Do NOT Blow Your Entire Budget on Two Channel Audio
Yes, two channel audio is here, and is not going away. However, object based audio is delightful, widely available on Tidal and Apple Music, and should be in the listening room of every music lover on the planet, not just "audiophiles. If you plan to be a music fan a year from now start building your object based audio system today. You will need:
1) A receiver/processor capable of Dolby Atmos.
2) A subscription to Tidal or Apple music.
3) A Firestick, ATV, or Nvidia Shield.
4) A minimum of 7 timber matched speakers and a subwoofer.
Once you experienced stereo would you ever go back to only mono? No, you would build a system capable of either mono or stereo. Now that object based audio has arrived do the same thing. Build a system capable of mono, stereo, AND object based audio. When Elton John heard Rocket Man in an object based format for the first time why did he demand to convert his entire catalog to Atmos? If you don’t know, then you need to go listen to Rocket Man in a good Atmos setup ASAP.
So, take your budget, DIVERSIFY, and get a good Atmos capable receiver or processor. Object based audio is NOT last decades surround sound or home theater. It is for MUSIC first, if you need a recommendation on how to allocate your budget feel free to post a question. Most importantly, you don’t NEED two systems, one for music and one for movies. A good object based audio system can play two channel music just fine. A two channel system on the other hand can’t play object based audio without a proper processor or receiver.
I guess the question is, do they sound compressed or worse than the equivalent two channel recordings. 99% of the atmos recordings I listen to sound more "real", in my room, with my setup. The 1% that don’t sound more real are generally from mixes that didn’t sound all too great in two channel either.
The engineers today are moving past either/or and are mixing both simultaneously, see at least the first 5 minutes of this breakdown:
The question itself speaks to how one would spend their budget
I saw the pics of your systems, nice, Modwright gear, tubes, nice stuff. You would likely want to start with a processor capable of atmos, not a receiver. You likely want to use the amps you already have, do you want specifics?
I know what your thread is about. The question remains, if some - Amazon, Apple per ragusw - or all (don't know) Atmos recordings are compressed why is this a better listening experience than 2 channel uncompressed music ? The question itself speaks to how one would spend their budget
I can’t speak to worst vs best. When you stream music on Tidal you have choices ranging from hifi/44 khz (redbook), masters (MQA), Sony 360 (immersive) and Atmos (immersive). You can try every type of file and pick what you like. This thread is about budgeting your system so you can play ALL of them since you are paying for all of them regardless. Some people prefer the Beach Boys Pet Sounds in mono, that’s OK too.
"Now understand that Dolby Atmos played via Amazon Music or Apple Music is compressed on all channels."
Help me understand how listening via an Atmos system to the worst version of a recording is a better experience that listening to better recorded versions on 2 channel? Thanks
@fittebd
Ouch you have a square room, what if you moved everything 45 degrees ? Weird I know but if your room is to small there is nothing that will work.
@fittebd
Imaging the sound as different size ping pong balls based on frequency, the balls hit you in the head directly but the more important part is how they hit you from the first reflection, the second and the pressure of the opposite walls. Imaging the back wall a trampoline that can really bounce the balls back to you without loosing much power at all. You want to hear your room you don't want your room to be an anechoic chamber in which you will go crazy (nearly) in 1 hour. Your room is as important as your speakers they are both boxes that sound plays in. Subs in corners are 16 times more efficient, I put my 3rd sub for LFE in the corner and love it, the other 2 subs support my speakers for it's really important that they are time aligned perfectly (as much as possible).
@donavabdearYou may be right. I am looking at changing the direct side walls to combo devices like I have in the corners. Moving the curved absorbing to back rear wall. I have a false wall where the rears are hung at approx 20ft. Rear wall is at 24’. I also have diffusers for front wall planned for winter. Moving everything is a big project so wait for cold days.
treatments are a combo of Vicoustics and UA Acoustics
i too find the pre a bit loud too. Looking at AR LS28 SE. cannot find a silver used one. But I will.
strange when I want to upgrade but can’t, I guess that’s a good problem.
For the longest time I wanted a set of "high end" book shelf speakers for my office. Once I got my JBL’s it didn’t matter if something was "better" was out there, I just loved how they present the music, even though they were not JBL flagship monitors, so I kept them. Like you said, its a good problem.
I get what you mean about overdoing absorption, it just sucks the life out of the room. Anthony Grimani recommends interleafing absorption with diffusion, it was an improvement in my room and his "recipe" is posted in the profile.
Just a note of caution, I'm seeing a lot of room absorption all over the place, having a room that is to dry is much worse than a room that is a little to wet, error on the side of wet. I just bought some absorption and I'm right to the point where I don't like my room as much, even sitting int he room with no music isn't as happy. There are so many psychoacoustic interplays in acoustics.
@kota1
Love love love my BHK 300 mono blocks 100%. My BHK preamp is about to become a Luxman when their new preamp comes out in September, the preamp sounds great but it's simply to noisy, I have a Lyngdorf preamp that is dead quiet but it doesn't sound like a tube, simple as that.
My PS Audio DAC MK 2 is great, My PS Audio Transport is great. I'm having a hard time finding equipment that sounds better, even replacing my speakers with next level speakers aren't really sounding better in a significant way, I think my Paradigm 9Hs and the JL 113 v2 subs work very well together, strange when I want to upgrade but can't, I guess that's a good problem.
When it comes to great audio reproduction, it's not a matter of age. For punks to use ageism as their rational for elevating what amounts to a glorified PA system is laughable.
Why is it when someone gets the better of someone else, they attribute it to anger when they are the ones flying off the handle, handing out insults to well reasoned arguments? Lots of projection going on here, especially with the use of "audio karens".
Let no one forget who was banned for most of a day for his virulent attacks on members for not seeing things his way. That is what an "audio karen" is.
Wow!!! Stunning, love the room treatments, functional AND aesthetically pleasing. The seating looks great and those BHK amps must sound great, another member here had some maintenance issues.
@donavabdear, how are your BHK's doing? You need to check out @fittebdroom, seems like you guys have a similar taste.
I've had a decent Atmos-capable 9.2.2 Onkyo HT receiver for a few years and I still run 5.1
I have a smaller "media room" or family room as it used to be called (14' x 28'). I have no idea where I would place additional speakers and I'm more than happy with what I have.
FWIW - I don't have any plans to "upgrade" my modest dedicated 2-channel setup, either.
Coherence. I like my speakers to all sound pretty much the same.
Great point, my Paradigm active speakers are heavy and I was able to mount the front height channels on tall stands and the rear height channels on some heavy duty wall mounts. But the VOG channel above the MLP was a problem. I called Paradigm and cutting holes in my ceiling was a non starter. They recommended the Cinema 100's as they were small and used the same type of tweeters as my other speakers. You can see the end result in the pics of my system.
Coherence. I like my speakers to all sound pretty much the same. That’s not hard with 7.1, but it sure is with atmos. Ever seen a squadron of Quad ESL's hanging 2’ from the ceiling?
It’s great to read about contributors "immersing" themselves in new experiences and willing to share those results with a high degree of enthusiasm. However, putting personal stamp of approval on a concept is a bit different than proclaiming that functioning adults should abandon their fundamental beliefs in system architecture and budgetary considerations and follow THEIR lead.
Coming from one who spent decades designing and installing 2-channel and multi-channel systems:
As I mentioned in a previous topic/thread, "the suspsension of disbelief" is the goal of a sound reproduction experience in the home. That is to say, for a moment in time we cease to believe that we’re listening to a fascimile of a live event, artificially created in our space. But, rather, in the room WITH the performers/performance. Many have found 2 channels (done right) provides our ears (and, brains) with enough information to render an accurate enough image to become believable as a "live" performance. It’s been happening for quite a long time.
Back in the day when we were putting together some pretty decent HT systems, a common objection we heard was: "My room isn’t big enough for surround sound." So, I was motivated to design and install a 5.1 system in a 30" x 30" replica of a British phone booth. (B&W mini monitors mounted in a custom ceiling with JL Audio thin profile subs in the floor. Outboard electronics. Control via the antique-looking pay phone). Doing the math, it was the functional equiviant of a 150" image in an "average" living room, delivering 4,000 watts of power. It was an effective demo for the "small room" customers. Our store was in a college market and the highlight was when two coeds decided to see if they could both fit in the phone booth together. It was summer, and it was hot, and they were dressed "appropriately" for the weather conditions. I wish I would have videoed their attempts to egress the space. I could have gotten a sponsor and made a small contribution to my retirement account.
But, here’s where I take the side of 2-channel for the ultimate reproduction of music. Assuming 7-channels vs 2, that’s 3.5 times the number of speakers and amplifier channels. Using the "2x rule" as an example, when 2x the investment is placed in a piece of audio gear, "stuff" happens. Price considerations are relaxed and better/robust parts are used on the inside (and, chassis/cabinet integrity -- on the outside as well). The results can range from "very significant" to "mind-blowing" depending on a number of factors. In short, much higher resolution, accompanied by a reduction in musical artifacts, sypathetic resonances, microphonics, etc. Our brains have more/better information to process and less "false" information to take away from the experience (including reduction of listening fatigue). Now, substitute 3.5x as the variable and the comparision in the delivery of accurate music into the space is, well, no comparison.
The other element I’d like to introduce is that different social interactions require different environments for many. Music is quite personal to some. Shared for others. Different spaces. Different agendas. Different hardware, software, friends, and refreshments. One size/technology does not fit all.
Great tip, if you have time would you mind posting your system and a few pics in your profile? Open the Virtual System area and just add a new system, thanks.
Have seen/heard it. Think "home theater" is possibly the worst idea since New Coke. Overblown bass; unnatural midrange (so you can hear the dialog over the explosions) and shrieky highs. No thanks. What I get via my stereo is just fine by me. My wife and I have quit going to theaters because the sound is so unrealistic and waaaay too loud, for the same reasons I note above. Particularly the theaters with Klipsch and JBL systems. Just my two cents . . . .
The quarrel between " 70 years old audiophile" as i am with my stereo and so called younger multichannel upmixer users is LUDICROUS...
Looks like those over the age of 70 could care less about Dolby Atmos and are using every excuse in the book to justify their very expensive awesome sounding 2 channel.
+1, and the anger that anyone else can enjoy something that is different than stereo (note, I didn’t say better than stereo, not going there).
Be it stereo or multichannel users , the only factor that matter NOW is : do you have the BACCH filters or not ? Because the only question that matter for 2 channel users and multichannels users is : Is your TIMBRE perception good in your system and how about spatial localisation ?
Two channels or more , the only thing that will improve sound experience to the TOP is the Choueiri invention ....Then why quarrelling ?
Psycho-acoustic is not a fad or a marketing ploy it is pure science...
Then stop arguing in completely outdate debate about 2 channels or more...
@kota1sad but Auro went under a few months back. Plenty of good Atmos out there in Blu-ray and streaming.
And the Eversolo works great streaming my 60+ multi channel SACD/DVDA and few DTS CDs I ripped. I just plugged in a 1TB drive in back and use their software. Roon works too but seems to push the core to its limits. Even dorect connected some SACDs seem to push the limits.
the CR-1 was one of my best investments. It really lets me get the most out of two systems that happen to share 2.1 speakers. And it’s a great sounding xover I will add for a two channel system.
Thanks for sharing that link in this thread, perfect! I didn't even know about that and can't wait to try some of the Auro-3D content which is pretty scarce.
The is no receiver even close imo vs a good dedicated 2 channel integrated amp or separates.
I have not auditioned a flagship receiver and use a processor. I have a good two channel preamp/DAC in my system and can pivot to a pure two channel system.
I get your comment though and the prices reflect that. A good 2 ch integrated from Anthem is around $5K and their 7 channel receivers are around $3K, that extra $2K is buying you something :).
With a push of a button it’s the 2.1 part of my 7.1.4 Atmos system I can use for both movies and music. Eversolo now streams my ripped 5.1 library replacing my oppo.
Now that's a good idea, I need to checkout the Eversolo.
Looks like those over the age of 70 could care less about Dolby Atmos and are using every excuse in the book to justify their very expensive awesome sounding 2 channel.
+1, and the anger that anyone else can enjoy something that is different than stereo (note, I didn’t say better than stereo, not going there).
The "you only have 2 ears" BS is a tired and antiquated comment generally told by the "Geezers" in the room.
Yep, these are "audio karens", they show up a lot in threads on cables or in any discussion about measurements too.
For me it’s been multichannel madness since the 1st DVD-Video (and later Audio) discs came 25 years ago. 6 dedicated (albeit compressed) channels of full frequency audio. Amazing. I bought (and still keep) a lot of Rock Concert DVD’s.
+1, I have been scooping up second hand concert DVD and Blurays on Amazon and local thrift shops at around $5 a pop. Ripped them to a NAS and playing back on a Zidoo multimedia box, fantastic. I often upmix the 5.1 DTS or DD soundtrack using the auro 3d or dolby surround upmixers.
Thanks for sharing the journey, the Bas-X amps are supposed to be awesome and yes, discs are always a step up from streaming. The BEST disc I own is the Kraftwerk concert. An Atmos disc AND you can also play it back in 3D. Absolutely the BEST experience, at the level of attending the concert without the crowds.
Looks like those over the age of 70 could care less about Dolby Atmos and are using every excuse in the book to justify their very expensive awesome sounding 2 channel. Fair enough. I love a great 2 channel rig as much as the next person.
The "you only have 2 ears" BS is a tired and antiquated comment generally told by the "Geezers" in the room.
For me it's been multichannel madness since the 1st DVD-Video (and later Audio) discs came 25 years ago. 6 dedicated (albeit compressed) channels of full frequency audio. Amazing. I bought (and still keep) a lot of Rock Concert DVD's.
Fast forward to 2022 and I went Dolby Atmos and documented the whole messy install with the help of my Son. No, it's not for the Rich or faint of heart. I found 4 Klipsch 8" Woofer/Dome Horn loaded Tweeter for only $60 - $65 a piece on Amazon Warehouse last December. These usually retail for $300 a pair. I upgraded the Crossover Caps because I could. Emotiva have their decent budget Bas-X Amplifiers on a 10% discount for 1st time buyers. So I bought a 4 channel Amp from them. Building and Orchard Audio 4 Channel Amp would have been overkill for Speakers that are not being used 50% of the time.
Now understand that Dolby Atmos played via Amazon Music or Apple Music is compressed on all channels. Onlt their 2 channel music offerings are lossless.
Playing BluRay's (4k discs typically have uncompressed multichannel audio) is an absolute joy to listen to.
I have some Atmos Discs (All Things Must Pass, Abbey Road, Let It Be, Fully Completely, Moving Pictures, and some demo Dolby and other material.
While my in ceiling Speakers don't follow Dolby's recommendations. I did the best I could WRT to placement and where my ceiling beams/joists are located.
YOU MUST HAVE OPEN EARS AND TOTALLY FORGET ABOUT THE 2CH VERSION !!!!!!!
I can't state this enough times over and over again. These mixes are meant to bring out things in the music you never knew were there without owning a 6 to 7 figure 2 channel audio system !!!
What I hate is the Boxed Set Money Grab that our favourite Artists are doing to fulfill their Retirement funds. I get it. Between Peer to Peer sharing and low sales of their poor most recent recordings. The can only make a Buck touring (good) and rebranding/remastering/remixing and re-marketing their Best Albums yet again (bad and good I guess).
I believe kids with headphones will drive this market.
I hope you are right, get them started from where they are right now with spatial audio and some apple air pods and have them spread the word on tiktok.
So I am in the very small minority with a duel music/movie room. It is all the room is used for, fully treated and painted black with felt walls. It is used for 99% two channel music (I play video games often when listening) and watch probably 5 movies a year in the room (music everyday).
Anyway I am not sure I can be bothered. Ceiling speakers sound like crap. They are too small and well in the ceiling. My rears don’t match my front either. Honestly if I wanted to listen to multi channel music I would want all channels to be the same which is a huge waist of money.
the other problem is the walled garden of apple. You can’t get an Apple TV or computer to a good DAC as it requires HDMI for atmos which is 99% just home theater processors right now.
I believe kids with headphones will drive this market. If some of us use it, we will be in the extreme minority. My system is fully ready and capable and I can’t say I care. Music is played on a stage in front my us. Not behind us or over head.
Classical music was on an infrequent rotation in my listening room until I started listening in atmos. Some of the classical Atmos recordings were miked and mixed in such a way that you get an experience as if you are listening from the conductors position. Now I love it and symphonies are my favorite, it just conveys the experience in my room that is so different, even from a live concert, because you NEVER sit where the conductor is.
Another scary good experience was listening to West Side Story soundtrack album. I didn’t see the most recent movie but the atmos mix on the soundtrack recording is unlike anything I ever heard in my room. Stephen Spielberg directed the movie and his finger prints are all over the creative team that worked on the album.
Bringing together the best of both Broadway and Hollywood, the film’s creative team includes Kushner, who also served as an executive producer; Tony Award® winner Justin Peck, who choreographed the musical numbers in the film; renowned Los Angeles Philharmonic conductor and GRAMMY® Award winner Gustavo Dudamel, who helmed the recording of the iconic score;
Academy Award®–nominated composer and conductor David Newman (“Anastasia”), who arranged the score; Tony Award®–winning composer Jeanine Tesori (“Fun Home,” “Thoroughly Modern Millie”), who supervised the cast on vocals; and GRAMMY®-nominated music supervisor Matt Sullivan (“Beauty and the Beast,” “Chicago,” “Hairspray”), who serves as executive music producer. The film is produced by Spielberg, p.g.a., Academy Award®–nominated producer Kristie Macosko Krieger, p.g.a., and Tony Award®–winning producer Kevin McCollum.
Gustavo Dudamel—renowned music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the National Youth Orchestra of Venezuela and the Paris Opéra—was engaged to conduct the orchestra for music recordings. The music was performed by the New York Philharmonic with additional music performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic. David Newman, a celebrated arranger and conductor who has worked on more than 100 movies, handles both arrangements, as well as some conducting. Dudamel said, “‘West Side Story,’ for me, as for all of us in the music world, is part of my DNA. Every single melody in it is so natural and easy for anyone to process. Naturally, it felt right to work with the New York Philharmonic, Bernstein’s own orchestra, and have the musicians be part of the new chapter of this masterpiece.”
The West Side Story Original Motion Picture Soundtrack
The speakers ‘disappear’ and ‘you are there’. Also, his processor takes away the need to hang room treatments everywhere, and agonize with speaker and sub setup.
True, audio starts and ends with acoustics. The Martin Logan Forte steamer/amp your son got has room correction as well and hits way above expectations, nice size for a desktop setup too, hope he likes it!
There's another way to look at this. Some are happy taking cheap shots, thinking themselves clever. Others are perfectly content with what others do without raising any animosity over what is basically a non issue. Others are just angry about those that could care less so they attack them on spurious claims about system costs wrapped in premises of jealousy. Live and let live and let others go about tilting at their windmills.
Best way to look at this. Some are happy to drive a Chevette while thinking it's a Corvette. Others will work hard so they can have the real thing. Others are just angry others have a Corvette while they drive the Chevette so they put down the Corvette. Do you and enjoy. Help those that want the help.
I stopped reading when told Elton John is a fan. Obviously not my thing, Elton or Atmos. If nothing else, getting too old to bother with starting over. Same as AI. It will probably take over someday, but I will gladly miss it.
I applaud you for trying to open some eyes. Yes it’s not for all but when starting from stretch it’s not an impossible task. If you have two rooms even easier. I have a dual purpose room and use a JL Audio CR-1 as the linch pin to make my room do that. My 2 channel issues it as a xover for my G25HP Rythmik subwoofer. With a push of a button it’s the 2.1 part of my 7.1.4 Atmos system I can use for both movies and music. Eversolo now streams my ripped 5.1 library replacing my oppo. My 2 channel system is waaay more costly than my theater. About 70k vs 30k. Don’t forget I count the 2.1 in each system. So speakers are a large chunk of the 5.1.
just added my AirLens to compare streaming. Why not if you can. And yeah if it does not tickle your fancy then don’t.
Thanks for bringing it up. My son is a big fan and has recently outfitted his basement with a setup similar to what you describe. I’m happy with my 5.1 theater and a simple 2 channel setup.
His system sounds great to me. In my opinion, same thing some struggle to achieve with 2 channel.
The speakers ‘disappear’ and ‘you are there’. Also, his processor takes away the need to hang room treatments everywhere, and agonize with speaker and sub setup. You have to put in some effort, but that processor and its tuning abilities are not insignificant. Good enough for the girls we run with.
Plus, he wants to spend time with his family, not sitting alone in the sweet spot.
He just bought the Martin Logan streamer/amp w/arc you recommend for his office 2 channel system, I’ll let you know!
Honky Chateau by the way, should be in everyone’s EJ collection.
+1
That album is like micro chipped in my brain. It started with the LP back in the day, then the CD. I have 4 concert bluerays of EJ which are all stunning Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Then you hear the atmos mix and it is like hearing it in a way that is more realistic than anything previously, totally unexpected to what the "microchip" is remembering. I just don’t get tired of playing it.
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