I have been an avid user of the Duelund cabling for
over two years now and have used them exclusively in my system with great
results. I have built many for friends and have used a full loom of
interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and an extensive wiring modification
for a previously owned balanced power conditioner utilizing Duelund 600V PolyCast
wiring which was transformative. My cabling desires can be a little addictive
as I have owned and evaluated 40+ brands of cabling costing more than an entire
stereo system!
Over the past six months I stumbled upon a thread here
on Audiogon in regards to a Helix designed cabling and as you probably already
know, I just had to look a little deeper into this cable design…After a month
of studying and sourcing parts, I decided to reach out to the
designer/architect, Williewonka who gave more insights and philosophy on how
the cable came into existence.
That conversation got the ball rolling in converting
one of my KLE Duelund interconnects to Steve’s Helix designed which only entailed
replacing the neutral with a Mil-Spec 16 AWG silver-plated copper wire with the
neural wire being 3 times longer than the signal wire and of course the “Coiling”
of the neutral wire : )
After the modification was complete, I was not sure
what to expect from the Helix cabling but I was quite shocked with the results
with “ZERO” burn-in time…The sound stage became much wider/deeper with a much
tighter/focused image and clarity/transparency is like nothing I have ever
heard in any cabling regardless of cost. In fact, I just sold a full loom of a commercially
designed Helix Cable that’s renowned around the world and has more direct sale
than any cable manufacturer; these $200 DIY Helix Cables walked all over them…
I believe you will hear the same results as I have and
have heard back from friends who have already modified their Duelunds with the
same results; WOW! Remember the cables will need 200+ hours to burn-in and
settle into your system. My system is now 90% DIY Helix to include IC, SC, PC
and Coax with each cabling adding its beauty of an organic and natural
presentation that draws you into the fabric of the music.
You can tailor the sound of your cables using Duelund,
Mundorf silver/1% gold, the outstanding Vh Audio OCC Solid Copper or Silver with Airlok
Insulation or your favorite wiring and you can change it at any time…
Thank you so much for a very detailed answer and the additional afterthoughts.
I’m in agreement with you regarding the importance of best conductors for the lowest, most fragile signals, which is also the reason why, I will try out the conversion from UP-OCC Cu to UP-OCC silver on my phono cables to test how it sounds on my setup.
Early in the process I did try the Duelund silver cable, but that proved unsuccessful. Due to the gains in sound quality in general using Neotech solid Cu wire, I will give the silver wire from Neotech a try.
@mbolekYou are en route and I am looking forward to reading your feedback about what you are perceiving.
@williewonkaYour descriptions on the Cable Types and function is making a lot of sense.
Since I have dropped my barriers against Cables and their effects being a fantasy, I have made it my goal to find away to understand how a Cable construction can influence the sound.
After Capacitance and Methods to Screen out Interference, Lower S/N then the types of Wire used start to appear, and then configurations for the wire in use.
With a basic understanding of the above, I stumbled onto the Helix Thread and found myself inspired and most importantly willing to participate, which is now to the point, I have the Wires of choice to commence.
Whilst gathering information and making inquiries to more educated individuals about the importance of some of the electronic considerations for the selection of wires and a Cable Design.
I learnt of a few other things to consider, and that was the importance of the Connectors in use and whether the wire to be used for a Cable can commence its route within the device itself.
Making a decision about a wire within a device is reasonably easy if it is out of warranty and the circuitry design lends itself to the method to exchange.
This has already been agreed to be carried out on my Power Amp's when converted to Balanced and Single Ended, the New Pre Amp is to have my wire choices used from the off.
The connectors used for Single Ended Signal Paths, both connector types, Chassis Mounted and Cable Attached are more of a challenge.
I have been informed by an individual who has used many Brands Connectors to produce cables, with Connectors across a range of differing purchase prices to produce Cables or exchange Connectors on bought in Cables.
That there are variables in measurements regularly being discovered when testing certain Brands and some of the most varied fluctuations are able to be seen on Brands that are sought after for their reported qualities.
The same person has informed me that the Chassis Mounted Connectors can have a very noticeable impact on the sound, and the ones that are Pure Copper with the minimum materials used to produce the part, has in their view the most impressive impact on the sound quality. The attribute is described as not only being down to the material used but also the mass of the part, as there are less residual signal retained that can be detected as smearing when the signal completes the path.
With the above in mind, is there a possibility that a little more could be extracted, if a thought process was put in place, focusing on how to provide a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.
a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.
The short answer is...
Anything is possible!
However -
getting it accepted across the entire audio industry would be one challenge
and then getting it accepted by the audiophile masses would be the final hurdle
The net result of both of these...
it will not happen in my lifetime !
But all is not lost - there are basically four generally accepted connectors within the industry (worldwide) at present
XLR - extremely robust and multi-purpose
RCA - the most commonly used and multi-purpose
BNC - digital only
DIN - more specialty (e.g. turntable cables) but more widely used in europe
The connector having the highest mass of all of these is the RCA, but that is changing...
there are now several brands that offer low mass RCA versions
ETI, KLE Innovations etc..
KLE Innovations now have low mass versions of
Banana plugs
RCA plugs and sockets
speaker/amp terminals
And similalry there are now companies that offer conncetors with pure copper pins in a variety of platings.
It’s just a matter of time - for these materials/designs to become more generally accepted by the component manufacturers.
Also - you have to realize that
the percentage of audiophiles willing to go to "extremes" to achieve better sound is very small compared to the general audiophile populous
but the various components are designed to sell to everyone
Being aware of the many realizations you mentioned above, you are now in the 0.1% of audiophiles that see the benefits of the science.
But catering to that 0.1% does not sell product
printed circuit board designs are "the norm" these days
because they bring down the cost of manufacturing
so it makes changing sockets extremely difficult
and manufacturers build products to a price point and select parts that work, but not necessarily "work well"
There are some tube amps that do still choose point-to-point wiring
which makes replacing sockets very easy
The most extreme route I have heard of is to hard wire all of your cables
So - the net of all of this is...
YOU now have the knowledge to make the best possible selections
Everyone is constrained by poor design & build choices in most of the products out there unfortunately
However - WE have the knowledge and abilities to minimize the impact of those poor design & build choices.
There is some hope
Some cable designs now coming onto the market, incorporate many advanced materials, low mass connectors and cable geometries, that result in exceptional results.
This will "rub off" onto the component maufacturers over time
So I am hopeful that advances in thie area will continue
The MPT Pure Copper Male RCA Plugs and WBT - Nextgen - Chassis Mounted Female sockets are the connectors I will have on a shortlist for any future Single Ended Interfaces.
I already own Aeco Pure Silver Plugs, so I can do an A/B evaluation when the time arises.
When in discussions, the descriptions offered in favour of the MPT > WBT parts when used coupled together, are the ones claimed to be producing quite noticeable improvements, and enough to no longer use other highly regarded parts used for umbilical connections.
The investigation into the above pairing of connector parts, is an option for others who are interested in this design of Cable.
As stated earlier, for some who do share the interest, the Chassis Mounted Socket might prove to be a little difficult to consider as a exchange part.
I am still working with the XLR options but at present, the Atlas Plug on the Cable is looking the most likely.
The Chassis Mount options are very limited as well, when pure metals are the wanted materials.
I did a rough implementation of the Helix speaker wires to test out the geometry and liked the results. I am now looking to build a Helix power cord and single ended interconnects with the materials in the recipe, and before buying the materials I wanted to check if Helix power cords and interconnects a good choice for SETs?
@lewinskih01 - assuming you mean Single Ended Triode amps...
To my knowledge - Cables using the Helix design do not perform well under the following circumstances...
Helix Speaker cables
when connceting to Amplifiers that are designed using a symetric balanced output architecture
where the speaker terminals have the same output signals, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
Helix Power cables
when connecting to power sources that provide only a balanced output
i.e. where the "live" and the "neutral" have the same voltage, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
such as some power conditioners and power regenration units
the Power Grid in Norway is fully balanced
The electrical "spec’s" of the Helix cables are "middle of the road" for capacitance and inductance values, so they are suited to a wide variety of amplifiers and speakers
Other than in the two cases mentioned above, I do not see any reason why he cables would not perform extremely well,
and since you have already protyped a Helix cable and achieved promising results, I see no reason for not proceeding.
The latest adaption usin solid UP-OCC silver wire for the interconnect signal wires should prove to be an excellent cable for your SET amp
Thank you Steve! Indeed I meant single ended triodes.
Great input, and food for thought. I do have a balanced power conditioner, so will build one PC and try connecting the SET straight into the wall. Now I know I should look for alternative architectures for the power cords feeding the other components.
@williewonkaWell, your conversation in regard to using balanced power conditioners with the Helix PC caught my attention. I'm presently using Helix non-symmetrical with both my dac and active pre on BPT 3.5 Sig. balanced power conditioner. These using VH Audio Airlock on live and Take 5 Milspec for neutral. I've never given a thought to using asymmetrical Helix PC, what now seems so obvious totally eluded me till now. So, now I get to build symmetrical Helix PC to compare with present Helix.
What is your favorite recipe for a balanced Helix PC? My present Helix run 3 strands of Airlock with relaxed twist for hot, two runs of Take Five with tight twist around the Airlock for neutral. Assuming I want to keep three Airlock with relaxed twist for hot, how do construct Airlock for neutral?
@sns and @lewinskih01 - Interestingly enough, another member has just built a balanced power cable and he likes what he hears.
Basically, you have identical live and neutral conductors inside the helix coil, where the helix coil is the ground wire
Both live and ground conductors could be formed from 2 x 16 or 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC bare wires, where each wire is inside a teflon tube
I would use a reverse twist on one of the conductors to mitigate some of the induction process e.g.
Live conductor would twist clockwise
Neutral conductor would twist anti-clockwise
Use a relaxed twist - i.e. one complete twist every 3"-4"
the 2 x 18 gauge live and neutral conductors should easily fit inside a helix coil made with a 5/16" rod,
but I am not sure about the 2 x 16 gauge version - it might
If your amp requires a large current draw then use 2 x 14 gauge wires
or alternately you could use the 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC wire from VH Audio with the Airlok inuskation for the Live and Neutral
but using this method I would insert each twisted pair of conductors insitde a cotton sleeve to add some space between them
For both versions I would use a double coil ground conductor made from 2 x 14 gauge.. I think this would provide a better faraday cage effect to shield the Live and Neutral condctors
Personally - I would opt for #1, but #2 is a little easier to fabricate and the difference in performance would be small
Would it bs as good as the asymmetrical Helix PC used with a normal house supply?
I do not think so because you still have the two conductors laying side by side, but the reverse twist on one conductor should help
but using UP-OCC copper inside the teflon tubes will certainly sound much better than most branded products
The key here is that you are using UP-OCC copper and if you use the teflon tube as the insulation then the impact of distortions from the insulation is minimized
If DIY is not an option then I would highy recommend Zavfino cables - they aill work very well with balanced power supplies and they use UP-OCC wires
hello everyone, this is my first post here on the forum. I have been watching the helix topic for a long time is a great project. I already have power cables in the helix geometry, now I would like to try the helix geometry for the USB cable and hence my question is whether a double wiring configuration in separate fep tubes for d- and d + can be used for usb. I hope I explained it well. sorry for my english is not even sufficient
@mbolekThe Threads been quiet for a while, I have a question for you.
Did you receive your PC CCC Wire Order?
If yes, has it been used and you have formed an assessment of it.
I have now been able to have been demonstrated the wire in use, from Source to Speaker on a friends system who I introduced to the wire.
The Vinyl LP as a Source on my friends system, now has developed to the wire being in use as an internal Tonearm Cable, Interconnects with Selected Low Eddy Connections on the Cables and Phonostage Chassis, Internal Phonostage Hook Up wire and the Power Cord, the Speaker Cables are also using the same wire.
This is a system I am very familiar with, and when presented as the system owner had wanted it to be heard, it was without doubt, the best I have ever heard this system.
I was gobsmacked at how a Cable that sounded very good when demonstrated, was shown to be presenting as quite inferior when compared to the same Cable ng with a different RCA Connector, especially a RCA selected for the Low Eddy Properties. This is indescribable and is needed to be experienced.
When the exchanges were carried out, the Low Eddy Signal Path was able to present Notes and Vocals with a Envelope Shaping, in a manner I don't ever recall being able to perceive.
The system owner has also made it known, the wire has created such a positive impression, if the wire could be discovered to be purchased in a gauge to suit a MC Coil, they would send a Ortofon Cart' away as a Donor Cart', to a rebuild service, to have the Aucurum Wire replaced with it. That is quite a serious move toward this wire type in anybody's assessment.
The wire is available in very fine gauge 0.03mm as a Screening Mesh, but is only found in assembled cables, a 0.18mm is the finest I know of in a stranded wire.
Let's say you're using double solid core hot leads and double stranded grounds. What direction should the hot pairs be twisted and what direction should the grounds be twisted around them?
I have not received my AR CCC bulk wire. I ordered fromjapan. We'll see if it ever shows up.
As an EE, I do like some of your terminology (Eddy properties). Not an analog/vinyl person, so my only interest in these cables will be an XLR connection from a streamer to amp. Maybe a speaker cable...
good question...I would say that the positive/line conductor should be twisted in the opposite direction of the negative/return conductors. Basic current flow...
@mbolekIt took almost six months for a package to arrive that I purchased from Australia, there may be a pleasant surprise turn up.
I do believe that a XLR is a low mass connector and the Eddy Effect is reduced due to this.
As you are an EE, the discussion seen in an old thread I have seen, where a method is proposed for producing connections that are said to be Low Mass.
The Link will show the discussions and selected parts for producing the method from the era, there may be a variant as an option today.
I am without doubt the improved impact on what I was experiencing is due to the choices made for the connection.
This was not a veil had been lifted moment, each Cable was appearing equal in Soundstage Depth and Width, and how a insight to a recording was being perceived, each Cable was able to deliver with a very similar presentation for the overall performance.
The difference was how the Note and Vocal took on a Shaping of the Envelope, the Cable with the Low Eddy RCA Termination, when connected to the Low Eddy RCA chassis mount connector showed a substantial and notable improvement in this area of the presentation.
Does having the CCC Wire running through the Analogue Source Signal Path contribute to the effect, I can not say, but it does contribute to the perceived purity that is present in comparison to other used signal wires.
Is the double/double still a good design? I have VH Audio 18 awg AirLok UP OCC for the signal and Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire Red Cryo Treated from Take Five Audio for the return.
This double/double helix cable will replace the IC between my DAC and preamp. The current cable is made from a twisted pair of Duelund DCA16GA and Pure Harmonies. The double/double helix will use Absolute Harmonies. I hope there's an improvement.
Has anyone experimented with the distance between the signal wires and the coil for ICs? I just made a pair of double/double ICs, and with one layer of cotton sleeve around the signal wires, it's very tight in the coil. There is no movement whatsoever and it was very difficult to get in the coil. The wires definitely aren't moving relative to each other, which I think is a good thing.
That's pretty much what I settled on, although I added a little time due to the gauge of the double/double.
While building these cables, which is about the 4th set of cables I have made using KLE RCAs, I finally found a pretty good method of terminating them.
I tinned the wires after twisting them together and then filed the end of the tinned wires into a male point with a taper that matched that of the female "V" of the KLE tabs. I then tinned the bare part of the wires that were filed as well as the "V" on the RCA. Then, I used my soldering "helping hands" to hold both pieces and used the arms of the helping hands to apply pressure to the pieces, pushing them together, and then soldered as usual. I feel that applying pressure pushes the wire into contact with the "V" during soldering, making the two parts physically touch each other, resulting in a better connection.
are your referring to the rwo stranded live and neutral wires
or the bare wire inside teflon tube ?
I was referring to the first one. Two stranded L/N wires.
Also with speaker cables. I used to always twist in the same direction. Tried several with opposite twist and continue to do this now. Can't confirm that is does make a difference...
@mbolek The Threads been quiet for a while, I have a question for you.
Did you receive your PC CCC Wire Order?
If yes, has it been used and you have formed an assessment of it.
I have now been able to have been demonstrated the wire in use, from Source to Speaker on a friends system who I introduced to the wire.
The Vinyl LP as a Source on my friends system, now has developed to the wire being in use as an internal Tonearm Cable, Interconnects with Selected Low Eddy Connections on the Cables and Phonostage Chassis, Internal Phonostage Hook Up wire and the Power Cord, the Speaker Cables are also using the same wire.
This is a system I am very familiar with, and when presented as the system owner had wanted it to be heard, it was without doubt, the best I have ever heard this system.
I was gobsmacked at how a Cable that sounded very good when demonstrated, was shown to be presenting as quite inferior when compared to the same Cable ng with a different RCA Connector, especially a RCA selected for the Low Eddy Properties. This is indescribable and is needed to be experienced.
When the exchanges were carried out, the Low Eddy Signal Path was able to present Notes and Vocals with a Envelope Shaping, in a manner I don't ever recall being able to perceive.
The system owner has also made it known, the wire has created such a positive impression, if the wire could be discovered to be purchased in a gauge to suit a MC Coil, they would send a Ortofon Cart' away as a Donor Cart', to a rebuild service, to have the Aucurum Wire replaced with it. That is quite a serious move toward this wire type in anybody's assessment.
The wire is available in very fine gauge 0.03mm as a Screening Mesh, but is only found in assembled cables, a 0.18mm is the finest I know of in a stranded wire.
Finally received the Acoustic Revive PC CCC. I'll look at building a Helix based XLR and see how it compares to one of Steve's variations. I don't think I strip off the insulation and just pull the conductors apart and do a simple twist for +/- signal. Ground using the Helix wrap. Will use AECO XLRs.
Each conductor is 19awg, so don't know if this one would be a good candidate for speaker cables.
I'm very happy with a pair of Helix Image Air RCA interconnects (per the recipe, except XLRs on one end) and power cable. Both connected into my 45-type single-ended triode amp. The PC is connected to the wall (with Oyaide recptacle), while the previous PC was connected into my balanced power conditioner. Both Helixes have been broken in enough hours to "sound good" per @williewonkaindications above, and indeed they sound good. Definitely keepers!
I'm now considering the speaker cables and wanted to ask if there are any active DIY speaker owners here using Helix speaker cables and what's your experience between running the Helix cables right into the driver connectors vs running them to binding posts and what internal wiring you use? Helix geometry or regular? Maybe it doesn't make a difference.
and what internal wiring you use? Helix geometry or regular? Maybe it doesn’t make a difference.
Others have told me that using the hElix geometry on any type of connection will improve sound quality i.e.
for signal transfer i.e. internal connection involving a +ve and neutral wire
for internal power supply connections
one guy rewired all of his internal AC wiring using the Helix geometry in his components
WRT internal wiring of speakers - provided the SIGNAL and NEUTRAL wires are seperated by at leat one inch of space I do not think the Helix geometry is required
but would still use the "Air" approach for the wires
Air is - solid wire inside larger diameter teflon tube
Hello there. I need 12 feet of 12 AWG silver wire for the Helix interconnects i’m making. Parts Connexion offers two alternatives that differ wildly in price:
As I continue to convert into Helix I am now looking to replace the current Helix speaker cables built with commodity PVC/stranded cable with proper materials for the tweeter cables: from a 2W 45-type SET amp directly into AMT tweeters. I'm thinking smaller gauge materials would be fine, but wanted to check in here before I spend $1k on materials.
I'm planning to buy: 2x 18 AWG (instead of 2x16) solid UP-OCC bare copper wire in PTFE tubbing for signal, and 14 AWG (instead of 12 AWG) stranded UP-OCC with PTFE insulation for neutral. My thinking is the small current for the tweeters shouldn't benefit much for increased diameters. Good idea?
Can I use a smaller diameter fiberglass rod for an overall smaller diameter cable?
Double 18 AWG in teflon tubing for speaker cables was a real upgrade to my ears but not until I have swapped the KLE bananas plugs for some rolled berylium copper gold plated ones. The KLE were not compatible with my Bryston 4B amp. While I love KLE RCA connectors, their bananas plugs were too short and didn’t made proper contact due to their lack of stiffness. The new plugs were crimped and then soldered with Mundorf Silver/Gold solder.
I have an extra set of 8 new KLE banana plugs if someone needs it. The used plugs can also go as well. PM me if you are interested.
@norco74 - I would pass on that feedback to KLE Innovations - they do make changes if there is a valid case for an upgrade.
They may not change the existing model, but they may introduce an upgraded product to their lineup, specifically for amps like yours
I have a Byrston B135 and had a similar problem, so I ground a little bit off of the plastic insulator, at the point where the metal comes out,, which made for a much better seating of the plug
Unforutnaltely, there is no standard for the length of the contact point, which can be problemeatic in some instances
@mbolekThank You for being a Pioneer for using the PC CCC as a Helix Geometry.
SAEC SL-5000 might be the closest Wire 'off the Shelf' to come close to this configuration.
I have waited in great anticipation for your report of usage and am quite pleased there are perceptions of improvements already detected. From experience I feel confident this will be built upon, as the real differences come to light when comparing to OCC Wire.
@pindacAfter reading through some to the cable description, AR seems like they prefer that the conductors are run in parallel. May have to try another version with this config and leaving their insulation intact.
This is great news, that there is enough happening to already see if a little more can be extracted.
As said previously, the SPV-AV Triple C, was the Cable I had to give a Burn In Period.
Initially a short period was required to experience a gathered presentation.
After a Short Period of use and a A/B Comparison with the Cable it was replacing, it had already shown it was a alternative presentation.
After a revisit to A/B with approx' 1 Month of usage, the original used Cable was not in with a chance anymore.
I would suggest to stick with your creation for an extended period and get quite familiar, with what is on offer.
Individuals I have introduced this Wire to through demonstration. Now Have this Wire as a Internal Tonearm Wire, Interconnects, Internal Wiring in Phonostage and Pr-Amp, Speaker and Power Cables.
They have even gone to the expense of SAEC SL-5000
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