Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Thanks. I ordered a batch of parts from Take Five Audio.  They had all of the parts in 1 place and they ship down here to the States cheaply.

🤞 I got the tubing sizes correct.

Thanks for the amazing thread @williewonka  @wig  @grannyring and everyone.

Ron

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable ? - I think so

This version implements everything I have learned/tried over the past few years

• 2 x 20 guage UP-OCC 5N solid Silver wire from Parts Connexion, each wire in it’s own teflon tube for the Signal wires, with a complete twist every 2" - 3"
• 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC 6N solid copper from Parts Connexion, each wire in it’s own teflon tube for the Neutral wires
• Teflon tube with an internal diameter equivalent to a 14 gauge bare wire
• Absolute Harmony RCA plugs

I pondered this build for about 3 months because of the difficulties there might be attempting to wind a coil using a solid wire inside a Teflon tube - and not only one wire, but two wires, because this build would adopt the Double/Double approach.

• now - If you are using a wire with insulation, the insulation, just bends with the wire
• my concern was that the insulation would creep down the wire as I wound it
• leaving some part of the coil without Teflon tube around it and no way to remedy this problem.
• turns out, provided you hand wind the first 4-5 turns, then the insulation seems to stay in place and you can then use the drill to finish the winding process
• But you do have to proceed carefully because you have to control the feeding of the two wires very carefully otherwise you can get spaces or worse still, the wires coils on top of the previous windings.

The rest of the fabrication went without problem - I used a 3/16" (5mm) rod to wind the coil on.

Another concern was whether there would be sufficient improvement to justify the expense of using silver wire?

The answer came as soon as I plugged in the cables, bridging from my Bluesound Node 2i to my Bryston B135 amp - that uses...

1. Power cables are all 2 x 14 gauge UP-OCC bare Solid copper in Teflon tubes for the Live conductor with 2 x 12 gauge UP-OCC stranded copper for the neutral
2. Speaker cables are 2 x 14 gauge bare solid UP-OCC copper in Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor with 1 x 10 gauge stranded silver plated Mil-Spec for the neutral
3. The previous Interconnect I was comparing it to was 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper in Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor with 1 x 16 gauge Neotech solid UP-OCC copper wire for the neutral

Well - this new Interconnect has surpassed all of my expectations..

1. image was the first noticeable improvement - larger in all directions with much more precise placement of artist and performers
2. Dynamics are faster and crisper
3. There is more body to the mid range - they sound "warmer"
4. lower frequencies have a lot more texture and precision
5. mid/upper range Details and Clarity are the two attributes that sort of crept up on me as I played through my audition tracks
6. there are far more micro details - i.e. the venue acoustics are more apparent and there are far more of the little echoes and reverberations of the concert hall.
7. But there is a more musical presentation about these cables - they just seem more complete
8. Listening at lower levels you still hear all the details without compromising details, musicality and emotion of the music.

This is probably the end of the line for the Helix, mainly because because I am all out of ideas as to where to take them next :-)

But boy-oh-boy - what an ending!

It’s good to end on "a high note" - pun intended :-)

Give them a try - for me it was worth it

Regards - Steve

Will I be able to use the Helix speakers cables with a Yamaha PC2002 power amplifier? 

It has balanced inputs but i don't know if its a fully balanced design.

@fai_v - this appears to be an older amplifier. The balanced symmetrical design is relatively recent,  I also saw no warnings on picture of the amp (rear view) that indicates the amp is a balanced symmetrical design.

I believe the Helix cables will work with this amp

Regards - Steve

RE: The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - I forgot to mention that when winding the helix conductor ..

• I initially cut both the wire and the tubing to the appropriate length
  • I left enough wire to form a 1" tightly twisted section at each end of the conductor
  • so the tube was 2" shorter than the wure
• but when I finished winding the coil there was 4" of wire at the free end
• so you need to make the tubing longer than the wire
• e.g. On a 3ft cable I would recommend making the tubing 6" longer than the wire and trim to the correct length once would
• I believe that the wire forms a tighter coil than the tubing so you end up with excess wire

Other than that - break-in is proceeding very nicely.

Regards - Steve

@williewonka - I always wanted to understand the signal flow and what is claimed to be directional wire.  I know when you get to OCC quality the wire is drawn/produced in a certain way and there is a consensus that signal flow should follow that direction.

My specific question for DIY speaker cables - If you buy into this directional approach, should you have positive and negative runs in opposite directions?

I have used a lot of Furutech Alpha hook up wire and have followed their directional arrows.  

Can't claim that I can tell a difference, but this one kept me up thinking last night....

Marty

@mbolek - you have touched on a subject that I am yet to observe, despite having tried it many times with a variety of cables - e.g. power, interconnect and speaker cables.

I do not doubt the observations of others - i.e. a cable sounds better in a specific direction.

• is it due to the metal of the wire?
• is it due to the insulation?
• is it due to the geometry of the cable?
• is it due to the connectors of the cable?
• is it due to the socket in the component?
  • sockets/plugs is an area that can cause lots of issues
  • I would not be surprised if this is the cause of this phenom

Since I have never observed this phenom I no longer account for it in my builds and so far I have not been disappointed.

But you do make a valid point - should the wire be reversed for the neutral?

• With the exception of fully balanced symmetrical designed amps and balanced power distribution systems
  • Helix cables are not suited to these
  • and I lack the experience in this design approach
• In Single ended systems, electrical energy flows in one direction, from the power station to ground/neutral - it just happens to pass through our components along the way
• granted the polarity changes in an audio signal, but the energy will always flow from source to "ground"
• so if I had to GUESS - both wires should be aligned in the direction of the energy transfer
• but it is not something that I would account for in my cable builds

Sorry I could not be of more assistance

Regards - Steve

@williewonka -Thanks for your feedback. Lots of different parameters that can affect the sound. For me, I rely on good conductors, low mass connectors (or no connectors), and secure connections. Rather be listening to music than pondering all the variables....

I like building cables, not as extensively as you, but it’s a nice hobby.

Helix build with the bare UP-OCC is in my near future. Although, after listening to some Zavfino stuff, I’m really impressed. At their price points, I’ll be hard pressed to build anything that looks and performs as well.

Appreciate all your attention to the details and real world feedback.

Marty

@mbolek - Whilst I have not had the opportunity to try Zavfino cables for myelf I have read their product literature in depth regarding their application of:

• UP-OCC wire
• advaned insulations
• advanced cable geometry techniques

However, the latest Helix bare wire in Teflon Tubes adaption has proven exceptional

• this adaption took the Helix to another level of performance
• and I now use 5N solid UP-OCC Silver in Telfon tube for the signal wires in Interconnects

I think you will be surprised (in a good way) by the Helix, even when compared to very good cables like Zavfino.

As for.....

I’ll be hard pressed to build anything that looks......

Agreed! - Zavfino do build a very nice looking cable!

• but you can use one of the many expanding sleeves out there to "pretty-up" the Helix cables
• It iwll not impact performance
• I don’t use it because it is a complexity I do not need to unravel each time when trying out new things on a cable

For me, this journey has not been a "competition" between the Helix and other brands

My goal was to:

• develop a cable that delivered great sounding music
• for a modest price
• that ordinary people with modest resources could build for themselves

it all stared with a an idea for a different approach to cable design and some old LAN cables

• along the way many other DIYers contributed significantly to getting the Helix Cables to where they are today
• My thanks to you all 😊

So if you do try the Helix cables - post your "cable recipe" and findings here

• it’s always good to hear observations from others 👍

Regards - Steve

I have quite a stock of PC Triple C Wire to produce my Helix Cables.

I am behind with this as a task in hand as with many other tasks to be completed.

The Dual Mono Balanced Pre is still to start, as well as the conversion of the Power Amp's to Balanced, so it is not too much of a pressure at present to achieve the Cable Build. 

I have been talking about my impressions with PC Triple C and loaning my assembled Interconnect Cables produced with this wire to other HiFi enthusiast friends, many of whom are sure that the OCC wire already in use, is not going to be improved upon.

There are, as a result of my interventions and passed on word of mouth reports,  new reports becoming regularly seen on the usage of the wire, which is slowly bringing to fruition a host of individuals starting to replace their OCC wire with the PC Triple C wire Interconnects. 

It would be great if a respected authority on the Helix Design could adopt the PC Triple C wire and produce a build with this different wire design.

Not too long ago, I would have claimed to have had a gut feeling that something that could impress was achievable, as that was my own singular experience, with the recent activity, I am feeling very confident there will be something on offer that has not been experienced, and will create a positive response.     

@williewonka 

Hey Steve, I'm curious why you switched to smaller wires in the silver cable build? Was it just the associated cost or other, more technical, factors?

Thanks,

Ron

@bigslacker RE: 

I'm curious why you switched to smaller wires in the silver cable build?

$COST was the main reason.

• I figured that if this combination provided noticeable improvements I could alway try the heavier gauge in the next cable if I thought it was required
• but the results are so good that I have decided to try the 2 x 20 gauge Silver with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulatoin to see if the double helix Air is really required

The 2 x 20 gauge Silver compared to the 2 x 18 gauge copper had more "body" and sounded more complete and warmer, with a nicer image and faster dynamics.

I'm not sure the 2 x18 gauge solid silver would be worth the additoinal cost, but you could always try it and report back

I'll post observations on my second cable here.

Regards - Steve

@pindac - can you provide a link to this wire so I can take a look at it please - thanks

The only thinng I have found to date is the Furutech CCC bulk power cable, which is stranded.

• Stranded wire does not perofrm to the same level as solid wire.
• Os there a solid CCC witr avaolable - if yes - please provide a ink

When you say that others a prefering the CCC to UP-OCC are they comparing soolid wire to solid wire?

Mant Thanks - Steve

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update!

The wire/RCA’s arrived today so I was able to construct an Interconnect cable with 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid silver signal with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC solid copper with teflon insulation.

With just a few hours break-in it would appear that this cable is a real winner.

As suspected the magic is in the Silver UP-OCC solid wire indisde Teflon tubes and not so much the neutral conductor.

I spent an hour going through my audition tracks plus a few other select tracks and tthe results were just as stunning as the the cables with a neutral made from 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper in Teflon tube.

The 1 x 16 gaue with Teflon insulation neutral is much easier to wind and is cheaper.

The image is breathakingly large and very focused - the clarity and details are superb.

The warmth and body I spoke of in my comments a couple of posts ago I believe are due to the improved focus of artist/instrument placement within the image is allowing improved isolation and hence much imporved clarity

• it is as though the individual artists/instruments are no longer "overlapping" each other
• hope that makes sense.

Regards - Steve

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the update. I was ready to pull the trigger on a copper build. Your comments may sway me toward the silver.

I’m planning an XLR version, assuming you would use two silver conductors for the signal wires and the 16awg for the Helix neutral.

Also thinking about a hybrid version that uses Chris’ v-quad wire and then do a helix wrap.

@williewonka The Speaker Cables being adopted by the other converts are Solid Core SAEC which I have learned has an increased gauge to my supply, which has a 0.9mm (19 awg) diameter Solid Core wire. 

I will PM later with a link attached for the Wire I use, that is easy to obtain, a couple of the stranded wire types has proven difficult to acquire.

If this wire is off interest, it will be worthwhile looking at D.U.C.C, as I am using this wire and CCC as standard assembly RCA Interconnects, the D.U.C.C offers a slight perception of adding a hint of richness when compared to PC Triple C, but has proved to be more more attractive that OCC interconnects, especially for the differences noticed to quietness and smearing.

I found D.U.C.C really stood out when used on my digital source.  

@pindac - where do you buy this wire?

I have only found both the wires you talk about listed as Mains bulk cables - which is much larger than required for interconencts.

Are you using DUCC for Interconnects?

0 if so, do you seperate strands to get a finer gauge?

Unfortunately the PM function does not allow links like the forums do, so you should post any links here

Regards - Steve

@mbolek - re:

Also thinking about a hybrid version that uses Chris’ v-quad wire and then do a helix wrap

The Vquad wire has a lot of insulation - and its the insulaton that impacts clarity and details in all cables.

Whilst I was initially aprehensive about usnig silver wire for the signal wires due to fears of cost vs. performance - the improvements in performance with the solid silver wire was very noticeable - even before any break-in.

For interconencts - 5N Solid Silver UP-OCC bare wire is now my first choice and recommendation.

Regards - Steve

Steve,

What type of wire is the 16awg UP OCC?

Thx.

Sorry.   Where do you source the 16awg wire?

@williewonka The Link is to the Solid 0.9mm PC CCC Wire I have acquired. 

The price is per metre in length, so this supplies two single wires at a common Interconnect Length.

This is the wire that has superseded my Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix that was used in my system for many years, and also a Speaker Cable that held its own at a Speaker Cable Bake Off where much more expensive cables were in the line up.

There is also a slightly thicker Solid Wire available from Acoustic Revive Speaker Cables.     

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10004950/2_1/lgk-link_top_search

The D.U.C.C Wire is produced by Mitsubishi and it is Mitsubishi Cables that I have that are terminated with Aeco Silver RCA Plugs.

The D.U.C.C Wire can be found used by Acrolink in various Cable Types, Audio Technica use it in a various Cable Types and as a blend of a wire with other wire types, Luxman produce a dedicated Phono Cable from the wire.

Mitsubishi produce a Speaker Cable that has a Solid Core Wire. This is the Wire I am looking to acquire to produce my own Cables, it is not as easily discovered for sale in a long length, as the PC Triple C is.

SAEC are the only Company I know using ePC Triple C in a Tonearm and this is selling for $13000.

After encouragement a friend who produced their own Tonearm Design has now used a PC Triple C Wire within the Tonearm, as a continuous Wire from the Cart',   I picked up on the deathly silence on my first demonstration a few weeks past and was of the comment that it was another incremental move for the betterment.

When the sheath is discovered that is extremely soft and supple, it will be a very worthwhile upgrade choice.      

@pindac - it would appear that the wire you have provided links to is of a comparable (if not higher) quality to the UP-OCC solid copper wire available from other vendors mentioned in this thread

The 0.9mm dia (19 gauge) would be ideal for the interconnects and the thicker gauge you mention would be better suited to Mains and Speaker cables

How much better than the other UP-OCC wires would it be?

• From what I have read/tanslated, I have no doubt that this wire will perform upto (and may marginally exceed)  the performance level of the UP-OCC wires.
• when you get to wires of this quality there would be very litte difference between them,
• so then it comes down to
  • personal poreference
  • cost - this wire appears to be reasonably priced
  • availability - are all required gauges available ?
  • delivery - how long doe it take to arrive ?
  • convenience 
    • ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Other vendors, like Parts Connxion, are able to supply most (if not all) of the parts required for th Helix cables, so there is the convenience for one-stop-shopping

For me, this wire does not provide enough of a "technological advancement" to warrant the expense and effort of performing a comparison.between rwo wires that would probably offer very similar levels of performance.

For Interconencts - the UP-OCC 5N Solid Silver wire will/does provide significant improvement over this wire and UP-OCC Solid Copper

• the only thing that deters me from using UP-OCC Solid Silver for speaker cables is the expense
• but if anyone is pursuing "Audio Nirvana" then this is the wire to

So, If someone out there is looking for wire for a Helix Build, the the DUCC and Tripple C wires would make a very fine cable

Regards - Steve

@mbolek  - here are the links to the wires I used for the interconects

For the Neutral wire:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-71448.html

For the Signal Wires

ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

Regards - Steve

@williewonka    Thx...

@williewonka  Thank You for your assessment, and encouragement to continue with the PC Triple C Solid Wire.

It is satisfying to know that I have a Solid Wire, that will be quite useful for my Interconnects which are most likely to be XLR with Atlas Plugs.

If it is not myself to be first build a Helix Design Cable with this wire type, when eventually a build appears, it will become an alternative version and in keeping with the R&D carried out by others on some of the other Helix Versions already offering the positive user impression that caught my attention.

I will one day join the Club, and much of the footwork is done to get on board.  

@pindac, @williewonka 

I have ordered some of the CCC wire.   I'll plan on building two versions of the XLR Helix.

1. partsconnexion bare PC OCC

2. PC CCC

I have no idea how long it will take to get the CCC.  Should be able to build the OCC Helix next week.

Marty

@mbolek This is great news that you are taking on the Two XLR Builds with wires very well known and the lesser known off wire.

You will be a pioneer for the CCC Wire Version and I eagerly await your thoughts being made known about this build. 

When I finally chose to maintain the PC CCC Wire as a Speaker Cable over the Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Cable, it took a little longer to convince myself to continue with the CCC wire than it did for the interconnects, the interconnects  was decided on quite promptly and after a period of time in use and then reintroducing the OCC, the CCC was reinstated with an immediacy.

Maybe the Solid Core CCC needs a little time of usage before it finds it voice.

Unfortunately, I can't rush into such a practice as the System is to be put in to storage for a period of time during 2022, due to an upcoming re-construction on the home demanding lots of funding. 

Hi Steve,

What size Teflon tubing did you use for the 20 gauge silver wire?

Thanks!

@massagevermont - I have used two different tubes on each of the interconenct cables - both having 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver UP-OCC wire

• for the Double/Double interconnct with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
  • and 2 x 18 gauge bare solid copper UP-OCC neutral wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
• for the Double/Single interconnect with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 14 gauge tubing from Parts Connexion
  • and 1 x 16 gauge gauge solid UP-OCC copper wire with Teflon insulation

As best I can tell...

• there is no discernible difference between these two cables
• i.e. on MY system with my ears  😃

Regards - Steve

Thanks, Steve.

Best,

Chris

@williewonka Just completed my first prototypes of the Helix XLR and PC.

I have uploaded a couple pics up on my system page.

I used some older silver wire and stripped off the insulation.  Bought some cheap tubing off of Amazon and wrapped it with solid core 18awg wire (not even OFC).  Basic Neutrik connectors.  Just hooked it up and will let you know how it sounds.

For reference, I have the following:

1. Canare 4E6S wire with Xhadow XLRs

2. Viborg 5N OFC

Waiting on my OCC (partsconnexion) and CCC (Japan) stuff to build the next sets. Saving my AECO XLRs for these builds.  

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.  Viborg plugs.

Quad 12awg = 9awg for L&N

dual 13awg Helix wrap = 10awg ground

Marty

@williewonka Just completed my first prototypes of the Helix XLR and PC.

I have uploaded a couple pics up on my system page.

I used some older silver wire and stripped off the insulation.  Bought some cheap tubing off of Amazon and wrapped it with solid core 18awg wire (not even OFC).  Basic Neutrik connectors.  Just hooked it up and will let you know how it sounds.

For reference, I have the following:

1. Canare 4E6S wire with Xhadow XLRs

2. Viborg 5N OFC

Waiting on my OCC (partsconnexion) and CCC (Japan) stuff to build the next sets. Saving my AECO XLRs for these builds.  

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.  Viborg plugs.

Quad 12awg = 9awg for L&N

dual 13awg Helix wrap = 10awg ground

Marty

Nice work Marty , I look forward to your impressions of your new cables 

@mbolek - sounds as though the VenHaus Mains Cable has identical Live and Neutral wires, with only the ground wires spiralled around the outside - correct?

Cheers - Steve

Steve - Yes. I had some older star quad and figured why not try build a Hybrid Helix PC...

The Star Quad construction utilizes 4 conductors in a "Star Quad" geometry that has even better self-shielding than a simple twisted pair. Each of the 4 wires in the Star Quad bundle has a low strand count (19 strands) of Deep Cryogenically Treated Oxygen Free Copper conductors. Each conductor is insulated with VH Audio’s AirLok™ dieletric, a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer insulation with a dieletric constant (D.C.) of less than 1.5. A clear FEP Fluoropolymer jacket is applied over the Star Quad cable to keep the conductors stabilized. >>> Available in 4 x 12AWG or 4 X 18AWG <<< Maximum Cable O.D. for each is as follows: 4 x 18 AWG = .235", 4 X 12 AWG = .365"

@mbolek - very interesting - A "Quasi-Helix" design? 🤔

"Technically" - this cable has some positive and negative atrtibutes/benefits

• on the positive side
  • the wire is cryo treated
  • is uses Airlok insulation, so it will have a lower noise floor than other cables
    • It is easier to use compared to Bare wire inside Teflon tube
• on the negative side
  • The Airlok insulation is not quite as good as the bare wire in Teflon tubes at lowering noise floor
  • it uses stranded OFC copper
    • solid wire is always better
    • UP-OCC copper improves dynamic performance over OFC copper

Having said all of that - your observations appear quite positive...

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.

It WOULD make a good power cable option for people using a Balanced Power Conditioner

• Because the Live and neutral conductors are identical
  • Helix PC’s are NOT best suited to this application because the Live and Neutral conductors are very different

QUESTION - to form the Live and Neutral conductors

• did you "pair" adjacent conductors ? OR
• did you pair opposite conductors ?

It will be interesting to hear your observations when comparing it to cables that employ

• solid UP-OCC coper
• A true Helix "Air" Cable geometry

Marty - That’s some nice "out of the box" thinking - congrats!

Regards - Steve

@williewonka - Added a pic to my system folder.   I paired based on "adjacent".  Although, based on the quad twist, it might actually look like opposite??

I do have some Viborg solid core OFC PCs. At some point I'll try a solid sore OCC Helix version.

Going to focus on these XLRs for the near term....

This is probably the end of the line for the Helix, mainly because because I am all out of ideas as to where to take them next :-)

@williewonka, I think your journey isn’t over yet because you haven’t tried rectangular silver wires. Some people say they sound even better.

@zlib - despite what others may believe - there are limits to my cable obsession 🤪

The only reason I can think square wire would improve things is the increase in effective gauge.

But you have planted a seed - only time will tell 👍

Cheers

I eagerly await the report on the PC Triple C XLR Build that is imminently to be produced by @mbolek 

This is where my interest lies and it will be good to see the Pioneer Wire used for the Cable produced and put to service. 

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update - i.e. after 200 hours Break-in!

The two "Ultimate" cables were constructed much the same as the normal Helix Air cables with the following "variation"

• Both cables used 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver wires, each wire inside Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor
• The Double/Double cable had 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with each wire inside Teflon tubes for the neutral
  • and previouslty used Absolute Harmony RCA plugs
• the Double/Single cable had 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation for the neutral
  • and brand new Absolute Harmony RCA plugs

Even during initial listening sessions these cables sounded amazingly good and it was very hard to distinguish anything between them i.e. on my system.

They have now both had about 200 hours of use and I find it difficult to discern any improvements compared to their initial auditions.

• Both cables are sounding amazingly detailed and airy.
• Both cables sound identical

So breaking down their performance...

Dynmics

• amazingly fast, with more textures being revealed with a fuller sound i.e. more "body"
• percussion instruments, e.g. gongs, cymbals, glockenspeil, xylophone etc. have more details of the initial strike and far more textures in the decay
• plucked instruments are especially more realistic as the string is being plucked

Image

• a more expansive image (in every direction) that envelops the listening position and spreads through both width, depth and height
• more easily discernible "layers" within the music that allows instruments and artists to be more easilty distinguished within the image
• the image now provides that sense of grandeur that large venues posess
  • this is very apparent when playing pipe organ music recorded live in a church or cathedral

Clarity and details

• not only are there more details within the image, but micro details like the fingernail plucking at the guitar or harp strings and the strings buzzing against the guitar fret board are easily heard
• Voculs sound fuller and more complete - they have more body and the whispery aspect of a vocal is even more detailed and discernible.

These cables "persuaded me" to go through my albums searching out details never before heard

• older albums circa 1960-1970 revealed deatils that were shockingly good for the time
• newer albums sounded even more astounding
• studio albums had a more life like aire to them
• Live albums transport you right into the venue

These cables are well worth the expense of the 5N solid silver UP-OCC bare wire.

But as it turns out - the Double/Single, that uses 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the neutral sounds every bit s good as the Double/Double, with  2 x 18 gauge wire (in Teflon tubes) - so it is more affordable and easier to construct.

• But that is on my system and with my OLD EARS to gauge their performance
• you might want to try the Double/Double if your system is highly resolving, because it might just reveal details that the Double/Single may omit.

That’s about it - give them a try - I don’t think you will dissapointed

Regards - Steve

Hi Steve,

For clarity, are you using the Neotech or the 5N 20 AWG wire? Cost of the latter is half of the Neotech. Don’t know what justifies it aside from the sleeving which will need to be stripped anyway.

Also, how’s the cable stiffness between the single and double neutral assembly?

Cheers

Daniel

@norco74 - these are the wires I used on the two Ultimate DIY Helix Cables

For the 1 x 16 gauge Neutral wire on the Double/Single cable:

• https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-71448.html

For the 2 x 18 gauge neutral wire on the Double/Double cable:

• https://www.partsconnexion.com/OCC6N-75183.html

For the 2 x 20 gauge Signal Wires on BOTH cables

• ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

Strangely, I had not noticed the price difference because I was always more focussed on other aspects of the build - so...

• you could employ the same technique as used on the neutral wire of the Double/Double cable
  • i.e. of using 1 x 16 gauge bare wire in Teflon tube for the neutral of the Double/Single cable.in place of the Neotech insulated wire
• it does require s little more care when winding the neutral coil
• it will perform equally as well as the insulated wire.
• Use a tube that has an internal diameter 25% - 30% larger than the diameter of the wire.

In listening test performed with an earlier cable,

• I compared two signal wires...
  • the Neotech wire with the insulation removed inside a Teflon tube
  • the bare wire of identical gauge inside a Teflon tube
• I found I preferred the Bare Wire
  • but the differences were miniscule

Hope that clarifies everyrthing

Regards - Steve

@norco74 - forgt to comment on

Also, how’s the cable stiffness between the single and double neutral assembly?

There is little difference in cable stiffness because you are not actually bending the wire in the neutral - The neutral is like a spring so flexes more easily

Doubling up on the neutral causes very little additional stiffness.

Regards - Steve

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the clarifications. Before I move to the next stage of modifications, I will try to understand the cost differences between the OCC5N and the Neotech UPOCC silver wires. Looks like all the silver are created equal.

Cheers

Daniel

Steve,

Received the partsconnexion order and put together the following Helix XLR.

18awg bare OCC with teflon tubes for the positive and negative

16awg Neotech for the ground (spiral)

AECO XLRs:   I really like these....

Looking back, the Neotech is really high priced and don't know if it is justified for this build.   

Hooked them up and will provide my thoughts.   Swapped my proto silver build as I described earlier.

Threw a couple pics up on my system page.   Maybe I'll put some tech flex around it and we can tell people that it's a $5K interconnect.....:)

@williewonka - earlier in this thread or maybe on your website I do believe you made some thoughts on using silver as conductor for the helix power cables?

Based on these new findings on interconnects is this an area of interest, you will consider going back to for further investigations?

@provst - I had used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold wire for one of my power cables

• but the UP-OCC solid copper in the power cables outperformed it.

What I am observing at this point in time...

• the Solid SIlver in the Interconnects provided quite the improvement
• BUT - I was able to hear those improvements using...
  • Speaker cables that used UP-OCC copper.
  • Power cables that used UP-OCC copper
• so how much of an improvement would using solid silver provide if used on either of those two cables?
• Would the speaker cables benefit from having UP-OCC Solid Silver Signal Wires?
  • Whilst it is obvious that UP-OCC Silver is a superior conductor I am not certain that using it for the live conductor on Helix Speaker cables would provide a similar level of improvement as observed when UP-OCC solid silver was applied to the Interconnect cables.
• Would the Source power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I think they would show some degree of improvement,
  • but any improvement would not be as noticeble as the the improvements achieved by using solid silver on the Interconnect cables
• Would the Amp power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I do not believe the Power Amp would show as much of an improvement as the source power cables may have provided

.For me, developing these cables has always been about

1. achieving a noticeable improvement in performance
2. at a reasonable cost

Or what I call Bang for the Buck

For me - I DO NOT believe upgrading my Power cables or Speaker cables with UP-OCC Solid SIlver would provide sufficient Bang for the Buck

I think it depends on whether a person is personally seeking...

• "Audio Nirvana"
• or just cost effective cables.

And - you also have to factor in the type of system they are being used on

• my system is modestly priced and therefore has some limitations
• A system having higher resolution capabilities may show a more appreciable benefit, in which case the cost could be worth it

Hope that helps clarify things

Regards - Steve

@provst - some additional thoughts I have regarding cables

Interconnects - convey the most "delicate" signals of an audio system

• This is especially true of Phono Interconnects
• they require the very best materials in order to transfer the incredibly fine micro details to the amplification stage.
• UP-OCC solid siiver is the best metal we currently have that can achieve this

Speaker cables - are dealing with a significantly larger signal,

• Where all of those micro details have now been amplified to levels that are not degraded (as much) by conductors such as UP-OCC copper, having a little less conductivity than UP-OCC Solid Siver
• So I believe any improvements will not be as noticeable, as with the interconnects
• But on highly resolving systems this may not be the case

Power Cables - I have read posts that state that power only operates at one voltage, at one frequncy, and as such, high priced cables are pointless

• But with power cables, you have to consider the BIG PICTURE
  • they accomodate the transfer of Electrical Enegy
  • i.e. as demanded by the circuitry
• In particular - the circuitry demands energy to handle tramnsient spikes
  • That energy comes from the power supply of the component
  • if the components power supply is designed to have sufficient energy reserves, the power supply satisfies those demands without a problem
  • HOWEVER, if the power supply is not capable of satifying those demands then additional demands are placed on the mains supply
    • and for very brief moments in time there is a slight drop in voltage of the component power supply, which impacts circuit performance
    • this is generally the situation with more "budget oriented" components
  • so as the demand for power is then passed back to the mains supply, so having a great cable will replenish the energy in the power supply in a more timely manner
    • however, those demands tend to be smaller than the actual transient peeks.
    • but for absolute best performance using UP-OCC Solid Silver is the best material we have available today
  • Whilst those "energy demands" may be small they are at the same frequncies as the audio signal transient peaks
    • so - the energy transfer within power cables are subject to the same frequncies as the Audio Signal (almost)
    • and as such they should be designed with the same precision/materials/geometry as Interconnects and speaker cables for absolute best performance.
  • In addition to all of the above, the energy in the power supply is continually being replenished via the power cable at close to the speed of light
    • if it is not replennished in a timely manner the output voltage of the power supply fluctuates, which imacts component performance

Please note - my statements regarding UP-OCC solic Silver and Copper as being the best materials we currently have applies ONLY to the DIY world.

• Carbon is being used in some commercial cables,
  • but it is much more difficult to terminate and therefore not really applicable to this discussion
• there may also be other materials that I am not aware of

Apologies for the long posts,

Regards - Steve