Bryan, some great thoughts which show you are open-minded about all of this as well as able to think critically.
Your question in regard to the distinction between systems and components is a good one. My answer is that in general, yes, a specific cord does retain its properties no matter the component it is attached to. It will be influenced differently by the component, but it will still exhibit the same characteristics which result because of its design/construction. Such a conclusion becomes evident when comparing entire sets of cables. As one PC at a time is swapped out the effect of it is heard across the sound of the system. Conducting the incremental testing twice, once with each set of cables, shows clearly what the influence of the particular brand will be.
You will not get the identical result when you move the PC from the amp to the pre or source; there will be fine gradations, or permutations, of a similar sound. However, consistently, when compared individually to a different PC put through the same paces, yes the characteristics of that power cord will remain the same. The alternative PC will also retain its characteristics as it is put on amp, pre, or source.
However, since doing so will alter the sound it becomes impossible for a person who has mixed cords to realize this! That is why I insist that the only way to determine that cables carry their particular character to all components is by enlisting an entire suite of them and comparing to a different suite of cables.
Regarding your specific question: LetÂ’s say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?
The answer is no one knows if it will or will not if a mixed set of cables is being used, i.e. if that particular power cable is swapped with the one on the pre/source. I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. If, however, an entire set of cables is being used and the noted effect of a particular cable is a roll off of bass, and you have noted this on several components such as tube amps/SS amps, sources, preamps, then yes, you might expect more of the same when additional cables are inserted.
The effect of a cable is compounded when additional ones of the same brand/type are inserted. That also has been consistent in my casual testing over the years. If a cable rolls off the spectrum on the ends, it becomes more evident that it is doing so the more pieces are added to the rig. Conversely, if a cable brings additional definition, adding more of them will bring increased definition.
My position is that cables are not "captive" (pun!) sonically to the component which they are servicing, that is they do not entirely take on the character of that component. There is a particular sonic "flavor" which travels with them to whatever component is being serviced.
I have confirmed this using both different brands of cables and different models of the same brand of cables, be they PC, IC or SC, as well as digital coax.
I have concluded the reason audiophiles do not discover such things is that typically they do not conduct thorough enough investigation through comparisons and/or have been using mixed cables, which negates the entire excercise. |
Corazon, you are also contributing well to the discussion, thank you.
Here are your answers based on my experiences with comparing sets of cables:
#1 Absolutely cables' sound ARE influenced by a myriad of system variables. I am not taking the position that such things as input or output impedance, etc. don't effect cables.
At the same time, I am insisting that the cables' own nature/build dictates sonic attributes which it brings to the system, and that these attributes are fixed, not variable.
#2-3 Now, the cable will sound different from system to system. However, the qualities which the cable possesses will also be easily identified, especially when compared to another set which one is familiar with. i.e. a "dull" sounding cable will sound dull with all electronics in comparison to a cable which sounds bright and detailed with all electronics. One does not obtain this knowledge from mixing cables, only from using complete sets in comparison. Obviously, if one is mixing cables and inserting new ones here and there assurance of the sound of the cable is impossible.
For that reason, Mrtennis' suggestion to switch into the mix a new amp is useless. One has no certainty that the amp is not causing the roll off in bass. The only way to gain certainty is by using complete sets of cables from one manufacturer.
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? I find the argument that there is no fixed sound to a cable quite intellectually faulty. A person, it seems, arrives at that conclusion from theory perhaps, but listening comparisons do not support that theory. I believe that actual comparison would quite handily convince someone that cables do present their own properties which are integral to them.
#4 I am also leading to the conclusion that a set of cables with preferred properties sonically will yield a predictable result, a desired result. One cable will bring a certain degree of those sonic properties, but a set will amplify them. When one finds a favored cable, that set of cables can be used to transfer those properties onto ANY system. This is precisely what cable manufacturers are claiming their cables can do. Yet it seems so many audiophiles simply ignore that claim and mix the cables, thereby destroying/mitigating any possibility of discovering the particular qualities the manufacturer intended!
Corazon, you say in #5. "I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?" Yup. Precisely. But remember, my position is that blind tests are not even needed! The difference is SO apparent that if one said they needed a blind test I would consider their hearing suspect.
#6 Yes, why chase marginal "improvements"?
Hopefully my ruminations will get some people to reconsider their position on cabling and on how to approach cables as a component. Remember, I was vociferously assured that I was right when I held the opinion that 1. Cables were not that big a deal, and 2. One did not have to work with matched sets. I was wrong on both counts, and cables handled properly have been a crucial element of creating superior sounding systems.
Finally, Corazon, I quote your thought, "Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective." That can change. Just start culling cables and comparing; you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to reinforce that Al and Bryon's points are cogent, their logic compelling. However, compelling logic does not determine the outcome of listening tests. Remember that even though I do not have the engineering background to argue from theory, my position is defensible by the fact that there are actual/physical changes between the cables/sets being compared. The decision one must make is whether or not such differences in cables can yield audibly discernible differences. On the one hand are people who have not tested it and said, "No, it cannot." On the other hand I stand - and I have tested it, and of course say, "Yes, it does!"
Now, if the others wish to conduct the simple listening tests/comparisons between sets and then return and state that their informal tests supported the theory that cable geometry, dielectric, conductor material, total gauge, etc. has no bearing on the sound of a cable when transferred between components, I would be happy to hear about it.
But to simply say, "I don't think it will have an influence," when physical differences exist between cables, and I have tested and found there to be sonic differences; well, I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by such logic. :)
I am saying the others are mistaken, but politely so! ;)
Survey: How many of you have conducted comparisons between a few sets of cables? What was your conclusion? I think it would be very telling if these people chimed in. My guess is that very few have done so, perhaps even very few dealers, distributors or manufacturers. This is likely why there are often a couple of zealous persons arguing my perspective while so many take the opposite viewpoint. I believe the vast majority of audiophiles have never dealt with complete sets of cables in comparison. It's costly (at least temporarily) and time consuming to do so. It's so much easier to conclude, "It's not that big of a deal..." But it IS.
How big of a deal is it? I never had a system yielding complete satisfaction when listening to it until I got serious about working with sets of cables. I would encourage audiophiles who consider themselves "extreme" or serious enthusiasts to pursue the comparison of sets of cables. I have found it to be a terrifically rewarding activity.
I discuss some similar principles in my Audiophile Laws which are published on Dagogo.com. They can be found in the "Columns" section of the website. Some may seem controversial or counter-intuitive, however they are all based on practical considerations and actual informal testing, not just theory. In other words, they work. :) |
Zaikesman and Richard, you are correct.
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used. Testing over one dozen sets of cables on multiple components/speakers has cemented this for me.
The nature (geometry, gauge, conductor material, dielectric, etc.) of the cable (which travels with the cable, obviously) trumps the extrinsic interactions between it and components/speakers. A cable which, in comparision to a different set, sounds dull, will sound dull on any rig. A cable, which in comparison to another set sounds bass heavy, will sound bass heavy on any rig. etc. I have absolutely not found any cable which is a chamelion, i.e. changing it's sonic nature such that sounds dramatically different on a variety of gear, such as highly detailed with one system while sounding dull with another system.
You two guys have found one of the secrets of building a superior system. Most audiophiles are too unwilling to spend the money or too unwilling to spend the time to discover it. :)
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names, and I used to be too chintzy to conduct the tests myself. I'm very glad I got over it.
I have no problem with a person who simply has no interest or the means to pursue a rig to the point of chasing down cabling. I do have a problem with someone who wants to tell others what's possible when they haven't lifted a finger to test it. I like the sentiment: While some are saying, "It can't be done," others are out doing it.
By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences.
This fits perfectly with my Law of Efficacy, which states that a change must be heard immediately (typically within seconds, not mintues, hours or longer), and be deemed easy enough to describe without a struggle. He admitted that he had not been so much of a cable enthusiast but that the difference was distinct. In other words, he was learning that power cords are more important than he thought.
This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable canges can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I didn't even need to change the entire set for them to reach that conclusion, just a set of ICs or two power cords! A demo in moments convinced him more than hours of talking would.
I've stopped being surprised at how surprised manufacturers and distributors are at such demonstrations. I realize most of them have never conducted such tests. If even the industry people aren't conducting these tests, should I expect the average audiophile to? Probably not.
I simply won't argue indefinitely with someone who is capable of conducting simple tests and refuses. Then, why do I occasionally post my comments? Because there are some lurkers who will actually act on my advice and find out I'm right. They will be the big winners in terms of listening experience. :)
There, I've made my contribution toward 90, if anyone's counting. ;) |
Bryon, as usual, quite logical and concise discussion. I made the statement regarding chintzy people and those without desire to work at it due to the sheer abundance of times these issues arise, not to infer that you or Al are pegged as one or the other. I do not mean to be offensive in any way. :)
I have to laugh; last night I watched 'Shark Tank' and in one segment a belt buckle manufacturer was called a pig (greedy) by one shark and another suggested he was lying about his sales. So, one shark concludes of the man, "So, he's a liar and a pig!" The man stood there stunned; it was them labeling him then reinforcing the label! So, Bryan, if you feel I've labeled you, my apologies. As you demonstrate, you're not chintzy with cables. :)
Ironically, I used to pride myself on my chintziness as an audiophile. I would go down to the local high end store where I had the nickname "The Bottom Feeder" (as in aquarium fish) because I sought super-economical cast offs from others. I wouldn't have dreamed of spending serious money for cables. It was only comparisons, and later, comparisons of entire sets, which utterly changed by perspective. Talk did nothing to sway me; only experience mattered. You must admit, there are a lot of audiophiles like that - and no, I'm not insinuating you are one! I find it ironic that there are other audiophiles for which talk/discussion is the final arbiter of the 'truth' of cables, even though simple comparison is quite easy. :)
If you are seeking controlled experiements I'll not be offering them for you. My position is that the difference sonically between cables in order to be efficacious must be so great that a controlled experiment is not necessary. If I cannot (or others in the room with me) can't hear the distinction, if we have to strain to hear a difference, or can't hear a difference immediatetly then the cable, preamp, etc. fails instantly. Above all, in this matter the result has to be practical; I am not into chasing marginal improvements in a rig. Similarly, to ascertain if a cable is 'carrying' its sonic properties the effect has to be so evident, so obvious that one would easily conclude the cable to be influencing the rig with it's sonic properties.
Perhaps the analogy of a sunset would help here. While not measuring but simply observing the sunset one can say with certainty that the sky five minutes after the last observation has changed. Does the person have "data" for that obseveration? No. Are they wrong? No. Clearly, observational experience is all that is necessary to determine a valid argument and conclusion. Now if I told you about it would you demand data from me to believe it? Why do we accept observations in one setting but not in another? (No need to answer; it's a hypothetical question pointing out that for the individual observation can be plenty adequate to be convincing of 'reality').
What if one were to look at the sky five seconds later? Or perhaps one minute later? Would the sky look different? Much more unlikely. I would equate looking at the sky five seconds later to hearing a set of cables which are similar in design/sound. In that case the proposed upgrade would be a fail in terms of the Law of Efficacy. The change has to be dramatic, like looking at the sky five minutes later, every bit as powerful/dramatic as a component change. One wire on its own typically can't do that, but a set can.
I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result. I do not wish to share that information at this time. I've spent a lot of time on cables and teasing out their practical application in systems!
This is what I am doing, taking listening "measurements" with different conditions. My observations have held without exception; EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.
I am fairly adamant that this friendly debate cannot be settled apart from testing sets of cables. The entire premise that a cable carries intrinsic sound properties is impossible to conclude based upon mixing them. If you stick a cable in one mix and move it to another mix what have you done? Nothing with certainty! What you have done is reinforce the false notion that cables have no consistent sound! Hundreds of audiophiles do this and reach the wrong conclusion!
Only by hearing sets and hearing them transferred to different equipment as compared to another set will reveal clearly that a cable's intrinsic properties travel with it. |
Al, If I have you thinking that's a good thing; it means there's some meat on my comments. :)
When I use the terms 'sets' or 'suites" of cables I mean the whole group - PC/IC/SC/ and digital or phono, whichever applicable. If one uses only a power cord or two or one set of interconnects there is a possibility that the difference is so small it will be difficult to perceive. Persons with hearing loss will find these kinds of comparisons unsatisfying and be tempted to proclaim that there is nothing to the cable mania. This is especially so if the cables are built similarly. In such instances it may take the entire set and still the two brands might sound similar. I found in my comparisons that Acoustic Zen and Harmonic Technology (not the fiber optic cables, but the ones with metal conductors) sounded very close to each other. If one happened to compare them without being aware of their very similar construction/design they would be tempted to conclude erroneously that all cables sound the same.
However, when two rather differently designed and constructed sets are compared (i.e. Magnan Cables and Wireworld) the difference is usually easily heard. And when an entire set is swapped out there is a sea change of sound. If I were to swap out only the set of power cords the effect would be consistent but moderated. As I have said before, often the change of an entire set is so pronounced as to be similar to switching a box component, either source, pre, or amp.
My observations have been consistent when comparing sets of power cables only, or sets of Interconnects only. Logically they would have to, or else my assertion would not have merit. The sum of the effect of the set is nothing other than each cable exerting its influence upon the signal.
I am sure that what I am stating is counter-intuitive. However, it can be demonstrated quite persuasively in a rater simple fashion; by merely swapping sets of cables!
(oh, wow, my wife just brought me a plate with a cut fresh nectarine! YUMMY!)
I would suggest that your objections due to the differing AC line conditions, noise etc. are fairly inconsequential to the effect of the cables. I have had consistent results when I tested different cables at others' homes/systems. I also have heard consistent effects from cables when using all manner of power filtration/regeneration devices. Essentially power treatment or lack of it does not mask a cables' unique sonic properties.
Al, all that really remains is for you to actually test my theory. By the way, you used an illustration of a set of cables with low inductance providing greater high frequency extension depening on the speakers' impedance.
My observations are that such a cable will provide extended high frequencies no matter what speaker you use. The effect may be more noticeable/intense with a speaker with higher impedance, but certainly does not disappear when using a speaker of lower impedance.
It's quite simple; a cable brand (PC/IC/SC) which has rolled off the high end will do so with any speaker. One which extends the high end will do so with any speaker. And so on. Why? Because of the construction/design of the cables. |
The seating position discussion has muddied the waters unnecessarily. I believe the intent was to discuss the fact that other variables are at work, as well as the variable of the sound of the cables. I would hope we all agree that seating postion has no absolute effect upon the performance of the cords. Perceptually, however, the system may sound quite different when seating position is changed, and one might find themselves more agreeable to the system. However, likely not.
It has been my experience that seating position does not have the "power" as a change to radically alter one's perception of what the cords are doing. Yes, I have changed seating positions while working with cords, and no, it has not had a significant effect on my conclusions about how any particular cords sound. While it does alter the experience it does not override the cables' performance when compared. I have selected the same cables as my preference regardless of the seating position (within reason, of course).
Recently, after having the same seating position for five years elected to move my chair 5" closer to the speakers. The sacrifice is in the sharpness of the center image, but in exchange I have more bass presence and a slightly more 3-D soundstage. Doing so has had no impact upon my decisions regarding cables.
I haven not tested the following thought, but it is quite possible that I would prefer a system where I was not in my favorite seating position (i.e. 5" off, like my previous listening position) yet had superior cords versus one where the seating position was "improved" and had poorer cords in use. Going off of my past experiences I would prefer the system with the better cabling.
People who think room treatments and seating position get you 90% of the way "there" (As though cheaper gear set up well will get you almost SOTA sound; it will not) will likely choke on that statement. However, anyone who's conducted tests of sets of cables as I have will likely agree.
Similarly, at times I change the inside angle of my panel speakers; once again this has not changed my conclusions regarding any particular cables.
Based on continued testing I would not consider listening position to be a dominant factor in cable selection. |
Liguy, I would like to know which audiophile components you have supplied designs for power supplies. I am assuming, of course, that you refer to designing power supplies for audiophile components. If not, then your entire discussion of the non-necessity of aftermarket cords or their ability to change the sound is invalid.
Now, if you are getting technical on us, and have run tests with various power supplies in said component and not been able to hear a difference, then you may have a point. I have not ripped out and replaced power supplies in components to judge whether solely a PS is effected by the various power cords. However, in absolutely EVERY component I have ever used, with power supplies which the manufacturers I'm sure feel are optimized to the components, the components have been altered sonically via power cords. Besides, it's not very easy to listen to a power supply sans the rest of the electronics; so in the narrow sense your argument is a moot point.
I have, however, conducted tests of actual audiophile power supplies (i.e. filters, power factor correction units, etc.) and found that EVERY single one of them is also influenced by power cords. So, I have serious reservations about your claim that a properly designed PS is not able to be influenced sonically by a variety of power cords.
It's not a matter of operation vs. inoperation, but more like mixed drinks. If I want a rum and coke, do I count the atoms to make sure the mix is ok? There are many "flavors" of Rum and coke. Simliarly, there are "flavors" of power cords, all of which are slightly different in their electrical properties. Sorry, your measurements will not show this. :( You'll just have to trust us on that. I know that can be difficult for a theoretical kind of guy. ;)
Unless, of course, you wish to conduct some simple, not too expensive informal testing, which I think would show you, in say about two to ten seconds, that I'm right. :) |
Liguy, ok, very nice additional explanation; thank you!
So, your position is that any component which can be influenced sonically via power cords has a compromised power supply. Correct?
Which components/companies would you say have "done their homework" and have correct power supplies? You seem to be a fan of Pass amplifiers. Do you feel Pass has what you would consider a proper/good power supply? What other companies would you say have good power supplies? |
Rwwear, skepticism is allowed.
Does a conductor's judgment become convoluted by hearing dozens of symphonies?
Does a circuit designer's judgment become convoluted by designing dozens of circuits?
Your argument that the more experience I have makes me less of a good judge of a phenomenon is weak.
I used to be every bit as skeptical, until I got over it (i.e. put my pride aside and actually compared).
BTW, I don't disagree that humans are horrible at double blind listening tests. However, I also insist that humans have phenomenal capacity to hear distinctions in sound/music. The rub is that I believe we have poor acoustic memory, which makes us poor at the testing. So, both are true; there are differences in sound which are easily heard, but we are poor at matching/identifying precisely sound snippets under tightly controlled conditions.
Based on studies about recall and the human mind (i.e. how poor people are at describing/recalling details to police what they saw as an eyewitness) I think I have pretty good ground to stand on for my position. :) |
Liguy, with respect, the Home Depot cords are horrid. I happen to have made some for myself years ago when I was first experimenting with comparisons of power cords. I thought I was genius to get "top quality" sound on the cheap. But when I compared the Home Depot Home made to even approx. $100 power cords by the likes of Audioquest or Wireworld the H.D. cord sucked - that is sucked the life right out of the music. I couldn't stand to use them and got rid of them quickly. It was a waste of time and money, except for the fact that it reinforced the point that the cable manufacturers know what they're doing and the typical DIY guy does not.
Since I cannot prove otherwise, it may be that on your rig alone, given you have "hyper-power supplies" you designed, there may not be a difference in sound between power cords. OTOH, you suggest that some manufacturers of high end audio gear are getting it right. What if those amps also exhibited sonic differences with various power cords? Then where would you go in your argument?
I will say this, having worked with some of the finest audio equipment available, some with dedicated, optimized power supplies such as with the VAC Signature Preamplifier MkII (reviewed for Dagogo.com), not a one, not a single component I have ever come across has been impervious to power cord idiosyncrasies. I simply do not accept that when the dielectric, total gauge, conductor material etc. is changed on a cable the net result is nil sonically. I have used too many cables and too many components to concede that.
Liguy, you're a nice asset to this discussion and our little group here. I wish you could make a visit and we could test out some of our theories. I would find it fascinating to hear your rig and the power supplies you have made.
Dave (Corazon), the answer to your question is that manufacturers do not want to paint themselves into a corner with cables. If they don't believe in aftermarket power cords they're not going to promote them. If they do find them useful, they're not going to get in bed with one cord manufacturer or else they cut their fan base. Further, they may know that a particular cord renders a specific sound with their gear and it may not appeal to all listeners with all systems. Better to let the masses figure it out on their own. |
Another thought strikes me; is it possible, Liguy, that you have been comparing/using power cords which are somewhat similar in characteristics? i.e. Aftermarket 14 total gauge with stranded conductors, vs. your 12 total Ga. with stranded conductors?
The reason I ask is that if the power cords you have been comparing have similar characteristics, then it is very likely that you would have a difficult time hearing differences between them. I can see a situation in which you replaced a stock power cord with a Home Depot DIY and found little difference. However, I would submit that this is not the best test of power cords, and that there are many more options available. i.e. A PC with 9 or 10 tot. Ga., or one with silver OFC conductors, etc. You would perhaps find it interesting to try a Wireworld lower end PC with silver coated prongs on the plug.
Maybe you have compared a wide variety of PCs but if not, then this is perhaps a legitimate reason why you are not hearing differences! I have conducted comparisons between PCs which sounded very similar and they were in fact similar in construction/design. That may be part of the answer to our disagreement. :) |
Liguy, well, count me as one of the most interested in your findings! :) I always distinguish between noticeable differences and efficacious differences. It's one thing for an effect to be noticeable, but another to be efficacious, that is "worth it" in terms of meritorious for an upgrade. So, when you do your comparisons, for the argument underway I'm interested in noticeable differences, not whether you feel it's "worth it", which adds another layer of subjectivity.
I'm beginning to think I've hit upon the culprit in the great "Power Supply Mystery," as you seem to have heard various power cords make a difference in other systems. It's not a hearing acuity issue. Also, you have not heard a difference in your rig, but that would stand to reason if the power cords (perhaps only the stock cord and your Home Depot cord were used?) employed by you were largely the same.
Yes, I will be quite interested to hear about this. I love discussions like this, where there is mental "jousting" but without rancor and with an open mind, as you demonstrate.
Zaikesman, your thought allows me to address what might be considered name dropping. It was not my intent; I was referencing the cables I used in comparison. I could have done the same with Magnan Cables, Jenna Labs, Clarity Cables, or any number of cables I've used/reviewed (WARNING! Major Name Dropping! ;0 ) I have never done a formal review of Audioquest cables, but I have mentioned them several times in trials/comparisons I've held with them over the years because they happened to be used in significant trials/breakthroughs in my learning process.
I've conducted dozens upon dozens of listening comparisons, and when one example seems suitable for my argument I select it. I believe I could reference illustrations regarding different aspects of cable use from any of the brands I've used; i.e. conductor material, geometry, total gauge, dielectric, terminations, etc. I'm not trying to make any definitive statement about the merits of brands in this thread, merely illustrating my logic. Frankly, I'm trying not to push my preference in that regard. I don't know that it's possible to avoid the appearance of name dropping when using real examples, but the fact that I'm not making statements about the performance in relation to other cables should help in that regard. I've written enough about them that people should get the feel for my assessment of cables I've used. |
Rwwear, my point wasn't the ofc (oxygen free copper) as the cable being silver coated copper. A silver conductor sounds quite a bit different than copper. |
Funny? Hardly. Back to the Wireworld; I did direct comparison between two models of interconnects and speaker cables with only the conductor (copper vs. silver over copper) different. The change in sound was no laughing matter.
But remember, one has to have a good system, a good room and good hearing or else the distinction will be moderated. |
Rwwear, I'll take that title "fanatic" as a complement. :)
If using several sets of cables in comparison is fanatical, then it applies. If facilitating dozens upon dozens of real world comparisons on the effects of cables (including comparison of silver vs. copper conductors) is fanatical, then it applies. :)
|
Rwwear, I'll pick up cordially on your comment, "My assertion was for those unfortunately hard of understanding is that you can not compare dozens of cables and remember what the first one sounded like. If you can, you're an amazing person."
Well, thank you, I guess I'm an amazing person, because I do recall what the different cords did in various systems. If you would compare sets of cables like I do you would likely hear the "character" or specific sound of the cables, which in reality is fairly easy to categorize, similar to taking a drink of a new beverage. I do slot cables into mental categories based on their use in multiple systems. I do believe that if I were to return to those cables again I would hear the same effect from using them, just like returning to the beverage once tasted.
Now, is that amazing? I don't think so. :)
Anyway, to return to the topic of the thread, I do not need to remember the sound of dozens of types of cables to prove my point. I need only argue that there is a sonic difference between two types/sets of cables. There is no point in my arguing that I can recall various cables, but there is a good point in my arguing that any given set of two cables likely will sound different from each other. If you wish to apply this argument to power cords specifically, feel free, as I believe it pertains.
The pertinent question now is, Rwwear, have you actually conducted comparisons between sets of cables? Merely listening to "everything out there" is not the same. And frankly, I do not care how many years you have been in the audio business; this is not a matter of time in the game, but rather specific experience which you may not have. Have you run listening tests between two or three brands of power cords? Have you tried two different sets of cables (power/IC/SC)?
If you have and didn't hear the difference, I respect that. Then simply say so. But if you haven't, then you owe it to yourself to try.
Mapman, yours is an interesting argument technically to say that IC/SC is in the signal path but that power cords are not. I take a very pragmatic approach to audio; if it influences the sound, it's considered efficacious. I think we would agree that if power cords do influence the sound it would be due to being far more directly involved electronically than various tweaks which have at best only a physical contact to the component and at worst no contact nor demonstrable influence upon the sound waves.
So, in practical parlance it matters little to me if the power cord is "in signal" or "out signal" - I find they alter the system performance powerfully (pun!). They influence the electronics which influence the signal. |
Mrtennis, given your perspective in this matter perhaps your reviews should come with a disclaimer:
"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I used it in a system, and I have no clue what it might sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly."
Perhaps you could use all your philosophy to develop a new method of reviewing, one in which only the component sans the rest of the system could be used. Then you would be able to say:
"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I didn't use it in a system, and I have no clue what it will sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly." :) |
Rwwear, ok, I respect your response, thank you.
When discussing with Liguy it appeared that he had tried only similar cables and was now interested in trying ones with dissimilar build/design. Is that perhaps also the case for you?
I'm sure the Krell amps have been very high performers. I currently am using (for review) some top level amps and they show a clear change in sound with various power cords. So, I'm not inclined to believe that the power supply quality diminishes the influence of power cords.
I would imagine that if a person worked in the industry and saw a case of overcharging or misrepresenting the quality/technology of the cabling they would be quite digusted and consider it hokum. But shenanigans by a company in the industry would not prove that cabling with different designs, conductors, etc. cannot sound different. Again, the fact that there is little "solid ground" on which an audiophile can stand in determining the quality/validity of cables in general (i.e. regarding price to performance ratio) does not negate the sonic effect of various designs.
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Tbg, Mrtennis will almost invariably take an audiophile reductionist/agnostic viewpoint, i.e. that one can know little to nothing about sound, setting up systems, etc. absolutely.
While this may be true philosophically, I find it obfuscates learning about putting together high end systems. I find it of little value in actually assembling better sounding rigs.
My understanding is that Mrtennis objected to my statement that I can tell the sonic characteristics of sets of cables. I'll stand by my claim that one can indeed utilize cables to achieve a certain result in systems when they know the character of the cables' sound.
So, what do you think, Tbg; what if you used a set of cables in five different systems and the results were consistent every time (but obviously not identical as each system is discreet) in regards to their sound as compared to different cables - would you accept that those cables had a particular sound quality? Or would you take the position of Mrtennis that you can't know what a component sounds like?
I'm not into philosophical ramblings, especially when they're self-evident like Mrtennis's last post. I'm into practical methods of building better audio systems. But everyone's got their own philosophy and methodology. :) |
Mrtennis, my sincere apologies if I offended you before.
I was able to find and thought of lifting quotes from this site where you describe the sound characteristics of particular components, something you suggest cannot be done. But, frankly, it would not be done in kindness, and perhaps you would take umbrage.
I find little value in continuing the argument. It's time to refocus on writing.
Blessings to you. :) |
(poking my nose back in for a moment...)
Paperw8, you do harm to your argument with such illustrations that stretch credibility. I sense you are quite passionate about your position, but you hurt yourself when you suggest...
-That a person be wary of an individual who describes a phenomenon but can't explain it. Doesn't all observation lead to exploration, discovery? Shall we be suspect of all who hear a phenomenon regularly? Perhaps we should be suspect of those who don't?
-Re: Personal Biases - The existence of bias is not a reason for dismissal of a phenomenon. It may influence one's perception, but certainly is not definitive proof against it.
I have had the pleasure of having several audiophiles, some industry professionals, in my room who started with a negative bias against cables, especially power cables. It has been pure joy to demonstrate simply the efficacy of switching power cords. To a man (and one man's wife as well!) they have been impressed, i.e. they have heard the difference - and heard it immediately. You assume a positive bias, but simple comparisons in a good audio system has been able to overcome negative bias in people.
I enjoy their shocked expressions and struggle to find explanations. :)
-You mention Pseudo-science and "...stuff which seems to operate by magic." Surely you are aware of the many persons in the cable industry who have engineering/electronics education? Surely you know about research white papers, discussions on websites of work with dielectric, conductor size/geometry and gauge? I'm not speaking of networked cables here as they are a special case, but of straight wire cable manufacturers. It is misinformed of you to state that there is no attempt at science/research behind cable manufacturing. Now, you may wish to disdain it, that's your choice. But to pretend it doesn't exist is inaccurate. If you wish to read some reviews with an eye toward the design element of cables I suggest you find my cable reviews on Dagogo.com.
Finally, you badly overreach with your Nessy, Alien, Yeti illustration. It actually harms your argument. Whereas one can trek the world and never see hide nor hair of these others, cables are a click away for anyone to solve the Great Cable Mystery! :)
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Chad, you do have the right perspective; give it a shot to see if it's meritorious. Unlike some extreme sports there's very little permanent scarring. ;)
But I would urge you to work with at least 2 or three cables of one manufacturer (i.e. 2 or 3 power cords, or 2 sets of interconnects, etc). Trying one cord at a time is less evidential; like working with a canal system and only altering 1/5 of it. Some people have tried one cord and not heard much difference, then wrongly concluded that "cables don't matter". If you take a minimalist approach to it you shouldn't expect maximum results. A network of cables is influenced proportionately to how much you change the network, and similarly its influence upon the system.
Liguy from this discussion is reconsidering power cables since it appears he tried extremely similar cords. I admire his openness to take another look/test.
It will be enjoyable to read about your experience. |
So, whatever became of Liguy's experiments with different power cords? The last I heard of him he was going to borrow some with different geometries, total gauge - in other words quite different than he had been using - and test them out to see what he might hear.
Perhaps I skimmed this thread too quickly, but I didn't see any discussion from him about it.
Well? |
YOO-HOO! Liguy, how long of a business trip have you taken? It's been about three months now. Have you tried different power cords yet as we discussed here? Did all the guys in the audio club die of old age? What's happening? :) |
Will 2012 end without Liguy ever getting his power cord test conducted (pun!)?
Here is what Liguy posted in 2001 in regards to biwiring:
"After reading these forums for awhile I can finally say that I am a skeptic no longer with respect to biwiring. I recently purchased a demo pair of Martin Logans from a local dealer and found that I did not have enough money to purchase a decent set of speaker cables. As I was getting ready to take the speakers home the dealer stopped me and offered to loan me a set of cables until I had enough cash (Great Dealer!!!) to purchase some cables. Well, when I got home I discovered that the Logans were easily biwirable and that the cables he lent me were biwire cables. When I auditioned the Logans the dealer must have connected the jumpers when I told him I was not interested in biwiring a set of speakers. I figured what the hell, lets give it a try. I connected everything up, popped in a CD and my mouth fell to the floor. Unbelievable. So from one ex-skeptic to anyone who has a doubt. Biwiring works, I am an EE and frankly do not care why anymore."
Is it perhaps possible that the doubt associated with power cords could be as misplaced as the doubt associated with biwiring? :)
But how are we supposed to conclude discussions when people simply disappear? :( |
Foster 9, I am well aware this is a power cord thread; I posted Liguy's comments to show the inconsistency of his acceptance of biwiring when he was initially skeptical to his resistance against power cords, though he has done nothing (seemingly) to conduct as simple a comparison.
I waited a period of time before posting my above message regarding his disappearance. It seems now that the discussion may never get finished. |
Al, that's interesting; I assumed Liguy did the comparison between single and biwiring at home as he would have had them on hand, but perhaps not. It would not be a valid comparison to hear them at a dealership and at home and try to draw a conclusion. Good catch. It does seem, however, that he ended up comparing single/biwire in his own rig and his conclusion did not change, which is no surprise to me having obtained similar results universally.
You are right, though, that if people think they can compare across systems at different locations they are out to lunch and need to learn some basics about control for variables. :)
I think you and Tpreaves need to do the power cord comparison! :) |
