Let's see: we've had the pebbles, the little clock, the turntable platform that includes only some old springs...and now the Contact Paper CD tweek. Do any of us believe in this? I know Geoff's an advertiser, and actually a very nice guy, but come on, fellow audiophiles...this is all the epitome of snake oil! No? Every idea was tried, and has failed, numerous times. Despite being a nice guy, all he's selling is audio nonsense.
I cannot believe that Agon with all the quality products that are available lets this charlatan sell his crap on this respected site, sorry but words escape me I am totally gob smacked that people actually buy this.
Give your cash to Greenpeace, Oxfam the Sally army.... Hell give it to the Republican Party.
But buy purchasing this crap on Agon only serves to lessen the credibility of the other guys selling cables for thousands of dollars
My dad used to say a fool and his money is soon parted and never was a truer word spoken.
Wow. How did I miss this thread? Unlike other tweaks in which an infinitessimaly small glimmer of audible improvement might be eeked out (according to the usual technobable), much of this MD stuff is really out there, I mean right "on the edge". Think a Flying, Talking Donkey!
No thanks just wanted to voice my frustration at some of the absolutely ludicrous claims that some members buy into.
While I realize that it none of my business what Joe spends his money on but to me it lessens the credibility of our hobby/passion.
Sell this stuff on fleabay but don't peddle it on this reputable site. ( A message to the powers that be why do you allow this nonsense)
And for those who will ask "Have you tried the Magic Pebbles, Rock Salt, Clocks, Calling me on the phone tweak" Majic CD paper" my answer is no I am not that daft.
Punkuk, give me a break, "it lessens the credibility of our hobby/passion." Credibility to whom? If you read any of my posts rather than what Audiofool and Tooly say, you would know that there are some of the MD products that I have found to have adverse impacts. I have not tried the clock, have used the Brilliant Pebbles but no longer as the interact with my preamp.
But it is the inherently anti-science closure that most offends me with the head in the sand ideas that you espoused. Science advances by observation and noting regularities and then seeking to explain them. But even more importantly, we are not really engaged in science on Audiogon or AudioAsylum, rather we are recounting personal experiences. I really don't care whether you will not try them or whether you do and don't hear any benefit. What really offense me is you and Tooly and Audiofool trying with no justification whatsoever to define what is worthwhile. It reminds me of the same fools in the past saying that an electron does not know what wire it passed through, which I first heard from a renown amp designer. Now such perspectives have been discredited.
Agreed punkuk. Anybody that thinks a telephone call can improve his sound has zero credibility and does not belong in the audio community. Their lack of intellect is an insult to all of us.
Tooly, this is utter nonsense. Go find some witches. Your lack of intellect is not only insulting to all of us but is grossly threatening to science and democracy. Fortunately, you have no authority or influence.
What a mess this has got into. I was reading each and every posts here and was giggling through all the way mainly for the sacarsm and exchange of words from both sides.
I believe this thread was once taken off from Audiogon but was reinstated last week or so?
Norm: If your nonsense could not easily be explained by the fact that you are, by your own admission, a compensated shill for Machina Dynamica, your dimwitted comments would be truly inexplicable.
"audiofool and tooly"? how clever you are. i'll bet that one cracks you up every time you read it.
This is quite laughable. A product is not deemed good or snake oil on the basis of whether it can be measured by some science method or not. Products should be based solely on whether our ears like the product or not.
When you audition cables its the same thing. What do I prefer or better yet do my ears prefer. Theres no science in it.
Same is with tweaks. Everyone has the right to let their ears determine and not some scientific method. This is listening to audio so no need to complicate things. We don't need a science degree but just ears that hear. In fact, I would trust my ears then some science geeks with a white lab coats and pocket protectors. I learned long ago not to trust their judgements.
Figure this one with science. If my electric goes down hundreds of miles of cable eventually through cheap romax. Why does a $2000 dollar power cord make any difference in improving the sound which we all have come to the knowledge finally that power cords make a difference. Science would seem to tell me that the power cord wont help which is why there where so many na sayers who laughed at expensive power cords in the beginning.
Freemand: I agree with your analysis. In the end, what ultimately matters is what the individual listener perceives. If, after putting an alarm clock in your room or having tones played over your phone or drinking a few glasses of Wild Irish Rose, you believe that your system sounds better, then it obviously was worth it to you. I don't think anyone disputes yours or Norm's or anyone else's experience (putting aside the obvious bias that arises when someone like Norm takes freebies, failes to disclose it, and then asserts publicly that they work).
Your analysis does not, however, address the issue of whether those "tweaks" have even a remote chance of helping others. If the point of this forum is to share experiences that may help others, it is important to separate tweaks that have no apparent explanation (which, more likely than not, induce a placebo effect that likely is not repeatable acrosss the population or even for an individual over time) and those that have some basis in rationale, scientific explanations (which are vastly more likely to have a similar effects on others' experiences).
Otherwise, Norm's anecodates about how little pebbles have changed his life are just that: cute, personal anecdotes that contribute nothing to the general understanding and improvement of the forum members' experiences.
Freemand +++ Why does a $2000 dollar power cord make any difference in improving the sound +++
A power cable can filter out RFI and EMI out of the power source, which results in a cleaner B+ voltage on the rails. That leads to better sound reproduction. Simple no?
+++ Science would seem to tell me that the power cord wont help +++
No, your lack of understanding of science tells you PC wonÂ’t help. The assumption that others share your lack of understanding is erroneous.
+++ Everyone has the right to let their ears determine and not some scientific method. +++
ItÂ’s a free country and you have the right to do whatever you want (if legal that is). However, that does not eliminate the possibility of placebo effect nor does it diminish the fact that every tweak that actually works has a perfectly plausible scientific reason for doing so.
+++ I would trust my ears then some science geeks with a white lab coats and pocket protectors. +++
Fortunately, I have enough understanding to know when said geeks with pocket protectors are frauds. I know a phone call cannot improve sound and I donÂ’t need to spend $75 dollars to find out.
This isn't about science or faith. It's about the gray area of plausibility.
If the latest tweak/craze involved wrapping up some dog s**t in aluminum foil and depositing it on top of your CD player, would you do it? I'd bet not, because it would cross the plausiblity threshold of nearly any sane person. Some would demand a bit of insight, and rightfully so. That is what is being alluded to as 'science' here. They (myself included) want some evidence that the claimed process, product or ritual is possible. Just a simple, plausible explanation, even sans conclusive proof. When that information is not forthcoming, most become suspicious. Again, rightfully so. Unfortunately Norm, MD products seem to set off the bulls**t detectors of many on this site, and the threshold of plausibility is breeched. Of course, it doesn't make them(us) right.
Having an open mind, or 'faith,' is the other side of this coin. Everyone has a certain amount of it, in various things. It is only interrupted by the same threshold of plausibility. How much confidence are you willing to invest in a tangible or conceptual thing without supporting evidence? If you hear an audible difference in your system, better or worse, brought forth by any kind of product, that doesn't make the difference real, nor the believer right.
The argument then lies not among two opposing sides afterall, because we all invest a certain amount of faith and demand a certain amount of evidence in our daily lives. It's a sliding scale that rests at a unique point for every individual.
P.S. I do find something wrong with being vindictive and petty in defending the indefensible. Neither side of this argument is 100% correct...
Loonytunz, you say, "The argument then lies not among two opposing sides afterall, because we all invest a certain amount of faith and demand a certain amount of evidence in our daily lives. It's a sliding scale that rests at a unique point for every individual." I agree. As I said long ago, when Geoff approached me to test his new phone treatment, I found it implasible. It took me some time to even have it explained that the phone itself was treated. I would not have bought it without a demonstration, but I seek evidence.
I learned some time ago after repeated experiences that some tweaks work and others do not, but that all lack really clear demonstrations of how they work.
"Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000) "
A crotchety old man was successfully convinced that his hearing and sound system improved after receiving a 30 second phone call. ("Baiting Norm" by Pauly, Audiogon Forum, August 31, 2007)
I have learned two things and thats about it with this forum. Some audio guys will trust their ears and don't need science and others that have to have an explanation. Its fine either way and no need to hammer one or the other.
Two, there are a certain number of people who seem determined and get off on trashing Geoff Kait.
I asked the na sayers numerous times about the clock winning the BRutus award and having great reviews by solid sources. It was always ignored cause it shows that Kait does have some good products as there seems to be a wanting to tear him down by some..
I will give you guys that the phone thing sounds a little out there, but how can I trash it with out trying it. Many say the clocks science does not make sense but the Brutus award says different.
I don't know Geoff personally nor have I ever worked with him but, I see a desire to trash a mans reputation when I see it. I respect you to not try the products and think they may not work for you, but the blatant trashing of a man??????
Freemand, in a prior response to you I submitted a plausible factual based argument why power cords can work. This is not to 'hammer' you, to coin your phrase, but simply to illustrate that the notion that workable tweak must somehow contradict science, is a false notion. Every workable tweak HAS a very sound and factual basis. In most cases, this can be EASILY explained, as is the case with power cords. There is no black magic in audio.
As far as GK goes. I have read some of his so called white papers. His explanations are contradictory to proven science, and have debunked all over the net. You can do a search on google. Whenever he has been challenged, including this forum, he has not started an factual debate, but resorted to insults, innuendo do and outright lies to discredit anybody that challenges his views. Interestingly, his little shills follow the same strategy.
So I have to ask, why does a person that designs a tweak not know how it works?
I cannot speak for the Brutus awards as I have never heard of them.
Tully, I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it.
Freemand, I have tried several times to broaden the issue here to other tweaks, but some persist in mocking MD. Why this is so I too cannot understand. What I do know is that these threads improve Mr. Kait's sales, so I do not worry about him or his reputation. The items are so inexpensive that I think many buy them just to see for themselves. If this is the case, my dismissing the naysayers serves my purpose in painting them as illogical, unscientific, autocratic, and presumptuous of their personal judgment.
Paul, I can understand you thoughts on it. In whole, Geoff has some of the most odd and unusual products out there which by default opens his products up to hammering on or in the very least, question marks.
I have not seen much else outside the audiogon world so I don't have as broad of an understanding how things are handled outside of this forum.
Geoff in some sense has become the poster child for audio geeks to poke fun at. I struggle with the tearing down and beating on the guy endlessly as if the mans not human.
I don't think an explanation of his products is not an unreasonable request and think it's where this whole frustration from audiophiles develops from which may be an area Geoff went wrong in.
I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it.
I knew it was just a matter of time until Norm resorted to a "my **** is bigger than yours" argument. For someone who shilling phone clicks, in the absence of any intelligent arguments, the ad hominum attcks are inevitable. But suggesting that someone can't afford to buy equipment as good as yours, Norm, is really crossing a line.
Time for you to take a refresher course on Audiogon posting guidelines and crawl back under your rock.
Sorry, Jeffrey, you not only quoted out of context but also misunderstand. I said, "I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it." Let me explain. If you fear your ears are deceiving you, all that you can have confidence in would be the cheapest gear.
Why don't you read more closely and stop putting words in my mouth. I am sorry if logic escapes you.
Why don't you get real. On some threads you appear rational. How come on others are a real jerk?
Getting back to the original question. Yes, I think the Brilliant pebbles are usefull.
You can purchase a x-large bottle for about $20+ on an auction. Placing 2-3 of these in your room helps dial in the soundstage and supports the bass response. Dont know why , but they do. Definatly a positive product to have. I had a bottle break and Geoff quickly replaced it.
Ok, norm. Let me see if I have it right this time. Your position is that, if we don't trust clicks on a phone might improve the sound of our audio equipmeny, we are worthy of only the cheapest equipment.
Sorry that I didn't have the intellectual capacity to understand such a compelling point the first time.
Good thing there are deep thinkers like you to keep the high end manufacturers in business.
Ozzy, watch out you will be called an idiot, a shill, or worse for saying that your personal experience suggests some benefit from the Brilliant Pebbles or any tweak for that matter. They think that misquoting and mockery wins the argument for them. Their behavior is like the schoolyard bully.
As I have said before my experience with the BPs initially was little impact but then with them more opportunely placed was quite favorable. Later with a new preamp, I have yet to find a placement where they do not detract from the sound. I suspect that they are so powerful that one needs to use them quite carefully.
Jeffrey, I guess I should be happy that you got it partially right. Given that you have a bias to misperceive everything that I say, this is all I can expect. Your apology is accepted.
Hey Jeffrey, best is to simply ignore Norm. He has zero technical knowledge, so there is absolutely nothing to learn from him.
Seemingly his political science background has given him ample training spinning the facts, insulting others and clouding the truth. Truth be told I skip over his posts because I couldn't be bothered the read the reams of BS he posts.
No, I am not going to flame you and I am glad the brilliant pebbles work for you. From Geoffs white paper, I see said pebbles absorb a wide range of audio signals and RFI and EMI signals.
(It also eludes that RFI and EMI signals act like low frequency audio signals which is not quite true, but lets leave that for now)
Many companies like RPG, ABS, GIK, Auralex, Acoustic Art etc. sell products with similar, albeit not so lofty, claims. These companies send their products in for testing at laboratories and then publish the results of said tests.
Do you not think that in light of many so many skeptics, GK could shut us up by simply having the pebbles tested and publishing the results. Measuring sound absorption is hardly rocket science.
Not true. He has extensive experience with Doppler preamplifiers, ceramic cables and a bunch of other loser products that hit the skids as soon as they hit the market. Science be damned!!!!!
Do a forum search and you'll see a history of somebody who changes system components as frequently as most of us change socks.
I'm not making this up. If you take the time it reads like a John Irving novel.
I can understand the wise comments , some of the comments are pretty humorous. The names of the items,(brilliant pebbles, clever clocks ,etc) seem to make them even more mysterious , strange and kinda ridiculous.
Ryder, I dont mean they increase the bass, my Andra 2's are great in that department. But, proper placement with these bottles in the room can help dial in the focus, allowing everything, including the bass to sound more defined and true. Its not a huge thing ,but an improvement neverless.
Perhaps the pebble materials are no more than anyone could gather themselves and put in a jar. I dont know, but for $20-$30 bucks they are pretty good. Good conversation pieces.
Now, what about those gold, silver or platiunum cups that sell for $$$$ that you hang on the wall ?
So if you have some extra time on your hands, you could visit the Machina Dynamica website. On the Teleportation Tweak page, Mr Kait introduces the product with a curious quote:
Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shores... Burning with the fires of Orc.
This is a quote from the movie Blade Runner, which itself quotes (with slight modification) a poem, America: A Prophecy, by William Blake. Both Blade Runner and Blake's poem have been interpreted as being anti-establishment, suggesting a need to return to the past in order to make progress. Adding to this "Back to the Future" theme, Kait uses a picture of an old-fashioned telephone to promote the Teleportation Tweak.
Any theories on what Mr Kait's message could mean? Is he rejecting modern audiophile wisdowm in favor of his own concepts? But then what is so "retro" about his approach? Perhaps the secret of the Teleportation Tweak lies in the answer to this riddle.
Great movie Blade Runner. One of those mind bending Philip K Dick stories - Ridley Scott did a great job on that movie. I don't like the voice over and apparentl ythey will fix this in the new Blu-Ray version in December (with 5.1 sound too)...
They fixed the voice over in the previous re re lease of the directors cut. All of those are previous to the re re re lease thats coming soon.. I do love this movie and its director. This movie is like this thread much the same rehash . Once in a generation there is some new distant connection made again thou certainly not from the myopic point of few. Tom
My only question is, why was this posted in "tech talk"? There is no "tech" to MD's placebo gee-gaws. If only 'Gon had a forum called "Suckers Club"...
I guess the answer to the base question of the thread is that some do not believe in any MD tweaks and some believe in some of them and these are people who have tried them.
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