Does hearing the best in high end audio make your opinions more valid?

When you listen to live music in various venues or even from different locations in one you realize it is all about getting the most out of the room at hand and every room is different.

@celander 

Validation of that opinion requires acknowledgement of a reference state. 

Exactly. So, is the reference state based on price tag, measurements, opinions of self-proclaimed golden ears, public opinion, ear of the beholder, all of the above?  Is the reference state subjective and individualized, and therefore not universal?  Who is in charge of validating?

I fully understand where you are coming from . I have been in a room with 9 pairs of Shakti Hallographs and countless other tweaks .What works better then tube traps is 4 subs = Distributed bass

enginedr1960

For most of us the most expensive part of our systems and the one thing we cant exchange is the room we listen in . I have heard some very good rooms .

>>>>Fortunately, whatever generic or gawd awful room we are dealt we are able to completely overhaul it sonically, as there are a boatload of audiophile products to choose from, from Tube Traps, Room Lens, Marigo VTS Dots, Helmholtz resonators, clocks, tiny little bowl resonators, diffusers, Echo Tunes, Shakti Hallographs, Mpingo discs, isolation stands, crystals, what have you.

@mapman I do agree with going to listen at live venues as well. That is also a very important reference point. I think you get a bigger sound in live listening. I think the soulutions gear even though it’s overpriced provides a big sound with big images. 

Yeah I’m glad we did. Like I said I pretty much like advice from people who have better or multiple reference points. I’m just being honest. It doesn’t mean the you are not right or wrong. It just means I prefer folks that have multiple experiences with multiple pieces of gear, enviorments and technologies 

Orpheus10: As I have stated before, I find myself looking for and listening to music that’s very dynamic, or at least, very well produced. Of course I have to like the music content, but want something that makes my system show it’s stuff. So much of what was once my favorite lps or CDs, sound very thin, due to poor production, recording or mixing.  

calvinj OP
As far as Raidho sounding cold. Once again it was not put together properly. High priced equipment is not the only yardstick. Room, amplification, cabling, source etc make a huge difference. That’s why if you paid attention to what I was saying in the post tha DAVE BASKIN WAS EXPERIENCED AT HIS CRAFT. He knew how to properly match things. He knew how to position his equipment and soundproof his listening enviorment. Any high end speaker can sound like crap if you don’t properly match it with the proper source, cabling, amplification and listening enviorment. As far as lack,of knowledge is concerned you don’t know me and I wouldn’t tell you you have a lack of knowledge. Whatever, anyway I didn’t just go to a show and listen to the equipment I mentioned. I either owned, had long term monthly demos in my listening enviorment or went to listen them on multiple occasions in other people’s systems. I’m just saying if you have not done what I have done at least I’m probably less apt to listen to you. I want people that have tried the whole spectrum and heard the whole spectrum of stuff. I’m not saying that makes them right or wrong but I’m personally more likely to,trust them more. In addition to that when I hear the higher priced equipment that is PROPERLY SET UP AND MATCHED IT WILL BLOW THE OTHER STUFF AWAY USUALLY. Not all the times but more times than not. Is the higher price stuff worth what people pay. NO IM NOT PAYING FOR AUDIO EQUIPMENT THAT COSTS A MANSION OR LUXURY CAR. Some will but I won’t. I feel I’m playing at a nice level that allows me to get the resolution and musicality that I seek in my audio. To each his own. No one is 100% right just my opinion. BASED ON MY LACK OF EXPERIENCE. LOL.

calvinj OP
Look everybody. I have spent the last 14 years going at Audio like an obsession. I have had the pleasure of having Rick Schultz at high fidelity cables allow me to demo stuff. Scott warren at advance home theater system. Bob Spence and affirm Audio and the late Great DAVID BASKIN who had a speaker bucket list because he knew he was dying. Last but not least my friend Charles Threat who along with my friend Bill Smith went on an audio journey for the last 10years. In addition to that my guy Gary at Audio emotion in Scotland always came through with great suggestions. I learned all I could from these guys. I was blessed to have the opportunity to get 30 plus years of experience that each guy had in our hobby. Each of them spent 30 years minimum chasing the Audio ghosts. I’ve heard equipment and cabling at all levels through these relationships. I don’t only speak of what I learned but also what I was taught by them. Equipment, placement, room acoustics, resolution, cabling, recording qualities, equipment isolation etc etc. These guys have allowed me to have access of equipment as cheap as $100 up 100k. I have been blessed to learn and enjoy this hobby like I have. The reason I have settled in my system is that for what I paid and what I seek I’m in a great space. Can I do better yes but at a cost and gamble I’m not willing to take. Every little thing affects your system from the cheapest cable to the room enviorment. I have my opinion but to some you may disagree and that’s fine but I will very seldom lay run into anyone that has been on the trip I have in this hobby for the last 14 years. I have enjoyed every bit of it. I started out thinking that folks were crazy to ever pay more than 2k For anything in this hobby and then I heard what was possible through technology, resolution and great amplification and I changed my mind. It’s great that we have opinions but remember we all have different experiences and I’m not going to down you for disagreeing with me but lack of experience is not a street that you should go down with me. I have been schooled by a great group of guys that love this hobby and do it not just to sell me stuff but for the music. Enjoy it while you are hear two of those guys are no longer with us!

>>>>I’m glad we got that out of the way.

inorganic,

You just gave me an idea. Why not record a piano and some singing in that same room that a reproduction system is placed in? I know, recording technology will be very basic, and so on, but it is still closer to being controlled than imagining what it sounded once upon a time when I listened to it at some other space and not knowing how much the engineers actually fiddled with the recording.


The only question is what to record it on. I guess, some digital higher resolution will be better than a cassette. I will try to do it at some point, hopefully soon.

Thanks for your unintended suggestion.

Look everybody. I have spent the last 14 years going at Audio like an obsession. I have had the pleasure of having Rick Schultz at high fidelity cables allow me to demo stuff. Scott warren at advance home theater system. Bob Spence and affirm Audio and the late Great DAVID BASKIN who had a speaker bucket list because he knew he was dying. Last but not least my friend Charles Threat who along with my friend Bill Smith went on an audio journey for the last 10years. In addition to that my guy Gary at Audio emotion in Scotland always came through with great suggestions. I learned all I could from these guys. I was blessed to have the opportunity to get 30 plus years of experience that each guy had in our hobby. Each of them spent 30 years minimum chasing the Audio ghosts.  I’ve heard equipment and cabling at all levels through these relationships. I don’t only speak of what I learned but also what I was taught by them. Equipment, placement, room acoustics, resolution, cabling, recording qualities, equipment isolation etc etc. These guys have allowed me to have access of equipment as cheap as $100 up 100k. I have been blessed to learn and enjoy this hobby like I have. The reason I have settled in my system is that for what I paid and what I seek I’m in a great space. Can I do better yes but at a cost and gamble I’m not willing to take. Every little thing affects your system from the cheapest cable to the room enviorment. I have my opinion but to some you may disagree and that’s fine but I will very seldom lay run into anyone that has been on the trip I have in this hobby for the last 14 years. I have enjoyed every bit of it.  I started out thinking that folks were crazy to ever pay more than 2k For anything in this hobby and then I heard what was possible through technology, resolution and great amplification and I changed my mind. It’s great that we have opinions but remember we all have different experiences and I’m not going to down you for disagreeing with me but lack of experience is not a street that you should go down with me. I have been schooled by a great group of guys that love this hobby and do it not just to sell me stuff but for the music. Enjoy it while you are hear two of those guys are no longer with us! 

As far as Raidho sounding cold. Once again it was not put together properly. High priced equipment is not the only yardstick. Room, amplification, cabling, source etc make a huge difference. That’s why if you paid attention to what I was saying in the post tha DAVE BASKIN WAS EXPERIENCED AT HIS CRAFT. He knew how to properly match things. He knew how to position his equipment and soundproof his listening enviorment. Any high end speaker can sound like crap if you don’t properly match it with the proper source, cabling, amplification and listening enviorment. As far as lack,of knowledge is concerned you don’t know me and I wouldn’t tell you you have a lack of knowledge. Whatever, anyway I didn’t just go to a show and listen to the equipment I mentioned. I either owned, had long term monthly demos in my listening enviorment or went to listen them on multiple occasions in other people’s systems. I’m just saying if you have not done what I have done at least I’m probably less apt to listen to you. I want people that have tried the whole spectrum and heard the whole spectrum of stuff. I’m not saying that makes them right or wrong but I’m personally more likely to,trust them more. In addition to that when I hear the higher priced equipment that is PROPERLY SET UP AND MATCHED IT WILL BLOW THE OTHER STUFF AWAY USUALLY. Not all the times but more times than not. Is the higher price stuff worth what people pay. NO IM NOT PAYING FOR AUDIO EQUIPMENT THAT COSTS A MANSION OR LUXURY CAR. Some will but I won’t. I feel I’m playing at a nice level that allows me to get the resolution and musicality that I seek in my audio. To each his own. No one is 100% right just my opinion. BASED ON MY LACK OF EXPERIENCE. LOL.

I took my wife to her first audio show last year.  The third system was the von Schweikert/VAC/Kronos at $1.4 million.  That's the system she wanted after a 20 minute session.  Four others competed at a lower level from $20K to $150K.  Most left her running from the room or bored (about 40 other systems).  Listening to the best actually spoiled her appreciation for what I have, which is similar to the other four rooms, very musical, not as resolving/soundstaging/dynamic as the $1.4 million system.  She's so critical now when it comes to her rock albums (which I point out are not all audiophile quality).  So, I let her play her rock in a lesser revealing system with more feedback and warmer sound which she prefers.  She does like classical and jazz on my better system though.

Calvin: When I say the best I mean what I actually mean those pieces that are supposed to be really great based on the reviewers and the industry guys that supposedly say they are.

"supposed to be really great," and "that supposedly say they are."

Best is quantitatively finite, it is not subjectively infinite, which is why it’s an oxymoron with regard to music reproduction equipment, as I said earlier. And, who cares what those so-called reviewers and industry guys think, anyway?

We’re the ones with the ears, and the bux they want.

Hearing the really top end stuff in my experience only allows you to better judge what you consider to be great sound.
 The more varied your experience the greater the depth of knowledge you can draw upon.
 Some very expensive gear I’ve heard was exploring unorthodox technologies that although expensive did not seem to me to be as successful as the cost warranted.

There you go again with the post envy.  You should get that taken care of. 

OK, who woke mapman up? And why didn’t he post once with all those thoughts together in the same post instead of three separate posts? Oh, wait a second, I think I know why........😬

I’ll go out on a limb and say a reliable indicator of a truly good system is it makes all kinds of music sound the best it can, acoustic or electronic. It’s all music. Can’t pick and choose.

Scale is a big factor in cost.   It cost way less to get the best possible sound in a smaller room than a very large one.   Paying top dollar for gear that will go on a smaller room is probably not very cost effective but as said in anything high end bling is a factor for many as well. 

I take every opportunity at shows, stores, peoples houses, live venues, whatever to have opportunities to hear different things and what might sound or work best for me. Does that make my opinion more valid? It does for me and that’s all I can bank on.

You can’t hit the target if you don’t know where the bullseye is. Everyone hears differently and has a different target that they are shooting for. Some targets are more similar than others, some might be total night or day.

As a senior audio tech for 35+ years I have to say that exposure to the best equipment/sound is NOT a yardstick to measure someone's opinions. I seen/worked with people who had access to the most expensive, finest equipment that couldn't tell the difference between great sound and listening to sound on a tin can through a string. Everyone's hearing is different and mine is good but I've known guys in the business who could hear things that I couldn't like distortion that I could only see on a test set. The person is more important than the equipment they've listened to if you are looking for qualified opinions. A lot of audio snobs will tell you a bunch of B.S. about their extremely expensive equipment but it doesn't mean they can really hear the difference, even if they're honest they may be influenced by the cost or the appearance (like appraising furniture) more than the real sound. 

https://www.rawassertions.com/2017/05/in-search-of-sound-accuracy/

Here you may get an “ uncomfortable “ yet truthful analysis about your question!!! 
Howard Milstein

Difficult to say given different expectations.
One problem is the heavy amplification in performance of so much music today, which puts an electronic filter at the head of live performance and judgment. That also applies to the acoustic choices of sound engineer and producer in recording.

My standard is live, unamplified music in an acoustically supportive space. My music listening is mainly  classical. My highest standard for orchestral music is the Concertgebouw Orchestra live in its home Concertegouw hall in Amsterdam. For chamber and solo the Wigmore Hall in London for performance acoustic. In the music I listen to, I often note the ambiance and effect of the recording acoustic on the immediacy of the performers.

However, the very act of recording can strive for concert experience or for its own esthetic to create a recorded musical event as a separate source.

This may seem specialist, but it could relate to whatever type of music is most important to the listener. . But for me recorded sound should relate as honestly as possible to high qualify live performance experience that reveals fine musicians in a communicative and convincing acoustic.

@cleeds obviously it's a moving target and it's different depending on each manufacturer. My rough estimate would be about 10 K. You  can't seriously think that in these hundred thousand dollar amplifiers there's 90,000 more technology than in a pair of well-built $10,000 amplifiers.  Obviously gold face plates and inch thick case work does not contribute to sound quality. 

analogluvr

... Once you pass a certain price level it's about status and bling, not sound quality ...

What price is that for amplifiers, for example? What about speakers? What about turntables?

 I find when people go gaga over expensive or new stuff, just because it is, that it's an indication of lack of experience or lack of knowledge. Not saying some of it isn't good but a lot of it isn't and almost all of it isn't worth the price. Once you pass a certain price level it's about status and bling, not sound quality. 
Also there is no best, it depends what you value. My point source speakers are going to image and stage better than the aforementioned Raidho big dollar ones, it's just physics. On the other hand, they probably do something better than mine. 
That being said I've heard numerous high dollar Raidho systems and they left me cold.  Again subjectivity. 
And elizabeth, I think what Erik said had a lot of merit. Sounds like you are just getting defensive. 

Inorganic. That is true. When you are listening for long periods with having the treble hit your ear wrong and the music has the right amount of detail with organic musicality it’s a nice long music session

I think the best way to judge the quality of a stereo system is a comparison with live music, piano, voices )solo and grouped), in various environments.  I've never heard an audio system that truly sounds like a Steinway grand, but some come very close.  Using a known excellent system as your standard is not without some problems, because it is in a different room and probably at a slightly different volume.  Don't just focus on  transients or the bottom and top of the spectrum. You can usually tell is a system is good in the first minute of hearing it.  After that your brain begins to accommodate it.   Real music (and the memory can recall it) is the better standard. This is an easy test: the length of time you can listen to your system before you have audio fatigue.  If you can listen for 5 hours and not feel unsettled, you have a well-behaved system.

@dentdog I agree. I have been around a lot of the old school guys. I’ve learned from the guys that have been in the hobby 35 plus  years. I’ve learned a lot about tubes and horns. I  demoed some older equipment earlier. I then moved up and then tried some other things. I eventually moved up by trying classe, bryston, esoteric, Audio research LSA statement, musical,fidelity then I heard veloce and wammo the transparency of this battery powered pre amp was amazing. It was like Audio butter but crazy expensive. There were a bunch of different great sounds in the things I tried but the technology in the veloce got me thinking.  I eventually settled on my kr Audio va 900 integrated because of the tubes and musicality. I learned because I heard these and many others it allowed me to grow in the hobby. Then I met Dave Baskin. I heard devaliet, accuphase, Lumin and soulution. That allowed me to expand my knowledge of sound in terms of pre amps and power Amps. I heard about 7 to 10 more brands in between those. I heard rogue, Mark Levinson, McIntosh, Cary, and marantz. This has allowed me to,have a better informed opinion and more exposure to all ranges of gear. Speaker wise I have heard Sonus faber, revel, b&w, Vienna acoustics, definitive technology, Gato, magico, dynaudio, raidho, magnepan, voxativ, focal, yg, vivid, Joseph Audio,and Dali. There was also a speaker with a big blue horn that I can’t remember the name of but all this gave me a better idea of the great different sounds of Audio. Because of these experiences I feel like I have a better ear.  The more you hear the better to me!

I like the topic. In my case would fall into the yea probably group. And you bet I would love to hear more high quality systems. Would lead me toward possible improvements. 
Our talent at discerning what might improve our systems reducing trial and error, and lord knows the expense is pretty critical unless you have pretty unlimited budgets. I was around as stereo reproduction left the runway, say '67-'72. My circle of friends included numerous sound engineers with Capricorn who had some pretty outstanding systems. Tubes and horns-still a valid high end product. So yes it certainly helped. Have to have a reference to set the bar otherwise you are somewhat ignorant as to the possibilities.

Not a big deal to share what you have but will run the mouth about how anyone who buys high end is a fool. Just get off the thread. Go that away!

They do this on multiple threads take a look for yourself. Honestly it’s America and it’s a right to respond but if you not going to share then just talk to yourself. People come to the threads to share experiences etc. why don’t y’all get a troll thread and just meet there. It’s the same 4 or 5 people. 

Well there are a few people on this thread they know who they are. All they do is attack the high end. They don’t share what they have.  They don’t talk about what they have actually heard. They are just negative trolls.  Useless!  

Even worse intentioned than not sharing there is such a thing as intentionally obfuscating and talking nonsense.   Most will not go there but for some that is their modus operandi.   Sad but true.   It's just part of dealing with most things in life. High end audio is no exception. 

I started at the lower end I moved up gradually. I’m pretty comfortable with my ear, my experience with multiple pieces of gear at multiple price points. Like i said to each his own. I think there are a lot of opinions here.  I  personally trust people that are willing to share what they have and have listened to a lot of gear at multiple price points. If you don’t  want to share you just babbling to me. So why even post on the thread if you not!  Useless CARRY ON!

Well the only reason I asked about what you have is to get an idea of your own reference point.  What have you settled on etc.  you offer your opinions up so much I’m just trying to figure out what you are running. It has nothing to do with costs etc.  I don’t have a lot of huge names in my system but it’s a little pricey and niche. Geokaffit is your system tube, solid state or vintage. It’s not a push-up contest by any means. In terms of best in Audio. Yes it’s very subjective. I used it in terms of what a lot of people consider reference quality gear. I mean I want to hear the best gear I can despite price point. Anyway if something is priced too high I hear a lot of bashing about it’s not worth it etc. To each his own. I’m happy where I’m at and getting what I like out of my system 

I live near a couple of high end shops and have hung out to listen to several mega expensive systems over the years and always enjoy that. I also enjoy the fact that I can assemble a system every bit as enjoyable in my home, using well sorted and generally far less expensive gear that's been fussed over and made to fit my tastes. That simply comes from experience...does my system sound better than the mega gear at the "salon?" Yes it does, and that is likely due to the fact that one learns things along the way (if one cares to)...well done power supplies, noise suppressing AC gizmos, better sounding tubes, deciding a certain cable fits into the rig without making itself known...my reference is musical instruments all over my house, decades of live music as a professional musician who also mixes live shows, and understanding how to impose my personal taste on my gear. That's it...it's not a pushup contest, I don't require validation from others, I simply make it sound right or change something. A self indulgent personal fun zone just for me.

My opinion has mostly been stated above but for what it's worth: In general hearing more systems provides more data points to assess what you like / dislike and want / don't want based on your listening preferences. Hearing higher end systems exposes you to data points often with higher audio quality which should open your scope of possibility to what you want and what to potentially achieve. In my  experiences with high end systems (>500K) I often walked away with particular areas that I aspired to achieve (ultimate clarity, dynamics, etc.) but very few systems checked all the boxes in terms of an ultimate system. My experience tells me this is more about room treatment / placement or lack thereof.

Of course auditioning    great high end systems  is part of the research, but your enjoyment of the music should be the final arbiter.    Spend your time and money  going to listen to live music in the best acoustical venues you can find.  FOr me I judge everything against the Auditorium Theatre in Chicago, Sullivan and Adlers acoustical masterpiece. Then take the money you have allocated to your system and get as close to replicating that sound in your listening room, as  you can.  Sometimes I think those of us in this hobby loose sight of why we have great stereos, it's the music not the $$ spent on the system.  It's what sounds great to you not to someone else. Take your entire environment into consideration, including room acoustics, your significant others taste, system synergy etc.  Most good manufacturers and shops will let you audition in your home, that is where you will know what the system will sound like.   Sure it will take time to get where you want but isn't the journey worth it.

A rich man has much more chance of obtaining anything than a poor man.


A rich camel has much greater chance of passing through the eye of a needle than a poor camel. It can buy a bigger needle.

“Best” is a matter of opinion. I have listened to several 6 figure systems that IMO don’t  come close to equaling the satisfaction I get with my set up.
By non-audio enthusiast standards I have spent a fortune, but by “our” standards, its in the basic side. speakers retail for $15k, pre amp 4k, power amps 8k when they were new 11 years ago, cd/sacd player about 2k when new 14 years ago, TT is around 3k , etc.
My goal is to hear everything that is on the recording with the least amount of coloration, taking account that the room is a big ( if not the biggest) culprit of coloration.
On “greatest hits” albums, i can hear the different mics and production techniques of each song. I love to hear the difference as I enjoy the art.
 I’m so satisfied with my system,  I hope you find your version of “best” ASAP. 

Cheers!

No....

(1) Without prejudice to anything below, the expression “best in audio” is usually interpreted singularly and thus uniquely (differently) by the beholder. Regardless of hobbyist or audio mag reviewer/reporter, it churns out a broad range compendium of a buzzilion conflicting anecdotal and heavily biased personal faves .

(2) Accordingly, there is no reference point for “best” in audio, and to search for that elusive term is a futile search for the Holy Grail, starting with the constant tension introduced by conflicting context:
(a) the “best” that the beholder has actually personally auditioned (a very limiting and distilled sample); versus
(b) the “best” in a particular price point strata

calvinj, I think you have completely missed my point. I am not attacking anyone for having expensive systems. But simply having an expensive system or any system is not sufficient reason to draw conclusions regarding sound quality, which cables are the absolute best, how much people need to spend on their systems, what constitutes audio Nirvana or any of the other usual audiophile arguments. Or to claim that the opinion of folks with inexpensive systems don’t count.

I will not play your I’ll show you mine if you show me yours game for those reasons. It doesn’t prove anything. You can derive almost no information regarding sound quality from pictures of systems or lists of system components. There are myriad very expensive systems that sound horrible or at least very generic. A rich man has as much chance of obtaining audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.

Will you share what your system consists of with us please?

Geoffkait I kind of notice that you always bash the systems of the guys with well means. Quit hating. I wouldn’t spend the money that guy spent on his system but the music bought him peace and joy knowing that death was coming fast. He was an experienced high end dealer who had the means and experience to put a great system together and he did it. He put the right things together in the right enviorment with equipment based on his experience that worked well together. Look if you can  put a cheap system together that makes you happy then enjoy it. But don’t always crap on people that can afford more or spend more or want to spend more by always calling them fools. If they can put a system together at costs they can afford that allows them to enjoy the music more then great for them. I’ve tried a lot of stuff and heard a lot of stuff. The more stuff the better the opinion to me. There are just some systems in the high end that if put together right can reset your ears! If you haven’t listened then watch how you comment. Cost doesnt always equal better performance. But if you put a cheap system properly matched and an expensive system properly matched the more expensive one will sound better but how much you are willing to spend will determine if it’s worth it to you!

Neverthelesss, somehow we muddle on. 😛 Just wait until you hear that Raidho System calvinj was raving about.

cd318,

Your post could be in the Textbook of Audiophilia. Chapter "Give me a break". On the other hand, or maybe ear, if everybody agreed with it what other useless thing would we fight about?


Your lower hearing around 14 000 Hz and apparent normal above it is actually quite common and, if I remember it correctly through this fog of years, frequently observed on neural curves. Even if my life now depended on it, I could not remember the name for that. It does have something to do with the perception and some overlapping regions, but I am not brave enough to try to make it up now. It was a long time ago. Even without explanation, I hope it helps a tiny little bit.