Do we believe in Machina Dynamics?

Norm, let rephrase correctly.

The critics' "physics" tends to be real physics, the "physics" of MD tends to be zero factual basis and believed only by the ignorant and gullible.

The ignorant have little problem believing MD (lack of) physics as they have no understanding of real physics. To them, sound tweaks like audio cable and total snake oil like pebbles seem to have the same factual basis. They are the individuals that folks like GK can exploit. You, Jim and a few other folks demonstrate a high degree of lack of understanding. Even now, you probably do not have a good understanding as to why some power cables may improve sound.

Once understanding of the physics behind tweaks is achieved, it is very easy to discriminate between what will work and what is placebo. There is no black magic in audio ... there never was, there never will be and the sure isn't any now.

The fact that you think that some aspects of physics is in some way out of date demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what science is about.

Regards
Paul

+++ Their physics are no less sound than those behind most tweaks and cables and they have smarter guys coming up with product names. +++

LOL - a little clock or pebbles have the same factual basis for improving sound as a speaker cable? Okaaaay.

+++ I was a physics major, among other majors, in the 1960s +++

Good for you Norm, you have a bachelors degree. My secretary has an MBA.

+++ In reality, I doubt very much that you have any understanding of physics or the limitations on our knowledge of natural phenomena. +++

Yep, and Geoff K is so way ahead of me, I just don’t know what I am missing?

+++ Rejection of an observation +++

I have yet to reject the findings of observation even once in my life.

Two weeks I tested a SS, wooden and plastic outlet cover plates back to back. Observation = zero difference.

So far from being swept under the carpet, the so-called cover plate tweak is nothing other than crap.

+++ You, my dear sir, are a pseudo-scientist. +++

LOL, coming from somebody that spends $1K on holograms and supports Machina Dynamics, you must forgive me for not taking that comment seriously.

There’s an old saying Norm, a fool and his money is easily parted. Old Geoff parts you with your money with little trouble.

Regards
Paul

Wow, somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} “I am untroubled by not knowing how it works” is lecturing me on scientific method.

+++ Please spare us your trite phrases and unscientifically based judgment without fact +++

LOL, without fact you say Norm? Pray tell me, what “facts” do you have? The ones you don’t know about?

I am still waiting to hear whether you know why power cables can improve sound. But I guess that is just one of the “facts” that you don’t have, isn’t it. I understand now why we have folks like Kait around … the temptation to fleece folks like you must be difficult to resist.

Regards
Paul

+++ So, Pauly, you will castigate me for saying when it comes to audio buying decisions that I don't care how it works, and then for not having scientific "facts?" +++

No, I castigate you for eluding I bask in the same ignorance you do. You’re the one that brought up scientific method, remember Norm?

I understand perfectly well why the “tweaks” I have in my system work and am happy to explain each and every one. I am equally comfortable explaining why some will not work.

+++ I am sure you feel confident that you are immune from con-artists despite your ignorance of science. +++

Yep, there you go again – on queue. Just how much did you pay for a couple of wooden sticks, which have zero factual nor any proven merit? $1000 right?

+++ LOL! +++

Amazing how that additional 21st chromosome you have makes you laugh even when you have been taken to the tune of $1000 for some $5 worth of wooden sticks. I would have been really angry at myself.

Regards
Paul

+++ you are ignorant of both logic and what science has to say about anything+++

Lol. Let me repeat myself, 'Wow somebody that says {and I quote verbatim} “I am untroubled by not knowing how it works” is lecturing me' on science and logic.

Pray tell us Norm, what is the logic and science in not wanting to understand?

+++ You took offense that I noted on another thread that your having listened to the Adagios and bought them +++

I have no idea what an Adagios is. Again you seem to elude I am the same dummy you are. I am beginning to suspect that you have a problem dealing with people that are intellectually your superiors.

+++ suggested that you do not always value factual basis for making audio choices.+++

Again, you are quite mistaken. (why am I not surprised?) I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis.

+++ You are not always an idiot apparently +++

I'm never the idiot Norm. Even the times I do something foolish, folks like yourself make me look like a genius.

+++ Live well and prosper! +++

Oh, I do live well and I am prosperous (within reason), mainly because I don't throw money away on snake oil and vapor-ware like you do. But thank you for the kind sentiments.

Regards
Paul

+++ I've no problem allowing for physical phenomena whose mechanism we've yet to understand and quantify.+++

Of course. However, we can apply a certain level of reason. If a tweak can effect, lets say vibration or acoustics, we can assume a high probability that it can work, especially if the company has a proven track record.

None of machina dynamics tweaks are even close to being plausible and I have read numerous posting of their tweaks being nothing other that scams. Surely at least one or two of their tweaks should be understood and accepted by the general audiophile public at large by now – but they're not.

The only proponents of MA are folks, who with without exception, claim that they do not understand how tweaks work in general. Out of total ignorance, they make no distinction between tweaks with reasonable chance of having sound factual basis and those that are totally w/o any level of reason.

Regards
Paul

Hi Jeffrey. I suspect you are correct. Looking at Norms posts, it is evident that we have more than plain ignorance at work. For a while now I have suspected that he is part of the scheme to defraud audiophiles.

Regards
Paul

Agreed punkuk. Anybody that thinks a telephone call can improve his sound has zero credibility and does not belong in the audio community. Their lack of intellect is an insult to all of us.

Regards
Paul

+++ If one hears something that improves ones sound, is it logical to say that you don't understand it and therefore it cannot be true? +++

Nope, and had I actually said as much I would have been wrong. Of course, eluding I had made comments that I didn’t to prove your point, is no less than outright lying and demonstrates lack of character on your behalf.

+++ if you don't try a product that others say works because you don't understand it, are you being rational +++

Second time in two sentences you are eluding to something other than the truth. I don’t blame you though; with a case as weak as yours, I’d be tempted to be deceitful too.

I reject MA products sight unseen because they lack any form of credibility and their offerings lie far outside what can be considered scientifically reasonable to have an effect on audio. I doubt that anybody with any engineering background or experience in electronics thinks otherwise.

MA as a company also has a track record of being fraudulent and I found numerous posts where their products have been exposed as vaporware.

I am happy to try any product if a reasonable explanation, backed by physics and/or research can be produced.

+++ The very basis of science is observations, in this case listening to reproduced music. If one hears a speaker sound far superior, why not buy it? +++

This comment has zero relevance to the topic and by no means contrary to even a single posting I have made on this bulletin board.

+++ Both he and you claim only to buy given a personal understanding of the basis for the component being superior or working at all +++

You come up with this comment after I said {and I quote myself verbatim} “I have yet to make a single purchase not based on sound factual basis”. Yet again, you demonstrate a high degree of deceit in a vain attempt to gain credibility. I have bought a number of things w/o personal understanding, but these items were always based on sound physics. Maybe you need to take an English language class?

+++ Frankly, I think such statements are ridiculous.+++

Yes, I think so too. You’re the one that made it and I am glad you recognize yourself as ridiculous. But then, spending $1000 on $5 dowel sticks does indicate a very irrational personality worthy of ridicule.

+++ I hope others can understand why I take such exception to those pronouncing that anything is a fraud because they personally cannot understand how it works.+++

Yes, in some cultures animals are sacrificed to bring on rains and good harvest. They also take great offense when the practice is exposed as fraud. I mistakenly assumed education would eliminate such ignorance but you have proven me wrong.

Regards
Paul

+++ Paul, I am glad that you agree that further discussion is useless. +++

A somewhat bewildering statement to make by someone that started threads on the very same topic under another forum.

Regards, and mind you don’t cut your fingers when you slaughter the goat.
Paul

LOL, you mean spending $200 on a $1.99 clock to improve my sound will mean my head in not in the sand? Or how about $75 on a phone call to hear a 1980's modem? Or how about $160 for some rocks I can pick up for free next to the road? Man, you're sure are smart Norm ...

+++ Thank you. This coming from you means a lot to me +++

I know Norm, and you are most welcome. I thank you for your participation. I just love goading with the mentally handicapped.

+++ The dog keeps barking +++

You can always divorce her Norm ...

Hi Albert, I am referring to the shakti holographs that Norm dropped $1K on. They're not MD products but rely on the same placebo effect.

Regards
Paul

+++ He is never IMHO going to bring any believers over to his side. +++

Hi Newbee. Seems I would have been terribly unsuccessful evangelist. ;-)

I have decided not to participate in this conversation mostly due to what you state. I think the fact that folks like Geoff Kait make no attempt at explaining their products, but defend their product by discrediting others, more than validate my opinion that they are frauds. (to me anyhow)

I have been involved in audio and electronics for a couple of decades now. Having had many erroneous ‘beliefs’ (and still have many I suppose) and have had my mind opened by posters such as Ralph (Atmasphere) and Raul.

I look forward to posts from individuals with sound factual knowledge such as them as it almost always turns out to be a learning experience from me. For sure, from Norm, Geoff Kait and Jim there is nothing to be learned.

Regards
Paul

Second Punkuk to be judge.

Freemand +++ Why does a $2000 dollar power cord make any difference in improving the sound +++

A power cable can filter out RFI and EMI out of the power source, which results in a cleaner B+ voltage on the rails. That leads to better sound reproduction. Simple no?

+++ Science would seem to tell me that the power cord wont help +++

No, your lack of understanding of science tells you PC won’t help. The assumption that others share your lack of understanding is erroneous.

+++ Everyone has the right to let their ears determine and not some scientific method. +++

It’s a free country and you have the right to do whatever you want (if legal that is). However, that does not eliminate the possibility of placebo effect nor does it diminish the fact that every tweak that actually works has a perfectly plausible scientific reason for doing so.

+++ I would trust my ears then some science geeks with a white lab coats and pocket protectors. +++

Fortunately, I have enough understanding to know when said geeks with pocket protectors are frauds. I know a phone call cannot improve sound and I don’t need to spend $75 dollars to find out.

Regards
Paul

The power of Placebo

"Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000) "

A crotchety old man was successfully convinced that his hearing and sound system improved after receiving a 30 second phone call. ("Baiting Norm" by Pauly, Audiogon Forum, August 31, 2007)

Freemand, in a prior response to you I submitted a plausible factual based argument why power cords can work. This is not to 'hammer' you, to coin your phrase, but simply to illustrate that the notion that workable tweak must somehow contradict science, is a false notion. Every workable tweak HAS a very sound and factual basis. In most cases, this can be EASILY explained, as is the case with power cords. There is no black magic in audio.

As far as GK goes. I have read some of his so called white papers. His explanations are contradictory to proven science, and have debunked all over the net. You can do a search on google. Whenever he has been challenged, including this forum, he has not started an factual debate, but resorted to insults, innuendo do and outright lies to discredit anybody that challenges his views. Interestingly, his little shills follow the same strategy.

So I have to ask, why does a person that designs a tweak not know how it works?

I cannot speak for the Brutus awards as I have never heard of them.

Regards
Paul

Hey Jeffrey, best is to simply ignore Norm. He has zero technical knowledge, so there is absolutely nothing to learn from him.

Seemingly his political science background has given him ample training spinning the facts, insulting others and clouding the truth. Truth be told I skip over his posts because I couldn't be bothered the read the reams of BS he posts.

Regards
Paul

Hi Ozzy

No, I am not going to flame you and I am glad the brilliant pebbles work for you. From Geoffs white paper, I see said pebbles absorb a wide range of audio signals and RFI and EMI signals.

(It also eludes that RFI and EMI signals act like low frequency audio signals which is not quite true, but lets leave that for now)

Many companies like RPG, ABS, GIK, Auralex, Acoustic Art etc. sell products with similar, albeit not so lofty, claims. These companies send their products in for testing at laboratories and then publish the results of said tests.

Do you not think that in light of many so many skeptics, GK could shut us up by simply having the pebbles tested and publishing the results. Measuring sound absorption is hardly rocket science.

Regards
Paul

Is there anybody on the thread that doesn’t think Norm is a total ass?

Dude, go rent a date or something ...