, for a change, so I made up an IC using 2 x 24AWG solid AG in separate ptfe tubes with SOCT-18 for a 3.5:1 neutral with KLE Absolutes.

My previous build used the twin 19AWG CCC that pindac introduced. I now have about 105 hrs play time and they sound really very good. A huge upgrade which left my wife and me with big smiles. 

I removed the CCC pair and replaced them with the 'recipe' above. Straight from my grubby hands and into the system so no run time at all. We heard a cleanly detailed, open sounding, leading edge/transient monster. I heard percussion coming from places not aware of before. It was providing more important information than the CCC.

We both felt that we heard more upper register detail with the overall gestalt a little on the lighter side, which did not surprise me. After some time I left the 24AWG Ag in place between the Oppo and line-stage and then connected the CCC's between the line-stage and amp. Hellooo, head and foot-stomps.

I understand that the pair of AG IC's will change with more play time but the sound right now has improved to the point where before, one of us would dive for the volume control with screwed up face because of screechy female vocals. Not so much now. Some tracks, previously unlistenable became tolerable. Large orchestral works, normally congested and brash on my system were now better rendered and instead of skipping allowed us to hear the musical intent, and if still not pristine was at least listenable.

Prior to these helix delights I could listen only to about 20% of my files, now I think it's closer to 50%. This alone to me is worth the cost of entry 😎

Next build will be 'standard recipe' : 2 x 20AWG bare AG in tubes with 3.5:1 SOCT-16 neutral.

NOW for the biggest 👍 My wife, always supportive, is now actively encouraging me. This morning I got the " building any more?" glint.

@toolbox149, I am hearing what you described and believe it or not, after last nights  session, considered adding a third 24AWG AG strand which would end up about 19AWG and easy enough to do.

Steve has tried, I think, 4 strands in parallel and claims no improvement heard, which gives me reason to be cautious.

However looking at what Kimber has done they seem to be successful with their Varistrand cable using multiple different gauges. I am now considering paralleling 26, 22 and 18AWG all in individual tubes together giving 1.28sq. mm, close to 16AWG overall.

Any brave souls out there willing to buy all that silver and experiment?

@pindac - apologies in the delay of my reply.

Regarding...

The Power Amp’ EE has asked for all devices to be in use, to be made available for the final testing to take place, as well as be supplied XLR Cables that can have a Earth Shield detached at One Connector.

The query is, does the Helix Design lend itself to this request from the EE.

I was not quite onboard with the EE’s inquiry, when questioning me about the Cables to be built, I am interested in meeting the request from the EE, and to have a Cable available with this as a option, which will be able to have a shield detached.

Unfortunately my practical experience is limited to single ended designs, because I have no components that share the balanced XLR architecture.

However I have some limited experience with XLR connectors and cables.

What the EE appears to be referring to is a floating shield approach.

For this to be effective there must be at least two llayers of seperate shielding

• Where the inner layer of shield is connected to the ground pin of the XLR plugs at both ends
• and only one end of the outer layer of shielding is connceted to the ground pind of the connector,
• and the other end is not connected.
• the thought is any airborn RFI is wicked away to the ground of the component where the shield is connected
• this supposedly prevents the noise from entering the signal path and being amplified by the following "stages" of amplification
• the connected plug must always be inserted into the "Source" component

The main issue these days is that many source components are of an insulated design (i.e. they have a two pin plug, so they are NOT grounded, which means this approach will be of little use because the noise is not wicked away.

With the design of the Helix, the helix coil "interupts" any external RFI

• preventing noise from entering the signal wires, much like a faraday cage
  • making a seperate shield unessesary.
• the Helix even works with connecting between a turntable and a phono stage on many systems
  • but I am aware of a couple of systems where noise was still an issue for some reason
  • these had to have a heavily shielded convetional cable

This link may help your understanding of where the "EE" is coming from 

XLR Conections

Hope that helps - Steve

@tecknik - apologies for the delay in answering the following

Williewonka@ what’s the influence of sound by the twisted neutral and ground”does a tighter twist over the live wires increase focus, air or timber of the ac cable.Williewonka@ what’s the influence of sound by the twisted neutral and ground”does a tighter twist over the live wires increase focus, air or timber of the ac cable.

I have not observed any changes in perofrmance when altering the diameter of the helix coil.

I intially believed there may be some benefit to having a larger coil, especially WRT speaker cables, which carry a higher voltage than interconencts, but subsequent work with power cables proved this supposition to be incorrect.

I do still believe that increasing the ratio of the Helix neutral to the signal wire, i.e. resulting is more turns, on those cables used between the turntable and the phono stage, could help reduce the amount of noise present on SOME OLDER systems.

• But I have learned there are many systems that experience no noise at all using the more conventional 3:1 ratio.

Hope than answers your question

Regards - Steve

No problem williewonka,

Have you tried wrapping the live wire in copper mesh before winding the neutral and ground around it with the male side grounded?
 

would this increase capacitance or resistance effecting the dynamics.

The thought of wrapping the live with a copper wire mesh popped in my head but given the amount of work it will take I wanted some thoughts before I proceeded.

thanks ,

steven 

@tecknik - I've found shileding on cables impacts the openess, so I never use it.

Also the Helix coil acts like a faraday cage, which makes the need for a shield redundant.

I've clenched a Helix power cable next to a Helix interconnect in my fist with the volume at full volume (no music playing) and the resulting hum was barely audible

I did have one instance where a friends very old tube system created a hum with a Helix Interconenct connecting the turntable to the amp's internal phono stage. So he had to use a conventional shieided cables for that duty..

But I have also had reports from many others that there was no hum present in that situation on their more modern systems.

Personally, I have never had a hum issue due to the helix interconnects, so I have never pursued using a screen on them

Hope that helps - Steve

@williewonka Hi Steve

Thank You for your support.

Hi guys, I have just received an email back from Stephanie at Parts Connexion that the 14AWG bare Connex solid Cu. wire is out of stock and that the business that supplies it has closed down !&^%#

Any ideas for a substitute?

I have 70 hrs play time on the 2 x 24AWG Ag / SOCT-18 interconnect which has amazing high frequency detail and brilliance (it's not really bright)  but it just sounds lightweight so I am considering adding a single 20AWG solid Ag to each, resulting in about 17.5AWG   Any thoughts?

The earlier made CCC interconnect by comparison sounds weightier and easier to listen to but seems to lack the inner glow of the Silver.

I would wait after the 400 hours burn-in mark before making any fine tuning to the design.

Yes, I agree. At the price of silver wire I will not be making premature decisions. The first helix I built was with PC Triple C Cu. which I left in its insulation and has had now about 220 hrs. It appears to have stabilised but will not disturb it for now. It will be relatively easy to remove the signal wire, remove its insulation and place each wire in a PTFE tube and listen again.

I have for some time suffered from an upper mid-range glare. Female vocals were mostly unlistenable. The CCC calmed that down to the point that we were able to listen to music that we once avoded.  As previously mentioned I can now listen to more of my files which IMO is a huge win.

The extra sparkle from the OCC Ag. is attractive and for my system may require  combining a strand of CCC which is 19AWG Cu. with the 2 x 24AWG Ag. though I don't know yet how Cu. and Ag. in parallel will behave.

@lemonhaze - I would NOT recomemnd mixing copper and silver wires for a single signal conductor - the speed of transmission of the two metals is different and the resolution/clarity will suffer

Adding the 20 gauge Ag to the 2 x 24 Ag wires is a much better idea provided the quality of silver of the three wires is identical

Regards - Steve

@lemonhaze Thank You for your continued description on the perception of the CCC Wire.

I have the perception that CCC Wire as a standard Cable configuration cleans up the presentation in a improved manner over a OCC Wire as standard cable configuration.

When compared as a DIN>RCA Phono Cable the CCC Wire Cable Superseded a OCC Silver Wire Cable, the CCC was perceived as the wire that offered a preferred balance across the frequencies, notes and vocals were delivered with a improved substance to their envelope and was certainly the least smearing of the Details/Micro Details.

I would suggest that the two cables can be compared at intervals, after experiencing extended use of the wire types being used.    

My HiFi System is nearly all in storage at present, which results in my delay to produce the Helix Cable Design.

I have now offered a friend a selection of collected Wire to build the Helix Design for themselves.

In my cache of Wire, there is a Stranded PC Triple C/EX which has a forged CCC Silver Coating on the Copper Core Wire. 

This is one I was going to strip down to the strands and attempt to make a Tonearm Internal Wand Wire.

@pindac, yes the CCC wire is impressive as is the OCC Ag. As most of us realise systems differ and mine which is border line over-analytical requires, I think a mix of these two types.

I will modify the 'skinny' IC and allow many more hours play and then figure out what direction to go.

What I do know now is that the helix design is inherently superior to anything else I've tried. To this end my Van den Hul Orchid interconnect was my reference. It's basically a single stand of Ag. in VdH 'special' insulation with a coax style neutral and additional screen. He uses hybrid and various weird stuff in his cables. I used to refer to his cables as Van den Dull but the Orchid is an exception to this.

When I replaced the above with the CCC helix I was immediately thrilled with what I was hearing. This one pair of interconnects was not just different and a little better, it took my system to a higher level and my thinking changed!

This expensive exercise has possibly saved me money 🤔

I no longer feel that maybe it's time to upgrade my 30 year old Wadia 15 DAC. Plays redbook only and I do not feel this is a handicap. My DIY power amp is performing beautifully with explosive transients and dynamics. It can stay.

More experimentation with different concoctions will add to the Helix Cookbook recipes.

@lemonhaze - having a slightly smaller neutral will not impact performance singificantly.

You could add a second 18 gauge Neutral which would make it larger than the revised signal conductor, but I would wait until you’ve listened to it and then if you feel there is some shorcomings then perhaps tackcle a second neutral OR even replace it with a 16 gauge neutral

I might opt for a 16 gauge neutral, as it might provide a slight advantage over a 2 x 18 gauge neutral.

I tried a dual wire neutral and for me it did not provide enough of an advantage considering the addition effort it took to build. But others swear by the dual neutral build.

My build was using bare wire inside teflon tube for the neutral, while it is a very nice cable

• I did not find using a dual neutral was significantly better
• I did not find using bare wire inside a teflon tube to provide any noticeable benefit
• My other two cables use 16 guage wire with Teflon insulation

WRT the bare 14 gauge wire - I guess you would have to buy wire with teflon insulation and remvove the insulation. I did this before I found the bare wire

I think there is a version that has PVC insulation which is more affordable

Hope that helps

@williewonka, I will heed your advice, add the extra signal wire and allow it to accumulate some hours before doing anything else. I think that the single strand of wire should not take as long to settle down as the full build did.

Yes the OCC is available with PVC insulation and is as you say less expensive than PTFE. It's also easier to remove.

@pindac Dear PINDAC, may I ask where to buy D.U.C.C. bulk wires? Thank you.

I have not found a Bulk Supplier of the Wire, as D.U.C.C which is the name used when found in a Cable.

Mitsubishi has a Ref Code for the Wire which I believe is the same wire. I have never found a Bulk Buy option whilst researching this Ref Code either.

https://www.mitsubishi-copper.com/en/products/materials/mof_6n8/

My D.U.C.C Wire has been purchased as Mitsubishi D.U.C.C Cable.

Note: D.U.C.C Wire has the capability to underpin the presentation with a hint of Richness, this really suits a Vocal, but in one system during it in use as a demonstration against a Pure Silver Wire Cable, one attendee was claiming there was a sound being produced where the Female Vocal sounded slightly nasal.

It might be worth having a Trial with a Cable prior to fully committing to the Purchase. I myself have not had a better Cable between CDP>DAC, this has superseded, OCC, PC TripleC, and a Mapleshade Ribbon.

@pindac Dear PINDAC, thank you. I will go with PC-TripleC as of now. Cheers. 

Williewonka, I believe you mentioned the Teflon tube to be 25-30% larger than the bare wire inside it, what effects does a larger Teflon tube have on the sound. 
 

i just finished building a new dc power cable using 2x 26g wires and the smallest Teflon tube I could find is probably a 10g . 
 

regards

tecknik

@tecknik 

Be careful here!

What voltage and current this DC cable will handle?

5v powering a FMC been running this wire for months without issue, so far….

It’s wire from an Audioquest diamond usb cable I wasn’t using anymore..

@tecknik - RE:

I believe you mentioned the Teflon tube to be 25-30% larger than the bare wire inside it. what effects does a larger Teflon tube have on the sound.

I found that 25-30% was  suitable value because

• a smaller size made fabrication more difficult
  • e.g. for speaker calbes it became more difficult to insert the a 10 ft length of wire into the teflon tube if it were smaller that 25-30% lager than the wire
• A larger size might collapse around the wire with frequent handling or when using tight bends at the back of a rack

Hope that helps - Steve

Does anyone have tried the Helix speaker cable to fire up a REL subwoofer using the high level input? Just curious if the improvement will be noticeable.

@norco74 - nevr tried it, but I would think that the Helix would be an improvement over a more conventiona speaker cable because it does not colour the sound

• but it really depends on your hearing. I play bass guitar so my ears are accustomed to the lower frequncies and I like the bass details the Helix provides.

So regardless of whether you use the speaker terminals or the line input, you need a cable that can deliver an uncoloured signal

It would be cheaper to use a good line input cable, as opposed to the heavier wire used in the speaker cable, but that is only if the main amp and the sub supports a bass line ibput/ouput jack

Hope that helps - Steve

@williewonka, I added a 20AWG Ag to the 2 x 24AWG Ag and now have over 300 hours use and I feel the performance is now stable and probably will not improve further. The additional wire was twisted to follow the 2 thinner wires and then covered the bundle in a cotton sleeve before inserting it back into the helix coil. Tight fit.

The helix was wound on a 5mm diameter rod which I've now covered in heat-shrink tubing enlarging it for easier fit. 

The result is more fleshed out providing a more balanced sound without losing the upper end sparkle, I think. Not being able to revert back as a sanity check is unfortunate, so going on memory is all I can do but I can say I'm entirely happy with what I hear. Excellent stuff. 😁

Not built any power cables yet due to other pressing issues but will when I get a gap and report here.

@lemonhaze - good stuff indeed 👍

Glad is oanned out

Regards - Steve

I didn’t read all the way through this thread but my interest is piqued.  I note that the posters here are DIY constructors making these cables for personal use, but are there any commercial manufacturers of cables with this geometry?  I know that Grannyring made these for awhile but no longer does so.  Otherwise, I haven’t seen anyone else offer them for sale. I am looking for a single XLR IC to start.

SAEC SL 5000 Cable has PC Triple C Wire and if the construction is looked into, a Helix Twist can be identified as being used.

The above is guidance to a Manufacturer, not as suggestion the SAEC Cable is a mimic of this Cable construction type.  

@pindac .Thanks.  Unfortunately, it appears they only use RCA connectors and I can use only XLR’s with my DAC and amp.

@mikerubin The XR 5000 is the XLR version of this Cable.

Williewonka I’ve been playing around with this helix geometry for sometime now and have found what works best for me and that’s for PC powering source equipment I use 8 strands of 18 awg solid core pure Japanese copper in Teflon tubing for both live and neutral for a combined 9 awg. It’s not the awg so much has the number of conductors. I would like to use 20 awg solid but difficult to find here in Vietnam. For ground I use 2x 12 awg stranded. 
The main PC from wall to conditioner s 7x 14 awg in Teflon tubing for both live and neutral. 
I first tried 4 x 18 awg and 4 x 14 awg then 6 x 18 awg and 6 x 14 awg and each step gave me more of what the helix geometry is so good at.

I didn’t do this by chance but from studying how cables like Nordost Odin and Audioquest use multiple solid wires on both live and neutral.

I use Furutech Rhodium mini spades to connect with there Rhodium NCF plugs.

These are stunningly good cables for reasonable cost.

@tecknik , interesting post.

I tried 4 wires for the live  and found it did not improve things over the two wire version.

Can you post pictures of the cables and construction techniques on your system page

Cheers, steve

@williewonka I’ve posted on my systems page a version showing a PC, all be doing a new speaker cable next week and we’ll post them. 

Have you tried 4 wires on both and both L and N in Teflon tubing. 

@tecknik - I have great repsect for the Nordost approach, since they were one brand the started me down this path.

At this point in time the formulas I have posted work well for me and I like to keep things simple so that other can try them without getting too complicated to build

But one of the main reasons for making the Helix design available to everyone is to generate interest in their approach so that others like yourself can apply your own addaptions to the design.

Good luck with your upcoming speaker cables, it will be interesting to hear your feedback on their sound

FYI - I did try using OCC copper for both live and neutral on a pair of speaker cables, but I found them to be extremely analytical and detailed, so I reverted back to the 10 guage Mil-spec for the neutral, which seemed to create a more musical result

Regards - Steve

Any recommendations that won’t reduce performance but can cleanup the helix lumpy, 80s telephone cord appearance? 
Maybe put the whole thing in a large silicone or Teflon tube. 
 Sleeving alone doesn’t help. Thanks 

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

I am sure there are others that can't but help admiring their handy work, and the quality seen for the producing a uniform 'Helix Configuration' .

Just finished helix interconnect cables using left over, from speaker cable project, of Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oil as the signal wire and Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire Green Cryo Treated as helix. I am very pleased, they bettered Basis Audio Perfect Signal Transmission Technology, mostly in the sound stage.

Thank you Mr. williewonka

P.S. The Duelund speaker cables amazing as well.

Maybe @pindac, but I see a 1980s telephone cords coming out of from my system.

@williewonka what are the effects of sliding the entire helix into a large Teflon tube so I could then cover with nice sleeving?

@camrector 

How about try it yourself and find out 🙄

@camrector - no need for the Teflon tube - it would make the cables very stiff

It is very easy to insert the finished cable into an expandable sleeve and it will not degrade performance at all.

The cables on the web site are without sleeve so people can see how they are made

I have tried both the plain nylon expandable sleeve and the more elaborate patterned sleeve.

I will caution that on the interconnects you will probably not be able to get the sleeve inside the KLE RCA housing..

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks @williewonka. I’m using silk sleeve already but you can still see the lumpy

helix through it. So maybe sliding the entire cable into a flexible silcon tube wouldn’t degrade anything. 
These really are fantastic. So far I have 2 source power cables and an XLR.

Power cables are 2x 16g for the live and 12g for the neutral and ground Neotech OCC with neotech connectors and the XLRs are 2x20g neotech silver live and 16g Neotech copper in Teflon for the ground with AECO silver connectors. 
@knock1 just wanted to see if anyone had done it first before I go unsoldering connectors and dissembling. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@camrector - instead of teflon, use a nylon expandable sleeve, you wull not see the "lumps" and its' much more flexible

Regards - Steve