Do powercords make a difference in sound?

"Digital recording is definitely superior to any other form of recording we know".

Herbert von Karajan

I don't care. You didn't ask the question Tbg.

By the way, I can't prove there's no Tooth Fairy either.

Rwwear, life is uncertain.

Oops - sorry for accidental (wrong forum) irrelevant post.

Snicker snicker yourself Rwwear -- yours is hands-down the most comical assertion posted here:

"If you have compared dozens upon dozens of cables I submit your judgement will become convoluted"

If you have compared no cables, I submit your judgement will be worth about the server space taken up by your, er, 'contributions' to this thread.

Who is more of a "fanatic" -- someone who reaches their conclusions through repeated critical listening, or someone who has predetermined a conclusion without listening?

People like you ZMan make places like this no fun. You are an idiot to believe I have not listened to almost everything out there. I have been in the audio business for almost thirty years. My assertion was for those unfortunately hard of understanding is that you can not compare dozens of cables and remember what the first one sounded like. If you can, you're an amazing person. The only thing so far that you've shown me is how amazingly poor your since of humor is. This is audio not a life or death situation. If you get mad because someone doesn't agree with your hypothesis then I don't really give a rat's ass.

I rest my case. Buh-bye!

Rwwear, I do entirely agree that one cannot compare a large number of cables. But two is no problem. But this is a different issue than saying cables are over-engineered and that cable design is not rocket science implying that differences between the sounds of different cables are minor.

The original post asked if there were differences. I would say absolutely with some being substantial; how would you answer?

The simplest answer is: maybe.

No doubt they can.

But in some cases they may not.

Also, when this topic comes up, I like to point out that powercords do not have a "sound". What they have is the ability to affect the quality of the sound the device they help power makes. That will vary by device and is not an attribute of the powercord itself.

Mapman, I think by your logic on pcs not making any sound, only speakers would have a sound.

I see these threads often. Every single time nay-sayers activists jump in to prove that there is no possible difference in sound. The truth is that THEY cannot hear what other people can and instead of admitting it they go into denial. As a result they jump into every cable thread to tell other people that they cannot possibly hear the difference. Their ego is hurt and they quote any possible thing to substantiate their claim - like education or number of years being audiophile or number of cables the listened to. GROW UP PEOPLE - IT IS PATHETIC.

"Mapman, I think by your logic on pcs not making any sound, only speakers would have a sound."

It's true that there is no sound without speakers, so technically that is correct.

But ICs and speaker wires are at least in the signal path along with the other components. I do believe that the choice of components used in the signal path does directly determine the resulting sound.

Not so sure with power cords though. Better/cleaner delivery of power more enables the devices that the electric audio signal passes through to do what it is they already do better.

I suppose its all relative. Everything has to work well and well together for best results. Plenty of clean power helps. The power cord is definitely part of the game.

Rwwear, I'll pick up cordially on your comment, "My assertion was for those unfortunately hard of understanding is that you can not compare dozens of cables and remember what the first one sounded like. If you can, you're an amazing person."

Well, thank you, I guess I'm an amazing person, because I do recall what the different cords did in various systems. If you would compare sets of cables like I do you would likely hear the "character" or specific sound of the cables, which in reality is fairly easy to categorize, similar to taking a drink of a new beverage. I do slot cables into mental categories based on their use in multiple systems. I do believe that if I were to return to those cables again I would hear the same effect from using them, just like returning to the beverage once tasted.

Now, is that amazing? I don't think so. :)

Anyway, to return to the topic of the thread, I do not need to remember the sound of dozens of types of cables to prove my point. I need only argue that there is a sonic difference between two types/sets of cables. There is no point in my arguing that I can recall various cables, but there is a good point in my arguing that any given set of two cables likely will sound different from each other. If you wish to apply this argument to power cords specifically, feel free, as I believe it pertains.

The pertinent question now is, Rwwear, have you actually conducted comparisons between sets of cables? Merely listening to "everything out there" is not the same. And frankly, I do not care how many years you have been in the audio business; this is not a matter of time in the game, but rather specific experience which you may not have. Have you run listening tests between two or three brands of power cords? Have you tried two different sets of cables (power/IC/SC)?

If you have and didn't hear the difference, I respect that. Then simply say so. But if you haven't, then you owe it to yourself to try.

Mapman, yours is an interesting argument technically to say that IC/SC is in the signal path but that power cords are not. I take a very pragmatic approach to audio; if it influences the sound, it's considered efficacious. I think we would agree that if power cords do influence the sound it would be due to being far more directly involved electronically than various tweaks which have at best only a physical contact to the component and at worst no contact nor demonstrable influence upon the sound waves.

So, in practical parlance it matters little to me if the power cord is "in signal" or "out signal" - I find they alter the system performance powerfully (pun!). They influence the electronics which influence the signal.

I have no problem with you Douglas. But I do with Zaikesman. He appears to be a jackass.
I have tried different PCs in my system and have never heard any difference. I have always had Krell amps up until recently so I'm sure the power supplies were up to very high standards. Maybe that's a possible reason I never heard differences. But I don't really think so.
I once worked for a company that designed high end audio equipment and power cords.
'Nuff said.

hi doug :

your logic is faulty.

you cannot know what any component sounds like.

i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.

when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component.

hi doug :

your logic is faulty.

you cannot know what any component sounds like.

i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.

when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component.

when you talk about differences in the sound of components, uyou really are observing the affect of changing components upon the sound of a stereo system.

let me put in equation form: ss=f(c(i)), that is the sound of a stereo system is a function of the sound of the components within the stereo system. what is the equation ?? it is impossible to specify the equation and solve for the independent vraiables.

I spent $300 for new wall sockets and PS Jewel power cords... some here pay that for a single interconnect. The audible difference in base performance and reduction of irritants in sound was well worth it.

Having done electrical construction long ago I strongly suggest anyone start first with replacing the wall sockets with heavy duty sockets...the plug in your wall is likely the cheapest garbage possible and you won't benefit much from connecting a heavy duty power cable to a pot metal wall socket.

I'm not getting suckered into a flame-war, and obviously won't respond to someone who has resorted to calling names. Anyone can click on the "This Thread" button under my or any other member's posts here and determine for themselves who contributed what to the discussion. My regards to those many who participated with diligence and in earnest.

Mrtennis, given your perspective in this matter perhaps your reviews should come with a disclaimer:

"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I used it in a system, and I have no clue what it might sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly."

Perhaps you could use all your philosophy to develop a new method of reviewing, one in which only the component sans the rest of the system could be used. Then you would be able to say:

"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I didn't use it in a system, and I have no clue what it will sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly." :)

Rwwear, ok, I respect your response, thank you.

When discussing with Liguy it appeared that he had tried only similar cables and was now interested in trying ones with dissimilar build/design. Is that perhaps also the case for you?

I'm sure the Krell amps have been very high performers. I currently am using (for review) some top level amps and they show a clear change in sound with various power cords. So, I'm not inclined to believe that the power supply quality diminishes the influence of power cords.

I would imagine that if a person worked in the industry and saw a case of overcharging or misrepresenting the quality/technology of the cabling they would be quite digusted and consider it hokum. But shenanigans by a company in the industry would not prove that cabling with different designs, conductors, etc. cannot sound different. Again, the fact that there is little "solid ground" on which an audiophile can stand in determining the quality/validity of cables in general (i.e. regarding price to performance ratio) does not negate the sonic effect of various designs.

Douglas_schroeder, you say that Mrtennis is saying, "I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I used it in a system, and I have no clue what it might sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly."
Apart from the last part of what you say he is saying, it is a true statement in my opinion. As reviewers, we have to hope as do our readers that there is a good deal of communality between our systems, hearing, and tastes. I suspect there is but this sharing is not total. Every time I attend a show and learn what rooms are rated "best sounding" and I totally disagree, I am aware of the lack of sharing.

At its best reviewers, I think, can say this component, cable, etc. deserves your serious consideration. I have also learned over time, that from some reviewers I should ignore this recommendation.

Tbg, Mrtennis will almost invariably take an audiophile reductionist/agnostic viewpoint, i.e. that one can know little to nothing about sound, setting up systems, etc. absolutely.

While this may be true philosophically, I find it obfuscates learning about putting together high end systems. I find it of little value in actually assembling better sounding rigs.

My understanding is that Mrtennis objected to my statement that I can tell the sonic characteristics of sets of cables. I'll stand by my claim that one can indeed utilize cables to achieve a certain result in systems when they know the character of the cables' sound.

So, what do you think, Tbg; what if you used a set of cables in five different systems and the results were consistent every time (but obviously not identical as each system is discreet) in regards to their sound as compared to different cables - would you accept that those cables had a particular sound quality? Or would you take the position of Mrtennis that you can't know what a component sounds like?

I'm not into philosophical ramblings, especially when they're self-evident like Mrtennis's last post. I'm into practical methods of building better audio systems. But everyone's got their own philosophy and methodology. :)

On a practical side.....how many of us have a hodgepodge of cords of different models and manufacturers or worse, running into a conditioner where any difference is homogenized and ultimately inaudible? I know that's my case.

I wholehearteldy agree with the approach of upgrading the outlets and having a dedicated line and stopping right there.

hi doug:

you have misrepresented my statements and you display an ignorance of mathematics. this is not a matter of philosophy.
the issue concerns mathematics, and specifically the concept of a diophantine equation.

it's really quite simple. i indicated the nature of the relationship between a stereo system and the components therein in functional form.

first , let's construct a paradigm.

you listen to a stereo system for the first time.

thus you do not know what any individual component sounds like.

you can listen to the stereo system as long as you wish. you can't isolate the sound of a component and describe it, because you are listening to the sound of a stereo system.
you are not listening to one component

next, you substitute, say another amplifier. the sound of a the stereo system changes.

all you can say is the insertion of the amplifier produced a change in the sound of a stereo system, and describe the sound of the stereo system.

in the end, you have created comments about two stereo systems.

if you compare the comments you can discern the affect of the amplifier change upon the stereo system, but you cannot describe the sound of either amplifier.

so, a review is essentially, a discussion of the affect of the sound of the review sample upon the sound of a stereo system. a review does not describe the sound of the review sample.

if you state that a component has a sound, and describe it, you are being illogical, violating the laws of mathematics, and lying to your readers.

your suggestions regarding a caveat to the reader are a non-sequitur.

you are welcome to read my reviews and comment as you see fit, but your reasoning is unsound.

you should learn some mathematics before you speak.

Rrpg: "There is one thing I have noticed. When something sounds good everybody knows it."

I wish I had $10 for every audio club meeting at which there were disputes on what sounded good and what didn't.

Mrtennis, "if you compare the comments you can discern the affect of the amplifier change upon the stereo system, but you cannot describe the sound of either amplifier." There is no need to do so. There was a benefit of the second amp over the first. This is all the reviewer need to be concern with.

Diophantine equations are a smoke screen.

The voices tell me all of you are nutty!!!! I really do hear voices.

hi tbg:

i disagree, but it seems each one of us looks at words and has his own interpretation.

for a reviewer to say there is a benefit of the second amp is not a review.

i would never use such terms in my review.

i have already stated what a review is , namely a statement of the affect of a component upon the sound of a stereo system.

Mrtennis, my sincere apologies if I offended you before.

I was able to find and thought of lifting quotes from this site where you describe the sound characteristics of particular components, something you suggest cannot be done. But, frankly, it would not be done in kindness, and perhaps you would take umbrage.

I find little value in continuing the argument. It's time to refocus on writing.

Blessings to you. :)

i've tended to stay away from this forum because i didn't like the way that the moderator blocked some of my posts, but we'll see if this one gets past the censor...

my advice is that you be vary skeptical of people who assert that there are discernible "sonic" differences between power cords, yet they can't give any explanation as to why that is the case. it's, like, all subjective, so the comments are subject to exogenous influences that have nothing to do with electronics.

you are dealing with expectations: a person who is willing to go out and get a power cord is someone who is seeking a better audio experience; so they are starting out *hoping* that the power cord will make their system sound better. this is aided by visually appealing packaging: expensive-looking packaging, impressive-looking cord thicknesses/end connectors and aesthetically appealing cord sheathing.

you are dealing with personal biases: a person who has already spend a few hundred (if not thousand) dollars on a power cord has a need to feel that he hasn't wasted his money. so, of course such a person will tell you that the power cord made an "immense" difference in his system, even if he can't tell you why.

one of the things that hurts the credibility of high end audio is all the bs and pseudo-science that is promoted to justify $30,000 speaker cables (that you can buy at radio shack for $0.40/foot) and various other "tweaks", which purported make your system sound better. add to this the role of "audiophile" reviewers who often has conflicts of interest in the products that they review (which are not disclosed to the readers).

until i hear one of these reviewers conduct their reviews in blind testing, where they have to comment on the "sonic" qualities of the system without knowing which cords are being used (or even if the cords have been switched from one test to the next), i will not give much credence to the assertions (offered without explanation) of how various cords improve the "sonic" quality of a given component or system.

Paperw8, science is to explain observations. People hear a difference, the question for science is why? I strongly suggest that the easy rules of EE fail to account for all that is important.

But in audio reproduction the quest is realism. If a component or cable improves it that is enough for me. I have participated in the invalid 30 sec. same/different tests and cannot be certain of my answers but with a longer exposure, I have no difficulty. Frankly, I have no interest in double blind which to make an analogy is like assessing what cables sound like under different air pressures.

Frankly, I care little whether you give much credence to non-blind reviews or efforts to grasp how the better cable is better.

I missed this thread. You could add me to the third camp. Almarg provided excellent reasoning as to what it's about.

As far as the OP of this thread, if you want too see if you get any benefit, try one on a returnable basis. While comparing, have a friend change them without your knowledge of what cord is being used, IOW a true blind test (out of sight). I don't think a blind test done on a strange system, and strange in a strange environment is accurate. That way you'll actually know if it sounds better without having any influence as to someone telling you it will, or will not sound better. Being that this is in your own system, and home, it will be the most fair.

Original Question: "Do powercords make a difference in sound?"
True answer (as I have repeatedly stated and already proven scientifically in 100% of my extensive listening tests)
YES they do make consistent and often very obvious differences.
If YOU can't tell then the likely cause is either a very "Low-fi" poorly resolving system or "Low-fi" poorly resolving ears.
Next question?/Thread?

Paperw8:

Your paragraph number three describes exactly what I was alluding to in my post. You said it well.

Best,

Dave

hi doug:

if, as you say, i have directly stated that a component has a sound, i was in error. what i meant to say wae that the stereo system had a sound, when a particular component was part of that stereo system.

p agree there is nothing more to say.

if perchance you should read one my reviews, i am describing the sound of a stereo system with the review sample(s) substituted for other components.

i always describe what i am hearing, not the sound of a component.

Paperw8: How do you explain the audiophile, such as myself and no doubt just about anyone who has actually tried a variety of power cords and hears differences among them (or any other component for that matter -- power cords are no different from anything else in this regard), who has had the experience of buying something that yes, they hoped would succeed and fulfill their expectations, and yes, paid good money for it, and no, their auditioning wasn't performed double-blind (of course), and yet, wound up NOT preferring the most expensive, or the newest, or the prettiest, or the best-reviewed item? This does happen not-infrequently in the real world...

Gentlemen;

Some of you have alluded through your posts you write reviews. I take this to mean you write professionally for a periodical or site?

If so, I wonder, is it inappropriate to ask you to identify yourselves and where one could find your reviews?

I for one would be interested in reading your points of view on other subjects besides power cords.

Best,

Dave

hi dave:

i write for audiophilia.com. if you do a search on my name, you will find a variety of essays that are not reviews.

if you read any review i would appreciate feedback as to your attitude regarding my reviewing style.

Dave, I write for StereoTimes. I did write for Dagogo and for SoundStage. Let's just say they didn't work out. I am the only Norm on StereoTimes list.

Dave: That's a very interesting question you asked. I am quite frankly surprised by the answers.

(It would be too politically incorrect for me to explicitly say why -- although in another sense I guess I shouldn't be surprised at all, since I myself was once asked if I would be interested in reviewing for one of the publications mentioned above, by its editor. I wasn't, but also declined because I didn't feel that I was qualified: not as an audiophile, nor technically, nor as a writer.)

Zaikesman, let us consider what might "qualify" someone as a reviewer. Would it be an EE degree, years of experience in audio, experience as a dealer in audio, knowing many manufacturers, being wealthy enough to not be bought to give a good review to get the component at a good price, being articulate, hearing well in tests, etc.?

When I entered audio in the late 50s, there were few manufactures and JG Holt listened to them and said what he thought without any influence of advertising on his judgment. Even in small towns there were dealers who were more interested in the best audio than making a lot of money and who would get products in where you could go a give a listening. All of this is gone now. Even were I to travel over a hundred miles, I could not hear a comparison of products that interest me. Even going to shows where such products might be in separate rooms allows no such comparison.

What becomes very important now is opinions of others about these products and hopefully a comparison with two that interest us. I think today that reviewers now serve to replace going to a dealer and listening and hopefully hearing a comparison between two of the few available products that interest us. I still remember hearing a comparison between Crown and SAE amps.

I seek always to be aware that others might have different circumstances, tastes, and rooms than I do. I view my reviews as personal experiences, with more substance than just saying "this product blows my mind" or "sucks."

Two of my undergraduate majors were EE and physics. I always had trouble with these two as they often contradicted each other. One focuses on building things that work and the other on exploring how things work. I am constantly aware of my not understanding why quartz some places helps, in others does nothing, and in yet others greatly hurts the sound. There is no theory as to why this happens. There are many, many instances of this, in my experience. All that I can conclude when reviewing such products is that in my system they are very important.

Of course, ethics are very important. In the old days, if a dealer had both products that interested you and you heard one that you liked, there were no ethical concerns other than whether he would honor the warranty. I have no real solution to whether you should trust a reviewer.

Just another point of view, a key question is why so many different points of views and results. The first step in building a stereo or home theatre system should be the electrical, the level of electrical would determine what type of components you should buy and the level of performance one CAN achieve.

Here's my example: in drag racing the type of fuel determines the potential of performance, so the nitro fueled cars set the standard, you won't say your street legal unleaded fueled car is top dog. What I see in this hobby is people with all levels of gear claiming to have reached that 4 second
mark, with unleaded gas. This is not a plug and play hobby, you may be able to tune a Toyota but a nitro fueled car?

Btselect - that's true, power is very important but when you're in drag racing you don't care how smooth is the ride. There is plenty of very dynamic systems that sound horrible in spite of super outlets, dedicated lines etc. I do still agree about benefits of basics (good power delivery) but it is only a (necessary) part of the picture.

09-04-11: Zaikesman
Paperw8: How do you explain the audiophile, such as myself and no doubt just about anyone who has actually tried a variety of power cords and hears differences among them (or any other component for that matter -- power cords are no different from anything else in this regard), who has had the experience of buying something that yes, they hoped would succeed and fulfill their expectations, and yes, paid good money for it, and no, their auditioning wasn't performed double-blind (of course), and yet, wound up NOT preferring the most expensive, or the newest, or the prettiest, or the best-reviewed item? This does happen not-infrequently in the real world...

you're effectively asking me to tell you what is going on in your head, and i can't do that. suffice it to say, and as noted earlier in this thread, this topic is a *highly* controversial one. in general, i have difficulty with stuff which seems to operate by magic. when i read comments about the presumed sonic benefits of power cords, and "tweaks" in general, my reaction is to think that these people should remember to wear their tin foil hats with the shiny side facing outward. in my mind, this stuff is no different than with other controversial topics like the loch ness monster, area 51 ufo theories, and the abominable snowman.

Paperw8, thank you for your opinion.

(poking my nose back in for a moment...)
Paperw8, you do harm to your argument with such illustrations that stretch credibility. I sense you are quite passionate about your position, but you hurt yourself when you suggest...

-That a person be wary of an individual who describes a phenomenon but can't explain it. Doesn't all observation lead to exploration, discovery? Shall we be suspect of all who hear a phenomenon regularly? Perhaps we should be suspect of those who don't?

-Re: Personal Biases - The existence of bias is not a reason for dismissal of a phenomenon. It may influence one's perception, but certainly is not definitive proof against it.

I have had the pleasure of having several audiophiles, some industry professionals, in my room who started with a negative bias against cables, especially power cables. It has been pure joy to demonstrate simply the efficacy of switching power cords. To a man (and one man's wife as well!) they have been impressed, i.e. they have heard the difference - and heard it immediately. You assume a positive bias, but simple comparisons in a good audio system has been able to overcome negative bias in people.
I enjoy their shocked expressions and struggle to find explanations. :)

-You mention Pseudo-science and "...stuff which seems to operate by magic." Surely you are aware of the many persons in the cable industry who have engineering/electronics education? Surely you know about research white papers, discussions on websites of work with dielectric, conductor size/geometry and gauge? I'm not speaking of networked cables here as they are a special case, but of straight wire cable manufacturers. It is misinformed of you to state that there is no attempt at science/research behind cable manufacturing. Now, you may wish to disdain it, that's your choice. But to pretend it doesn't exist is inaccurate. If you wish to read some reviews with an eye toward the design element of cables I suggest you find my cable reviews on Dagogo.com.

Finally, you badly overreach with your Nessy, Alien, Yeti illustration. It actually harms your argument. Whereas one can trek the world and never see hide nor hair of these others, cables are a click away for anyone to solve the Great Cable Mystery! :)

Ok, I see that the can of worms has settled a bit. From my gathering and speaking to a local hi fi shop here, the consensus is that power cords can make a difference depending on the system and cord being used. I'll leave it at that and will try one in the near future to gauge for myself.

Thank you for those that chimed in with their personal experience. I will post feedback once I get to experiment on my own.

Chad329,

I think you have the right perspective.

Good luck!

Chad, you do have the right perspective; give it a shot to see if it's meritorious. Unlike some extreme sports there's very little permanent scarring. ;)

But I would urge you to work with at least 2 or three cables of one manufacturer (i.e. 2 or 3 power cords, or 2 sets of interconnects, etc). Trying one cord at a time is less evidential; like working with a canal system and only altering 1/5 of it. Some people have tried one cord and not heard much difference, then wrongly concluded that "cables don't matter". If you take a minimalist approach to it you shouldn't expect maximum results. A network of cables is influenced proportionately to how much you change the network, and similarly its influence upon the system.

Liguy from this discussion is reconsidering power cables since it appears he tried extremely similar cords. I admire his openness to take another look/test.

It will be enjoyable to read about your experience.