As much as a hair dryer does!
Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
I have heard some say that speaker cables do need a 'burn in', and some say that its totally BS.
What say you?
What say you?
1,164 responses Add your response
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It’s perhaps not obvious to the casual observer 👀 but the power cord should be in the right direction, too. Actually, all wiring and cables including the digital cable and Ethernet cable and HDMI cable and of course fuses, should be in the right direction, too. 🔜 Even a stubborn mule can hear the difference. Yes, I realize this is supposedly a hot button topic 🥵 but the only debate is in the mind 🧠 of the pseudo-scientist. 🤔 As the little mice in Babe sing, that’s the way things are. Pop quiz: why does AudioQuest highly polish the surface of their solid conductor cables? |
That's almost as good as this video with all the cables in the wrong direction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4mHPeMGTJM |
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Virgin Morrow cables "don't immediately suck and then magically become fabulous, although they do seem to improve a bit." Mine cost <10% of equivalent Morrows, and they DO immediately suck (uncertain about the magic to come). So I'm thinking maybe we get what we pay for and this thread is way out of my league. Thanks, folks! |
I had some KK silver KCAG interconnects that sounded a little harsh so I cooked them for 24 hours but no change. I then cooked them for a solid week. Wallah, the harshness was gone. Now what happened? 1. I might have cleaned the contacts by moving them. 2. Some static may have bled out. 3. The power grid may have been cleaner. 4. I might have been in a cheerier mood or by waiting and being more optimistic. |
I own a little pile of Morrow cables and never use their burn-in service as I'm always curious about what the differences might be relative to "virgin" cables...so I use my own system to season the cables. My experience doing this doesn't always square with the documentation supplied with the cables, as the differences aren't quite as dramatic as claimed by Morrow...in any case they don't immediately suck and then magically become fabulous, although they do seem to improve a bit. I generally forget about it anyway, and simply enjoy the music...which doesn't seem to be ruined by new cables...amazingly! |
I think we are adults here, and obviously there is a cost to everything, but the question is and that is being discussed, is what is the real cost to a MFR, and is it justified for a reasonably priced cable. I have shown that with minimal equipment, a burn-in cost of a few dollars per cable is reasonable at fairly low volumes, and hence could easily be incorporated into product price of a cable in the mid-hundreds, not mid-thousands. |
Free burn in on all cables on their custom cable burn in unit (and they are not $7,000 cables): https://www.avantiaudio.com/cable-conditioning.html Cable loaner program (prices start at $700). Cables are burned-in before shipping: https://www.taralabs.com/cable-loaners Only charges $10 using off the shelf device (one built for MFG would be much less): https://completecableconcepts.com/collections/cable-conditioning That was just a quick search. It is a marketing decision, and it could be done very cheaply in production. |
Like I said before, just a quick look around would dispel any questions: https://forum.audiogon.com/search/index?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=cable+burn+in+services There's more as well using other search parameters. All the best, Nonoise |
"Free" is not free. They already took into account the cost and added to the overall cost. Like I said, it costs money to perform cable burn in. I suspect if they have only one Nordost Vidar Machine. I doubt they can burn in too many cables and it appears like a marketing ploy so that they can claim they provide burn in service. To fully burn in a cable, it may take up to 300hr. How many cables do you think they can burn in using one Nordost Vidar Machine? Simple math really. Now they can purchase more burn in machine but I don’t think nobody will give them the machine for free. Looking at their website, they sell hundreds of brands of cable. Hm.... how many of that can be burned-in? My guess they can only offer burn in if the cables cost north of $7K lols. Our cable burn-in service is a non-chargeable service and is provided by Future Shop at its discretion. We will attempt to fulfill all burn-in requests for the specified time periods. However, during extremely busy periods, we regret we may not be able to meet the demand for all requests due to the limited connections available on the Nordost Vidar cable conditioning machines. |
Im not sure that it proves nobody is doing it for free as I have not done any research on this but my first google search turned up this: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/free-cable-burn-in I’m sure there are others. You have peaked my curiosity however so next time I speak with Mike I’m going to ask him how many people buying his lower priced cables purchase the burn in service. The answer might be surprising. |
Many dealers offer these services as well. Not much here to argue about really.I am glad you agree with me. It proves nobody is doing it for free because it costs actual money. I doubt anyone who bought a pair of interconnect from Morrow that cost 80 dollars a pair would pay $30 for burn in, and to be honest, it probably makes no difference if it’s a 80 dollar interconnect. Now on the other hands, Morrow is selling a $5000 dollars interconnect, then sure $30 dollar of burn in fee is perfectly reasonable. Imagine if you’re QED selling a pair of interconnect for $100 dollar per pair, $30 dollars of burn in cost will go real well I suppose :-) |
If I was making a thousand a week the cost to burn in would drop to <<$1.00 per cable. This is the real world. Many products are burned in and they don’t just turn them on, they monitor them too, even inexpensive items. That is manufacturing and is done day in and day out and none goes out of business because of it. If some companies are doing it, they obviously feel there is marketing value in it. It would be a upper mid to high end feature sell, not a Blue Jeans cable sell, i.e. > $500. $80 cable vendors are normally not talking about burn in at all, nor are their customers. There is nothing fantastic about this. It is done day in and day out. |
It seems like a real pain to go to all that trouble just to do 1000 units/year. QED sells probably 1000 units per week or more. If they have to burn in their cables to sell, they probably go out of business. Maybe that’s why nobody is doing it. You always managed to come up with fantastical ideas, that to be honest, anyone could come up with anything. To do it in the real world, it’s entirely different matter. And considering these boutique mom and pop cables makers come and Go as often as a call girl changing her panties, yeah, good luck with that. I’ve heard that Crystal Cables offers cable burn in, but their cables cost like $7000 per pair which is justified. If your cables cost like $80 dollar per pair, yeah, that’s like a prescription for going out of business. That NoNoise guy apparent opened his mouth before he knew what the hell he talking about. |
Yes, the real world, where people don't burn in AC power supplies in production with $5,000 Keysight or Chroma loads, they use the least expensive way they can ... even just a resistor. 100W class-D stereo amplifiers are < $100 each. A bank of those with resistive loads could burn in 10 sets of speaker cables at a time. Could even do double duty burning in AC cords at the same time. So let's call it $100*100 + $1000 for miscellaneous cabling = $2000 to burn in 10 sets of speaker cables and 10 AC cords a week, or say 450-500 a year (mom and pop shop remember). Time to put them in and take them out is likely < 2-3 minutes per unit, tops. If we amortized the equipment in the first year, that is $4-5 / unit. $2-3 over 2 years. A system for interconnects would be even cheaper. If you have the resources in house to manufacture 50 sets / cables a week (or 10), then the extra few minutes to put them on and take them off the burn-in system is not going to be a burden. If I was doing 50+ sets a week, I would likely do something a little more sophisticated and lower cost on a per unit basis, not to mention less hungry for electricity. Now realistically, running 100W continuously through a cable is likely far more stress than what anyone would do at home, so it is likely the time could even be shortened, even considerably for the speaker cables and you could similarly load up the interconnects much harder. You don't have to be Apple to do mass production. For many companies, 1000 units/year is "mass production". |
First show me a cable cooker with link. And how many cables can it "cook" at the same time? And it will be a simple multiplication really? It's just simple math. Doing a quick search, it seems like some of the "off the shelf" cooker can only 2 or 3 at a time. Also, breaking in a cable takes more than 24hrs like you said. It takes at least 100hrs. 24hrs barely scratches the surface. So 100hrs / 3 = 30hrs. So it takes about 30hrs to cook one cables on average given the cooker can do 3 at a time. If you only have one cable cooker, for a week, you can do (24hr x 7)/30 = about 5.6 cables. Now that counting weekends. Not counting weekend, it would be (24hr x 5)/ 30 = 4. Good luck running a business that can only do 5.6 or 4 cables a week. And considering most audio cables makers are mom and pop operation, I doubt they have the mean to buy a lot of cable cookers. And to hire some high school dropout to swap out the cables, that costs money too. This is not exactly Apples where you can do mass production. This is real world we are talking about. Not some guy's wet dreams. |
That is because, as you have illustrated, you are not very familiar with manufacturing and the costs involved, and how little per unit amortized costs can be. Since you believe I am wrong, why don’t you show me how? ..... use some real numbers, I will even allow you to guess at values. I don’t have to guess. That is why I have a company (not a single consultant) that consults to the audio industry and several others. We even manage contract manufacturing and do some low volume work ourselves where it makes sense. You are long on ad hominems, short on useful content. andy2802 posts11-19-2019 10:33pmI don’t think there is a lot of excuse for not doing it, at least for a reasonable amount of time, say 144 hours (1 week). |
I don’t think there is a lot of excuse for not doing it, at least for a reasonable amount of time, say 144 hours (1 week). Except nobody is doing it except probably for some high end cables which the cost has already taken into account. I am getting scared for whoever you're doing consulting work for. That is if that's your actual job. Oh well ... if you want in indulge into your own wet dreams, who am I to stop. |
What crawled up you and died? Your insistence on staying ignorant of what boils down to some very common knowledge around here smacks of one being willfully obtuse. What the hell is this? Have you gone completely insane? I don’t even know what got in to you? Are we talking about cable break-in? Maybe you’re trying to get warmed up for a horror flick. Maybe you’re just on drugs? That's probably the most psycho post I've seen here. |
You absolutely make no sense. Are you even considering real world cost? As I said, where I came from it costs money to purchase equipment and to hire people to do things.. What crawled up you and died? Your insistence on staying ignorant of what boils down to some very common knowledge around here smacks of one being willfully obtuse. Having a particularly bad day? All the best, Nonoise |
I have been involved in products that sell for <$10-20 that were burned in for 24 hours. Equipment costs are amortized over say 2 years, variable costs are electricity, facility overhead, and the labour to put the cable into the equipment, and take it out. Given the claims of technical prowess by these companies, it should not be hard to put together equipment to do this. If it is a high dollar, low volume shop, the margin should easily cover this cost. If it is a high volume, low dollar shop, then the per unit amortized costs should be low. I don’t think there is a lot of excuse for not doing it, at least for a reasonable amount of time, say 144 hours (1 week). |
Not to be argumentative, but everything you've brought up has been discussed at length here on prior threads.You absolutely make no sense. Are you even considering real world cost? As I said, where I came from it costs money to purchase equipment and to hire people to do things. I suppose where you came from everything is free. I love to see where that is. |
It doesn't cost them that much at all. Let's say it takes 300hr to fully break-in a cables. I highly doubt 300hr is something free. Unless you have someone and a bunch of equipment working for you for free. A little bit of research and time It has nothing to do with research. It's just dollar and sense. Where I came from, if I have to use some equipment and have to hire someone doing something for me, it costs money. No way around it. Now, as for those you claim do not charge extra money for breaking-in, they already took that into account in term of the total cost of the cables. Also I would guess those are only very high end cable. If you sell cheap cables only $80 a pair and if you offer break-in for free, I think you'll declare bankruptcy very soon. |
:-) catmandude4 posts10-27-2019 8:42pmI read somewhere that soaking your speaker wire in cat urine for 24 to 48 hours will eliminate the need for "burn in". Something about the pheromones in the urine acting as a catalyst that causes the copper to deionize allowing the copper atoms to perfectly align in a way that provides purer harmonic resonance. Be careful not to let them soak for too long though, otherwise they begin to produce an annoying hiss. |
