Do we believe in Machina Dynamics?

Pauly, I have two pair, but no longer use one pair. I guess the "placebo effect" has worn off.

I imagine there are many who find some MD tweaks work and many who would never try them, and even a few who try them and find no benefit. One thing is certain on the MD tweaks as well as the Acoustic Revive tweaks, we get little inclining about why the work. Lacking this many will not try them, others will. There is no concensus nor anyone really available to convert to one position or the other. In short the discussion is a waste of time.

The critics' "physics" tends to be old and out-of-date and the "physics" of MD tends to be obscure.

Pauly, I don't want to go through this once again with you. I was a physics major, among other majors, in the 1960s. Physics today is quite different than then. I read Scientific American and have several friends in the Physics department. In reality, I doubt very much that you have any understanding of physics or the limitations on our knowledge of natural phenomena.

If something that fails to be explained by our limited knowledge, it is a challenge to our theories and understanding. Rejection of an observation that is contrary to a theory is a challenge to the theory and not to be dismissed as an accident or to be swept under the carpet and ignored.

You, my dear sir, are a pseudo-scientist.

Regards,

Norm

Paully, so once again I am right you haven't a clue about physical regularities or of the scientific methods. Please spare us your trite phrases and unscientifically based judgment without fact.

So, Pauly, you will castigate me for saying when it comes to audio buying decisions that I don't care how it works, and then for not having scientific "facts?" Damned if I do, and damned if I don't!

I have no obligation to provide you with what you call "facts" in your untrained lexicon of the scientific method.

I am sure you feel confident that you are immune from con-artists despite your ignorance of science. LOL!

Pauly, as before there is no benefit in discussions with you as you are ignorant of both logic and what science has to say about anything. You took offense that I noted on another thread that your having listened to the Adagios and bought them suggested that you do not always value factual basis for making audio choices. You are not always an idiot apparently. Live well and prosper!

Jimmdavis, as you know that is my position.

Okay, Pauly, let me try this again at a more sophomoric level.

"Lol. Let me repeat myself, 'Wow somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} “I am untroubled by not knowing how it works” is lecturing me' on science and logic.

"Pray tell us Norm, what is the logic and science in not wanting to understand?"

I never said anything about "not wanting to understand." If one hears something that improves ones sound, is it logical to say that you don't understand it and therefore it cannot be true? Even worse, if you don't try a product that others say works because you don't understand it, are you being rational or valuing the basic elements of the science to be receptive to new findings?

My position as always is that there is science involved in audio but mainly it is more applied engineering, which while explaining the basics, ignores many unknown phenomena. Engineering uses what we know to make things that work, but there are many improvements that could be made were our understanding better.

The very basis of science is observations, in this case listening to reproduced music. If one hears a speaker sound far superior, why not buy it? Science may ultimately explain why there is the improvement or others may reverse engineer it and use it themselves.

"Again, you are quite mistaken. (why am I not surprised?) I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis."

I admit that I confused you with someone else who claimed the same position and also found the Adagio speakers to sound much better. Both he and you claim only to buy given a personal understanding of the basis for the component being superior or working at all. Frankly, I think such statements are ridiculous. No one really knows why some caps sound so much better and therefore are used in many components, no one knows how to make the best sounding speaker, wire, electronics. Many try their ideas and some have success.

I therefore believe that you are wrong that all of your purchases are made with full factual knowledge about why they are superior to others. Frankly, you evidence very little capacity to do this.

Don't pat yourself too much on the back or be so dismissive of others who realize that they don't know why something they like works, but buy it nevertheless. You may avoid a tweak or component that really does not work, but you may be missing something that others have found good that you too would enjoy. Who is the worse for this?

If you find all of this illogical, I am sorry for you, but hey everyone somehow gets by. I am none the worse nor none the better for spending time in our unconstructive discussions, but I hope others can understand why I take such exception to those pronouncing that anything is a fraud because they personally cannot understand how it works.

Tooly, this is utter nonsense. Go find some witches. Your lack of intellect is not only insulting to all of us but is grossly threatening to science and democracy. Fortunately, you have no authority or influence.

Paul, I am glad that you agree that further discussion is useless. Enjoy your freedom from fraud.

Head in the sands idiots are everywhere.

Thank you. This coming from you means a lot to me.

The dog keeps barking.

Yap! Yap!

This is not for Jeffrey and Paul as I think they can go suck eggs. In the development of the Teleportation tweak, Geoff offer me an opportunity to try it. This was offered as I had bought 6 bottles of BPs and 2 ICs from him and he thought I was open-minded as I had removed the BPs presently finding them too hard to get to work with my present preamp. I agreed. Other than this I have no products as a result of supportive comments. Everyone should read my initial post where I said after much mockery and a heavily biased initial post by Jeffery on another thread, that I heard a benefit but it was subtle. I had already told Geoff that he would have a hard time selling this tweak, but he went ahead anyway. In answer to my question, Geoff did tell me that 100% of those trying the Teleportation tweak are quite happy with it. I have already suggested that Geoff sells more products as a result of threads such as this and the now dead one by Jeffrey. If they sell Geoff's products who are the scam artists? Perhaps both Jeffrey and Paul are friends of Geoff helping him sell the Teleportation tweak.

Okay guys are you really shills to help Geoff sell his products. Do you know Geoff and do you receive any remuneration for carping about fraud knowing full-well that it sells his products? I just find it difficult to believe that anyone could be as ignorant as these two guys.

Perhaps I should just ignore posts by those who seem to be utter fools, as I am merely helping Geoff, but I have taught research methods throughout my career and act against those, such as Jeffrey and Paul, who seem to believe they know everything and judge this to be a fraud without ever trying it, what I believe to be self-appointed Scam Police piss me off. Paul thinks it his responsibility to protect others from the defrauders, even though he knows not who they may be. They present themselves to be rational and scientific when in reality they are neither. They also think that mockery is valid to argument and discussion. Both probably had mothers who thought such arguments were cute. They were for 9 year olds; certainly not for adult men.

Please believe that I am selective in what I like from all sources, but if I find something I like, I am likely to say something. I do take strong exception to those I believe are pseudo-scientists and will continue to point out the ignorance and lack of logic.

I beg your forgiveness for taking this long to silence the barking lapdogs.

I must have really gotten to Pauly as he posted a "fraud alert" on another thread. I guess if you can not martial an argument you can yell "fire." Again, IMHO just because Pauly and Jeffrey cannot understand how it works or even if you cannot understand how it works, does not mean it does not work. I don't care really if you try the Teleportation tweak or not, but I have found it of benefit. Had I been presented with a money back offer, I would have tried it, but I don't think Geoff could undo what he has done.

One thing I do now know is that I for one would never value any personal experience that Pauly reports. I doubt his rationality and honesty.

Fatparrot,I agree entirely. But there have been others that are not MD tweaks. Checkout the H-Cat thread. They always involve the scam police and frequently me asking how dare they say what is a fraud. Also, there have been threads in the past involving whether power cords make a difference.

Punkuk, are you to be the judge?

Punkuk, give me a break, "it lessens the credibility of our hobby/passion." Credibility to whom? If you read any of my posts rather than what Audiofool and Tooly say, you would know that there are some of the MD products that I have found to have adverse impacts. I have not tried the clock, have used the Brilliant Pebbles but no longer as the interact with my preamp.

But it is the inherently anti-science closure that most offends me with the head in the sand ideas that you espoused. Science advances by observation and noting regularities and then seeking to explain them. But even more importantly, we are not really engaged in science on Audiogon or AudioAsylum, rather we are recounting personal experiences. I really don't care whether you will not try them or whether you do and don't hear any benefit. What really offense me is you and Tooly and Audiofool trying with no justification whatsoever to define what is worthwhile. It reminds me of the same fools in the past saying that an electron does not know what wire it passed through, which I first heard from a renown amp designer. Now such perspectives have been discredited.

I think the answers to my question of whether tweaks work or are fraud both are yes. IMHO, and I think in everyone's humble opinions some work and others don't. Again in IMHO, one cannot judge a tweak by ones failure to understand how it works or even whether are not many others have found it beneficial. All that really matters is whether one finds it beneficial in ones own system. Given my personal experience, even within ones own system a tweak that works at one time may not at a later time, when your awareness brings to the fore its side effects or when something changes in your system.

As to whether some tweaks are frauds, again I would say the answer is yes. But I think that there are less costly tweaks that are designed to be inexpensive that to some offer little or no benefit. I have personally experiences many tweaks, some of which have no benefit for me but which others find beneficial, including some who I greatly respect. Are they frauds? I think not, although I even hear losses in using them.

Why did I introduce this thread? Because I do not think it is a simple issue of fraud or not., or work or not. I also think personal understanding of the physical principles involve is not a worth criterion for what is fraud and what is not. Scientists have often made such judgments about new ideas only to find later that the new ideas are correct and existing theories need to be altered.

Too often discussions of new components, Memory Player, or power cords, or tweaks discussions end up in what Newbee prefers to describe as "pissing contests." This is true in science also, but at least there most offer alternative explanations of what is going on. Fortunately, in audio it is merely whether or not to buy a tweak or componet. If one likes it, I cannot understand why anyone would argue they should not buy it, whether or not the critics understand how it works or have even personally found it useless.

Sorry, I posted this on the wrong thread.

Jeffrey, you bet, yah! I see you also are dimwitted.

Freemand has said it well.

Loonytunz, you say, "The argument then lies not among two opposing sides afterall, because we all invest a certain amount of faith and demand a certain amount of evidence in our daily lives. It's a sliding scale that rests at a unique point for every individual." I agree. As I said long ago, when Geoff approached me to test his new phone treatment, I found it implasible. It took me some time to even have it explained that the phone itself was treated. I would not have bought it without a demonstration, but I seek evidence.

I learned some time ago after repeated experiences that some tweaks work and others do not, but that all lack really clear demonstrations of how they work.

Tully, I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it.

Freemand, I have tried several times to broaden the issue here to other tweaks, but some persist in mocking MD. Why this is so I too cannot understand. What I do know is that these threads improve Mr. Kait's sales, so I do not worry about him or his reputation. The items are so inexpensive that I think many buy them just to see for themselves. If this is the case, my dismissing the naysayers serves my purpose in painting them as illogical, unscientific, autocratic, and presumptuous of their personal judgment.

Sorry, Jeffrey, you not only quoted out of context but also misunderstand. I said, "I am sorry the threat of perception bias, what you call the placebo effect, keeps you from buying anything, less your ears deceive you. I guess all you can do is buy the cheapest gear and enjoy it." Let me explain. If you fear your ears are deceiving you, all that you can have confidence in would be the cheapest gear.

Why don't you read more closely and stop putting words in my mouth. I am sorry if logic escapes you.

Why don't you get real. On some threads you appear rational. How come on others are a real jerk?

Ozzy, watch out you will be called an idiot, a shill, or worse for saying that your personal experience suggests some benefit from the Brilliant Pebbles or any tweak for that matter. They think that misquoting and mockery wins the argument for them. Their behavior is like the schoolyard bully.

As I have said before my experience with the BPs initially was little impact but then with them more opportunely placed was quite favorable. Later with a new preamp, I have yet to find a placement where they do not detract from the sound. I suspect that they are so powerful that one needs to use them quite carefully.

Jeffrey, I guess I should be happy that you got it partially right. Given that you have a bias to misperceive everything that I say, this is all I can expect. Your apology is accepted.

I guess the answer to the base question of the thread is that some do not believe in any MD tweaks and some believe in some of them and these are people who have tried them.

More bull shit by audiofool. Reading his endless misinformed and mocking style is like getting a root-channel. It is not recommended.

Ironically, there is a patent for a root-channel, but I meant root-canal. Sorry!

Jeffrey, what is the evidence behind your "vastly overpay" statement? And is the Detroit Lion fan comment anything but ad hominem? I guess this is your usual meaningless attack.

Jeffrey, sorry I hit a nerve by pointing out your typical meaningless posts. By the way a rationale is a liturgical vestment worn by clergy, in particular by Bishops, in the Roman Catholic Church which uses full vestments. wikipedia Perhaps you do view yourself as a bishop, although others know you are incapable of anything more than mocking others. You make unfounded statements with no backing. Grow up!

Is there anyone here that doesn't believe that Tooly is totally ignorant and trying to persuade people that they should not just let their ears decide for them? I just want to know who appointed Tooly, Audiofool, and Jeffrey to police their interests in improving their audio?

Samuel, a long time ago I agreed with several who emailed me that I should just stop posting on another thread. I have tried, but unsuccessfully. I guess it is because those who I respond to claim to be representative of science and I think they pretend to be only. Even Geoff does enter into this exchange, although it is not just his tweaks that motivate my postings. The end.