Do pistons in an internal combustion engine have directionality?
La meme chose.
La meme chose.
Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
I have heard some say that speaker cables do need a 'burn in', and some say that its totally BS.
What say you?
What say you?
1,164 responses Add your response
azbrd @geoffkait >>>>Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You don’t need to be concerned with any signal travel in the “opposite direction,” only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow? This is the pseudoscience I'm calling you on, an AC circuit (what connects a amp to a speaker) does NOT behave as you are implying! DC circuits DO behave as you describe. Please stop trying to push your Star Trek science on these forums! >>>>There are only two possibilities. 1. You don’t know what directionality means. 2. You don’t know what AC means. Beam yourself up, Scotty! |
| Post removed |
@geoffkait @hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? >>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. I thought you were pushing "contact enhancers" to fix this? Or maybe it was Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles? I can't remember. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. If the new cables where NOT broken in then we all should have been able to hear a huge difference between the new cables and the 1000 hour cables according to you. NONE of us heard ANY differences, no matter which direction we ran the cables! 3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction. 4. As has been pointed out many times cables don’t get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient. 5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there. I'm using 10g wires with excellent resistance/capacitance/inductance specks. Please document what constitutes sufficient quality other than those metrics. 6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? Well, you show me yours and I will show you mine! 7. There are errors in the system. What type of errors in a AC circuit 8. The test subjects’ hearing is not all it’s cracked up to be. Two of use are engineers and one is a professional musician who has also mastered many CDs. 9. Differences were masked by “outside conditions” - weather, time of day, unknown causes. Yep, i checked. it was a high sun spot day! 10. Test subjects were drunk. you have got to be kidding???? |
@geoffkait >>>>Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You don’t need to be concerned with any signal travel in the “opposite direction,” only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow? This is the pseudoscience I'm calling you on, an AC circuit (what connects a amp to a speaker) does NOT behave as you are implying! DC circuits DO behave as you describe. Please stop trying to push your Star Trek science on these forums! |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Total snake oil and it’s been proven! Burn in is totally psychologically even though those who believe in it wont ever admit it. I could fool each and every one of them in a blind listening test! I’ve been to a few and NOBODY ever could tell the difference. A few so called golden ear audiophiles got mad and said it was rigged even though they let us inspect everything before and after the test. They had an electrical engineer explain to us all about the signal that travels along the speaker cable and how it doesnt change over time unless the cable is damaged in some sort of way. They also proved how sight has a lot to do with percieved hearing. Two of the exact same cables with different jacket colors made people think they heard a difference. It was an interesting afternoon. |
azbrd @geoffkait I was waiting for you to chime in! >>>>>I was waiting for your reaction. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. So now you are moving the new cable to old cable discussion to the electrical/mechanical connections? would this mean we need to unplug our wires every time to get to audio nirvana?? >>>>>I’m not sure we’re on the same page here. It means you can’t judge the new cables until they’ve been seated for a week. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. So >1000 of actual use is not enough to "break in" a cable??? >>>>>>>Read what I said again. The short answer is no. Please provide us with the measurable, repeatable documentation on how to properly break in a wire! >>>>Why, are you volunteering? 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. this is my favorite geoffkait claim right up there with Dark Matter Optical Coating and his Teleportation Tweak! Just for fun I called several cable companies and asked them to sell me wires that were directional. >>>>Sorry about that, there are quite a few backward cable companies around apparently. ALL of them politely laughed and explained that wire does NOT have any directional property. I personally reversed the wires during our listening test and could not hear any differences. >>>>If milk didn’t squirt out of their noses it doesn’t count. If you were the one conducting the test it certainly makes sense you couldn’t hear anything. Is there anything you can hear? Just curious. 😛 Look inside your speakers or amps, see if there is any wires in there with little arrows on them OR is there ANY documentation from these companies to advise one which direction your cables should be when connecting them?? >>>>That’s a shame since all wire is directional. Oh, well, whaddya gonna do? 😳 |
azbrd @geoffkait I forgot to ask, please provide us some actual (not from Audioquest) documentation on how wire directionality applies to an AC circuit? >>>>Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You don’t need to be concerned with any signal travel in the “opposite direction,” only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow? |
I believe the content of this thread has reached a level of metaphysical drivel that I find untenable. So, before I retreat to the comfort of the informed discussion on AudioKarma, I ask the new or casual reader to heed these few tips: DO NOT purchase expensive power cords, interconnect cables, "spikes", or any other grossly overpriced darlings of the failing HiFi marketing establishment. If you already have a system of any reasonable quality, you will be very disappointed with the impact of any perceived improvement from these marketing ploys. Instead, put your resources (not necessarily money) into improvements to your listening room. I can not think of one area more neglected than listening room acoustics. In 95% of the systems I have heard, for some reason, form will out over function... leaving the components, especially the speakers, in acoustically undesirable locations. INSPECT YOUR SPEAKERS. I recently refurbished a pair of B&W 703 speakers. The proud owner had no idea that there were any issues at all until I noticed (through his open patio door) a clear disparity between the channels in the mid-range. What I found on close inspection was an open circuit (bad capacitor) in the crossover. This was a worse case situation, having a non-functional driver and not being aware of the problem, but it points out that these machines need periodic attention. Keep them clean. Nothing will destroy a set of fine speakers faster than dirt. Drivers move a substantial amount of air in a days use and dirt pumped between the voice coil and pole-piece will make short work of any driver. KEEP YOUR INTERCONNECT AND SPEAKER CABLE CONNECTIONS CLEAN AND TIGHT. Bad connections will not only cause a loss in amplitude and audio quality but, this problem can actually damage your equipment. Class A devices MUST operate into a load at all times. If the load is removed for any length of time... your output transformers will perish! DO NOT AQUIRE ANYTHING YOU HAVE NOT AUDITIONED FIRST! This should be self explanatory. And, if at all possible, audition a new device in your own home, with your own system. Best of Luck Everyone, LEO |
@geoffkait I was waiting for you to chime in! 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. So now you are moving the new cable to old cable discussion to the electrical/mechanical connections? would this mean we need to unplug our wires every time to get to audio nirvana?? 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. So >1000 of actual use is not enough to "break in" a cable??? Please provide us with the measurable, repeatable documentation on how to properly break in a wire! 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. this is my favorite geoffkait claim right up there with Dark Matter Optical Coating and his Teleportation Tweak! Just for fun I called several cable companies and asked them to sell me wires that were directional. ALL of them politely laughed and explained that wire does NOT have any directional property. I personally reversed the wires during our listening test and could not hear any differences. Look inside your speakers or amps, see if there is any wires in there with little arrows on them OR is there ANY documentation from these companies to advise one which direction your cables should be when connecting them?? |
azbrd @hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? >>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. 3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction. 4. As has been pointed out many times cables don’t get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient. 5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there. 6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences. 7. There are errors in the system. 8. The test subjects’ hearing is not all it’s cracked up to be. 9. Differences were masked by “outside conditions” - weather, time of day, unknown causes. 10. Test subjects were drunk. |
@hifiman5 I did not want to get into the details of how the cables were switched, ie blind or not but since you brought it up. One of us would switch (or not switch) the cables when the other two were in another room. When the switch was completed they would return to their exact seating position and the same track at the same volume was played. None of us could accurately say which of the cable sets were in use because both sets sounded the same. To repeat, we were comparing cables with >1000 hours of use to BRAND NEW cables, my take on this is that cable 'break-in' is a myth and that no-one has ever been able to show that there is any scientific justification to the claim, nor shown or measured that the performance has changed in any way. I would suggest that cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener, not in the cable. |
@azbrd . I am sorry to hear that you and your friends were unable to hear cable differences. If you were swapping them in and out of the system, it would be difficult to perceive. As anecdotal testimony from many who post here demonstrates, burn in and settling time affect the cable's sound. If you were switching the cables in and out in a non blind test, the switching would obfuscate the differences. "Dynamic swing" means to me a rhythmic and dynamic life to music. The classic reference to "it got my foot tapping". It, at least for me, is an essential quality of musical immersion and enjoyment. |
@lanceo . Who is my hero? If you are referring to Toynbee I don't consider him to be heroic but the quotes you cited are obviously true. Rome wasn't killed by externals. Their own cultural degradation led to so great a devaluation of humanity that they did commit suicide. Check out the current suicide rates in the West especially among the younger citizens. Sad stuff. Regarding the human mind. Science will never"contain" it. Science doesn't explain the pleasure of viewing a beautiful work of art or more relevant here, beautiful sounding music. It can't tell me why I prefer Shostakovich to Mahler. I respect your engineering expertise but for your sake, don't let it limit your humanity. |
@erik_squires : Much different situations effecting the changes in these devices: Speakers, being electromechanical devices, will change continuously (usually for the worse). I remember an old Western Electric film (yes film, not a video) showing slow motion photography of an operating speaker. It clearly showed how the driver's cone rippled and distorted throughout each excursion (even at low amplitudes). It's no wonder that over time the light cone materials become less ridged and far less efficient at moving air. Capacitors have been found to change in several ways: actual capacitance value can change due to physical changes in the shape of the dielectric material (the capacitor may swell) or because of changes in the properties of the dielectric, generally caused by decomposition due to heat-induced chemical changes. The latter problem is especially inherent to the paper dielectric material found in those boutique audio capacitors we are so fond of. Another change capacitors are prone to is leakage of DC current. This problem, due to such things as chemical changes caused by the breakdown of the adhesives in the dielectric, will (over time) cause the capacitor to conduct enough DC current to cause changes elsewhere in the circuit. This is especially troublesome when coils, like output transformers, crossover inductors, and speaker voice coils, are subjected to excessive DC current. But, during all the degradation and chaos our sound reproduction systems are vulnerable to, there is one constant we can depend upon...the resistivity (the measure of current flow through a conductor) of the wire connecting the component parts of our machines, will remain remarkably constant. This is probably why most of the reputable manufacturers will test and "burn-in" components such as tubes, transistors, and transformers. Some will even burn-in passive components, like chokes, power resistors, and capacitors used in the signal path... but NONE of them burn-in the interconnect wire. |
@hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? |
Possibly. Objectively, speaker drivers absolutely have been shown to measurably change until they break in. The resonant frequency drops during the first 48 hours of significant play. How much this happens is very much driver dependent. Some may do so very little, some a lot. I'm a big fan of Scanspeak, and their woofers and mids will definitely change until broken in. I've also had experience with capacitors in the crossover breaking in, but that's harder to prove. I'm convinced, but I don't care if you are. Best, E |
Ah, the the resurgence of the Post Modern World Vision. My goodness, I hope not... "The bounds of science can not contain the human mind" (Toynbee). Well hifiman5, your hero was also credited with the quote, Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder. Seems to me that embracing a false reality, especially with how the physical world actually works, is far more threatening to social development. So, back to the subject at hand: Do speaker cables need a burn in period? Answer: Only if you believe the advertising written by Cardis, AudioQuest, SilTech, WireWorld and a few others. I think Albert Einstein must have been in the midst of just this sort of conundrum when he complained to a Princeton, NJ newspaper reporter, "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." |
| Post removed |
What’s perhaps even more disturbing, to anyone but especially the skeptics is the use of home feeders for treating cables, CDs, LPs, CD players and all manner of audio related things. Obviously -20 degrees F is not nearly as low as cryogenic temperatures -300 F nor is it low enough to significantly change the physical characteristics of copper or silver wire or the cable jacket. Nevertheless... You might recall HiFi Tuning data sheets showed differences in resistance between cryod fuses and uncryod fuses. |
@azbrd Have you ever installed new cables in a system and listened over a few weeks as the sound opens up with more dynamic swing? Regarding not using any type of contact enhancer, you might reference the Perfect Path Technologies "Total Contact" contact enhancer. I haven't used it but the vast testimonials of those who have point to its efficacy. |
Oh ooh, @azbrd where have you been hiding? Geoff, I think I need a refresher, skeptic or pseudo skeptic? To one of your points, I did a very small amount of sleuthing and could not find much reported about a positive effect/correlation between cryogenic treatment of copper and electrical resistivity (of course all audiophiles with worthy systems and good ears can hear the difference). There is quite a bit about the effect on ferrous metals used in the cutting industry, and I did read one source that cited a “reduction in grain size” - maybe I need to look further |
This is the biggest list of snake-oil, pseudoscience i have ever seen on this site. 1. Send them off to cryo lab. While many high end cables are cryod by the manufacturer, Cryoing twice is better. Once you get them back from the cryo lab give them about a week to recover from thermal shock before critical eval. What happens when these cables return to normal temp? can you document ANY physical change in the wire and how it could impact how the AC current benefits from it and PROVIDE it! 2. Establish correct direction. How would one do this with audio AC which is completely random AND moves in both directions on the wire continuously! 3. Burn in using burn in track or burn in device. Ridiculous, there is no scientific proof that cables have a break in, if you DO have measurable, documented proof please share it with us. 4. Suspend cables from ceiling using fishing line and eye hooks to escape vibration and static electric fields. My favorite suggestion!!! Its right up there with Machina Dyanamica's Intellegent Box, not to mention the Teleportation Tweek! 5. Apply the contact enhancer of your choice to all electrical contacts. Why? cables come with gold connectors for a reason! |
I still get a chuckle out of this. Worth a read: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2166017-monster-xp-versus-aluminum-foil-sp... |
lanceo "Break in" implies there is change, as in a perceived improvement. To effect that change it follows there must be a physical change to a passive component operating well below it's design limitations... in this case the wire. DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! If your premise were true, we would be awash in "improvements" to Ohm's law. Yes, I am an engineer. No, I'm not closed minded. Im' just not inclined to re-prove established facts whenever a doctor, lawyer or an executive banker takes notice of what I do, day in and day out. >>>>Well, goodie for you but nobody said it’s the wire. That’s a Strawman argument. Oh, I forgot, engineer’s don’t know what a Strawman argument is. |
"Break in" implies there is change, as in a perceived improvement. To effect that change it follows there must be a physical change to a passive component operating well below it's design limitations... in this case the wire. DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! If your premise were true, we would be awash in "improvements" to Ohm's law. Yes, I am an engineer. No, I'm not closed minded. Im' just not inclined to re-prove established facts whenever a doctor, lawyer or an executive banker takes notice of what I do, day in and day out. |