Does raising speaker cables off the floor really make a big difference?
I experimented with using beer cans as cable risers. I would drink a beer then used the empty can as a riser. And guess what? By the time I finished it worked.Good idea. It works better than cable risers. After my beer post, it actually turned some people into poet. Geofkait cried. prof admits the truth. Who said beers don't work! |
I use Ace Hardware rebar chairs. $4.99 for 20. You're welcome! https://www.acehardware.com/departments/building-supplies/walls-floors-and-ceiling/joist-hangers/561... |
Bimmermann Outstanding..........I will admit I am a speaker riser skeptic but for an $5 tweak (for two systems) I guess I will have speaker risers now. Looks like they will fit 1/2 inch cables nicely. My Ace hardware didn’t have them but the same brand is in stock at my local Home Depot for $3.25 for 20. Next time I drive by I will have to pick some up. I guess we can finally close this thread. Believer or non believer just spend $3.25 and be done with it...........Unless of course till someone says you need an exotic riser made out of Mpingo wood (at $500 each) or it doesn’t work. It will be interesting to see who will say that first. |
$4.99 for 20???!?!?! Total ripoff! $1.79 for 25! https://www.acehardware.com/departments/building-supplies/gates-and-fences/electric-fence-parts/7191... |
Fellow audiophiles, if you have crummy synthetic carpet, like I do, this is a no-brainer. Around this time of year I shock the hell out of my finger touching anything metallic so I can only imagine what my cables are subjected to. CD after CD have the clearest and cleanest presentation. Ever. I ordered some of those Ikea tea light holders from Ikea and am getting 12 for $11 and change, delivered. With the extra holders, I’m going to elevate my power cables as well. What the hell: I’ll see if even that has a positive effect. If not, it’ll sure look nicer. This has got to be the cheapest tweaks I’ve encountered in quite a while. I now have no desire to get a power conditioner, like the Niagara 1200 or the Puritan PM-156. Now that’s some money saved. Maybe I’ll buy a decent dress watch with the savings, like a Stowa Antea or something like it. All the best, Nonoise |
delkal wrote " I experimented with using beer cans as cable risers. I would drink a beer then used the empty can as a riser. And guess what? By the time I finished it worked." We must think alike, I did the same thing, next step is to use Foster's 25oz cans, I know I know a bit more expensive but it really ups the game! |
@nonoise RE:... I ordered some of those Ikea tea light holders from Ikea and am getting 12 for $11I like your style - I went to the Dollar Store and bought a couple of sets of children’s wooden Alphabet blocks - $6 for two sets of 15 blocks. - I stuck some craft sticks on the sides to stop the cables sliding off - an additional $3 - And a 2" tile from a bathroom project as the base - just to stabilize them - worked like a charm I didn’t know if it would do anything positive but as it turns out - one of my cheapest tweaks to date - that worked :-) Regards - Steve |
This is so called "snake oil" stuff putting soap in your searching ears and attempting to grab your wallet. The MOST important part of any home listening experience is - without a single doubt - acoustic treatment of where we listen to music.It can be achieved with surprisingly minimal expense ! Exempli gratia - an immense improvement I made to my listening room was to hang 12 x 5 Euros umbrellas hanging closely to my 50 sq metre ceillng filled with BAF wadding, ( copied from Sydney Opera House and the Royal Albert Hall ). Their treatments which are not - nota bene - cheap Chinese umbrellas, no doubt whatsoever cost them really big bucks. Enjoy the music ! Good wishes. |
Just because people swear they hear something, or see something for that matter, does not make it so. The only thing you might hear by moving cables around-- lifting them off the floor or putting them on the floor for that matter-- is if there was noise or interference increasing or decreasing due to their LOCATION in relation to other cables and gear. If you already have a quiet system without a lot of hum or buzz, and you raise the cables a few inches off the floor and there is no increase or decrease in background noise, buzz, or whatever, then anything else you're hearing is in your head. You are hearing something-- it just has nothing to do with those $3,000 a piece ebony cable risers that were cryonicly aligned and blessed by a Tibetan Monk. Audiophiles believe in a lot of tweaks like this-- like painting the edges of CD's with green sharpies or whatever-- you may hear something-- you are in fact hearing nothing-- your mind has done the rest-- it is, in fact, all in your head. But hey, if that makes the music sound better to you then go for it. The placebo effect is very powerful-- that's why giving people sugar pills and telling them it's medicine will often make them feel (at least temporarily) better. What sucks are the people that peddle this stuff for "stupid money" prices while making all manner of empty claims (subliminal mental suggestions in this case) that are complete and total BS. That really sucks. |
Just because people write something, it does not make it so..... This constant siren call of insanity on the part of the listener is growing old and stale. No amount of sophistry or wordsmanship can mask the emptiness of their arguments. The concept of lifting cables goes way back. I remember when it wasn't considered necessary for natural wood floors or for those who use natural fibers in their rugs. It was never a big deal until some unscrupulous folk started selling ridiculously priced gear to raise the cables. 'nuff said about that as it can be done on the cheap and it doesn't hurt to try. Like I said before, I didn't hear much of a difference 25 years ago but my gear back then wasn't anywhere near as resolving as it is now. It was on a lark that I tried it, thanks to this thread, and I'm all the better for it. No biggie. Get over it folks. All the best, Nonoise |
There's one tweak I like but I am NOT making any recommendations here. It's called "Finyl"- you spray it (lightly) on your CD's and rub it gently to dry with a microfiber cloth (included). It's supposed to help the laser read the disc better, but it does polish the playing surface a bit. Supposedly you only need to use it once. I "think" it works, but it certainly does no harm- not like Armor-All- remember Stereophile's big discovery?! My cables are huge and heavy- just getting them to stay put on what they're connected to is tough enough. I even custom-ordered banana plugs for my Italian speakers, but the measurements are slightly off, so I wasn't able to insert them fully into the holes provided. I don't want to rain on anyone else's parade here, but High End Audio presents some exasperating challenges before you even get to sit down and listen. But my main objective is to get the best engineered recordings you can find First, no matter what your system looks like. |
@wyoboy, Understood: she who must be obeyed.... If all goes well, I'll be getting mine on Monday. I have no reason to think they'd work any better than what I'm using now, but they will look a heck of a lot better, and maybe, there'll be some more improvement once I move all my cables off the floor. Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year to you sir, All the best, Nonoise |
Has anyone calculated what difference such things done to make cables unreasonably expensive makes? Let us take an example. Many cable manufacturers warn us of high frequency rolloff caused by skin effect. They make cables like ribbons or bundle them in litz configuration where each strand of wire in individually insulated so every conductor is too thin to be affected by skin effect. But here is some physical calculation of how much rolloff can be expected with 8 gauge speaker wires in series with a 4 Ohm speaker. (I use magnetic planar speakers which do not vary in their reactance the way dynamic drivers do.) Skin effect will cause 4 meters of 8 gauge wire to have a resistance of 0.0164 Ohms at 20 kHz compared to a DC resistance of 0.00842 Ohms where more current can go through the center of the wire. Put this in series with 4 Ohms and calculate the difference between 4.0164 and 4.00842. Take the ratio and the log of this ratio times 20 and the skin effect attenuates the signal less than 1/200 dB. That is why I am a little suspicious of over-priced cables and the questionable physics describing why you need them. The placebo effect is another matter which does not help. That is why I think blind testing should be used more often. Can the dielectric effect of the floor on a cable induce a large enough fraction of a micro-volt to hear in the speakers? I do not claim some things could never make a difference one can hear but let the claims be reasonable. . |
That is why I think blind testing should be used more often. Can the dielectric effect of the floor on a cable induce a large enough fraction of a micro-volt to hear in the speakers? I do not claim some things could never make a difference one can hear but let the claims be reasonable.I understand where you’re coming from. The proof is in the pudding. And that’s what you’re hearing and that’s where the buck stops. Why cables are so expensive? I don’t understand the cable manufacturing process so I don’t understand why myself. I suspect it has something to do with mass production (or lack of) - that is they probably don’t sell enough so they have to increase the price to make a profit. Although I am not in the cable business, I do know a bit into high end test equipment such as those costing close to $70K per unit such as those coming from KeySight (formerly known as Agilent which formerly known as Hewlett Packard). Each unit is hand calibrated before it is shipped to the customer. If every single $300 dollar receiver from Best Buy has to be hand-calibrated, they probably won’t be in the business for long (I’ve heard that YBA designer Yves Bernard André listened to (or used to) to every single amp personally before they were shipped to the customer). Having said all that, I don’t understand why some cables are so expensive. Is it all BS? Maybe some days I find out - BS or not lols. I'll end with this quote: "Extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" by Carl Sagan |
I have a question. Those of you who call things like cable risers snake oil and BS, what do you call amplifiers costing tons of money based on super heavy chassis? The chassis obviously closes in the soundstage. So does having big transformers next to sensitive electronic parts qualify as BS? What about metal chassis period? And what about crossovers? You do know the reason you use crossovers is (excluding sub) to fix driver cabinet flaws. You guys playing the snake oil/BS cards probably have several audio scams in your systems right now yet you choose to pick on something as simple as risers to spout off about. I chuckle at your lack of understanding the very hobby you have bought your way into. pretty funny stuff, a little weird funny to be honest mg |
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drbarney Has anyone calculated what difference such things done to make cables unreasonably expensive makes? Let us take an example. Many cable manufacturers warn us of high frequency rolloff caused by skin effect. They make cables like ribbons or bundle them in litz configuration where each strand of wire in individually insulated so every conductor is too thin to be affected by skin effect. But here is some physical calculation of how much rolloff can be expected with 8 gauge speaker wires in series with a 4 Ohm speaker. (I use magnetic planar speakers which do not vary in their reactance the way dynamic drivers do.) Skin effect will cause 4 meters of 8 gauge wire to have a resistance of 0.0164 Ohms at 20 kHz compared to a DC resistance of 0.00842 Ohms where more current can go through the center of the wire. Put this in series with 4 Ohms and calculate the difference between 4.0164 and 4.00842. Take the ratio and the log of this ratio times 20 and the skin effect attenuates the signal less than 1/200 dB. That is why I am a little suspicious of over-priced cables and the questionable physics describing why you need them. The placebo effect is another matter which does not help. That is why I think blind testing should be used more often. Can the dielectric effect of the floor on a cable induce a large enough fraction of a micro-volt to hear in the speakers? I do not claim some things could never make a difference one can hear but let the claims be reasonable. >>>>While those are interesting points no one is saying that skin effect OR a change to dielectric characteristics is responsible for the degradation of the signal when cables are lying directly on the carpet or floor. The consensus is that the degradation is caused by static electric charges and/or structureborne vibration. |
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What sucks are the people that peddle this stuff for "stupid money"
prices while making all manner of empty claims (subliminal mental
suggestions in this case) that are complete and total BS. That really
sucks
" GK my hat is off to you for being an entrepreneur and recognizing a fool will soon be parted from his money and why not help him and put it in your pocket. They abound here at AG so farm your field. " That is why I am a little suspicious of over-priced cables and the questionable physics describing why you need them. The placebo effect is another matter which does not help. " True words and if people insist on being idiots and unable to use logic take their money. Zip cord works fine for me and Heaven forbid sometimes it might even have a loop in it. Can the sharpie you use for CD's be treated in some way to improve things before use?:D |
"The chassis obviously closes in the sound stage"? ... huh? The only thing that is obvious is that this is a claim with no merit or factual basis. Do those big transformers have closed magnetic paths and cover shields? michaelgreenaudio1,009 posts12-22-2019 4:22am |
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Not a disbeliever OR a believer. I like posting this link link now and then when this subject on speaker cable pops up. Food for thought. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#conditioner |
I've read his stuff before and after rereading his passage on cable risers, he offers nothing but his opinion that it doesn't matter, along with some pictures. Not any different than if he would have posted it here. A lot of the negative bashing seems to be wholly rote in nature, like a knee jerk response. All the best, Nonoise |
@drbarney1 - RE:... That is why I am a little suspicious of over-priced cables and the questionable physics describing why you need them. The only proven method to gauge the effectiveness of a cable is to try them. But the good news is - there are some very good cables to be had out there. Here are some general design points that I have found contribute to good cable performance:... - conductor material - high quality copper, silver plated copper and solid silver :- insulation type ----- Teflon is OK, ----- "foamed" variants are generally better ---- cotton is very good- e.g Duelund wire with cotton/oil insulation is amazing :- conductor gauge... ---- cables with a larger neutral generally provides better performance ---- larger gauge cables does not always provide superior performance :- cable geometry ----- I use a helix geometry - like the Anticables IC’s ----- ribbon geometries as used on Nordost speaker cables are also very good. ---- braiding as with Kimber Kable generally offer better performance than parallel wires, but beware of high capacitance in braided speaker wires Hope that throws some light on a very complicated topic Regards - Steve |
tablejockey Not a disbeliever OR a believer. I like posting this link link now and then when this subject on speaker cable pops up. Food for thought. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#conditioner >>>>Roger Russell’s mindset was more prevalent back in the 80s and 90s but I would imagine these days it’s pretty irrelevant and passé. Yes, I know what you’re thinking - “but there’s a lot of guys like Roger right here on these threads.” No offense to you or Roger but too much has happened already to have any wish to put the genie 🧞♂️ back in the bottle. |
It seems like the believers are having an upper hands at the moment. The snake oil camp is having a break. Sort of like the bulls vs. bears on the stock market. Hey, maybe this thread is good for stock picking. I need to find a correlation. So market up if believers in charge, market down if snake oil camp in charge lols. You guys playing the snake oil/BS cards probably have several audio scams in your systems right now yet you choose to pick on something as simple as risers to spout off about. I chuckle at your lack of understanding the very hobby you have bought your way into.Not saying to agree or disagree. But I'll end with this quote as previously. "Extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.". |
andy2 Not saying to agree or disagree. But I’ll end with this quote as previously. "Extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence." >>>>For one thing it’s not really an extraordinary claim. It’s not like say, demagnetizing CDs or all wires are directional. For another thing, the person you say is the author of that quote, Carl Sagan was about to have Ellie Arroway try to travel through a black hole in order to get to Vega in his novel (and later move), Contact 📡 until Kip Thorne pointed out to him that she Ellie would surely die if she tried to enter a black hole. She would be torn into a million bits. Duh! So he decided to use a wormhole instead of a black hole as the faster than light means of travel to Vega. Which, actually, is also a shitty idea. You know, since worm holes are very much theoretical in nature. |
Some would say it is more akin to religion. Lacking understanding or knowledge, one will make up an explanation to fill in the gaps. Maybe it is akin to anti-vaxxers (and climate change denial), again, most lacking knowledge, will grab onto anything that appears to support their desired world view. wyoboy38 posts12-22-2019 1:02pmIt's like climate change debate or any politics these days--neither side will change the others' mind--but believers can share while non-believers can only bash--and i have no idea yet which camp i'm in on this ! |
I think there is an awful lot of projection from naysayers as of late. They cling to certain bias diagnosis (from afar) and neglect the ones they fall victim to. Fear of change can be a large predictor of one's perception to any manner of topic. The lengths one will go to to remain in their bubbles is astounding. The results can bring down empires, societies, religions and even audio forums. All the best, Nonoise |
audiozenology Some would say it is more akin to religion. Lacking understanding or knowledge, one will make up an explanation to fill in the gaps.There are also fundamentalist zealots, who insist their infallible sacred texts reveal all the truths that are to be known. |
But who are the naysayers? Are they the ones that refuse to allow their claims to be tested, or the ones who encourage the tests, even admitting to their own fallacies? I think those honest with themselves, know who the real naysayers are. It is a generally accepted truth that those that refuse to allow their claims to be tested, that avoid all attempts at verifying their claims, and that make up excuses for why those tests won't work (and make up excuses that don't jive with accepted facts), are the ones that are not honest, at least with themselves. nonoise5,200 posts12-22-2019 1:38pmI think there is an awful lot of projection from naysayers as of late. They cling to certain bias diagnosis (from afar) and neglect the ones they fall victim to. |
Some sacred texts never change, no matter what we know or learn. Texts related to science are always being updated as we learn. cleeds2,645 posts12-22-2019 1:39pm There are also fundamentalist zealots, who insist their infallible sacred texts reveal all the truths that are to be known. |
However, most here are fundamentally chasing the same thing questioned by the OP: Is there a way i don't know about to improve the sound of my music--in this case raising speaker cables off the floor--some say they hear a difference, some say no way--for me if the tweak is cheap enough i'll try it without needing to do scientific research--if it isn't cheap i probably won't (well, except maybe room treatment which seems the most credible tweak on this forum). It's always interesting to hear why or why not but the purpose of this rabbit-hole hobby is for audiophile fanatics to decide for themselves--by listening--and if they hear a difference they like there is no amount of physics, electrical engineering etc. that will convince them it doesn't exist--i too am skeptical of those who won't accede to measurement testing but that also presumes that all of our measurements systems are infallible--are they ? So i'm going to try this tweak if only because a few credible individuals with reasonable dialogue have said it "can" (not "does") make a difference and for $10 i can listen for myself. |
And in the end, there is no "tweak", nonsense or not (nonsense IME) that makes, or could conceivable make, a calculable fraction of the difference that exists between a good recording and a bad/mediocre recording. A good performance or a bad/mediocre performance. So personally, not being terminally OCD, I have no desire to try endless tweaks - most if not all with no supporting rationale *why* they might, maybe, possibly could do something - using my "reference" best recording to see if some minute difference, on the ragged edge of perceptbility, might manifest itself. But hey, it's your time and your money. Just save use the pseudo science handwaving and 'my ears are golden, yours are brass' arguments please. Carry on, this has been a hoot so far ;-) |
