Do tubes matter beyond gain stage on preamp?

I was gonna become a Chip and Dale but it cost ME to much.

I think it's the tooth (s) or maybe the 1/2 ear that's missing. My glass eye or peg leg, shouldn't be a problem.. The Haiti appendage upgrade did help, bargain-basement price too.. :-)

The price of circumcision doubled? How's does the cost double? Just sayin'

Regards

Heavy…i was mostly joking…as you no doubt know vintage 240 prices are sky high…

I have my own not for profit museum…you probably have me beat…

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7106#&gid=1&pid=6

Enjoy retirement, i had to pick up some board work to stay out of trouble….

@oldhvymec. Congratulations on retirement? I retired about three or four years ago. Loved my job, also loved all my outside interests. It has been enjoyable, but strange. Most of the folks I know say it takes five years to get used to it. Sounds like you better buckle up… it’s going to be a wild ride.

So do you jack it up, or let it settle to an engineered position? Need to take bets on the cost over runs. I say 300,000,000.00

Heavy - next time you find a MC240 for $1,100 buy it for me…..

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well is it for you or is it for profit? I bought for pure profit from a garage sale.. He had 15 Dual TT if he had one.

I have 1 MC225, 2 MC240, 2 MC275, 2 MC60s (24k gold cases) a pair of MX110z, 2 C20, 1 C11, C2500, MX120, MX121, MX150

You need a good looking amp, untouched I have three almost unblemished 9.0 - 9.6 or better? MC225, MC240, MC275 and a MX110z.

The MX110z and MC225 are two of the best I’ve ever seen.. including NEW in the box.. Never touched original Mcintosh valves. RCA Black plate and Telefunken

I have better stock than most dealers.. Usually. I just HATE dealing with chicken $hit customers.. JUST HATE it..

You want to buy a watch Mister? I got watches.. Step into my Boutique Shop (side of a 68 VW bus). :-)

I just signed on the dotted line to officiate my official retirement, through my Unions. Teamsters and OE. Happy days fellas..

I’m looking for a job.. I can’t stand retirement.. I want some one screaming at me in a foreign language.. Cussing. Poppin’ pills, drinkin on the job, living on Pepto - Bismol. I just want to be the one making that happen.. :-)

What did you mean the building is listing 10 degrees, it was your idea.. SF 110 story building SINKING!!!

I told you ships list, Skyscrapers, TIP, you should have listened.. Engineers!! :-)

Regards

If you add something to nothing you would have something instead of this nothing

Not sure why power supply tubes in a preamp impact harmonics?  Maybe cause it cleans up power.  If input components, eg streamer/phonostage, connected to preamp all have great power supply than preamp power tubes would seem less important.

what i find interesting are the designers who are capable of working w both…. two come to mind … Vandersteen and Aesthetix..there are a lot more if we throw the use of FET as front end to tube phono stages, many many more….. 

@noromance yes! i have same neon and swap was meaningful, there are two “ hidden “ FET in my RS

Shall, I send it your way for the cold midwinter ?

@emergingsoul said: "So better to have a couple tubes vs no tubes.

ie. Harmonic distortion is highly desirable vs flat ss."

I'm not sure I agree with that broad an approach. You can discuss euphonies and take it to an extreme, but not all tube equipment sounds like tubes. And contrariwise, I had a line stage with a solid state audio path in one chassis and a tube rectified power supply in another. I did not sound like solid state. 
If this is just to chat about tube properties being less desirable, I'm not your guy. 

Heavy - next time you find a MC240 for $1,100 buy it for me…..

of course, a lot of the magic are those lovely high bandwidth output transformers….

well, if i had a client with a tight budget, i would advise gain stage first….but in my experience they all matter eventually as ratchet up performance across the system.

Can hardly wait to get the tube power supply for my….wait for it….direct drive turntable….

It depends on the topology of the preamp, as to how many tubes are used. 

jperry, how r u?  Even if made up it would be good, its not. So add somethin or go away.

@dekay 

+1 but don't expect a troll to provide details of a made up comment.

So better to have a couple tubes vs no tubes.

ie. Harmonic distortion is highly desirable vs flat ss.

ashame they dont insert tubes in an av processor.  I run av sound thru a tube pre and it sounds incredible.  

Short answer: it's not a yes/no answer, they do vs. they don't, it's a question of percentages.

Long answer: it's impossible to generalize.  Almost every tube preamp is going to have a different design/topology.  Depending on a number of variable factors, you can make a preamp that uses just two tubes + ss that sounds better than one using eight or twelve, and vice versa is also true.

As 3-e-p says, beyond this you're getting into design philosophies that different designers hold up as being the best (or which suits them best).

All these comments indicating "everything matters" are correct but they are missing the essence of the OP's question I believe.  He wants to know why many of the higher end preamp designs only use a pair of gain stage 6922's for instance while a manufacturer like Cary or Manley will use an all-tube design with pairs of input, driver, and output tubes combined into the design. I think it's an interesting question and suspect their are schools of design in play here as well as cost of components.  

+1 @dekay

Which tube dealers told you that? They're either manipulating you for some reason, or they don't really know what they're doing.

A list of who said something that incompetent would be a service to all of us.

Waiting to hear.

"Tube dealers confide that tubes beyond gain stage dont meaningfully impact sound, saying its what people want so its done."

Please post details of the "tube dealers" who told you this.

“Everything matters”

True that! 

@ebm 

+1

Everything matters.

I swapped out a neon voltage reference tube and it had a profound impact on the sound. So, yes, all tubes influence the sound.

This may only have indirect relevance to your question,@emergingsoul, but I’ve been playing with different rectifiers for the power supply to my phono stage, an Allnic. Right now, I have a Mullard (really a Philips) metal base GZ 34 and a GEC u52 that I’ve been swapping in and out. Significant difference in sound between those two tubes. The metal base has incredible bass and dynamics but is slightly flat sounding in the high frequencies. The GEC (which I have used in the past) does not have the impact of the Mullard, but has far more finesse in the upper registers. I think the choice may come down to how the rest of the system is voiced. Given how my system is presently "tuned" the GEC is my preference.

Do power valves impact the sound? Very much. Low gain stage amps normally have a lower noise floor. That’s the reason why.

Macs, you better pay attention to the small valves. Every step up is a potential to amplify noise to the next stage from ALL those before.. The power valves take it one step beyond.

Power valves reveal every mistake or noise up to that point.. SO add a set of poorly matched or manufactured power valves, to an already noisy preamp section. It can get ugly!
I’ve purchased amps just for that reason and the fix was "matching valves" ONBOARD already.

Do just the opposite, paying attention to matching, balancing, and checking for noisy or vibration prone valves, you’ll appreciate a great valve amp vs hating a noisy pile of CRAP.

There are guys like ME buying perfectly good valve amps at 1/3 the cost.. I bought a MC240 for 1100.00 two years ago. I swapped some valves ONBOARD and replaced one 12BH7 (?) It was a weird one that usually don’t go bad. It sounded like it had a fresh rebuild.. I even offered to sell it back for the 100.00 I spent.. "A deal is a deal", OK I offered..

Chicken feeding time....

Regards

Not sure what you mean? All tubes matter.