A long time ago, I decided not to agonize over cable burn-in. I had read post after post about cables sounding good, bad, bright, thin, dynamic, flat, and then finally, and magically (always after something like 500 hours), sounding great. Some folks even too listening notes to document their cable burn-in process. Why would anyone want to go through all that and how can anyone be sure that the perceived changes are due to burn-in and not the psychoacoustical effect of familiarization?
My solution was to research burn-in devices and to purchase an Audiodharma Cable Cooker, which I use to condition/burn-in all my cables, both those I make and manufactured cables I purchase. I recondition cables if I change connectors and after they have been sitting unused for awhile. After conditioning a cable on the Cable Cooker I simply do not think about burn-in since I have better things to do. |
As we sailed into the mystic...... |
Oh ooh, @azbrd where have you been hiding?
Geoff, I think I need a refresher, skeptic or pseudo skeptic?
To one of your points, I did a very small amount of sleuthing and could not find much reported about a positive effect/correlation between cryogenic treatment of copper and electrical resistivity (of course all audiophiles with worthy systems and good ears can hear the difference). There is quite a bit about the effect on ferrous metals used in the cutting industry, and I did read one source that cited a “reduction in grain size” - maybe I need to look further |
To me, this stuff is a matter of degrees. I don't disagree that any number of small things can change how a system sounds
, but at what point does it make a meaningful difference
in relation to everything else going on in a system
.....i.e., at what point is it worth thousands of dollars to purchase new cables, or hours of time to change fuse directions, damp capacitors, compare footers, change internal hook-up wires, or log the burn-in of speaker cables? It seems like HEA culturally conditions folks so they are never satisfied - like an approach-avoidance thing....when the system is almost dialed in then something else must need improvement. |
Having a screw loose is not a verification of, or a prerequisite for, being an engineer.....maybe something else though... |
Geoff,
How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality. Of course, I am skeptical that those folks actually hear the direction of their fuses rather than the psycho-acoustical effects of cognitive bias or loss aversion based on marketing hype and the fact those items cost more than the "regular" fuses some of us unenlightened folks use. |
@geoffkait The wire in cables and fuses is physically asymmetrical. That’s why resistance measures slightly lower end to end one way than the other. Guess which way sounds better. My understanding is that the premise is the asymmetrical directionality is a result of how the wire is drawn. I have not looked into whether there are measurements showing a repeatable difference in resistance with wire direction although I seem to remember some here citing the HiFi-Tuning fuse test results as one example. I have seen stranger things and do not doubt there could be a metallurgical basis for asymmetry based on the manufacturing process so I would not refute or even spend time arguing Geoff’s assertion of directionality but it is the "sounding better" part where I become a skeptic. There are just too many other things going on in every system for me to believe that a typical person could discern differences in wire directionality by ear. It would be like hearing a fly’s wings flapping in the backseat of your car going 60 mph down a gravel road or, in terms of water, the effect of a stick on the flow rate of the Mississippi River, IMO. |
@cleeds
To your question - Yes
@geoffkait
Yes, I have rolled up my sleeves and investigated aftermarket fuses of several varieties and directionality of those fuses. Bottom line is that
I do not perceive differences between those aftermarket fuses and my typical Littelfuse or Bussmann fuses (I do however perceive differences between cables, so go figure). Most of those aftermarket fuses are still in my gear and I have no reason to remove them since I own them, they work, and they don't seem to make things sound worse. My own trials and observations of those fuses and common sense related to the length of a fuse wire compared to the many signal traces, electrical parts, and feet of wire present in most equipment are what has led me to be skeptical of what others report hearing. However, for clarity, I do not question what they hear, just the reasons why. Also, unlike some others, I am fine with this difference of opinion and feel no need to change anyone else's mind. |
@andy2
It's does not make sense to say this direction temperature is higher vs. the other direction. With all respect, if you have ever been hit in the face with a cold north wind on a winter day in Michigan you might change your mind about "temperature vectors"..... |
Andy,
Are you always this serious?
Maybe time to return to the regular scheduled programming - debating cables :-) |
@andy2
Ok then...bring your tuque and button up! |
@danoroo Speaker wire burn-in in amplifier specific. So, unless the prior owner used the same make and model amp as you, the cables will act (and sound) like new. Ok, just so I am clear, what if the prior owner did in fact use the same make and model amp but.......different speakers??? 🔇🃏 |
@b4icu
If a dealer had demonstrated or/and sold a cable, for some US $3,000.- plus, and unfortunately it is not delivering the promised superiority: What could that dealer or sales person say?
"It will open up and sound better after a burn in". Only three posts in and you are way too clear-sighted and logical. Stick around, things become murkier over time. |
@tobor007 If someone gave you a 10 to 1, $ bet that you could pick out the the direction of your cables with a blind listening test, how much money would you risk? Oh poor 23-post dude (or dudet), go back and read from the beginning. Nobody can actually hear the difference in a “blind” or “double-blind” listening test. But, that doesn’t mean there is no difference. Many can hear a significant difference, just not under the confines of actual comparison tests. Besides, a requirement to actually hear a difference would suck the fun out of keeping endless logs of listening notes after changing the direction of each and every fuse and cable one-by-one. |
@audacious
The “difference” being discussed is the difference in how a fuse or cable sounds when it is turned around in the opposite direction. The premise being that all wire is directional and having the wire oriented in the proper direction is audibly superior. (Hint: I believe the first statement but not so much the second). My response to @tobor007 was not about the difference between different cables. |
@glupson In short, there is no way you can be right That is sort of the problem with these threads, everyone wants to be "right", everyone believes they are "right", and everyone wants everyone else to acknowledge they are "right". Never gonna get there. Of course these threads would be a lot less fun if everyone simply stated their case objectively and moved on. |
IMO Teflon was and remains overrated. I perceive that I hear a hint of a “sheen” (no, not Charlie) from cables made with Teflon dielectric. One of those irritant-over-the-long-haul things (not unlike Charlie). My preference is for cotton or foamed PE, regardless of direction. |
Being able to hear “sheen” from Teflon dielectric but not being able to hear cable direction is an excellent example of WTF? Yeah, crazy huh? Maybe I simply didn't like the cables I've listened to that had Teflon-covered wire but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. As head teleporter, I'm sure you know not everything in audio can be rationally explained. |
Was the cable burned in? Sure, it has been "cables" not just one and, as discussed earlier, I use the Audiodharma Cable Cooker on all my cables since I don't care to spend my time listening for burn-in changes or keeping a log of how something sounds over many hundreds of hours. |
Geoff, odd that a "lone wolf" can participate in a "carefully orchestrated smear campaign." Who exactly is the lone wolf orchestrating with? Also, interesting to lump outsiders with anti-audiophiles. "Outsiders" would seemingly have little interest in the peculiarities of audiophiles while "anti-audiophiles" would be expected to play a more proactive role in actually subverting the audiophile tweaking (or twerking?) rituals. There seems to be a lot of psychology at play here. Nobody ever said being an audiophile is a bowl of seedless grapes.
|
|
Burn in is experienced by many people.
The placebo effect or expectancy effect is also experienced by many people.
|
Geoff, You know this how?
Know which? 1.
Burn in is experienced by many people. as reported by @blueranger or 2. Expectancy effect is experienced by many people. Which of those statements is more likely to have come from a psychic?
Can you be sure I have not been texting with the 80,000 you claim to "hear it"? |
@blueranger
So an electrical signal has no effect what so ever on a copper wire? The more pertinent questions are whether the effect of an electrical signal can cause physical changes to the wire over time (i.e., during the "burn-in" period) and whether any lasting or temporary effects/changes can be measured or heard as a sonic difference between the sound pre and post burn-in. The problem with these threads is that some here report hearing differences and others don't but neither camp has any level of "proof" that is sufficient to satisfy the other, hence the infinite loop argument. |
See the requirements for expert testimony from the Federal Rules of Evidence below. Can you imagine a thread here trying to define who is qualified to provide expert opinion on cables, fuses, and wire burn-in? That should be good for several months of worthless but entertaining back and forth.
Rule 702. Testimony by Expert WitnessesA witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if: (a) the expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue; (b) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data; (c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and (d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.
|
After reading from all here who find that cables need “burned-in” I am sure glad I purchased a Cable Cooker years ago
I just condition them for 3-5 days (depending on the cable) play them in my system for about a day and then I don’t have to worry about it because the sound doesn’t really change - you get what you get |
