This is the biggest list of snake-oil, pseudoscience i have ever seen on this site.
1. Send them off to cryo lab. While many high end cables are cryod by the manufacturer, Cryoing twice is better. Once you get them back from the cryo lab give them about a week to recover from thermal shock before critical eval.
What happens when these cables return to normal temp? can you document ANY physical change in the wire and how it could impact how the AC current benefits from it and PROVIDE it!
2. Establish correct direction.
How would one do this with audio AC which is completely random AND moves in both directions on the wire continuously!
3. Burn in using burn in track or burn in device.
Ridiculous, there is no scientific proof that cables have a break in, if you DO have measurable, documented proof please share it with us.
4. Suspend cables from ceiling using fishing line and eye hooks to escape vibration and static electric fields.
My favorite suggestion!!! Its right up there with Machina Dyanamica's Intellegent Box, not to mention the Teleportation Tweek!
5. Apply the contact enhancer of your choice to all electrical contacts.
Why? cables come with gold connectors for a reason!
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@hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets.
I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? |
@hifiman5 I did not want to get into the details of how the cables were switched, ie blind or not but since you brought it up. One of us would switch (or not switch) the cables when the other two were in another room. When the switch was completed they would return to their exact seating position and the same track at the same volume was played. None of us could accurately say which of the cable sets were in use because both sets sounded the same.
To repeat, we were comparing cables with >1000 hours of use to BRAND NEW cables, my take on this is that cable 'break-in' is a myth and that no-one has ever been able to show that there is any scientific justification to the claim, nor shown or measured that the performance has changed in any way.
I would suggest that cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener, not in the cable. |
@geoffkait
I was waiting for you to chime in!
1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing.
So now you are moving the new cable to old cable discussion to the electrical/mechanical connections? would this mean we need to unplug our wires every time to get to audio nirvana??
2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good.
So >1000 of actual use is not enough to "break in" a cable???
Please provide us with the measurable, repeatable documentation on how to properly break in a wire!
2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good.
this is my favorite geoffkait claim right up there with Dark Matter Optical Coating and his Teleportation Tweak! Just for fun I called several cable companies and asked them to sell me wires that were directional.
ALL of them politely laughed and explained that wire does NOT have any directional property. I personally reversed the wires during our listening test and could not hear any differences.
Look inside your speakers or amps, see if there is any wires in there with little arrows on them OR is there ANY documentation from these companies to advise one which direction your cables should be when connecting them??
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@geoffkait
I forgot to ask, please provide us some actual (not from Audioquest) documentation on how wire directionality applies to an AC circuit? |
@geoffkait
>>>>Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You don’t need to be concerned with any signal travel in the “opposite direction,” only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow?
This is the pseudoscience I'm calling you on, an AC circuit (what connects a amp to a speaker) does NOT behave as you are implying! DC circuits DO behave as you describe. Please stop trying to push your Star Trek science on these forums! |
@geoffkait
@hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets.
I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is????
>>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails.
1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing.
I thought you were pushing "contact enhancers" to fix this? Or maybe it was Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles? I can't remember.
2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good.
If the new cables where NOT broken in then we all should have been able to hear a huge difference between the new cables and the 1000 hour cables according to you. NONE of us heard ANY differences, no matter which direction we ran the cables!
3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction.
4. As has been pointed out many times cables don’t get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient.
5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there.
I'm using 10g wires with excellent resistance/capacitance/inductance specks. Please document what constitutes sufficient quality other than those metrics.
6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences.
So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system???
Well, you show me yours and I will show you mine!
7. There are errors in the system.
What type of errors in a AC circuit
8. The test subjects’ hearing is not all it’s cracked up to be.
Two of use are engineers and one is a professional musician who has also mastered many CDs.
9. Differences were masked by “outside conditions” - weather, time of day, unknown causes.
Yep, i checked. it was a high sun spot day!
10. Test subjects were drunk.
you have got to be kidding???? |
@geoffkait
Please explain to us minions how a particle of light, a photon, can be transferred over copper (or silver for that matter)??
>>>>>>>Try to keep up with the conversation. I do not push my products but I’m always happy to see someone else mention them.
I'm NOT promoting your questionable products, I mention them because they are ridiculous, how can anyone on this site take someone who promotes quacky science like that this take ANY of your suggestions seriously??
>>>>The signal itself is a horse of a different color and travels at near lightspeed in metal conductors. Which of course means the signal must be comprised of photons. So, it’s actually photons that navigate the wire better in one direction than the other.
Please provide us with the documentation/science for directional wire and where to find it besides audioquest? Oh, and where can someone purchase "directional wire"? Do any high end electronic or speaker companies use directional wire in their products? Is directional wire used in our homes or the electrical grid? Oh, and don't forget the documentation on photons traveling over a wire!
If what you are suggesting is true I'm sure it would be used everywhere to gain an extra edge.
So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system???
>>>>>Maybe I am. It is one of the reasons why a test can go awry. You might be taking this just a tad too personally.
Not taking it personal at all, I have been in this hobby for over 40 years, I know so i'm pretty sure i know what i'm doing. I just don't like people promoting quacky, pseudoscience on these forums. There are younger, less knowledgeable people reading these forums that we need to keep our hobby going and your suggestions don't help.
As @sleepwalker65 wrote:
We have this phenomenon of people blindly doing things due to information that they interpret incorrectly.
In case you don't know the definition of pseudoscience its taking a grounded and provable scientific principle and manipulating it into a nonsensical form that is NOT verifiable. Your insistence of wire directionality and photons over wire falls right into this category.
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OMG!
I don't think there is a Nobel Prize for pseudoscience and the fact that you would claim to have won a Nobel prize is as crazy as the products you are pedaling. You do realize that any of us minions can simply query the list of winners??
And once again you have diverted the conversation to avoid PROVING what you claim. Please, please provide us with actual information to back up your claims! Many of us ARE engineers and would love to read/see the facts behind wire directionality. |
@rldwv I do apologize for the recent "personal" attacks as you put it.
I just got fed up with all the pseudoscience some members publish and it seens its on every discussion thread. This hurts our hobby and confuses those of us who are not engineers.
I agree 100% on Leo's advice as well.
I also agree with you on hearing loss and how it increases with age. Fortunately, I can still hear the difference between any Bose speaker and Magnepan 20.7s(hint). |
@rldwv WOW! You already have me moving to a retirement home! :)
As a FYI, I plan on taking my Dynaudio Contour 20's to the retirement home, I just hope they don't mind the JL subwoofer. :)
I could not agree more with your comment:
All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the adage "In God We Trust, all others bring data".
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@geoffkait
Once again you have avoiding providing DATA/Documentation on your claims that wire is direction OR that it requires/benefits from break-in. You make unrelated statements like below, claim you won the Nobel Prize (see quote below) but NEVER provide us with any DATA! Please share with us the measurable, repeatable data the proves wire is directional AND that wire break-in is real!
“If I could explain it to the average person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.”
>>>>I guess you would have to know that everything that’s in the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, which is actually an extremely small portion, is comprised of photons. It’s pretty obvious visible light cannot travel through most solid materials except transparent ones like water, polycarbonate, glass and clear plastic. The electrical signal and the audio signal, are also in the electromagnetic spectrum, but can travel through copper or silver. I bet you thought the signal was electrons, right?
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@geoffkait
You posted the Nobel prize quote as if it was you, yourself who one it.
And for the record, I brought a gun to this fight, i'm tired of your ridiculous pseudoscience claims on these forums. They are bad for this hobby we all enjoy and confuse people who are not technical.
I do have a counter argument to your claim that wire is directional when implemented in a AC circuit (interconnects & speaker)? AC is ALERNATING CURRENT! So the electric charge in alternating current (AC), changes direction periodically. The voltage in AC circuits also periodically reverses because the current changes direction.
How would wire directionality work in a AC circuit? The "preferred direction" would be wrong half the time! And please keep your response out of the world of photons, its NOT relevant to this discussion. We are talking about HOW AC current actually works.
Here is a challenge for you which I know you will squirm you way out of, please tell us all where one can purchase directional wire, besides your favorite audioquest plug. I asked you about this before, go to any home depot and ask the guys in the wire department for directional speaker wire, the will laugh at you because it does NOT exist. Call up Beldon, a very well know producer of wire, tell them you want to purchase directional speaker wire and give us their response. I can go on and on with other challenges so bring it on! |
@geoffkait
Many of us are engineers on this forum, you make statements of FACT but provide NO proof. As rldwv wrote:
All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the addage "In God We Trust, all others bring data".
In typical geoffkait fashion you give up when it comes to proving what your claims. You provide NO technical arguments you just make undocumented/proven claims and give up when challenged for proof of your pseudoscience. |
@geoffkait
Here you go again, changing the subject without providing ANY proof of your statements? We are ALL waiting for your explanation on how wire directionality works in a AC circuit???
Come on, step up and share with us your vast scientific knowledge! |
@teo_audio Well, if that were the case i would had trouble staying employed for the last 40 years. So reading your response you are trying to say that in some cases AC current does NOT behave in the way science & engineers understand it? Your statement sounds like the definition of Pseudoscience which consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that are claimed to be both scientific and factual, but are incompatible with the scientific method. |
@morrowaudio
Welcome to the party Mike. Please provide us with test data to support your statement! Measurements of wire resistance/inductance/capacitance, what the baseline is, ie before break in and how those metrics changed after break in? |
@geoffkait
If you mean the pseudoscience statement you posted earlier? its NOT proof in any way, its a statement with NO actual test data to back it up. If you ask me your quote below is proof you do not understand how AC current works! If you said this in any electrical engineering class your classmates would laugh you out of the room!
>>>>Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You don’t need to be concerned with any signal travel in the “opposite direction,” only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow?
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@geoffkait
Ok now you are lowering the conversation to insults, pretty low grade insults too which is just another way you are avoiding the very simple request to document your claims, is wire directional, and HOW would that work in a AC circuit??
@andy2 audio interconnections and amp to speaker connections are AC, there is no DC involved in these connections. There IS DC internal to pre-amps & amps, its what their power supplies are there for to convert AC power from the wall to pure DC, voltages depend on the design & function of these components.
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@andy2 Unfortunately you are right about changing the topic, sorry about that. @morrowaudio did make a statement about it and i asked him to present his data that shows this to be true, ie testing that shows any difference of resistance/inductance/capacitance.
As for @geoffkait he has proven to be a quack, he will only respond with insults instead of providing us with real electrical engineering data to support his statements of wire directionality AND he has mentioned that he supports cable break in as well with NO meaningful data to support this claim either.
I'm not the least be surprised by Mr. Kait and his inability to share with us his engineering data, anyone who attempts to sell products such as:
Brilliant Pebbles
The Super Intelligent Chip
And my favorite, the Teleportation Tweak
Has to know what he is talking about and we all should believe everything he says!
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I did ask geoffkat multiple insults ago:
Please share with us the measurable, repeatable data the proves wire is directional AND that wire break-in is real!
@rlwd posted this which is spot on:
All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the adage "In God We Trust, all others bring data".
In the case of Mr Kait all he believes in is condescending insults and since he is not an engineer he would not understand the concept of "prove it" with measurable data.
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@and2 If what you are suggesting is true, that believing in data is dogma then we would never had made it to the moon, for that matter concurred powered flight!
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@geoffkait
So, i'm still waiting for your data/documentation that shows that wire directionality OR cable brake-in applies to a AC circuit.
Lets set the table once again on what AC current is:
Alternating Current (AC) flows one way, then the other
way, continually reversing direction which would make a directional wire if it existed useless.
The rate of changing direction is called the frequency
of the AC and it is measured in hertz (Hz) which is the
number of forwards-backwards cycles per second.
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Well if HiFi tuning said it, it has to be true and once again Mr Kait has yet to provide ANY documentation or data to support his statements, he just says something & insults anyone who challenges what he claims and its magically true!
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