Let's see: we've had the pebbles, the little clock, the turntable platform that includes only some old springs...and now the Contact Paper CD tweek. Do any of us believe in this? I know Geoff's an advertiser, and actually a very nice guy, but come on, fellow audiophiles...this is all the epitome of snake oil! No? Every idea was tried, and has failed, numerous times. Despite being a nice guy, all he's selling is audio nonsense.
Wow, somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} I am untroubled by not knowing how it works is lecturing me on scientific method.
+++ Please spare us your trite phrases and unscientifically based judgment without fact +++
LOL, without fact you say Norm? Pray tell me, what facts do you have? The ones you dont know about?
I am still waiting to hear whether you know why power cables can improve sound. But I guess that is just one of the facts that you dont have, isnt it. I understand now why we have folks like Kait around the temptation to fleece folks like you must be difficult to resist.
So, Pauly, you will castigate me for saying when it comes to audio buying decisions that I don't care how it works, and then for not having scientific "facts?" Damned if I do, and damned if I don't!
I have no obligation to provide you with what you call "facts" in your untrained lexicon of the scientific method.
I am sure you feel confident that you are immune from con-artists despite your ignorance of science. LOL!
+++ So, Pauly, you will castigate me for saying when it comes to audio buying decisions that I don't care how it works, and then for not having scientific "facts?" +++
No, I castigate you for eluding I bask in the same ignorance you do. Youre the one that brought up scientific method, remember Norm?
I understand perfectly well why the tweaks I have in my system work and am happy to explain each and every one. I am equally comfortable explaining why some will not work.
+++ I am sure you feel confident that you are immune from con-artists despite your ignorance of science. +++
Yep, there you go again on queue. Just how much did you pay for a couple of wooden sticks, which have zero factual nor any proven merit? $1000 right?
+++ LOL! +++
Amazing how that additional 21st chromosome you have makes you laugh even when you have been taken to the tune of $1000 for some $5 worth of wooden sticks. I would have been really angry at myself.
Pauly, as before there is no benefit in discussions with you as you are ignorant of both logic and what science has to say about anything. You took offense that I noted on another thread that your having listened to the Adagios and bought them suggested that you do not always value factual basis for making audio choices. You are not always an idiot apparently. Live well and prosper!
We need not waste our time debating the physics (or lack thereof) of MD products. I've no problem allowing for physical phenomena whose mechanism we've yet to understand and quantify.
So let's cut to the chase here: If MD products make a difference, a blind listener will be able to identify that difference. End of issue.
+++ you are ignorant of both logic and what science has to say about anything+++
Lol. Let me repeat myself, 'Wow somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} I am untroubled by not knowing how it works is lecturing me' on science and logic.
Pray tell us Norm, what is the logic and science in not wanting to understand?
+++ You took offense that I noted on another thread that your having listened to the Adagios and bought them +++
I have no idea what an Adagios is. Again you seem to elude I am the same dummy you are. I am beginning to suspect that you have a problem dealing with people that are intellectually your superiors.
+++ suggested that you do not always value factual basis for making audio choices.+++
Again, you are quite mistaken. (why am I not surprised?) I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis.
+++ You are not always an idiot apparently +++
I'm never the idiot Norm. Even the times I do something foolish, folks like yourself make me look like a genius.
+++ Live well and prosper! +++
Oh, I do live well and I am prosperous (within reason), mainly because I don't throw money away on snake oil and vapor-ware like you do. But thank you for the kind sentiments.
$200 alarm clocks, $75 phone calls, $159 for a box of rocks, $400 for the cd upgrade box, $40 cd tray tape, $375 for the "Promethean" base (wich looks like a couple slabs of wood and bed springs), $40 intelligent chip cd upgrade and so on.....how come we dont see this guy on late night infomercials sandwiched between a Magic Bullet blender and a Male Enhancement syrum? And why on earth would anyone be at all skeptical of pet rocks, phone calls and alarm clocks that cost a couple hundred bucks??????????????
+++ I've no problem allowing for physical phenomena whose mechanism we've yet to understand and quantify.+++
Of course. However, we can apply a certain level of reason. If a tweak can effect, lets say vibration or acoustics, we can assume a high probability that it can work, especially if the company has a proven track record.
None of machina dynamics tweaks are even close to being plausible and I have read numerous posting of their tweaks being nothing other that scams. Surely at least one or two of their tweaks should be understood and accepted by the general audiophile public at large by now but they're not.
The only proponents of MA are folks, who with without exception, claim that they do not understand how tweaks work in general. Out of total ignorance, they make no distinction between tweaks with reasonable chance of having sound factual basis and those that are totally w/o any level of reason.
Okay, Pauly, let me try this again at a more sophomoric level.
"Lol. Let me repeat myself, 'Wow somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} I am untroubled by not knowing how it works is lecturing me' on science and logic.
"Pray tell us Norm, what is the logic and science in not wanting to understand?"
I never said anything about "not wanting to understand." If one hears something that improves ones sound, is it logical to say that you don't understand it and therefore it cannot be true? Even worse, if you don't try a product that others say works because you don't understand it, are you being rational or valuing the basic elements of the science to be receptive to new findings?
My position as always is that there is science involved in audio but mainly it is more applied engineering, which while explaining the basics, ignores many unknown phenomena. Engineering uses what we know to make things that work, but there are many improvements that could be made were our understanding better.
The very basis of science is observations, in this case listening to reproduced music. If one hears a speaker sound far superior, why not buy it? Science may ultimately explain why there is the improvement or others may reverse engineer it and use it themselves.
"Again, you are quite mistaken. (why am I not surprised?) I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis."
I admit that I confused you with someone else who claimed the same position and also found the Adagio speakers to sound much better. Both he and you claim only to buy given a personal understanding of the basis for the component being superior or working at all. Frankly, I think such statements are ridiculous. No one really knows why some caps sound so much better and therefore are used in many components, no one knows how to make the best sounding speaker, wire, electronics. Many try their ideas and some have success.
I therefore believe that you are wrong that all of your purchases are made with full factual knowledge about why they are superior to others. Frankly, you evidence very little capacity to do this.
Don't pat yourself too much on the back or be so dismissive of others who realize that they don't know why something they like works, but buy it nevertheless. You may avoid a tweak or component that really does not work, but you may be missing something that others have found good that you too would enjoy. Who is the worse for this?
If you find all of this illogical, I am sorry for you, but hey everyone somehow gets by. I am none the worse nor none the better for spending time in our unconstructive discussions, but I hope others can understand why I take such exception to those pronouncing that anything is a fraud because they personally cannot understand how it works.
+++ If one hears something that improves ones sound, is it logical to say that you don't understand it and therefore it cannot be true? +++
Nope, and had I actually said as much I would have been wrong. Of course, eluding I had made comments that I didnt to prove your point, is no less than outright lying and demonstrates lack of character on your behalf.
+++ if you don't try a product that others say works because you don't understand it, are you being rational +++
Second time in two sentences you are eluding to something other than the truth. I dont blame you though; with a case as weak as yours, Id be tempted to be deceitful too.
I reject MA products sight unseen because they lack any form of credibility and their offerings lie far outside what can be considered scientifically reasonable to have an effect on audio. I doubt that anybody with any engineering background or experience in electronics thinks otherwise.
MA as a company also has a track record of being fraudulent and I found numerous posts where their products have been exposed as vaporware.
I am happy to try any product if a reasonable explanation, backed by physics and/or research can be produced.
+++ The very basis of science is observations, in this case listening to reproduced music. If one hears a speaker sound far superior, why not buy it? +++
This comment has zero relevance to the topic and by no means contrary to even a single posting I have made on this bulletin board.
+++ Both he and you claim only to buy given a personal understanding of the basis for the component being superior or working at all +++
You come up with this comment after I said {and I quote myself verbatim} I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis. Yet again, you demonstrate a high degree of deceit in a vain attempt to gain credibility. I have bought a number of things w/o personal understanding, but these items were always based on sound physics. Maybe you need to take an English language class?
+++ Frankly, I think such statements are ridiculous.+++
Yes, I think so too. Youre the one that made it and I am glad you recognize yourself as ridiculous. But then, spending $1000 on $5 dowel sticks does indicate a very irrational personality worthy of ridicule.
+++ I hope others can understand why I take such exception to those pronouncing that anything is a fraud because they personally cannot understand how it works.+++
Yes, in some cultures animals are sacrificed to bring on rains and good harvest. They also take great offense when the practice is exposed as fraud. I mistakenly assumed education would eliminate such ignorance but you have proven me wrong.
Don't know how well my point was understood, so let me rephrase. Sometimes the effect of an invention is immediately understood both experientially AND physiologically. Other times, it is only experienced at first, but the underlying mechanism is figured out years later.
In the case of MD products, it is premature to even discuss the alleged mechanism, because we've NEVER EVEN ESTABLISHED that any AUDIBLE EFFECT OCCURS in the first place. My complete disbelief in the "physics" of MD is pretty much irrelevant at this stage, until we honestly test the fundamental assumption that anyone can hear any improvement from a jar of rocks to begin with.
So those arguing about the underlying physics of MD-type products should really tend to first things first: Demonstrate whether or not one can reliably identify the effect from its sound alone.
LOL, you mean spending $200 on a $1.99 clock to improve my sound will mean my head in not in the sand? Or how about $75 on a phone call to hear a 1980's modem? Or how about $160 for some rocks I can pick up for free next to the road? Man, you're sure are smart Norm ...
Amazing how that additional 21st chromosome you have makes you laugh even when you have been taken to the tune of $1000 for some $5 worth of wooden sticks. I would have been really angry at myself.
Regards Paul
I looked at the Machina Dynamica ads here at Audiogon and cannot find a product that fits that description.
Although consistently entertaining, these recurring debates with Norm (and his mult Wellfed) are ultimately pointless.
Wellfed, and presumably Norm, are compensated shills for MD. They receive free or discounted product as a quid pro quo for their supportive comments. (norm: would you state publicly and unequivocally otherwise?) Their comments are not, therefore, the harmless rantings of madmen. They are bought and paid for conspirators in the scam. Why give them a pass when they fail to disclose?
Hi Jeffrey. I suspect you are correct. Looking at Norms posts, it is evident that we have more than plain ignorance at work. For a while now I have suspected that he is part of the scheme to defraud audiophiles.
This is not for Jeffrey and Paul as I think they can go suck eggs. In the development of the Teleportation tweak, Geoff offer me an opportunity to try it. This was offered as I had bought 6 bottles of BPs and 2 ICs from him and he thought I was open-minded as I had removed the BPs presently finding them too hard to get to work with my present preamp. I agreed. Other than this I have no products as a result of supportive comments. Everyone should read my initial post where I said after much mockery and a heavily biased initial post by Jeffery on another thread, that I heard a benefit but it was subtle. I had already told Geoff that he would have a hard time selling this tweak, but he went ahead anyway. In answer to my question, Geoff did tell me that 100% of those trying the Teleportation tweak are quite happy with it. I have already suggested that Geoff sells more products as a result of threads such as this and the now dead one by Jeffrey. If they sell Geoff's products who are the scam artists? Perhaps both Jeffrey and Paul are friends of Geoff helping him sell the Teleportation tweak.
Okay guys are you really shills to help Geoff sell his products. Do you know Geoff and do you receive any remuneration for carping about fraud knowing full-well that it sells his products? I just find it difficult to believe that anyone could be as ignorant as these two guys.
Perhaps I should just ignore posts by those who seem to be utter fools, as I am merely helping Geoff, but I have taught research methods throughout my career and act against those, such as Jeffrey and Paul, who seem to believe they know everything and judge this to be a fraud without ever trying it, what I believe to be self-appointed Scam Police piss me off. Paul thinks it his responsibility to protect others from the defrauders, even though he knows not who they may be. They present themselves to be rational and scientific when in reality they are neither. They also think that mockery is valid to argument and discussion. Both probably had mothers who thought such arguments were cute. They were for 9 year olds; certainly not for adult men.
Please believe that I am selective in what I like from all sources, but if I find something I like, I am likely to say something. I do take strong exception to those I believe are pseudo-scientists and will continue to point out the ignorance and lack of logic.
I beg your forgiveness for taking this long to silence the barking lapdogs.
I must have really gotten to Pauly as he posted a "fraud alert" on another thread. I guess if you can not martial an argument you can yell "fire." Again, IMHO just because Pauly and Jeffrey cannot understand how it works or even if you cannot understand how it works, does not mean it does not work. I don't care really if you try the Teleportation tweak or not, but I have found it of benefit. Had I been presented with a money back offer, I would have tried it, but I don't think Geoff could undo what he has done.
One thing I do now know is that I for one would never value any personal experience that Pauly reports. I doubt his rationality and honesty.
What amazes me is that Audiogon allows endless threads for MD, complete with hostile and abusive posts that would be closed or removed if any other subject or product were involved.
Show me the money!!!! But you may never even see this post.
Fatparrot,I agree entirely. But there have been others that are not MD tweaks. Checkout the H-Cat thread. They always involve the scam police and frequently me asking how dare they say what is a fraud. Also, there have been threads in the past involving whether power cords make a difference.
how telling that, despite the relentless bashing of Machina Dynamica products on these boards, MD's proprietor refuses to join the discussion to offer any defense (explanation) either of his wares or those who have suffered such ridicule for supporting them. i suspect that even you, norm, must feel a twinge of resentment at having been so totally abandoned by the Big Guy.
one would think that Mr Kait would be eager (under the circumstances, maybe even compelled) to offer his point of view on the rationale and efficacy of his audio tweaks. what a great opportunity recent discussion threads have provided to make me and other bashers looks stupid by stepping up with a cogent, substantive discussion of his products. what a disappointment, therefore, that he can only muster a drive-by attack on Pauly, one of his detractors. his refusal to engage in a substantive discussion of his products can't be excused as a desire to stay "above the fray," as his own ad hominum attacks . rather, with only a moment's thought, it is clear why Mr Kait does not offer a substantive point of view on MD products: there is none.
How about some facts. How about telling all of us how you preformed your tests. *What was the audio equipment you used in your test? Tell us about your system, including the ics and speaker cable used. *Was there any power conditioners used between the audio equipment and the AC power receptacle/s used for the outlet cover plate experiment? *Was aftermarket or DIY power cords used on any of the audio equipment plugged into the test recept/cover plate? *Give us some examples of the music you used for your test. *What were some of the things, from the music material you selected, did you listen for?
We need to know a little about the 120V ac delivery system you used for your test.
* Dedicated branch circuits? * Just a regular convenience outlet branch circuit? * Branch circuit wiring method including material used? Installed in a metallic raceway with a metallic rough-in box? NM-B cable, (Romex trade name)? Metal or plastic receptacle rough-in box? Equipment grounding conductor/s, (safety equipment grounding conductor/s)? Connected to ground in the same panel the the branch circuit/s are fed from? If not as above....safety equipment ground ran to an isolated outside grounding electrode, (ground rod), that is not connected to the main grounding electrode system of the houses main electrical service?
*What receptacle/s are you using? Brand? Model number? Does the receptacle have a steel ferrous back strap or a brass non-ferrous back strap?
* Stainless plates used. Ferrous (magnetic)? Non-ferrous? Was a magnet used to check? *Please tell us how you experimented with the SS plates? Here I am assuming you preformed you experiments using both ferrous and non-ferrous SS plates..... When you experimented with the ferrous SS plate did try the plated not only grounded to the safety ground of the outlet but did you also float the ferrous SS plate above ground? Did you varify the back of the plate was not contacting the recept metallic supporting back strap?
And lastly, and I do not mean this as an insult in any way but it must be asked as it a "control" factor for any listening test. I can only guess your age from reading some of your posts, again only guessing, you are in your middle 60s or older. I have had my hearing tested in the last couple of years. When was your last hearing test?
Hmmmm, Jea69. Since when did the scientific method matter to you?
01-01-06: Jea48 Spiro, thank you for your response. The whole thing about an outlet cover plate changing the sound of my system is still a mystery to me, but my ears tell me it is a fact.
Maybe you should cover your tracks better before popping off. Just sayin'
Hi folks, of course these things (like the Brilliant Pebbles and Shakti Hallographs) are nonsense :) I think there are others that aren't nonsense but their importance is way overrated. Examples: the new WBT RCA plugs. This is a pure marketing strategy presented as a scientific techno babble addressing the importance of the so called tiny Eddy currents. Well in our audio cosmos even the tiniest Eddy currents and distortions matter, but will we ever hear their effects on sound? I don't think so. If one hears diffences, then I'm affraid it is because of the placebo effect.
Jea48, It's obvious from your questions to Pauly that you have a complete command of the science involving outlet covers - at least I assume that all of the things that you bring up can affect the difference that different outlet covers can introduce into out systems.
Why don't you take a moment and enlighten us on the science involving outlet covers and how all of the variants you bring up can change the differences that they will introduce.
Oh, have you submitted your set up to such rigorous standards? Have you done blind tests? Or do you just hear a difference with your 'dog ears'.
Jea48, I guess you can credit my post to ignorance, interest, and a lack of civility that is becoming a far bigger component in posts about tweaks than the tweaks themselves. Your 'hearing' attack on Pauly was just the perverbial straw. There have been far more eggregious comments by others including Pauly and tgb.
If you don't answer my question thats OK. I'm too lazy to really undertake the suggested research so I guess I'll remain uniformed.
But perhaps you can tell me why folks have to decide whether other folks are deaf, ignorant/uneducated, or deluded depending on whether they are believers or athiests.
Albert is IMHO an outstanding advocate for his beliefs. I can't recall seeing him insult an adversary. He might even chose the time to walk away from an uncomfortable confrontation, IMHO a wise move. Why argue with some one you don't/can't respect. I don't, and I don't tell my enemies when their fly is open.
You are not going to change Pauly's opinion (nor is tgb) so whats the point of continuing. Those folks who feel as Pauly does will do so because its natural for them to do so not because of his articulate balanced presentation of his case. He is never IMHO going to bring any believers over to his side.
But, by way of example, I believe the manner in which the 'believers' present their case, such as have been pursued by posters like tbg as oppose to Albert can easily convert open minded (not pre-disposed) audiophiles to non-believers.
FWIW, IMHO, I feel better for saying 'a pox on both houses'.
Don't take my comments more personal than you deem necessary. "-)
+++ He is never IMHO going to bring any believers over to his side. +++
Hi Newbee. Seems I would have been terribly unsuccessful evangelist. ;-)
I have decided not to participate in this conversation mostly due to what you state. I think the fact that folks like Geoff Kait make no attempt at explaining their products, but defend their product by discrediting others, more than validate my opinion that they are frauds. (to me anyhow)
I have been involved in audio and electronics for a couple of decades now. Having had many erroneous beliefs (and still have many I suppose) and have had my mind opened by posters such as Ralph (Atmasphere) and Raul.
I look forward to posts from individuals with sound factual knowledge such as them as it almost always turns out to be a learning experience from me. For sure, from Norm, Geoff Kait and Jim there is nothing to be learned.
I think the answers to my question of whether tweaks work or are fraud both are yes. IMHO, and I think in everyone's humble opinions some work and others don't. Again in IMHO, one cannot judge a tweak by ones failure to understand how it works or even whether are not many others have found it beneficial. All that really matters is whether one finds it beneficial in ones own system. Given my personal experience, even within ones own system a tweak that works at one time may not at a later time, when your awareness brings to the fore its side effects or when something changes in your system.
As to whether some tweaks are frauds, again I would say the answer is yes. But I think that there are less costly tweaks that are designed to be inexpensive that to some offer little or no benefit. I have personally experiences many tweaks, some of which have no benefit for me but which others find beneficial, including some who I greatly respect. Are they frauds? I think not, although I even hear losses in using them.
Why did I introduce this thread? Because I do not think it is a simple issue of fraud or not., or work or not. I also think personal understanding of the physical principles involve is not a worth criterion for what is fraud and what is not. Scientists have often made such judgments about new ideas only to find later that the new ideas are correct and existing theories need to be altered.
Too often discussions of new components, Memory Player, or power cords, or tweaks discussions end up in what Newbee prefers to describe as "pissing contests." This is true in science also, but at least there most offer alternative explanations of what is going on. Fortunately, in audio it is merely whether or not to buy a tweak or componet. If one likes it, I cannot understand why anyone would argue they should not buy it, whether or not the critics understand how it works or have even personally found it useless.
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