Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling
I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling” of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund, Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-diy-cables.html
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/difference-in-sound-between-copper-and-silver-digital-cables
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/adding-shielding-to-existing-cables
Enjoy,
Wig
@ eugeniy - RE: " how far were the hot and neutral wires?" I think you are referring to One other thing I tried was using the 2 x 14 gauge wires as the neutral conductor (but NOT coiled)To try this I used two sets of Helix speaker cables, but I did not connect the helix coils - I just used signal wire in one cable for the +ve and the signal wire in the other cable for the -ve Both cables had the coils in place, but not connected and were 1-2" apart. However, after trying the Air adaption (i.e. bare wire inside Teflon tube) on a few cables I now suspect that the proximity effect may have more to do with the insulation being used, than the issue of induction between wires. It may be that having an air gap between the wire and the Teflon tube is enough of a gap, such that the two conductors can now be inserted into an expandable sleeve, side by side, without impacting sound quality, but I am yet to try this I think that you can provide even more "spacing" by inserting each twisted pair conductor inside its own cotton sleeve. This could make the Helix coil redundant, if this is the case. It would certainly make fabrication so much easier with the advantage that the cable will now work with those amps that employ a symmetrical balanced design as well. What about the rest of the Helix cables - can this approach be applied to Interconnects and power cables? - It probably could, but I think using this new approach you would end up with a thicker and much stiffer cable. And while it works for speaker cables,
- this revealed more details, faster dynamics, but I felt the resulting sound was too "analytical" and overly "crisp" for my own personal taste.Not everything in this particular scenario was "equal"
The saga continues :-) BTW - the support from everyone in this thread is greatly appreciated and is inspiration for the continued developments. Regards - Steve |
Very interesting. Thank you very much Steve for the explanation. If I understand correctly, then your cables had a neutral MIL speck wire! If so, then replacing it with a better quality OCC + air insulation, gave such a result (most likely) as increased clarity and dynamics. As for the laying of the "+" and "-" wires, at least in the acoustic cable, many manufacturers make them separately and with good results, despite the increase in inductance. And this assumption is even more interesting: " However, after trying the Air adaption (i.e. bare wire inside Teflon tube) on a few cables I now suspect that the proximity effect may have more to do with the insulation being used, than the issue of induction between wires." I think you will be the first in these studies again!)) Еugeniy |
I just want to give my personal experience and opinion here. I have tried using the nude wire approach in Teflon tube on the positive conductors in my double helix builds. I have found I prefer keeping the original red Teflon in place on the Neotech or VH Audio wire. (IC builds) For me the nude wire approaching with Teflon tube was simply too direct and too forced sounding. For me it was just too much of a good thing. Almost like too much resolution when combined with the perceived slight loss of warmth and natural tone. I prefer the slightly warmer and laid-back sound with the Teflon in place. This is a very subjective thing, but something I have found to be true for me. I suspect this would be true for other listeners also. I also find that by placing a single or a double layer of cotton tubing over the twisted pair of positive wires really does help to tame vibrations and increase musicality. |
@grannyring - I agree - I think it's much like selecting a pair of speakers - each person hears differently, so different people will have their own preferences.as to what type of speaker they will choose. There is no right or wrong, just a personal preference Unfortunately - finding those personal preferences is the challenge, but "trusting our ears" is the only way to proceed Regards - Steve |
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A little bit off topic, but relevant to wire types. I have been quite impressed with the use of Phono IC's made with PC Triple C Wire. It has now replaced permanently a Silver OCC Wire IC. A friend has been introduced my owned PC Triple C IC's and has expressed a very positive reaction, to the point they have imported their own cables. Not bad for somebody who builds cables and is a close associate of another cable producer who has a following for their work. The associate this weekend past was introduced to my friends imported PC Triple C cables used on their system. I have been informed the impression that these cable made was something quite special. I think it safe to say, that the PC Triple C wire can offer a rethink on the use of OCC and OCC alpha which is used by the two converts. |
@pindac - the PC Tripple C copper is very similar to UP-OCC copper, in that the crystalline structure has been modified to allow for better signal transfer. I have not tried the PC Tripple C, but from the literature I have read it looks as though it would provide very similar benefits. But there is also UP-OCC SOLID SILVER wire, which improves on extremely fine details and dynamics - provided your system can resolve to that level. But as both myself and @grannyring has mentioned - we "dialed back" on some of our wire choices in certain instances, simply because we found the sound of a particular wire/insulation/geometry combination to be "less musical" But - either wire would make a fine cable. If anyone else has compared the UP-OCC wire to the PC Trippe C wire, please share your thoughts with us Regards - Steve |
Apologies - I had to repost this because I made a mistake on the interconnects - I now use 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC with each wire inside a Teflon tube with a gentle twist For speaker cables
For Interconnects
For the Heavy Duty power cables (i.e. for amps and power distribution)
If anyone else wants to share their "builds" I believe it would be of great value, since a great deal of what we have all tried is lost in the sheer volume of text that exists in this thread Cheers - Steve |
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@dbass - I have reverted back to the original Helix design - i.e.
After giving this approach a lot more audition and thought, I have concluded it should only be used for those amps that have balanced symmetrical speaker outputs. Spacing the +ve and -ve wire conductor assemblies is an issue and the best/cost effective approach I could think of is to wind a separate coil for each conductor assembly in counter rotating directions - which
Using Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire inside Teflon tubes for both +ve and -ve conductor assemblies will provide extremely detailed and articulate results, but since audiophiles are looking for a more "musical sound" this approach may NOT provide the outcome some may be looking for
Hope hat helps - Steve. |
"Not everything in this particular scenario was "equal"
The saga continues :-)" Steve, I think this design is very good! In my opinion, in this case, you need to use other connectors to search for musicality. Best regards, Evgeny |
@eugeniy - agreed - connectors can also be changed to "tune" a systems to one’s personal preferences. However, I think that changing a connector may not provide as much of a change as one might desire, i.e. compared to changing a significantly longer piece of wire. The KLE Bananas that I prefer are the most articulate and musical connectors I have tried, closely followed by the Silver plated pure copper Furez connectors. I prefer to use connectors that are silver plated pure copper, as opposed to some type of copper alloy, like Beryllium copper or Tellurium Copper, because of their reduced conductivity. With connectors, you are limited to the materials that are available, which tends to be a subset of what is available with wire. Then factor in the complexity of the various plating materials and processes that are available and how they also impact sound quality and selecting the right connectors to satisfy your personal sound preference becomes more challenging. But that does not mean it should not be considered
However, in the case of Interconnects - selecting something other than the KLE Innovations Harmony RCA’s will degrade their performance significantly if used on a Digital SPDIF interconnect Regards - Steve |
Given the price of the solid silver wire, I am curious what you think about you all might think about this? |
Being .999 grade of silver I would think this would not perform as well as the UP-OCC copper, which is 6-nines (6N) purity. I had previously used Mundorf solid silver with 1% gold for signal wires, but I found the 6N UP-OCC copper superior for dynamics and details. The 6N solid UP-OCC copper wire from parts connexion is exceptional The 5N solid silver UP-OCC Silver is a step up from the copper. But my personal preference is still the copper About the only way to determine its effectiveness is to try it and compare it to a known wire. You might just prefer the sound of this silver wire :-) Hope that helps |
@ williewonka & tennesseejed just my understanding of purity of wires: xN - x equals number of N (nines) 4N - 99.99% 5N - 99.999% 6N - 99.9999% May be I‘m wrong, then let me know. so the silver wire with .999 is a 5N silver. But I have compared 6N copper wires, one is a OFC and the other is a UP OCC copper. The bigger difference makes the OCC process, not if it is 5N or 6N. This is true as well for solid silver wire. The VH Audio silver wire is a 6N OCC wire and to my ears the best, but as well expensive. Have compared VH Audio solid silver 6N OCC in cotton with Neotech 6N UP-OCC in Teflon with 2x 24 AWG as IC and prefer the VH Audio. It is more natural, smoother with more micro dynamics and spacial information. |
@mawe - RE: Wire Purity..- there is one minor addition to your purity rating 99.995% is represented as 4N5.- please see this link Unfortunately I could find any mention of the purity of the VH Audo copper wire The the Parts Connexion Bare Copper wire is 6N and their Bare Silver wire is 5N - same as the VH Audio Wire Is there a discernible difference between 5N and 6N?
But you are correct in that there is a very noticeable difference between OFC and OCC copper wires in the areas of details, clarity, dynamics and image There is also a noticeable difference between Cotton insulation vs. Teflon insulation, on the exact same wire - in the areas of clarity and image So your choice of VH Audio Solid Silver Wire in Cotton is perhaps the best that can currently be achieved for an insulated wire. The AIR adaption (i.e. bare wire inside a Teflon tube) is perhaps the ultimate in wire performance, but I found it can sound a little analytical if used for both the signal and neutral wires, so I reverted back to the Silver Plated copper Mil-spec wire for the neutral conductor on my speaker cables.
My own preference is for copper - at this point in time
I have not yet had the desire to part with my hard earned cash for the solid silver wire from VH Audio - a little too rich for my budget :-) But as is said many times on Audiogon - "sound quality" is very subjective, so I encourage people to try different wires for themselves. Regards - Steve |
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So, I am not one for "Gadgets’, especially gadgets that come in really small sizes and make claims of improving sound quality, just by simply plugging them into the mains outlet But a contact assured me that this particular gadget would make a difference. I researched all the various brands that sell these gadgets and decided to try the ifi AC Purifier, simply because its description of how it works made some sense. AC iPurifier Mains Audio Noise Eliminator - iFi Audio (thecableco.com) It takes the same principle of noise cancelling headphones and applies it to the mains supply. i.e. if it detects noise it generates a signal of the same amplitude as the noise, but 180 degrees out of phase and injects it back into the power supply - therefore cancelling the noise, leaving you with no noise at all (OK very little noise at all) And guess what? - it works - at least on my system But since I have my system kitted out with Helix power cables that do much of the heavy lifting, with respect to eliminating noise , what’s left for the little gadget to do? Well turns out - not a heck of a lot - HOWEVER, what it does do is finish off what the Helix cables started - i.e. get rid of noise that is not the product of the insulation and cable geometry, that can sometimes filter through to the components of a system from the mains supply So to cut to the chase - I observed some minor improvements...
If you already have a power conditioner in the system then it would probably be of little benefit (if at all) I initially tried it on the wall outlet and did not notice any improvement, but I have a 10 ft Helix extension cable that connects to to a Distribution box and my amp, so my guess is 10 ft is too far to have any effect I plug my source components into the power distribution box, so I used a spare outlet on that box and it worked for both sources. The manual states you can employ multiple of these across your system, but to date I have only tried a single unit. I also tried it on
For the record - It did not provide an "OMG" moment on my system
Anyhow - since the Helix geometry is all about eradicating noise, I felt the ifi AC Purifier was worth a mention Happy Listening - Steve |
Transphorm Increases Noise Immunity and Reduces Switching Noise with Third Generation GaN Power Conversion Platform https://www.transphormusa.com/en/news/transphorm-increases-noise-immunity-reduces-switching-noise-third-generation-gan-power-conversion-platform/ Simply give any GaN-based USB-C wall chargers a try, IsoTek Blue Horizon was showing 710 → 254 → 129 → 091 after this particular one was thrown into the mix: https://streamable.com/9ezeba https://www.facebook.com/ho.keung.18/videos/249065390005674 Some gadgets would reduce the noise, others could go the opposite direction and IMHO that's why it's so much fun to experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmYeG5ziTi4 BTW, there's a big brother of PC-Triple C in Japan and hopefully PC-Triple C/EX would perform even better: https://www.sengoku.co.jp/mod/sgk_cart/detail.php?code=EEHD-5L3X |
PC TripleC /EX has a forged Silver Sheath onto the Wire. It is not Cheap, SAEC are charging $900 Dollars for Tag Wires. I have a length to Strip and produce Tag Wires and Tonearm Wires from. I am also hoping there is enough to use internally within the Monoblock Amp's when they are modified to become a Balanced Design. |
@ ghettocowboy my favourite XLR plugs are in order of performance: Neutrik silver plated (better resolution than gold plated, best price/performance ratio) Vampire Gold plated ( if you prefer the warmer sound of gold plated, approx $12/pcs at soniccraft or partsconnexion.) ETI Kyro silver ( if you looking for max. resolution) |
Hi. Has anyone tried these connectors? How is their quality? https://www.partsconnexion.com/AECO-88072.html |
@pumpwheel - whilst I have not tried these RCA's, I must point out that the contacts are made from
Tellurium Copper which has a lower level of IACS conductivity of 93% as opposed to pure copper as used in the KLE Innovations Harmony range, also silver plated at 101% So from that perspective the AECO ARP-4045S would not conduct the signal as well as the KLEI RCA's I first compared the Copper Harmony to the original "Eichman Silver Bullet" RCA's, which apparently had a solid silver center pin, and the Copper Harmony provided easily discernible improvements,
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@ghettocowboy : +1 what @mawe said Deltron and Switchcraft also make XLR’s with silver plated pins at a reasonable price point. I would probably stay with the Neutrik mentioned above because they literally "own this space" and on the plugs from Neutrik and Vampire I have seen/used the overall finish on the Neutrik has been a little nicer looking. Also AMPHENOL makes some nice looking plugs - take a look at this link xlr plugs silver plated pins - Search Results | Newark The ETI are clearly the "Rolls Royce" of those mentioned, but I have no idea as to the level of performance they provide Regards - Steve |
Thank you guys. I also found these XLR male/female connectors. The site says pure copper contacts not sure if the pins are pure copper or just copper plating. Have anyone tried the DH Labs XLR https://silversonic.com/products/connectors/ultimate-xlr/ |
I have not tried them and while I like DH Labs products for their value, it looks like (from reading) that the pins are not plated, just pure copper - this can lead to oxidation in the future, which will degrade signal transfer. I prefer silver plated contacts because
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The Conductor Pins on these XLR Plugs as shown in the Links are in keeping with the Wire Choices being made within this thread. There is Plating as an option to have additional protection as referred to as the preferred choice. Not a Cheap Option on OCC at £ 90 for a M/F pair. https://www.futureshop.co.uk/atlas-3-pin-occ-male-xlr-plug https://www.analogueseduction.net/xlr-plugs-attenuators-and-adaptors/atlas-all-cu-xlr-plugs.html https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174569381798?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001 |
@pindac - thanks for the links The first one is "corrosion resistant" OFC or OCC copper - no mention of plating Atlas 3 Pin OCC Male XLR Plug | Future Shop The second one has the silver plating over OCC copper pins Atlas All Cu XLR Plugs - Analogue Seduction The third one is Rhodium plate over pure copper Viborg Pure Copper Rhodium Plated XLR Connector Plug Audio balance 3pin M & F | eBay The second one would be my choice, but the others also seem a very good choice Regards - Steve |
Hello everyone. If I’ll use all silver wiring for a SE 300B tube amplifier, is that will good or bad? What are the advantages of pure silver and silver plating over pure copper? And if I make in my system all the wires and cables pure silver or silver plated (Interconnect Cables, Power Cables, Speaker Cables and Hook Up Wires), what are the advantages or disadvantages will I get? |
@pumpwheel - whilst I prefer silver plated connectors, I have found copper wire without any plating to provide the better sound quality when used for the signal conductors in the Helix Cables. WRT: copper vs silver - silver has better conductivity and therefore is able to...
The difference between bare UP-OCC copper vs. bare UP-OCC silver (inside teflon tubes) tend to depend on the system components. If they have the capability of resolving to the very highest levels, then you will hear improvements with silver. For many, the cost of silver prohibits its use for Speaker Cables and power cables and the ROI for these cables is probably less than using silver for signal wires on interconnects. It also depends on whether an individual is hell-bent on squeezing every last drop of performance out of their system (or not) - OR whether they can actually hear the difference in the first place. Of all the tweaks to the Helix design, three adaptions stood out as real winners for me
So the choice really is yours - but I strongly recommend using UP-OCC silver over other "Silver wires"
Hope that helps - Steve |
No problem... In "single ended" designed cables there is...
Hope that helps - Steve |
@wig - sorry - no experience with those. But the Furutech plugs look pretty good on paper Switchcraft also makes some nice looking mini plugs. This one seems to have silver plated pins Switchcraft TA3FX Female 3-Pin Tini-QG Mini-XLR Cable Connector (Nickel) | Performance Audio Regards - Steve |
The Link is to a Brand I have not discovered in past searches. That is the benefit of doing a search, the Robots throw other unknown products into the line up. This Brand also does Mini XLR but I could not make out the lead out pin materials. The one in the Link is looking likely that it is a Gold Plated Copper, as the specification refers to plating materials and Metals, where Gold and Copper are listed. What is very evident is that these are very competitively priced. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001458223192.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.5.4b3070d7a2biQ1&... |
Interconnects I better get this question in before the thread goes completely dormant. Steve, Grannyring, et all; I’m kinda in the middle of my project utilizing bare wires in tubes. I’m re-doing my return wires because they were also in tubes and like Grannyring said, I think I lost some of my warmth. My question involves the primary wires. I have long been an enjoyer of the Schroeder Double Method of interconnect wiring. I am currently changing the 3 long wires in my system, an 11 footer and two 8 footers. I started with OCC6N 18 gauge bare copper from Parts Connexion. For the second wire in the Double Method I also tried using 20 gauge and 22 gauge. Unfortunately, Parts Connexion doesn’t sell OCC wire in 22 gauge so I tried some 22 gauge OFC 4N copper for that. I tried the 20 gauge running with the 18 gauge Double Method and also ran the 22 gauge with the 18. The 18 plus the 20 sounded OK, but when I ran the with the 22 gauge I heard a nice warm bloom to the upper frequencies. Unfortunately, the 22 also added a little harshness back to the vocals which I find to be very annoying. At this point I can’t tell if it’s the smaller size wire that introduces the harshness back, or if it’s because the wire is OFC 4N not OCC 6N. Parts Connection doesn’t/won’t stock 22 gauge (I asked), so I might like to try 24 gauge OOC to see if that works. My question involves multiple strands in one tube. Steve, you recently went back to a single wire in a tube for 18 gauge interconnects rather than two wires. Any sonic reason? I might try two or three 24 gauge wires in a tube unless it’s generally thought that multiple wires would reduce SQ. any thoughts? Thanks, Tim |
The idea of using differing purities of wire and wire production methods for the Signal Path is carried out by Audio Technica on their recent Rexat Cables. Trying different configurations of Wires and Gauges as you are doing could prove to be the method to get a presentation throughout the frequencies that is to ones preference. I think this thread will always reignite, there is too much of good vibes contained within it to be overlooked. |
@toolbox149 - I tried the two wires in a single tube first because from what I had read there should have been little difference. But changing to having each wire in it’s own tube provided better details dynamics and clarity, so that is now my standard configuration. For the neutral wires I still only use
Since the neutral is so long (i.e. expensive) I prefer to save a little money vs, the slight improvement in performance that using a double neutral provides. I based this on my observation of the Interconnects. I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that the speakers cables and power cables have a similar small ROI But if you would like to achieve the best possible result I would recommend a double neutral also. I have tried 4 wires for the live in a power cable and it provided no additional benefits over two wires, so I stay with two wires for all cables OFC 4N is probably the reason for the harshness, because the OCC process provides a much smooth signal transfer, regardless of purity i.e. 4N vs 6N Hope that helps |
