To answer the original question: based on my experience, and assuming the proper gauge for each application, *some* competently constructed power cables can affect the sound by:
a) lowering noise (line, RFI, etc); and
b) reducing impedance from the wall to the power supply vs other cables (thus improving impulse response, where required).
The audible effects can vary based on the resolution of the connecting component and the quality of its power supply, as well as affect the sound of components not necessarily directly connected with said cords (because said competently constructed cords radiate less noise, especially at the basic frequency of 50-60Hz; components that benefit so indirectly are usually phono stages) |
hi rrog:
when something sounds good, where audiophiles are involved, there is usually some disagreement. what constitutes "good" sound is subjective, so, i repeat, undeniable and opinion are oxymorons. |
I guess I've always had equipment with good power supplies. |
It is really ridiculous when the
"disbelievers" start speaking like politicians who have been asked a direct question then never actually address an applicable answer.
Here it is folks, it is undeniable, it is not opinion, it is not subject to interpretation...
A well designed aftermarket powercord when compared to a typical stock powercord [in an adequately resolving system which many/most of us already have ] can be readily distinguished from the stock cable repeatedly and consistently in blind testing over and over again. I have made this claim on previous threads about this and will re-state it again: thousands of audiophiles do this all the time...it is what helps them choose WHICH aftermarket cable they are going to spend their hard earned money ON...
This is a fact. Repeatedly choosing the correct cable 100% of the time (as I can in my system) is proof that powercords are audibly different from each other.
Period. Argument over. |
I sell aftermarket power cables because I absolutely feel they make a difference. However, how much of a difference they make is very system dependent. In my system, which is quite resolving, they actually make less of a difference than in some others because I already have excellent power with a dedicated line, very high quality outlet on this line, and an excellent line conditioner. Also one of my main components, the Bel Canto DAC3.5VB is fed by their VBS1 power supply, so a high quality power cord on this power supply would be a waste, in my opinion. However, when someone hears the difference that something like the VBS1 power supply makes, even in a system that already has very good power, it's hard to dismiss the importance of good power delivery. Aftermarket power cords do work, but how much you may or may not notice is based on many factors. |
08-15-11: Almarg
2)The differences reflect interactions between power cord characteristics, the characteristics of the particular incoming AC, and the particular components in the particular system, especially their power supplies.
3)There is no reason to expect much if any consistency of those interactions from system to system, and therefore no reason to expect much if any consistency or predictability of the sonic effects of a particular power cord.
4)While a power cord may have effects on the tonality of any given system, it is incorrect to attribute tonal characteristics to a power cord, because those tonal effects will vary from system to system. It seems to me that, in the comments above, Al has identified one of the most recurring flaws in the thinking of many audiophiles, namely that
If using component X results in audible difference Y, then audible difference Y is attributable to component X. On the face of it, this statement appears to be not only true, but self evident. But under quite common circumstances, it is false. Specifically, its false when the audible difference resulting from the use of a component is an EXTRINSIC characteristic of that component. An extrinsic characteristic is one that a thing has only IN RELATION TO other things. An intrinsic characteristic is one that a thing has INDEPENDENT OF other things. For example, mass is an intrinsic characteristic, weight is an extrinsic characteristic. Judging from many posts I have seen on Agon, there is a widespread tendency to believe that a components audible characteristic are INTRINSIC, even in cases where there is good reason to believe that they are EXTRINSIC. Al nicely summarized why the audible characteristics of power cords are largely extrinsic, but it seems to me that the same thing can be said of other types of components. The tendency to regard a things characteristics as intrinsic is a kind of localization fallacy, that is, a failure to recognize the characteristics dependence on the external things with which it interacts. For the record, Im guilty of the fallacy Im describing, so Im not casting stones. Just pointing out something that, I believe, results in needless confusion and disagreement here on Agon. I suspect that the tendency to regard a things characteristics as intrinsic is an inherent human bias. In any case, it seems to be an inherent audiophile bias. FWIW. Bryon |
Wonderful comment and insight, Bryon. I could not be in more complete agreement.
Another example that provides a good illustration of what you are referring to would be digital cables. Certainly different digital cables can produce different sonic results in a given system. But those differences will be the result of a complex set of interactions between their characteristics, such as impedance accuracy, shield resistance, shield quality, propagation velocity, the particular length that is used, etc., and the characteristics of the components that the cable is connecting, such as impedance accuracy, signal risetimes and falltimes, ground loop susceptibility, jitter rejection capability, etc. Once again resulting in there being little likelihood of a given cable having similar sonic effects across different systems, a point that seems to be commonly under-recognized.
Thanks! Best regards,
-- Al |
"Intrinsic" "extrinsic" "localization fallacy"
This PC business always gets heavy, dudes. ;) |
Those are wonderful posts guys, but I'm not sure the argument is as impeccable in practice as on the page. I have to wonder if those positions are based more on theory or experience. In my own experience, although maybe some of this extrinsic/intrinsic business does apply (and I would agree that a good bit of it does apply when it comes to speaker cables in particular), I have pretty much found that any power cord's sonic signature migrates between components with the cord to a significant extent. Whether all of those marriages are happy, within a given system context, is of course a different question. (In my own system, I have actually settled on one preferred model of power cord for all applications, but I didn't always operate this way.)
If your take is based on experience, then my own feeling would be that what you're actually responding to is mostly a simple matter of how well (or not) any particular cord's sound complements any particular component's sound (and vice versa) -- rather than believing that, as Al puts it, "it is incorrect to attribute tonal characteristics to a power cord, because those tonal effects will vary from system to system". To me, this represents an extreme conclusion that, while it may be arrived at logically (if imperfectly), simply doesn't correspond to what I've observed.
I think that like anything else, this just boils down to questions of synergy and preference. (A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position!) But like yours, that's just my opinion... |
Hi Zaikesman,
Lets take some specific examples, relevant to power cords:
1)Power cords will differ somewhat in terms of resistance. That will result in differences in the ac voltages that appear at the power connectors of the components to which they are connected. The voltage differences will vary depending on the current draw of the components, as well as on the resistance of the cords. Ill ignore the fact that those voItage differences may be overshadowed by fluctuations in the incoming line voltage that may occur from time to time, and from location to location. Is it expectable that the power cord-related voltage differences may be sonically significant? Certainly. Is it expectable that the resulting sonic differences among various components will be consistent and predictable?
I submit that experience and experimentation are irrelevant to the conclusion that the answer to that specific question is no. I say that as someone with multiple decades of experience designing advanced analog and digital circuits (not for audio). It would depend on how tightly regulated the power supplies of the components are, on the types of component parts that are used throughout the design, on the circuit topology that is used, on the thermal management provisions in the design, and on literally countless other component-dependent technical variables.
2)Power cords will differ somewhat in terms of shielding effectiveness. That will result in differences in the amount of rfi and noise that is presented to the power input of the connected component, as well as the amount of rfi and noise that is generated within that component that may couple from the power cord to other nearby components.
Is it expectable that those rfi and noise effects may have sonic consequences? Certainly. Is it expectable that those consequences will be consistent and predictable across different components, different systems, different physical arrangements of those components, and different interconnection configurations between those components? No way. Experience and experimentation are not necessary to reach that conclusion.
3)Power cords will differ in terms of inductance, which may, particularly in the case of power amplifiers, limit the speed with which abrupt changes in current demands can be responded to. Ill ignore the fact that the Romex in the walls will probably impose limitations in that response that are much more significant. Given that, is it conceivable that those differences will have sonic consequences? Certainly. Is it expectable that those sonic consequences will be consistent among Class A designs, whose current draw variations are relatively small, Class D designs where those variations are very large, and Class AB designs that fall at various points in between? Not to mention that within each design class there are innumerable other relevant variables, such as energy storage provisions. Once again, I would assert that experience and experimentation are irrelevant to the conclusion that the answer is no.
I respect the sincerity of your conclusions, and your experience-based observations. I am one who tries to keep an open mind about such matters, BUT WITHIN FINITE LIMITS. I define those limits based on reasonableness, common sense, and my technical understanding of how things work.
I would add that performing a truly meaningful comparison of a multitude of power cords, encompassing a multitude of different components and systems, while carefully identifying and controlling extraneous variables, both technical ones and psychological ones, is a formidable task that would be impracticable for most audiophiles. I have certainly not attempted to do that. I recognize that there are some who would claim to have done that, and to have reached conclusions similar to yours. But with all due respect, I remain skeptical. (And I repeat, that skepticism is not about the existence of differences, but about their consistency and predictability from system to system, and about the degree of correlation between cost and performance).
If you or anyone else can cite additional technical factors beyond the three I mentioned above, that might account for why power cords may make differences that can be expected to be consistent and predictable across multiple component and system configurations, and that rise above the level of speculation or marketing pseudo-science, I would be happy to consider them and comment further.
Regards,
-- Al |
Excellent!
60 posts and we're very close to a consensus.
Stay the course.
I'll check back at 90. |
there are very few phenomenon in life that are undeniable.
the basis for such a statement, that power cords differ, sonically, is sense perception.
how can something as imperfect as hearing be undeniable. in no way can one assert that "line cords differ sonically is knowledge".
by the way if someone uses the word undeniable, that person better be able to provide indubitable evidence or proof.
that one says i hear something, therefore it is undeniable, or 100 people hear something is undeniable is not based upon logic, but rather induction.
there are serious issues of logic here that need to be considered.
are there any necessary and sufficient conditions associated with perceptions ?
by the way, i have not said that line cords sound the same, but the differences perceived are opinions, not facts, as they are probobaliistic in nature.
what is the problem with asserting that one believes that line cords sound different based upon comparisons, and admitting that such an assertion is an opinion.
there is opinion , fact and knowledge. it is important to consider the distinction between opinion and fact. |
08-19-11: Zaikesman
I have to wonder if those positions are based more on theory or experience. In my own experience, although maybe some of this extrinsic/intrinsic business does apply (and I would agree that a good bit of it does apply when it comes to speaker cables in particular), I have pretty much found that any power cord's sonic signature migrates between components with the cord to a significant extent. Hi Zaikesman Your point about theory vs. experience is well taken. I have a weakness for being theoretical, as anyone who has read my posts can testify to. Having said that, I generally regard myself as an empiricist, which is to say, I believe that most bodies of knowledge result from experience, whether direct or indirect. But that acknowledgment is not a denigration of theory, for the following reason: ALL knowledge is theory laden. For that matter, all PERCEPTION is theory laden, though unlike most theories, which are written in books, the theories of perception are written in our DNA. But now I'm getting theoretical again. As for my experience with power cords, I have not found the same consistency across diverse applications that you have. So whats to be done when audiophiles disagree about their experiences? Not much, I suppose. Im not generally a fan of sarcasm, but Audiofeils last comment struck me as funny, and à propos. I will say this: I do not doubt your experience or your expertise. I tend to believe what most audiophiles say when they describe what they hear, even though Im aware of the existence of all kinds of unconscious influences to perception and judgment. In light of that, I would be interested to hear more about the particulars of the experiences you mentioned in which power cables exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. I would also be interested to hear your response to Als recent comments which, to my mind, make a compelling, albeit theoretical, argument that casts doubt on the position you are advancing. I'm not being challenging. I'm being sincere. I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment... A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position! On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listeners impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems? Bryon |
Hi Al, thank you for your thoughtful response. It does seem to answer my question about whether your position that power cords can't have an intrinsic 'sound' is taken primarily from theory or listening.
I am not qualified to submit to you the existence of other possible technical factors beyond the ones you listed, and indeed there may be none (though I did wonder why you omitted capacitance -- I'm sure you have a reason and will explain it). But I tend to be skeptical about any assertion that the things we know to measure for are necessarily the only qualities we would ever want or need to measure, relevent to correlating with subjective sonic impressions, if only we knew what and how. (Not that you have specifically asserted such.)
I would however venture to guess that questions of what I will loosely lump under the umbrella term of resonance, not only of the mechanical kind, may play a part. And I do believe that, despite the sorts of well-recognized factors you describe and nobody would dispute, it's highly likely that no one actually possesses the knowledge or wherewithal to sit down with a blank sheet of paper to design a power cord and know in advance just what it will sound like. (I think there's a bit of a crapshoot-factor here -- some call it 'black art' -- that demands reiterative, trial-and-error experience involving subjective listening in the design process in order to accumulate a useful knowledge base -- at least for honest designers who aren't just 'badge engineering' their products and slapping a fancy jacket on them to go along with the high price tag). But of course for those who share your take that power cords can't 'have sounds' in the first place, that assumption, even if true, would not present a conceptual hurdle.
There's nothing particularly difficult, from the standpoint of either practicality or the ability to draw valid conclusions, about an audiophile getting his or her hands on a few different power cords, trying them on various components, and seeing whether or not any consistencies in sonic signature tend to migrate with the cords to a perceptible degree. You could do it as easily as I. If you did, I'd wager that you just might reconsider whether you've satisfactorily explained everything there may be to think about from the theoretical perspective.
Fortunately however, the whole question is largely trivial and moot in my view. Whether or not power cords, or any cables for that matter, possess their own intrinsic 'sounds', or whether such qualities, to the extend we believe and can observe that they exist at all, are purely extrinsic in nature, at the end of the day we all still need some kind of wires to hook up and plug in our gear with. And unless you're going to design and make your own, or are hell-bent on just going to Home Despot and buying off the reel without subjectively evaluating anything else, so as to conform with preexisting beliefs (however apparently logical) -- or maybe just in order to save money (quite logical if someone has never heard a difference) -- then there's really nothing else to do but identify a few likely candidates, quite probably based on theoretical considerations among others, and then listen to music through them. Except of course if debating about it online is the higher priority... ;^)
Cheers, that's all I got, I'm out! |
Interesting thread as always when this topic comes up...sorta. Loved Audiofiels last post especially!
I am very fortunate to possess 2 invaluable qualities I have cherished in exploring this subject: Ignorance and apathy. These items have helped me keep the whole process pretty damn simple. I have very little knowledge of the inerworkings of electricity, power supplies/delivery etc and as important, I really do not care to learn the details. I do care how music sounds in my living room so the issue of power cords has been messed around with for a few years now. What my simple exercises have taught me is that power cords influence my systems performance and different cords have a sonic signature or character that is consistent (fairly) across different component groups. Actually, it's really kinda obvious once you start putting them in and listening so it always baffles me when others post they are not able to hear it....but....in the bigger picture I don't care that much as I really am mainly interested in how music sounds in my living room, not so much in yours! I am not so sure why I felt compelled to contribute here but I did none the less.
Lets take a simple example, just for sake of ease... Nordost Vallhala power cord. Now, it is a nice cord that does some things well and some things not so well. I would guess that if you took some time and searched a large sample of forum posts that described what these power cords sound like there would be a relatively consistent sonic picture painted. Why? In fact, if I asked you guys to describe this cord, I would guess that many would have very similar adjectives. Same could be said for Tara's family of power cables which sound dramatically different than Nordost. Most of the folks who would chime in came to the understanding of these characters by listening to the cords. How is it possible that all these unrelated parties in unrelated systems seem to come up with the very same sonic images that occur when these specific cords are inserted in their system? |
Zaikesman and Richard, you are correct.
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used. Testing over one dozen sets of cables on multiple components/speakers has cemented this for me.
The nature (geometry, gauge, conductor material, dielectric, etc.) of the cable (which travels with the cable, obviously) trumps the extrinsic interactions between it and components/speakers. A cable which, in comparision to a different set, sounds dull, will sound dull on any rig. A cable, which in comparison to another set sounds bass heavy, will sound bass heavy on any rig. etc. I have absolutely not found any cable which is a chamelion, i.e. changing it's sonic nature such that sounds dramatically different on a variety of gear, such as highly detailed with one system while sounding dull with another system.
You two guys have found one of the secrets of building a superior system. Most audiophiles are too unwilling to spend the money or too unwilling to spend the time to discover it. :)
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names, and I used to be too chintzy to conduct the tests myself. I'm very glad I got over it.
I have no problem with a person who simply has no interest or the means to pursue a rig to the point of chasing down cabling. I do have a problem with someone who wants to tell others what's possible when they haven't lifted a finger to test it. I like the sentiment: While some are saying, "It can't be done," others are out doing it.
By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences.
This fits perfectly with my Law of Efficacy, which states that a change must be heard immediately (typically within seconds, not mintues, hours or longer), and be deemed easy enough to describe without a struggle. He admitted that he had not been so much of a cable enthusiast but that the difference was distinct. In other words, he was learning that power cords are more important than he thought.
This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable canges can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I didn't even need to change the entire set for them to reach that conclusion, just a set of ICs or two power cords! A demo in moments convinced him more than hours of talking would.
I've stopped being surprised at how surprised manufacturers and distributors are at such demonstrations. I realize most of them have never conducted such tests. If even the industry people aren't conducting these tests, should I expect the average audiophile to? Probably not.
I simply won't argue indefinitely with someone who is capable of conducting simple tests and refuses. Then, why do I occasionally post my comments? Because there are some lurkers who will actually act on my advice and find out I'm right. They will be the big winners in terms of listening experience. :)
There, I've made my contribution toward 90, if anyone's counting. ;) |
Mr. Schroeder, You said it more eloquently than I ever could and a hearty "Thank you" for adding such a convincing post... I have personally answered several similar posts and always ended on a frustrated note even when exclaiming how [exactly as you said] the differences are clearly noticeable right away and both distinctive and consistent.
There is no argument here. There is no countering the fact that in every single application where, in a reasonably revealing system, differences between powercords can be "instantly and consistently determined" 100% of the time (as several visitors have done in my listening room and I'm sure thousands of other rooms as well) that this IS therefore a proven factual statement.
NO argument. Did I say 100% of the time?? Oh yes, I did...I actually meant 100% of the time... that is 100% of the time...
Got it guys Instantly and consistently. No excuses, no guesses... It is what it is. For those of you who ever doubted it I suggest you try it for yourself and enjoy investigating the amazing world of what aftermarket powercords can do to improve YOUR system's listening enjoyment.
Happy Lissn'n |
08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used...
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names... Al and I have been advancing the view that the audible characteristics of power cords are likely to be extrinsic, and therefore are likely to vary to some extent across diverse applications. Perhaps you don't mean to imply that we are either lazy or cheap, though that is one interpretation of your comments, even if you decline to name names. I am occasionally lazy and occasionally cheap, though I can't say that I've been either with respect to power cords. If you click on my system, you will see that I currently have 3 power cords in my system with an MSRP of over $1000. The rest of the power cords in the system easily add up to another $500. That's $3.5k in power cords. I did buy some of the cords used, so I didn't spend the whole 3.5, but I spent an appreciable fraction of that. So much for being cheap. As far as being lazy, I won't pretend that I've done a carefully controlled study of the audible effects of power cords under scientifically valid conditions. I suspect that virtually no one has done that, though perhaps you have. What I can say is what I said in my last post, namely that, in my experience, I have not found that power cords have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. Admittedly, my experience is limited. And I recognize that there are audiophiles with far greater experience than my own. That is why I asked Zaikesman, in all sincerity, to report the particulars of his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. Maybe he didn't see my question. By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences...This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable changes can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I don't doubt what this speaker manufacturer heard in your listening room, and for that matter, I don't doubt what you've heard in your listening room, but I will point out that the story above provides no evidence that the audible changes you experienced were INTRINSIC to the cables. Changing a cable and then hearing a difference does not tell you whether the difference heard is attributable to characteristics of the cable itself or to characteristics of the cable's interactions with the components to which it is attached. Neither I nor Al has expressed doubt that power cables can result in audible differences. We have expressed doubt, in different ways, about whether the differences that are heard among power cables are attributable solely to the cables themselves. It is clear from your post that you believe that they are, but what you report in your post does provide a reason for that conclusion. I suspect you do in fact have a reason, as I have read some of your other posts, and found you a knowledgable and reasonable person. For those of us with less experience, can you provide a specific example or two in which a power cord exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications? Bryon |
Bryon, as usual, quite logical and concise discussion. I made the statement regarding chintzy people and those without desire to work at it due to the sheer abundance of times these issues arise, not to infer that you or Al are pegged as one or the other. I do not mean to be offensive in any way. :)
I have to laugh; last night I watched 'Shark Tank' and in one segment a belt buckle manufacturer was called a pig (greedy) by one shark and another suggested he was lying about his sales. So, one shark concludes of the man, "So, he's a liar and a pig!" The man stood there stunned; it was them labeling him then reinforcing the label! So, Bryan, if you feel I've labeled you, my apologies. As you demonstrate, you're not chintzy with cables. :)
Ironically, I used to pride myself on my chintziness as an audiophile. I would go down to the local high end store where I had the nickname "The Bottom Feeder" (as in aquarium fish) because I sought super-economical cast offs from others. I wouldn't have dreamed of spending serious money for cables. It was only comparisons, and later, comparisons of entire sets, which utterly changed by perspective. Talk did nothing to sway me; only experience mattered. You must admit, there are a lot of audiophiles like that - and no, I'm not insinuating you are one! I find it ironic that there are other audiophiles for which talk/discussion is the final arbiter of the 'truth' of cables, even though simple comparison is quite easy. :)
If you are seeking controlled experiements I'll not be offering them for you. My position is that the difference sonically between cables in order to be efficacious must be so great that a controlled experiment is not necessary. If I cannot (or others in the room with me) can't hear the distinction, if we have to strain to hear a difference, or can't hear a difference immediatetly then the cable, preamp, etc. fails instantly. Above all, in this matter the result has to be practical; I am not into chasing marginal improvements in a rig. Similarly, to ascertain if a cable is 'carrying' its sonic properties the effect has to be so evident, so obvious that one would easily conclude the cable to be influencing the rig with it's sonic properties.
Perhaps the analogy of a sunset would help here. While not measuring but simply observing the sunset one can say with certainty that the sky five minutes after the last observation has changed. Does the person have "data" for that obseveration? No. Are they wrong? No. Clearly, observational experience is all that is necessary to determine a valid argument and conclusion. Now if I told you about it would you demand data from me to believe it? Why do we accept observations in one setting but not in another? (No need to answer; it's a hypothetical question pointing out that for the individual observation can be plenty adequate to be convincing of 'reality').
What if one were to look at the sky five seconds later? Or perhaps one minute later? Would the sky look different? Much more unlikely. I would equate looking at the sky five seconds later to hearing a set of cables which are similar in design/sound. In that case the proposed upgrade would be a fail in terms of the Law of Efficacy. The change has to be dramatic, like looking at the sky five minutes later, every bit as powerful/dramatic as a component change. One wire on its own typically can't do that, but a set can.
I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result. I do not wish to share that information at this time. I've spent a lot of time on cables and teasing out their practical application in systems!
This is what I am doing, taking listening "measurements" with different conditions. My observations have held without exception; EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.
I am fairly adamant that this friendly debate cannot be settled apart from testing sets of cables. The entire premise that a cable carries intrinsic sound properties is impossible to conclude based upon mixing them. If you stick a cable in one mix and move it to another mix what have you done? Nothing with certainty! What you have done is reinforce the false notion that cables have no consistent sound! Hundreds of audiophiles do this and reach the wrong conclusion!
Only by hearing sets and hearing them transferred to different equipment as compared to another set will reveal clearly that a cable's intrinsic properties travel with it. |
a cables intrinsic attributes can be impacted by the other components of a stereo system. for example, suppose, a power cord has an audible peak in the treble. bring that power cord to a system consisting of classic tube electronics and a speaker which may be attenuated in the treble. the character of the cable may be obscured.
if a stereo system is relatively uncolored and reasonably resolved, then the character of any component is relatively easy to discern. if a stereo system has some (egregious) or observable coloration it will be harder to identify the sonic nature of a component. |
Douglas - Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. It's difficult to advocate a view in the face of opposition while remaining a gentleman. Thank you for doing that. I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result
EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected. This observation is actually easier for me to believe than some of the other observations that have been made on this thread, and it highlights the need to distinguish the following two views
(1) SETS of power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different SYSTEMS. (2) INDIVIDUAL power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different COMPONENTS within the same system. For whatever reason, (1) is easier for me to believe than (2). Maybe that is nothing more than a prejudice on my part. Its clear from the passage I quoted above that, in your experience, (1) is true. I am interested to hear whether, in your experience, (2) is also true. In other words
Lets say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source? bc |
hi byron:
i believe if you change the amp using the same cord, the roll off may disappear. if it doesn't, it suggests the cord may have a problem. you can't know what is causing the roll off until you co vary the power cord and amp.
a thorough logical analysis is required when you have two variables to look at. |
Bryan, some great thoughts which show you are open-minded about all of this as well as able to think critically.
Your question in regard to the distinction between systems and components is a good one. My answer is that in general, yes, a specific cord does retain its properties no matter the component it is attached to. It will be influenced differently by the component, but it will still exhibit the same characteristics which result because of its design/construction. Such a conclusion becomes evident when comparing entire sets of cables. As one PC at a time is swapped out the effect of it is heard across the sound of the system. Conducting the incremental testing twice, once with each set of cables, shows clearly what the influence of the particular brand will be.
You will not get the identical result when you move the PC from the amp to the pre or source; there will be fine gradations, or permutations, of a similar sound. However, consistently, when compared individually to a different PC put through the same paces, yes the characteristics of that power cord will remain the same. The alternative PC will also retain its characteristics as it is put on amp, pre, or source.
However, since doing so will alter the sound it becomes impossible for a person who has mixed cords to realize this! That is why I insist that the only way to determine that cables carry their particular character to all components is by enlisting an entire suite of them and comparing to a different suite of cables.
Regarding your specific question: Lets say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?
The answer is no one knows if it will or will not if a mixed set of cables is being used, i.e. if that particular power cable is swapped with the one on the pre/source. I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. If, however, an entire set of cables is being used and the noted effect of a particular cable is a roll off of bass, and you have noted this on several components such as tube amps/SS amps, sources, preamps, then yes, you might expect more of the same when additional cables are inserted.
The effect of a cable is compounded when additional ones of the same brand/type are inserted. That also has been consistent in my casual testing over the years. If a cable rolls off the spectrum on the ends, it becomes more evident that it is doing so the more pieces are added to the rig. Conversely, if a cable brings additional definition, adding more of them will bring increased definition.
My position is that cables are not "captive" (pun!) sonically to the component which they are servicing, that is they do not entirely take on the character of that component. There is a particular sonic "flavor" which travels with them to whatever component is being serviced.
I have confirmed this using both different brands of cables and different models of the same brand of cables, be they PC, IC or SC, as well as digital coax.
I have concluded the reason audiophiles do not discover such things is that typically they do not conduct thorough enough investigation through comparisons and/or have been using mixed cables, which negates the entire excercise. |
Hi Byron, I thought I was done here but as you surmised that was before I saw your questions, which derserve to be answered. Unfortunately I have been otherwise occupied and will continue to be for a while. Please give me a chance to read and digest what has been posted since and I will return when I am able to respond further. |
I got to say there is some fascinating and thought provoking discussion here from all camps! And how eloquent and succinct many of you are in presenting your case.
I have a few thoughts;
1. I find myself leaning toward the cables sound will be influenced by all the variables it encounters. Even though certain construction qualities may have a basic quantifiable effect on the sound I think the myriad other interactions the cable encounters will alter those characteristics significantly.
2. So, I think the cable will sound different from system to system. I even wonder if the sonic qualities would vary at time of day? After all we all have read or experienced "my system sounds better at night?" Purportedly this is attributable to cleaner, less noisy power being supplied to the household. So couldn't it stand to reason the characteristics attributed to the cable may in fact be something else? Even change throughout the day? Same could be said of all the components in a system I suppose.
3. Also if the cable was changed from system to system, and differing brands of cable were used in these systems, couldn't that effect said characteristics? I mean does'nt the change of a component and its reaction to the rest of the system modify the sound?
4. If all these variables effect a single cable, is it not possible it would do the same for complete sets of cables? Although perhaps to a lesser degree. I have no experience experimenting with this but it stands to reason that complete sets of cables by a manufacturer in a system could yield a more cohesive, predictable end product. Being that the cable set is of the same construction throughout therefore sharing the same characteristics.
5. I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?
6. I agree that if a difference made by a product is not readily apparent, then it may be non-existent or so minute that it is not worth the effort.
I am be no means an expert. But have easily heard differences in systems and have to believe that many things influence those differences. Including interactions of components, time of day, enviornment, power supplied, etc.
I enjoy music and listening to it reproduced well. I haven't spent the time nor have the resources to swap out components to ascertain its effect on the sound. Hell my system cost me about 2/3s of what Bryon has in cables, although retailed for more.
Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective. But I do find the positions offered by Al, Bryon and others the ones I find most reasonable and agreeable to me.
I am not saying the others are mistaken, one thing I've learned is we all hear things differently, real or perceived. And will continue to do so. Thats what makes this so interesting. And even can teach one something or open our eyes to other trains of thought.
These are just opinions on my part, right or wrong. I look forward to continued debate.
Again, what a great thread.
Best,
Dave |
Corazon, you are also contributing well to the discussion, thank you.
Here are your answers based on my experiences with comparing sets of cables:
#1 Absolutely cables' sound ARE influenced by a myriad of system variables. I am not taking the position that such things as input or output impedance, etc. don't effect cables.
At the same time, I am insisting that the cables' own nature/build dictates sonic attributes which it brings to the system, and that these attributes are fixed, not variable.
#2-3 Now, the cable will sound different from system to system. However, the qualities which the cable possesses will also be easily identified, especially when compared to another set which one is familiar with. i.e. a "dull" sounding cable will sound dull with all electronics in comparison to a cable which sounds bright and detailed with all electronics. One does not obtain this knowledge from mixing cables, only from using complete sets in comparison. Obviously, if one is mixing cables and inserting new ones here and there assurance of the sound of the cable is impossible.
For that reason, Mrtennis' suggestion to switch into the mix a new amp is useless. One has no certainty that the amp is not causing the roll off in bass. The only way to gain certainty is by using complete sets of cables from one manufacturer.
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? I find the argument that there is no fixed sound to a cable quite intellectually faulty. A person, it seems, arrives at that conclusion from theory perhaps, but listening comparisons do not support that theory. I believe that actual comparison would quite handily convince someone that cables do present their own properties which are integral to them.
#4 I am also leading to the conclusion that a set of cables with preferred properties sonically will yield a predictable result, a desired result. One cable will bring a certain degree of those sonic properties, but a set will amplify them. When one finds a favored cable, that set of cables can be used to transfer those properties onto ANY system. This is precisely what cable manufacturers are claiming their cables can do. Yet it seems so many audiophiles simply ignore that claim and mix the cables, thereby destroying/mitigating any possibility of discovering the particular qualities the manufacturer intended!
Corazon, you say in #5. "I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?" Yup. Precisely. But remember, my position is that blind tests are not even needed! The difference is SO apparent that if one said they needed a blind test I would consider their hearing suspect.
#6 Yes, why chase marginal "improvements"?
Hopefully my ruminations will get some people to reconsider their position on cabling and on how to approach cables as a component. Remember, I was vociferously assured that I was right when I held the opinion that 1. Cables were not that big a deal, and 2. One did not have to work with matched sets. I was wrong on both counts, and cables handled properly have been a crucial element of creating superior sounding systems.
Finally, Corazon, I quote your thought, "Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective." That can change. Just start culling cables and comparing; you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to reinforce that Al and Bryon's points are cogent, their logic compelling. However, compelling logic does not determine the outcome of listening tests. Remember that even though I do not have the engineering background to argue from theory, my position is defensible by the fact that there are actual/physical changes between the cables/sets being compared. The decision one must make is whether or not such differences in cables can yield audibly discernible differences. On the one hand are people who have not tested it and said, "No, it cannot." On the other hand I stand - and I have tested it, and of course say, "Yes, it does!"
Now, if the others wish to conduct the simple listening tests/comparisons between sets and then return and state that their informal tests supported the theory that cable geometry, dielectric, conductor material, total gauge, etc. has no bearing on the sound of a cable when transferred between components, I would be happy to hear about it.
But to simply say, "I don't think it will have an influence," when physical differences exist between cables, and I have tested and found there to be sonic differences; well, I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by such logic. :)
I am saying the others are mistaken, but politely so! ;)
Survey: How many of you have conducted comparisons between a few sets of cables? What was your conclusion? I think it would be very telling if these people chimed in. My guess is that very few have done so, perhaps even very few dealers, distributors or manufacturers. This is likely why there are often a couple of zealous persons arguing my perspective while so many take the opposite viewpoint. I believe the vast majority of audiophiles have never dealt with complete sets of cables in comparison. It's costly (at least temporarily) and time consuming to do so. It's so much easier to conclude, "It's not that big of a deal..." But it IS.
How big of a deal is it? I never had a system yielding complete satisfaction when listening to it until I got serious about working with sets of cables. I would encourage audiophiles who consider themselves "extreme" or serious enthusiasts to pursue the comparison of sets of cables. I have found it to be a terrifically rewarding activity.
I discuss some similar principles in my Audiophile Laws which are published on Dagogo.com. They can be found in the "Columns" section of the website. Some may seem controversial or counter-intuitive, however they are all based on practical considerations and actual informal testing, not just theory. In other words, they work. :) |
hi doug:
ceteris paribus, if you have one power cord and two amps, and the bass is rolled with one amp and not with the other, the problem may not be with the cable.
as a practical issue, if you like the amp you have, you may try different cords to see which, if any do not produce a roll off.
in any case, when you have an amp and a power cord, there are two variables. |
HELLO yes but if you dont think so dont buy any. |
If spark plugs, the type of oil, tires, and gasoline can make a difference in performance and efficiency of any given vehicle so can audiophile tweeks. Any nay sayers are just thinking signal in, is signal out. My ears are more sensitive than a piece of test equipment sending a pattern through cable. I do not hear in test signals. Let's lay to rest this cables make no difference crap. My ears are the scientific instrument! |
I first want to second the comments by Dave (Corazon) about the quality and value of many of the posts in this thread. While it is of course not expectable that a clear consensus will be reached, or that many minds will be changed by the debate, it seems clear that more than a few of the posts above are potentially of uncommonly high value, to both protagonists and readers, compared to those that typically appear in threads devoted to cables, and especially to power cords. If only by virtue of stimulating and broadening each persons thinking. A question for Doug: In your several references to the value of testing with complete sets of cables from the same manufacturer, are you referring to complete sets of just power cords, or to sets comprising power cords, speaker cables, line-level interconnects, and perhaps also phono cables. If the latter, then I not only find your arguments to be technically plausible, but even expectable. As I indicated in a post earlier in this thread, IMO extrinisic technical factors relating to cables which conduct analog signals can easily explain the existence of sonic signatures, that will be consistent and predictable across multiple components and systems, obviously not in degree, but in kind. Some examples: Speaker cables having low inductance will, everything else being equal, provide increased high frequency extension, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the speakers impedance at high frequencies. Lesser degree, of course, will include some cases in which the effect is audibly insignificant, especially if the cable is short. Interconnect cables having low capacitance will do the same, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the output impedance of the component driving the cable. Unbalanced interconnect cables having low resistance in their shield or other return conductor will reduce ground loop-related hum and/or high frequency noise that may tend to occur with electronic components in some setups, thereby improving background blackness and resolution of low level detail. On the other hand, if your reference to complete sets refers to just power cords, then while I think your comments support your case much more persuasively than most others that tend to be encountered in threads dealing with this subject matter, and although I obviously am not in a position to question or doubt your extensive relevant listening experience, and although I certainly do not believe that generally recognized technical principles can come close to explaining all of our sonic perceptions, the combination of lack of convincing technical rationale which is inherent in that position, and what I perceive to be the major degree of technical counter-intuitiveness of that position, still leaves me skeptical (concerning consistency and predictability across multiple systems, as well as price/performance correlation, not concerning the existence of differences!). Also, it should be kept in mind that comparison of multiple complete sets of power cords in a given system, at a given location, does not provide data points relevant to proving consistency or predictability of the effects of those cords across differing ac line conditions, including differences in line voltages, line noise, and line distortion conditions that are likely to be encountered at differing locations. 08-20-11: Zaikesman
though I did wonder why you omitted capacitance -- I'm sure you have a reason and will explain it I didnt mention capacitance because I would not expect its effects to be quantitatively significant in a power cord application. Even if they were, I would expect those effects to only occur at very high rf frequencies, causing them to be, once again, unpredictable, inconsistent, and system and setup dependent. Best regards, -- Al |
Douglas - Thank you for your detailed response. 08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. This has been my experience with power cords. It is largely for that reason that I've expressed skepticism about power cords having consistent audible characteristics. As I understand your view, the consistent characteristics of power cords are particularly audible when you use sets of power cords from the same manufacturer. I use several identical power cords from the same manufacturer (Shunyata), and I can't say that I've noticed any consistent audible characteristics when adding each new cord to various components. I think of myself as a careful listener, but maybe I'm missing something. In any case, like Al, I'm curious to know whether your observation that sets of cables exhibit consistent audible characteristics applies to power cords alone, or to power cords + interconnects + speaker cables. 08-21-11: Douglas_schroeder
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? To clarify, I have not been advancing the view that power cables have infinitely flexible characteristics. I've been advancing the view that there is reason to doubt that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. That is a considerably more conservative view. It also bears repeating that I'm NOT saying that all cables are equal, or that changing cables does not result in audible changes to a system's sound. I very much believe that cables change the way a system sounds, INCLUDING power cables. I am simply skeptical about the CONSISTENCY of those changes, when the cable in question is a power cable. So, I come out more or less where Al does, in that I remain skeptical that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. But your comments have peaked my curiosity about experimenting a bit, so perhaps in the future I will discover something unexpected. In other words, I am skeptical, but not dogmatic. I should also point out that I am in complete agreement with Al about the differences between power cables and analog interconnects/speaker cables. The skepticism I've expressed about power cables has no bearing on my views about other kinds of cables. Bryon |
Al, If I have you thinking that's a good thing; it means there's some meat on my comments. :)
When I use the terms 'sets' or 'suites" of cables I mean the whole group - PC/IC/SC/ and digital or phono, whichever applicable. If one uses only a power cord or two or one set of interconnects there is a possibility that the difference is so small it will be difficult to perceive. Persons with hearing loss will find these kinds of comparisons unsatisfying and be tempted to proclaim that there is nothing to the cable mania. This is especially so if the cables are built similarly. In such instances it may take the entire set and still the two brands might sound similar. I found in my comparisons that Acoustic Zen and Harmonic Technology (not the fiber optic cables, but the ones with metal conductors) sounded very close to each other. If one happened to compare them without being aware of their very similar construction/design they would be tempted to conclude erroneously that all cables sound the same.
However, when two rather differently designed and constructed sets are compared (i.e. Magnan Cables and Wireworld) the difference is usually easily heard. And when an entire set is swapped out there is a sea change of sound. If I were to swap out only the set of power cords the effect would be consistent but moderated. As I have said before, often the change of an entire set is so pronounced as to be similar to switching a box component, either source, pre, or amp.
My observations have been consistent when comparing sets of power cables only, or sets of Interconnects only. Logically they would have to, or else my assertion would not have merit. The sum of the effect of the set is nothing other than each cable exerting its influence upon the signal.
I am sure that what I am stating is counter-intuitive. However, it can be demonstrated quite persuasively in a rater simple fashion; by merely swapping sets of cables!
(oh, wow, my wife just brought me a plate with a cut fresh nectarine! YUMMY!)
I would suggest that your objections due to the differing AC line conditions, noise etc. are fairly inconsequential to the effect of the cables. I have had consistent results when I tested different cables at others' homes/systems. I also have heard consistent effects from cables when using all manner of power filtration/regeneration devices. Essentially power treatment or lack of it does not mask a cables' unique sonic properties.
Al, all that really remains is for you to actually test my theory. By the way, you used an illustration of a set of cables with low inductance providing greater high frequency extension depening on the speakers' impedance.
My observations are that such a cable will provide extended high frequencies no matter what speaker you use. The effect may be more noticeable/intense with a speaker with higher impedance, but certainly does not disappear when using a speaker of lower impedance.
It's quite simple; a cable brand (PC/IC/SC) which has rolled off the high end will do so with any speaker. One which extends the high end will do so with any speaker. And so on. Why? Because of the construction/design of the cables. |
Hi Byron, I'm sorry, but this otherwise very nice discussion is just too far off into the weeds for me to want to compound it further by delving into the boring specifics of my own experiences with power cords. You sound like you've done just as much experimentation as I have, so if you reached somewhat different conclusions, that's good enough for me. Regardless of whether or not the 'sound' associated with a cable is extrinsic, intrinsic, or, as I think most of us would probably accept, a mixture of both (a description that in my book would apply to all audio components), it seems to me that as long as one can hear the differences, no theoretical conclusions regarding this factor would be likely to ultimately affect one's choices. The debate probably arises (once again) because we are talking about cables in general, and power cords in particular, which still tend to be regarded by many as though they are somehow extraneous to the signal path. About this: I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment...
A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position!
On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listeners impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems? I would take exception with two of your premises there. First, I don't consider a change in seating position to be at all minor. To me that can certainly be more significant than almost any change in wires (or of almost any component of similar type and quality, for that matter). As for the second, I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting? |
when i was shopping for the quad 63, i visited several dealers until i heard what i liked. so it is obvious that speakers will sound different for a variety of reasons.
if i change my listening position from kneeling to sitting to standing, my quads (esl) will sound different. those who own this speaker will attest to my experiences.
changing ones seating position , while changing the sound of a stereo system, saying that the line cord contributed to the change in sound seems counter intuitive.
could someone explain how this could happen.
is it reasonable to also say that the performance of an amp could change with listening position.
listening position affects how sound is dispersed to your ears. amplifiers, power cords, and other passive and active components , excluding a speaker, do not disperse or propagate sound waves. |
expensive power cords are funny! some of you should find some uber expensive wire and redo your entire electrical system from the pole in front of your house to the outlet! out of curiosity, i wonder why every manufacture doesnt sell an optional upgraded power cord with their amps,cd players,preamps,etc.,since so many people think they hear an improvement with them? it could be that the cord supplied is good enough in my opinion. |
The seating position discussion has muddied the waters unnecessarily. I believe the intent was to discuss the fact that other variables are at work, as well as the variable of the sound of the cables. I would hope we all agree that seating postion has no absolute effect upon the performance of the cords. Perceptually, however, the system may sound quite different when seating position is changed, and one might find themselves more agreeable to the system. However, likely not.
It has been my experience that seating position does not have the "power" as a change to radically alter one's perception of what the cords are doing. Yes, I have changed seating positions while working with cords, and no, it has not had a significant effect on my conclusions about how any particular cords sound. While it does alter the experience it does not override the cables' performance when compared. I have selected the same cables as my preference regardless of the seating position (within reason, of course).
Recently, after having the same seating position for five years elected to move my chair 5" closer to the speakers. The sacrifice is in the sharpness of the center image, but in exchange I have more bass presence and a slightly more 3-D soundstage. Doing so has had no impact upon my decisions regarding cables.
I haven not tested the following thought, but it is quite possible that I would prefer a system where I was not in my favorite seating position (i.e. 5" off, like my previous listening position) yet had superior cords versus one where the seating position was "improved" and had poorer cords in use. Going off of my past experiences I would prefer the system with the better cabling.
People who think room treatments and seating position get you 90% of the way "there" (As though cheaper gear set up well will get you almost SOTA sound; it will not) will likely choke on that statement. However, anyone who's conducted tests of sets of cables as I have will likely agree.
Similarly, at times I change the inside angle of my panel speakers; once again this has not changed my conclusions regarding any particular cables.
Based on continued testing I would not consider listening position to be a dominant factor in cable selection. |
I still do keep hope alive of someday getting off this thread, but (very simplistically): If you're sitting in one spot, you might react positively to a cord substitution that subjectively tightens the bass response. If you're sitting in another position, even with the same system, you might instead react more positively to a cord substitution that subjectively mellows the treble, or whatever. (The same would also apply to a change in speaker placement, choice of music, etc.) Remember, this is always in relation to the use of some other power cord; it's not possible to compare against no cord at all.* The same goes for listening position -- there is no neutral reference, only preference for a given set of circumstances, and when circumstance changes so may preference.
*[By contrast, it is often possible to evaluate interconnects against the neutral reference of their absence from the chain, rather than purely against one another. It's called bypass-testing, and it's more objective than conventional, subjective substitution testing, but few seem to do it, or even know about it. One easy way to do this, which I use, is by placing two competing interconnects under test into a remote-controllable preamp's A and B tape loops. Then from the listening seat it's a simple matter to, with no switchover delay, select and deselect first loop A a few times, then do the same with loop B, by which method the addition of each interconnect into the chain is compared against the direct feed (the 'bypass', or that interconnect's absence from the chain -- you are NOT switching directly from loop A to loop B; you're switching each loop in and out of the chain in turn, always listening next to the direct feed as your baseline reference). Whichever of the two interconnects alters the sound the least (or least objectionably) as compared with the direct feed wins the round (and can advance to a subsequent round if more than two interconnects are being tested). If you've never done something like this before, you might be surprised at actually 'hearing' your interconnects in isolation for the first time.]
And since I'm posting, I'll risk adding that I don't subscribe to the notion, advanced above, that changing out a whole suite of 'em in unison is the best way to evaluate power cords. The choice shouldn't be between exchanging two different cords between two components, which is obviously confounding, or else going to that other extreme. As with any test, it's always best to hold the variables down to a single controlled one if possible. In this case that means substituting one cord on one component while the others are held constant. In the case of changing out all the cords together, to me that's unecessarily introducing too many variables at once; you may certainly get a feel for the 'sound' of that new model of cord vs. whatever suite of cords was replaced, but not for how that cord synergizes with each individual component, which means you may overshoot the mark and miss the optimum configuration. Of course one may work one's way toward progressively replacing them all with the new cord, after having thoroughly evaluated that model by serially substituting it throughout the existing system (as ultimately happened with me), but I expect that for most audiophiles, like for myself, acquiring multiple duplicate cords before having even comprehensively evaluated a single example represents a putting of the cart before the horse and is unrealistic. (I also don't buy the notion, however helpful and comforting it may be, that one must hear any changes obviously and immediately or else they are rendered definitionally insignificant.) |
do not confuse a component with a stereo system.
dispersion is at work when one changes the listening position. it has nothing to do with a compoent.
while you may prefer a line cord from one position or another, it is the same cord, and its function has not changed. what has changed is possibly frequency response, imaging, etc., because of the relationship between sound waves and your ears. |
let me add one statement which should end the discussion:
whether power cord a sounds different than power cord b in a stereo system is a function of a listener's perception. end of story.
i don't think it is necessary to justify one position or another.
oops that's two statements. sorry. |
08-22-11: Zaikesman
I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting? This is an interesting question, and one that had not occurred to me. My answer is of course no, I would not conclude from differences in sound from one listening position to another that a speaker fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics. The reason is because I have some idea of WHY a speakers sound changes from one listening position to another, including things like the speakers radiation pattern, diffraction, room reflections, room modes, etc.. In the case of power cords, however, I have no idea why a power cord would sound different from one listening position to another. The whole idea is a bit of a puzzle to me. I think you mean something like this
If you're sitting in one spot, you might react positively to a cord substitution that subjectively tightens the bass response. If you're sitting in another position, even with the same system, you might instead react more positively to a cord substitution that subjectively mellows the treble, or whatever
Remember, this is always in relation to the use of some other power cord; it's not possible to compare against no cord at all.
What puzzles me about this statement is the attribution of the differences heard TO THE POWER CORD ITSELF. I understand that, in situations where the introduction of a new component results in a change in the sound, there is a natural temptation to conclude that the change heard is attributable to the component introduced. But that is precisely the reasoning I was challenging in my initial post on 8/18, when I wrote
one of the most recurring flaws in the thinking of many audiophiles, namely that
If using component X results in audible difference Y, then audible difference Y is attributable to component X.
On the face of it, this statement appears to be not only true, but self evident. But under quite common circumstances, it is false. Specifically, its false when the audible difference resulting from the use of a component is an EXTRINSIC characteristic of that component. But now we're back where we started! :-o Something tells me that weve come about as far as were going to. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, Zaikesman. This has been an interesting thread, and its piqued my curiosity to experiment further. It isnt a consensus, but its something. Bryon |
Hi Byron, agreed that this can and should go no farther. However, just for the record (and perhaps a better understanding if I failed to make myself clear, which is probable), I never said that a power cord's sound changes with listening position. (As it clearly does with a speaker -- although of course a speaker can only make a sound at all when fed a signal that by necessity involves power cords, and more to my point, a power cord can only be heard through the lens of a speaker in a room at a listening position.) What I did say was that a listener's impression of a power cord's sound can change with their position. The word "impression" to me invokes subjective reaction, evaluation and judgement, both qualitatively and at the basic pro or con level. |
I think much of this discussion focuses on power cord differences that are of low magnitudes. I have certainly experienced instances where I had to struggle to decide which I preferred. Finally, I decided to keep which ever pc I owned.
But I have also had experiences where hearing which pc was better is quite clear. |
I think that if the power supply in your component is designed properly and the stock power cord has sufficient gauge to deliver the current demanded by the component there is no advantage to upgrading. |
cables are like tone controls or flavors of icecream. there are so many from which to select.
sometimes you might prefer one flavor, other times, you might prefer another. |
Liguy, have you ever heard a properly designed power supply?
Mrtennis, is it possible to design a perfectly neutral cable? If so, what theories would lead you to it? |
Liguy, you got me at "I think..."
A little bedtime story: Once upon a time, when I was shopping for my last preamp, the model I narrowed-in on for several reasons, and ultimately got and kept, was the Levinson 380S (now discontinued). But it wasn't until I'd bought and installed it that I learned the IEC power cord receptacle was located on the middle of the underside, facing down and oriented sideways, and the stock cord used a special right-angle plug, different even from most other right-angle plugs, that was oriented sideways and didn't protrude much, so that it could fit in the limited space available underneath and exit out the back instead of the side.
Stymied from using my aftermarket cords, I called the dealer where I bought it to ask what he thought. Then I asked a handful of other ML dealers the same question. They all told me the same thing you're saying: "The power supply in that preamp is so well designed, it doesn't need or benefit from an aftermarket cord. Don't worry about it." (In fact the whole reason ML located the receptacle in that inconvenient spot had to do with keeping potential mains interference away from the audio signal path.)
Being the terminally curious and unbelieving type however, this explanation sounded suspiciously pat to me. Really? You're telling me that the one preamp which won't easily accept an upgrade cord also just happens to be the one preamp that won't benefit from the use of same? Because all my other components do.
I wasn't having it. So I removed the preamp, readjusted my rack shelves so there was double the amount of headroom above it, and reinstalled the thing UPSIDE-DOWN. Of course it looked like hell, what with the feet sticking up in the air like it had keeled over dead, and even more so with a limited-flexibility power cord arching up twice as high out its exposed belly, but at least now I could plug in my aftermarket cords to my heart's content (even if reading the alphanumeric display became a bit of a challenge).
And you can guess the rest: Surprise surprise, but substituting a better power cord made about the same degree of improvement as it usually does with any other component, no matter how well-designed. And mind you, this was with a preamp -- no big current demands, and the stock cord was a decent one of 'sufficient' guage. (Ultimately, after living this way for months trying various cords, I did get some compliant footers to place under the preamp's own feet to help raise it up more, and a right-angle IEC adapter, so now it rides somewhat tall in the saddle but determinedly right-side up.)
One other thing: Last I read anything about it, Halcro, whose proprietary UPFC (Universal Power Factor Corrected) power supply is supposed to be the core technology of their ultra-low distortion amps, and who are probably one of the most engineering-driven companies in the business, had taken the unusual step of supplying an entry-level aftermarket power cord from Shunyata as standard equipment instead of a typical stock cord -- but with the proviso that even this cord, which retailed for around $150 I believe, was still to be considered as just a 'starter' cord, that should be further upgraded for maximum performance. Try telling Halcro this means their signature power supply isn't properly designed. |
Zaikesman....I now award you the prestigious forum post of the year award, congratulations sir. |
Zaikesman -- I suspect that you would have been thorough enough to do this, but just to be sure, did you repeat your power cord comparisons after you obtained the footers, to verify that similar differences resulted with the various power cords you used when the unit was right side up, compared to when it was upside down?
Obviously the preamp was not designed, developed, tested, and voiced with the expectation that it would be used in an upside down position. I can certainly envision that operating a component upside down would have sonic consequences, due to the thermal differences that would result throughout its circuitry, those effects conceivably including increased sensitivity to variations in power-related parameters such as ac voltage.
Regards,
-- Al |
Hi Al, if there was any sonic difference between having the preamp right-side-up and upside-down, I was never aware of it. (As best I remember, I tried listening for such when I first turned it over, but not with the expectation of hearing much if anything different.) I did, however, eventually change the power cord again, from the model I had chosen over the stock cord at the time I reinstalled it right-side-up, to another model I use today throughout my system, and those comparisons were carried out in normal orientation using the adapter. (I should note that some other aspects of my system had also changed during that time span, and still more since.)
As a postscript, I also remember talking again to the ML dealer and mentioning my findings. I thought I was enlightening him, based on what he'd told me, but his reaction was that he wasn't surprised, that of course if you upgrade the power cord on any component you're likely to hear some improvement in a revealing system no matter how good that component's power supply, but getting into that just wasn't practical for his ML preamp customers. (I'd also note that the No.38x series was designed prior to the time when aftermarket power cords came on the scene, and I do believe that ML's later preamp offerings dropped the obscure receptacle placement.)
PPS - Hi Richard, almost as soon as I'd posted I wished I hadn't taken the bait, so thanks! |
I would like to think I have designed a few during my career. |
