Hey, if this thread going on long enough, Mr. geoffkait might turn into a poet - like Mark Twain part II. At least there's a plus of all the back and forth. Regardless, my right ear is fairly deaf above 7KHz, so I have an inherent bottle-neck so cable risers or not, I'll just going to snake-oil whatever just for fun lols.
Does raising speaker cables off the floor really make a big difference?
My cables are laying on the floor (in a mess), would raising them off the floor really make much of a difference? The problem is they are quite wide and too long
http://mgaudiodesign.com/planus3.htm so any suggested props are appreciated! Cheers
396 responses Add your response
@khughes: "So personally, not being terminally OCD, I have no desire to try endless tweaks - most if not all with no supporting rationale *why* they might, maybe, possibly could do something - using my "reference" best recording to see if some minute difference, on the ragged edge of perceptbility, might manifest itself." So--Why bother commenting ? You haven't tried it, don't want to try it--don't believe it--how is that helpful to the OP ? Who's handwaving now? |
Note to self: there appears to be a growing schism between advanced audiophiles and the average Joe Blow in the streetAs I said, it's been a hoot. Pronouncements from high atop Mount Pretentious are always quite comical when viewed in the light of reality. It’s both patently obvious and amazing as to what lengths some go to, to frame their argument. All manner of speculation and implications are thrown into the mix in order to avoid the relevant topic at hand.Honestly I prefer Caesar, while you prefer Word salad, so be it. It’s so simple but they strive to make it so complex.Ah, yes, Irony...such a lovely tool and yet so seldom employed with such panache. Bravo! Anyway, Merry Christmas to All! |
So--Why bother commenting ? You haven't tried it, don't want to try it--don't believe it--how is that helpful to the OP ? Who's handwaving now?@Wyoboy - I was commenting that with the recordings being the most important determiner of sound quality - by a LONG shot - worrying about "tweaks" is rather pointless, especially given that we all know of many things - oh, I dunno, maybe room acoustics - that do indeed play a huge role in sound. Maybe those 'joe blow' comments went under your head? Oh, and please enlighten me on the method by which your whining post about me benefits the OP? @nonoise, @geoffkait - LOL, as I said, you guys are a hoot. And so easy to incite. |
@khughes: What does quality of recording have to do with the OP's post ? Zero. I'm guessing he already knows that nothing will save a crappy recording. He's asking if this particular thing will improve a good recording. So your comment is irrelevant and useless to him. Perhaps you haven't paid attention to my prior posts to the OP--the tweak is so cheap you can try it and see if you hear anything--posters that say they've tried and don't hear anything--that's of use to the OP--posters that haven't tried anything and still diss--useless as you know what on a boar (or is that a bore?) or as Willie might put it: "There's deceivers, and believers, and old in-betweeners that seem to have no place to go..." |
I think there are a couple of things to think of here.First I endorse the use of high density metal conductors. You see what many in the audiophile world don’t understand is that the space in between the interstices of atoms is larger or smaller depending on the element in question. So your pure Platinum speaker cable is a top choice to make. Why you might ask and I am happy to answer. Have you ever heard a pop when your system comes on? This is more than likely due to electron puddling where the wire dips and the interstices allow for this electron puddling to happen. You see there is an accumulation of new fresh flowing electrons and then the puddled ones all propelled along at the same time and that surge from the puddled + new does this until the puddled ones are bled off. Of course denser metal stops a percentage of this but still in all you DO have to think of conductor slope. I have found the very best answer to be to have the amp, assuming the amp to be the very last item in the circuit which does then feed directly into the speaker cable, must be elevated above the speaker with at least a 10 degree slope angle going down towards the speaker. No dips or sags anywhere and how you do that does not matter. Personally I find acrylic tubes in decorator colors work best and look good doing it. I have found through serious research that a slope angle higher than 30 percent will unduly accelerate low frequency notes as heavier things are affected by slope angle so be careful how steep you make your conductor runs. Once you combine correct conductor metal with correct slope you will find your sound to be flowing and vibrant and none of the accumulated electron problems will arise. One word of caution though on the choice of acrylic tube. Stay with the clear tubes and not the tubes with dark hues to them as they will color your sound in a negative fashion. |
glupson "There was an immediate collapse in the soundstage when they were removed."It must have collapsed all the way to the floor. >>>>Luckily for glubson he got out just in time from where he was looking up girls’ dresses. Close, call, glubby! |
Robert Frost proved that both fire and ice will end up with you dead. That means both snake oil and believers will end up dead. I guess my choice would be the less painful one or does it even matter - either way you're dead. Hm ... is there a pill? Oh ... I just realize ... maybe there's a DSP option. You take it and you just get a perfect death lols. |
@nonoise
Do you think I am a "naysayer" who fits your description? If so, could you explain which bias you think I have fallen victim to?
Human psychology is fascinating, isn’t it? So lets compare bubbles. :-) I’ve enjoyed subjective evaluations of audio equipment, and sharing subjective notes between my fellow audiophiles, for over 30 years.I’ve "heard" differences between amps, cables of different types, tweaks (footers under equipment and various others), between CDPs, DACs (and in video, between video cables). I love the sound of my CJ tube amplification and always go back to it after trying solid state. Never done a "blind test." Even when some "objectivists" think tube amps are silly. I swoon over the sound of my "crazy expensive" (to the average joe), cartridge etc. No talk of blind testing, all subjective. If you look through my own thread on auditioning speakers: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/contemplating-devore-speakers-and-others-long-audition-report... IIRC, you won’t find any talk of measurements (let alone blind testing). It’s all happily "subjectivist" which is how I engage with my system for 99.9 percent of the time. On some of the "more objectivist" forums I sometime draw the ire of some in those community for defending many aspects of a subjective approach. So....I know what the audio subjectivist experience is. I’ve lived it, and still live it. BUT... I ALSO am aware of the general features of, and rational for, the scientific empirical method. And I can’t just pretend that audio is magically excepted from the complexities that bedevil any other careful empirical inquiry - especially the unreliability built in to human subjectivity.(And this is something the "blind test naysayers" seem to routinely misunderstand: accepting that human subjectivity is unreliable doesn’t mean "a subjective impression is wrong and due to bias" or "what you think you heard wasn’t real." It only means that in many cases it *could* be error, so it can be hard to unravel the objective facts from the subjective impressions). When I was hearing differences between various gear and some engineers and science-types were suggesting how I could be imagining the differences, I couldn’t be intellectually dishonest and pretend I’m excepted from any such biases. So I took myself out of my comfort zone, and REALLY put my powers of perception, and subjective beliefs, to more controlled tests. I followed the prescriptions of the engineers/objectivists to the letter, and tested my own assumptions. And I did this numerous times with various types of gear. It was sometimes validating, sometimes quite humbling, always eye-opening and a learning exercise. So now I don’t stay only within my "subjectivist bubble" believing that my own perception is the Ultimate Arbiter Of Truth. I have been face-to-face with challenging my perceptions, and I have owned up to my fallibility. I can see the very good arguments for an objective approach, while I also maintain arguments for the worth of intersubjectivity in audio matters. And I do not move from my own experience, even blind testing, to claims that therefore YOUR subjective experience is telling you something false.That would be just as unjustified an inference as clinging to the belief that my subjective impressions are never wrong. So, nonoise, Have YOU ventured outside your bubble? To what degree have you challenged your beliefs? Have you put your own subjective impressions under any more scrutiny than the usual "If I think I hear it, it’s true?" paradigm? Are you willing to seriously consider the "other side" of the debate when it comes to your own deeply held convictions about audio, for instance that some of your firm subjectively-derived impressions about cables or whatever may be wrong? I’d throw that question out to anyone else who feels the "naysayers" or those who ever ask for measurements or blind testing are the ones stuck in a bubble. Cheers. |
I can't match prof word for word, since he already retires but I still have to earn money, so anyway, to save time, I plagiarize ... errrrr ... I mean paraphrase from a book. In this book, there was a "real" story about a get together, or a convention, of a large group of well known scientists, or to be specific, a group of physicists specialized in the field of quantum physics. Being a bit bored, they came up with a game that we all have one time or another played. Basically, it's a game in which you can only get to ask "yes or no" question, and at the end you have to guess what it is. Usually, for this game, everybody would agree first on an "object" so that people know to answer "yes or no" to the question being asked. But being smart $$$ as they are, they want to make a slight change to the game to make it a bit interesting. The change was at first, nobody would agree on any specific object, but whatever answer to the question asked thereafter has to be consistent with the previous answer. So the second answer has to be consistent with the first answer, and the third answer has to be consistent with the second answer and so on. So it goes that the first unlucky contestant after asking question after question, he noticed that it would take unusually longer and longer for the "yes or no" answer to come (as it would obviously since it gets harder and harder to be consistent after awhile), and also he could see some small laughter as if he was the object of a joke. At the end, he was able to guess what the "object" was to the loud laughter of the entire room and of course he was let in on the joke finally. Anyway, what does it have to do with cable risers? I think prof already got me beat. Maybe he can tell what that is. |
I keep telling you guys, any riser made of any material (ceramic, acrylic, wood, plastic, paper, etc.) that touches the floor, whether it's carpet, wood, tile, concrete, whatever, is not going to be as effective as suspending the cables from the ceiling. It's the only way to go. And a thin enough monofilament is virtually invisible. |
prof I love the sound of my CJ tube amplification and always go back to it after trying solid state. Never done a "blind test." Even when some "objectivists" think tube amps are silly. I swoon over the sound of my "crazy expensive" (to the average joe), cartridge etc. No talk of blind testing, all subjective. >>>>Gosh, don’t go out on a limb or anything. prof I ALSO am aware of the general features of, and rational for, the scientific empirical method. And I can’t just pretend that audio is magically excepted from the complexities that bedevil any other careful empirical inquiry - especially the unreliability built in to human subjectivity.(And this is something the "blind test naysayers" seem to routinely misunderstand: accepting that human subjectivity is unreliable doesn’t mean "a subjective impression is wrong and due to bias" or "what you think you heard wasn’t real." It only means that in many cases it *could* be error, so it can be hard to unravel the objective facts from the subjective impressions). >>>>Oh, geez, just when you were doing so well. Blind tests don’t mean anything. You were on the right track with complexities, but then you went off the rails with your usual bind test hornswoggle. It’s the inability of humans to control all the physical variables. Or know all the variables, for that matter. It has virtually nothing to do with psychological issues. No, it’s not hard to unravel the objective facts from the subjective hornswoggle. |
@prof , Yes, I've gone out of my "bubble" many a time. It helps to keep perspective. One mustn't stop learning. I did so when it comes to fuses. After my experience with different brands on my previous integrated, it was apparent that they made a difference. With my latest integrated, I went in "knowing" it would and much to my surprise, they didn't. In fact, the one that came with it sounded the best. As for raising cables, as I've already stated, I've never heard that big a difference, if any, all those years ago. It was only from reading this thread that I thought I'd try it and the difference was plainly evident, and much for the better. Lowering them to the floor validated my findings. Simple enough thing to do, and repeatable. Now, do I need to have people over to witness it? That would be a silly thing to do and those that know me would end up seeing me in a less favorable light. 😄 As for the tangental, metaphysical argument of do I really hear what I think I'm hearing malarkey, don't go there. I've seen you do this to others as of late which I found a bit distasteful and led me to contribute less as a result. To see a topic of discussion devolve into a brow beating of sorts on someone who's syntax was in error or who didn't fully communicate thoughts (due to the nature of this format) as well as others (yet the meaning was there for anyone to comprehend) left a bad taste. Can't have that. All the best, Nonoise |
@prof OK so initially you were happy in your subjective beliefs but some of your friends convinced you that you shouldn't believe what you did so you left your happy bubble in order to prove that being happy was wrong ? And by golly you proved it ? So what was the point ? That truth is the goal regardless of how miserable it makes you ? I came from the other direction--first believing solely in the empirical method and naysaying anyone who held solely subjectivist beliefs--and then i heard something i shouldn't have heard--and it was not measurable--but it made me happy--so, bubble burst i entered the world of voodoo gladly and happily but with restraint on the wallet--like i'm about to try with the tweak of this thread. Given that all audio perception is subjective--i hear things you don't and vice versa i'm much happier just listening and enjoying the music without someone telling me i shouldn't or can't possibly enjoy it unless i've first determined if it's actually real... Merry Christmas to all--my son is home and i'm happy and i sure can't measure that... |
SkyWalker: "I don’t believe it". Yoda: "That’s why you failed". Even better than cable risers is no riser at all like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/27HlB3_bvVY/hqdefault.jpg I am waiting for cable levitators. |
nonoise, You have again missed the point. Clearly the issue here as been the contrast between those who stick to a purely "subjective" paradigm where one's own subjective assessment is the ultimate arbiter of any audio claim, vs those who hold some suspicion of that sole approach, and who also look to objective evidence for claims as well as acknowledging the usefulness of controls like blind testing. You seem to remain stubbornly in the former camp. I did so when it comes to fuses. After my experience with different brands on my previous integrated, it was apparent that they made a difference. With my latest integrated, I went in "knowing" it would and much to my surprise, they didn't. In fact, the one that came with it sounded the best. So, in other words, to my question as to whether you ever went outside your own subjective "bubble" the answer is "no." You've simply stuck to exactly the same paradigm where your own subjectivity will trump anything else. Whereas I have used the subjectivist paradigm and also pushed myself outside of it to question my own beliefs and perceptions, by trying blind testing, and acknowledging the technical arguments against some of the claims made in high end audio. You seem stuck in a subjectivist bubble unwilling to challenge your own paradigm, but like to pretend that the "naysayers" are the ones stuck in a bubble. As for the tangental, metaphysical argument of do I really hear what I think I'm hearing malarkey, don't go there. At your command! Wouldn't want to challenge your bubble. I've seen you do this to others as of late which I found a bit distasteful and led me to contribute less as a result. Sure, you have no qualms about describing those you disagree with as exhibiting "projection" and "bias" and going to ridiculous lengths to stay in their "bubble." But should anyone challenge your critique with arguments against it, well....you get all sensitive and "don't go there" and consider this "browbeating." This thread is asking if raising cables of the floor REALLY makes a big difference. This is a public forum, not a church. You will get different opinions on the subject, and people will give their reasons for their opinions. I'm happy to hear your views, none of which have made me cringe away from wanting to post because they challenge my own opinions. If you are so sensitive in the face of encountering opinions that may be at odds with what you hold to be personally sacred in audio, you may wish to grow a thicker skin and re-calibrate your expectations for public discussions. Otherwise, you'll probably just keep producing more straw-man critiques in an effort to protect your bubble. And if you enjoy playing with fuses, power cables etc, : Enjoy. Doesn't affect how I enjoy my system. |
wyoboy, I suggest you’ve misdiagnosed the situation. OK so initially you were happy in your subjective beliefs but some of your friends convinced you that you shouldn’t believe what you did so you left your happy bubble in order to prove that being happy was wrong ? And by golly you proved it ? So what was the point ? That truth is the goal regardless of how miserable it makes you ? No, I am quite happy to challenge my own beliefs or subjective inferences, if it helps get closer to a truth. It’s even fun in of itself.Some people are worried about challenging their own perceptions (I mean *really* challenging them with controls for not peeking, not "I didn’t think this fuse would make a difference but I heard it!.*) They find the idea destabilizing. I’m fine with being wrong about them. (I did an undergrad in psychology and my favorite aspect was learning from all the research just how counter-intuitive some of the findings were, and the various ways our psychological heuristics lead us to errors. I’m often as happy learning I was wrong as that I was right, because that’s learning!) As it happens, I actually had positive results for the initial blind tests I alluded to (I positively identified the CDPs and DACs in the blind test).Would I have been left "miserable" otherwise? Uh...no. I’ve blind tested, for instance, expensive AC cables that I first thought I heard a difference. Was I made "miserable" when I couldn’t identify the expensive cables against a cheap AC cable? Not at all. It was fascinating and saved me money! I had a similar experience testing video cables back when they were purported to make "amazing visual differences" in AV systems. Didn’t find it to be the case. Would I have liked to improve my picture with a high end video cable? Ya! I have a tweaker inside my like anyone else. But the flipside/silver lining was saving money and putting those agitating worries about video cabling on the shelf.
Sure, that can happen too. Once you abandon demands for plausible explanations, any objective verification and don’t bother with controls for human error, it doesn’t matter how "objectivist" you have have started out, someone can perceive virtually anything to "make a difference." That is why such there are mountains of un-evidenced, contradictory claims flourishing in the world (take a stroll through your local New Age/Psychic’s Fair and see - they'll be giving you exactly the type of anecdotal accounts as you've just given). And it’s why science is so strict about it’s methods. Doesn’t matter how objective or unbiased you think you are - it’s incredibly easy to let your guard drop and find "support" for a pet theory that isn’t there. If going that route you mentioned make you happy, peace upon you! No one is trying to take that away. As I keep explaining: I’ve gone that route too. For a long time I had some spongy pucks under my CDP (and some other gear) that seemed to me to make a sonic difference. I knew that it could be a form of sighted bias, but I chose not to care. Bias or not, I enjoyed having them in my system and they weren’t expensive. I also had some resonator thingies on my speakers for a long time for similar reasons. As I said, same goes for my tube amps, my vinyl set up etc. There is no Objectivist StormTroopers about to knock down your doors for simply taking the route that gives you most enjoyment. But when subjects like tweaks come up, some of us will give reasons for our skepticism and why we feel more cautious about drawing conclusions for the efficacy. If that’s a threat to some people’s psychological equanimity or a challenge to their ability to enjoy this hobby, sorry, that’s on them. Cheers and happy holidays/merry Christmas! I’m off to play some vinyl! |
Hey @uberwaltz, if your tile is stone, ceramic or a composite of natural mediums, I doubt you'll hear a difference. I'm sure Michael from Tune Land or Geoff would disagree but from what I've read and my limited experience, to wit, synthetic carpets are the worse to lay cables on. The improvements were immediate and repeatable. There's always a cheap and easy way to determine if you'll benefit from it. Some here have tried foam cups to determine if they can hear a difference. If so, then you can get something a bit more aesthetically pleasing without breaking the bank. @ywoboy, the Ikea tea light holders came in just half an hour ago and they offer the same improvement as the Yoplait Oui glass jars but look much better and dig into the carpet better as well. You can invert them as well to see which end holds the cable best. Both ends have that rounded, saw tooth pattern. I have them both ways as no two cables bend and weave alike. All the best, Nonoise |
prof
I love the sound of my CJ tube amplification ... Never done a "blind test" ... I swoon over the sound of my "crazy expensive" (to the average joe), cartridge etc. No talk of blind testing, all subjective.That's quite a surprise, given what I thought was your faith in blind testing. Whereas I have used the subjectivist paradigm and also pushed myself outside of it to question my own beliefs and perceptions, by trying blind testing, and acknowledging the technical arguments against some of the claims made ...Prof, here you state that you have engaged in blind testing. |
Thanks Nonoise. Yes it is ceramic tile all through. There is a large rug in the center that the Maggie's hug the back edge of but ALL cables are on the tiles except maybe 6 inch of speaker cable as it meets the Maggie's. Possibly one riser right there for each speaker? And as that is directly behind each speaker they could be as ugly as sin as nobody will see them. Cheap enough to test for sure. Do you have a link for those Ikea tea light holders? |
@uberwaltz, here is the link I used: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/vaesnas-tealight-holder-clear-glass-60259096/ All the best, Nonoise |
Cleeds,
Only if you ignore the parts of what I write that won’t fit in to a strawman "Objectivist" caricature. (Note the other tweaks I mentioned as well).
Yes. I’ve only said so many times. But I haven’t blind tested my CJ amps. If you please: What’s your point? I have blind tested some items, not others. And I have continually argued blind testing isn’t necessary for enjoying a high end audio system. But human perceptual bias IS relevant to audio and controlling for bias *can be* helpful if you really want to get more careful about certain conclusions in the audio realm. But no one needs to do it, to ENJOY this hobby. I just did a wine tasting menu at a restaurant. Could some of my perceptions have been influenced by the descriptions of the sommelier? Of course. It would be naive not to admit that. Did I care? No! I wasn’t looking to make a scientifically rigorous case for the nature of the wines. Merely going along with the subjective-flow was what I was after. The same rational can be taken for audio. In this case, I’ve never done a blind test of my CJ amps (or turntable, or current DAC). I’m fine with that. But I won’t make any dubious technical claims for their superiority or for my own subjective enjoyment as the Arbiter Of The Truth Of The Matter. |
"
@mahlman: Are you talking about acrylic tube cable risers ? or what ?
" Use the tubes as conduit. Any electrically neutral support will work like nice designer hardwood supports for instance will look good and work well in this situation. @nonoise How do you troll a fictional topic? Why with fiction of course. |
@nonoise Glad you liked the tealight holders and that they are effective. Hadn't thought of flipping them over but can see how that might be better for digging into the carpet. Funny thing is my wife is betting they won't make any difference so she went and bought a bunch of votive candles to put in them if i surrender. 😀Win either way ! I haven't gotten around to it yet with all the Christmas craziness (translation--i haven't done my Christmas shopping yet !) Just went to the mall and immediately left--too nuts! Gotta get there early tomorrow i guess--the price of procrastination is i have to shop on my birthday... |
@wyoboy, Shopping tomorrow? I feel for ya. That, and having your birthday so close to Christmas probably made your childhood less satisfying than the other kids who had theirs in, say, summertime. I hope they work as well for you as they have for me since, after all, it was you that got me thinking about it and then ordering the holders from Ikea. I'll bet Ikea is wondering why those tea candle holders are flying off the shelves.😄 I hope your wife hears the differences as well. That would make for some great dinner conversation. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
I have found that any benefit of the quieter noise floor from lifting the cables is offset by the noise from the tapping feet of the mice that can't help doing the limbo under the cables. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq7pxUgjLz0 |
"The only thing that is obvious is that this is a claim with no merit or factual basis." very strange statement Actually what I do is all documented and has been since 1989 in High End Audio and back to 1975 in the pro-audio world. Sometimes you guys get too caught up in your own spins and fail to see that professionals have been on top of the research all along. This is why not many of us (professionals) care to hang around these types of forums for extended periods at a time. michael green |
