Do I need a subwoofer?

When I took the journey into the sub world I kept hearing 2 are better than one and 4 are better than 2.  I'm very pleased that I heard it over and over.  I asked many about subs but unfortunately many viewers and no answers.  Thank you millercarbon for the knowledge you provided me.  I always thought just one very expensive sub, but you set me straight and made my path easier, I appreciate that when no others replied.   I sincerely mean that, I literally had hundreds of views and you and a few replied.  Erik was also contributed and I really appreciate that.  I am here for the knowledge, not the combat between long time jealousy.  

@imaninatural  Thank you, I will add Rythmik to my list. I've seen their name come up a few times now.

I was debating between the REL and Rythmik Subwoofer.

I went with Rythmik due to the lower extension (down to 14hz) and fine-tuning capacity for integration.

I appreciate the High Pass Filter to reduce the woofer excursion on the mains, enhancing clarity.

You might like considering them while you're researching: https://www.rythmikaudio.com/

@jerryg123 , You are right in that the volume of a point source system drops of at the cube of the distance at all frequencies. You are also right that a room can increase bass at certain frequencies at various locations depending on the room. However, drivers have a frequency response range, a range where they can effectively radiate the frequencies they are responsible for. What is the low frequency limit of a woofer?  Woofers do not have electronic high pass filters. They will vibrate at 10 Hz even though they are incapable of radiating that frequency usually because they are too small or they can not move far enough. If you stick the microphone right up to the driver say 1/2 inch away you will be able to see 10 Hz on an oscilloscope at some volume. As you move away that volume will drop of rapidly way faster than the cube of the distance.  By a meter you will not be able to measure it at all. As the woofer gets larger (in an appropriate enclosure) and moves farther you will pick up 10 Hz louder until finally the volume is up to the rest of the frequencies at one meter. But at distances farther away the lower bass limit will rise or rather the volume at 10 Hz will fall off faster then the rest of the frequencies. This is why the specification for frequency response is so misleading. Just because a speaker's 3 dB down point is at 28 Hz at 1 meter does not mean it will be 3 dB down relative to the other frequencies at 4 meters. Under most circumstances the 3 dB down point will head north. At 4 meters it might be up at 40 Hz.

@mijostyn Little salty? I did not quote any specs that was cindyment.

@jerryg123 , that is certainly the easy way out. You will just have to live with more distortion in your main speakers and very little if any bass below 40 Hz and please don't quote specs. 1 meter is a lot different than 12 feet in a residential room.

For many this is the better way to go. Without digital bass management integrating subwoofers can be a real PITA and commercial subwoofers other than Magico's Q subs and perhaps one or two others are pretty bad. I listened to a smallish monitor system last weekend and it was surprisingly good excepting there was no low bass. I can understand why many people would stop there. Those monitors were better than any tower speaker I have heard.

 I really appreciate the input as I put my audiophile research hat back on.

If you actually do research, as opposed to going with the majority status quo then you will read up on DBA and find that compared to the importance of using 4 subs the choice of which subs to use hardly even matters. The truth is if you stick with one or two there are no one or two ever made that will be as good as any 4 you could buy at random.

Do the research, you will see.

By and large a sub is a good idea.  Most 'full range' speakers are not quite full range.  However, consider that many people run stand mounts happily.  To my way of thinking either get a good sub or just run with what you have.

Two (or more) subs or just one?  There is an overwhelming consensus that multiple subs are better than one.  This obvious truth is unhelpful.  The issue cannot be seen in a vacuum.  First up, there may be space issues.  Second two subs will cost more than one.  I consider it better to get one better quality sub.  On the other hand it may actually be easier to locate two subs than one.  This is on the basis that you cannot get a perfect location for one sub.  Now you really do need to get two subs.

Now, what brand of sub?  I guess reputation and reviews and forum opinions are very helpful.  Let me add a bit more: try to get a sub that will integrate with your system - ie integrate with your amp and your speakers.  Here are my tips:

First, if possible get a sub that takes high-level input.  That is to say it takes the signal from the power amp rather than the pre amp.  (Not a big deal if you have an integrated).  The reason is that your sub and your speakers will share the exact same signal.  This is better because the signal from the pre-amp is a little different than the signal from the power amp.  This is strikingly obvious if you had a solid state pre and a tube power amp.

Second, try to match your sub and the power amp.  If your power amp runs SS with mosfets, then a sub with mosfets would be ideal

Third, try to match your sub with your speakers.  So: paper cone - paper cone; carbon fiber cone - carbon fiber cone (what I have).  Ported design - ported design; sealed cabinet - sealed cabinet.

Best of luck

@soix it was so loud in the old Barn. The UC is nice but……the washrooms are a lot nicer lol.

@mijostyn my preference for now is no sub.

cheers.

I have 2 sb3000.  Very happy with them.  Ht they do a fantastic job.  Looking to add another one soon.  They sound great with music, but I am 95 percent ht.  Listened to rel t9/I and jl.  Decided on svs.  Sb3000 had great reviews so I jumped in, no regrets.  I've also seen many great reviews on psa.  I have one sub in front between TV and speaker and another opposite rear corner.  One sub is OK.  But 2 is definitely needed.  I have a anthem avm 60 and used it's room correction, gave me poor results. Friend came over and used rew.  Deal breaker.  If I was going to change subs I probably would look into the psa 21 sealed.  Like I said I'm mainly HT. 

Good luck 

 the QLN Prestige 5s are down 3dB at 26 Hz at 1 meter which means in a normal sized room at 3 meters they are down somewhere around 10 dB. You still need subwoofers if you want to try duplicating a live performance.

That is not how it works. Every frequency is "down" at 3 meters, but depending on cancellation, room response, it could be up at 26.

@mijostyn Thanks for the clear and logical explanation. I learn something new every time. 

@jerryg123 — I’d rethink that sub decision. Huge fan of ur speaks and ur hawks logo BTW. Lived in Chicago for a bit and sadly didn’t get to see them play in the old arena — one of my biggest sports regrets. Anyhoo, I was listening to an ultra mega system with “full-range” speaks that went down to the low 20s with stereo subs, and when he turned off the subs the whole soundstage collapsed and the dynamics and imaging of the whole thing took a huge step backwards. I was gobsmacked and didn’t wanna listen to his otherwise awesome system without the subs anymore — it was that huge of a difference and truly one of my top 3 AHA moments in audio (even surpassing the incredible impact of the oft-neglected preamp that is likewise HUGE IMHO).  I only say this to say that even with your incredibly awesome speakers I can only aspire to, you might wanna give those subs another crack crossed over suitably low that they don’t eff up all the goodness those QLNs produce. I mean, even Wilson uses subs with their Alexandras, so...

@jerryg123 , the QLN Prestige 5s are down 3dB at 26 Hz at 1 meter which means in a normal sized room at 3 meters they are down somewhere around 10 dB. You still need subwoofers if you want to try duplicating a live performance. 

@olfac87 , two subwoofers is the minimal requirement for decent bass. Cindyment made a very important point. Most people do the cheap and dirty method of integrating subs by using only low pass filters on the subwoofers. Using a full two way active crossover and putting a high pass filter on the main speakers will decrease distortion in the main speakers and add a significant amount of head room to the system.  The ultimate way of integrating subwoofers is with a digital bass management system such as you find in MiniDSP units and digital preamps such as the DEQX Premate, Anthem STR and Trinnov Amethyst. These allow you to adjust your speakers in time so that the sound of the subwoofers gets to your ears at exactly the same time and phase as the main speaker. Using a high pass filter and time correction allow you to put the subs where they work best, in corners or right up against a wall, and allow a higher crossover points further lowering distortion and increasing head room. With the 801s I would not want to cross over any lower than 80 Hz. 

The only commercial subs I like are the Magico Q series units. If you are decent with tools you can build a fine pair of subs from Dayton Kits (partsexpress.com) and save enough money to get a proper crossover, measurement microphone system and a vacation in Tuscany. 

@cindyment They are Series 80s. 

No subs for me please. Have them in the house but after my acquisition of the QLN Prestige 5’s they are no longer in use. 
 

Just my preference not saying anything negative and they worked fine when I was running monitors. 
 

I Robot.

Yes to the sub(s) they will add serious weight to your sound not to mention enlarging your sound stage.  I am a REL fan but there are other good ones.  Currently using the S/812.  Highly recommended.  

Yes to subwoofer(s). My speakers extend reliably to the mid 30s but the additional weight provided by adding two powered subs with 22Hz bass LF extension is substantial. I recommend that you choose self-powered units with built-in room correction for maximum satisfaction.

@olfac87 ,

Do you know exactly what series it is? It should be on the back.

The series 80, the first ones, didn't go that deep on the bass, they were 2db down at 37Hz (quick check) and by 20Hz would have dropped a lot. Subs would definitely help for the deep bass.

The series 2 was tuned to achieve much deeper bass. They were flat to almost 20Hz. However, the series 2 to work "properly" required the external equalizer.

I am definitely a subs person, and high pass the mains. It reduces distortion. Would that benefit the 801? It is a trade off. Using the bass of the 801 with external subs will even out the bass at the trade-off of more distortion in the 801s. A challenge and fun experiment to see what you like better. I do recommend for subs learning how to take room measurements. It is cheap and much quicker and more accurate than trying to do it by ear.

Saying thank you again. I will definitely look at both SVS and REL, and I've already reached out about room treatments before I do anything else. I really appreciate the input as I put my audiophile research hat back on.

Yes to subs always yes lol. 

P.S.- I purchased REL T7/i and love it.

Well, this doesn’t have anything to do with law but rather experience in audio.  I stand by mine.  What’s yours?

@soix I agreed with that one aspect of what you said, that's it. Please re-read and then let it go...

Just say "I don’t agree with that particular opinion and here’s why"

Uh, that’s exactly what I did when I said I’d take two good but lesser subs over one “better” sub that you seemed to agree with. If you don’t like SVS subs that’s fine, but you actually agreed with me, so where u going with this?

I swear this forum has more crybabies than any other I’m aware of.

Well, no. This forum just tolerates people who come on here with credible experience based on years of listening and hearing lots of gear in lots of different scenarios. That I challenged you on a fairly minor point and you fail to respond intelligently says a lot about your credibility. But whatever, feel free to keep digging yourself deeper.

I'm defensive? That's really not how this back and forth is coming across, my friend. You absolutely got your feelings hurt that I don't like SVS subs, no matter what you say. Why do you care so much? Just say "I don't agree with that particular opinion and here's why" Meanwhile, we're hijacking and derailing this thread. I'm a hack and don't know what I'm talking about. My personal experience amounts to nothing. There, feel better? I swear this forum has more crybabies than any other I'm aware of.

@torquerulesok what a fantastic post, bet it sounds wonderful  ;-)

best to you over the pond

Jim

but with the rest of your system you really owe it to yourself to step up to a better pair.

But @shooter41, i didn’t ask for your “advice” such as it is. I just responded with an informed response and you’re defensive and offended despite agreeing with my contention that 2 or more subs are superior to one “better” sub. Why so touchy/insecure? Maybe regale us with your extensive background/credentials in audio? Please share what your depth of knowledge and experience is based on?

@soix What do you call this post, "chief"?

Really @shooter41? What’s your experience with sealed SVS subs? My experience with my SB2000 in a fairly high-end, 2-channel setup is pretty damn impressive and I’d think adding another would be even more so, so I’d be interested in what specific experience you have to say this? Yeah, I’d probably prefer Rythmic or maybe even Rel, but they’d both cost much more for similar performance so for the $ the SVS subs get you pretty damn good performance. Maybe you could share what their shortcomings are, because failing a direct comparison to pricier subs I’m at a loss for criticizing them for bass speed, musicality, or depth. Please explain.

@shooter41 I didn’t ask.  You offered and I responded in kind.  Not royalty, just someone with some experience.  Your move chief. 

@soix Dude, you asked. I had no idea I was advising audio royalty. 🙄

Gee Scooter, thanks so much for your prized advice.  I’ve reviewed high-end audio for about 20 years, so when I’m ready to add a couple, or even better a swarm, of subs to my 2-channel setup I think I’ll be ok.  But thanks so much for your thoughts. 

Agreed, two subs are usually going to be better than one, even if that one is generally a more capable model, but with the rest of your system you really owe it to yourself to step up to a better pair.

I do think it’s strange, though, that you’re using an SB2000 in a "fairly high-end" system. You need to increase your sub budget, there’s much better performance available for (in Rythmik’s case, at least) not much more money.

@shooter41 No, my feelings not hurt in the least. I transported my SB2000 from my HT in my family room just to see what it might add to my 2-channel system that consists of a Musician Pegasus R2R DAC, Bryston BP6 pre, McCormack DNA-0.5 RevA amp, and Soliloquy 6.2 speakers. The bass foundation was obvious, but the expansion of the soundstage in all directions along with improved imaging even with the one sub properly dialed in was pretty amazing and adding another I’d have to assume would improve things further still. I’ll take two SVS SB1000 Pros for significantly less $$$ over one comparable Rythmic or REL any day as I think two “lesser” yet still very capable subs trump one “better” sub, but you’re certainly entitled to your opinion.

danager came closest, and torquerulesok darn near put his finger on it.

The solution to subs and getting SOTA bass was discovered in a research paper more than 20 years ago. Since then it has been used by Audiokinesis in their Swarm subwoofer system, and written up extensively here. Every single one of us who tries it raves about how well it works. Audiophiles however are slow, painfully slow, when it comes to understanding new technology.

Torquerulesok sort of noticed but drew the wrong conclusions. Bass energy does get absorbed into the room. Walls, ceiling, floor, the whole room. Which then this energy has to be dissipated, a lot of which goes right back into the room. One of the bigger lesser appreciated factors in muddy bass. People who do notice try and suck it up with tube traps. Trying to get rid of the problem they themselves created with the one big powerful sub in the first place.

Or they try and EQ, making a bad situation even worse. Because EQ has to boost bass even more, and it can sound flat in one spot but that extra energy goes into the whole room making the bass smearing problem even worse. More own goal, more tube traps. Thank you sir, may I have another?

The solution is more subs in more locations produces more smaller modes resulting in bass that is powerful and deep yet clean and clear. It works because with 4 each one needs only 1/4 the output, meaning the lumpy modes are only 1/4 as big, meaning way less excess energy going into the room. This is why everyone with a DBA reports not only exceptionally smooth powerful bass but greater natural ease and detail all across the range.

Do a search. This has been explained countless times. Every single one of us who has done this knows just how well it works. The search bar is your friend. Distributed Bass Array, DBA, Swarm. 

I knew someone would get their feelings hurt. I tried SVS SB3000's first with my Kef R900's and they certainly went low but they still sounded like subs and were not what I was looking for. Rythmik was suggested to me so I tried a pair of G22's and found exactly what I was looking for. Seamless integration. I don't fault SVS for any measureable performance metrics and for home theater use I have no doubt they'd fill the bill, they just don't sound as musical to me, or most any other person that's tried Rythmik or REL.

I do think it's strange, though, that you're using an SB2000 in a "fairly high-end" system. You need to increase your sub budget, there's much better performance available for (in Rythmik's case, at least) not much more money.

REL is a good choice, SVS not so much for a music based system.

Really @shooter41? What’s your experience with sealed SVS subs? My experience with my SB2000 in a fairly high-end, 2-channel setup is pretty damn impressive and I’d think adding another would be even more so, so I’d be interested in what specific experience you have to say this? Yeah, I’d probably prefer Rythmic or maybe even Rel, but they’d both cost much more for similar performance so for the $ the SVS subs get you pretty damn good performance. Maybe you could share what their shortcomings are, because failing a direct comparison to pricier subs I’m at a loss for criticizing them for bass speed, musicality, or depth. Please explain.

REL is a good choice, SVS not so much for a music based system. The other good choice is Rythmik. Even their ported models are graceful enough for music systems but their sealed models are simply sublime. Especially check out the G22 (dual 12") and G25 (dual 15") models. You want subs that don't sound like subs but rather like extensions of your existing speakers and either of these brands are capable of doing that, and yes, you definitely want two. Budget for two from the get-go, don't "try" one and see where that gets you. And yes, three or even four are even better, but two should get you where you want to be. 

I very highly recommend a REL sub!  I currently have Zu Druids as my mains because I love them for music, but they don't create deep bass.  Plus I have a totally suboptimal, fairly large, open, irregular room.  I have experimented with a variety of subwoofers in an attempt to give some depth to music, and impact to movies without breaking the bank or taking up half my room.

A couple months ago I picked up a pristine used REL 212 SE hoping that the 2 -12 inch active, and two passive drivers could do the job in an acceptable footprint.  I had been reading great things about REL subs and figured this would be a great way to try them.

Make sure to read this all the way to the end....Because I initially connected the 212 the same way I had my other subs through the LFE on my preamp. and it sounded better, but not overwhelmingly so. I figured I had just reached that diminishing returns line for the room I have.  Though I was still hopeful things could get better once I connected the REL the way the manual recommends. 

The Speakon arrived a few days later so I had time to listen without it, and as previously mentioned, the 212 sounded good, but not enough different to justify the price jump over the SVS subs I had been using.  

Once I made the Speakon connection though I immediately heard a massive difference!  My entire system seemed transformed!  The bass was all I ever hoped it could be for music.  I played some favorite bass heavy music streaming through Tidal, and couldn't believe the difference.  Next I put on Deadpool Blueray to see what would happen with movies and I could feel my pantlegs flapping, and stuff on my shelves rattling the way I've heard other people describe!  And if that's all that happened I would have been very happy.

The totally surprising part was how much the soundstage widened and deepened.  Literally defies description.  It must be heard to be appreciated.  

But wait, there's more!  Seriously though, More!.  Having the REL connected through the Speakon connector and to my amp the way they recommend made the mids and highs sound better too.  Noticeably, obviously better.

I have been playing with a pretty wide variety of decent quality components over the past couple years and the REL 212 SE has overwhelmingly made the biggest upgrade in the sound quality of both music and movies for my system!

I cannot recommend any sub more highly than a REL!

These are a bunch of great posts. Glad to hear other 801 owners' experiences, and appreciate the REL suggestion. I will look into all this.

Go directly to REL.  Do not pass GO.  Do not collect $200 (you'll need it).  Start with one and see where that takes you; don't assume you need more than one until you've spent the time to properly locate the sub in your room and dial in the gain and crossover settings.

+1, @soix 

Yes, you need subs for movies. Two subs will always pressurize your room and address bass nodes better than one giant single sub. Also look into REL HT/1003 or if you can extend your budget for HT/1205. IMO, REL are much better subs when it comes to 2-ch stereo and HT applications. 
 

@olfac87 Hi, I'm a long-time lurker here. Your post prompted me to respond as I went through a similar thought-process recently. I have owned a pair of B&W 801 Series 2 since the early 90s. These are fantastic speakers. Those who say B&W speakers are bright have not heard these speakers, the last ones designed by John Bowers. Your father chose well: I suspect you may have the first iteration of those Matrix speakers, the 801 Series 80. 

The 801 Matrix works really well in solid rooms. I had them in three houses that had solid brick walls and concrete floors and never felt the need for a subwoofer. However, when we moved to Northern Ireland into a property built in 1865, the basement room that is now my dedicated "music room" had a dance floor suspended on joists, with parquet flooring installed by the previous owners. The 50cm thick main walls were covered by plaster board to for a clean look.

In that room I never could get the 801s to sing, the last octave of bass had gone missing. I tried everything I could think of: I had my Krell KSA-250 recapped. I upgraded the XOs on the 801s. I bought a better preamp. I moved the speakers around all over the place. All to no avail: low bass was still AWOL.

At that point I realised that perhaps it wasn't my equipment but the room that might be causing the issue. Perhaps the plasterboard walls just absorbed bass below 40hz. So I lugged one of the dual BK XLSS-400DF subs from our living room system downstairs and hooked it up. That was quite a bit better. Then the other one came downstairs as well. After a bit of fiddling with the set-up of the subs I had a Eureka moment: wow! The bass was back.

Two new subs were ordered and delivered last month and after switching from using the line level inputs to high level/speaker inputs the system now sings.

Integrating two subs in a two channel system is not entirely straight forward but it's not rocket science, either.  With full-range mains like the 801s it is best to think of the subs' crossover frequency control and the gain as a pair (or more accurately, a quartet) of parametric equaliser curves that you can adjust independently of each other. The ability to position two subs in non-mirror imaged positions also gives you more flexibility to tune them to the room requirements. To give you an idea: the subs' crossover frequency is set at 45hz which means that they only start augmenting the bass from about 35hz on down. The best way to judge whether the crossover frequency is set correctly is to listen to male voices: if someone sounds unnatural/speaks with a somewhat boomy voice, the crossover is probably set at too high a frequency. If you can hear a sub over the main speakers, the gain is too high.

I had an audiophile friend over yesterday. When I invited him, I only said, "I've made some changes. I think I've got it sorted now. Let me know what you think." He came down, sat down, and we listend. He started smiling as Hotel California started spinning on the Funk Firm Vector V. He looked around the room and said, "ah, I see - new sub!". "Not quite", I replied, "two new subs." He hadn't noticed - or heard - that there were two subs playing (one is out of sight from the listening position). "That's the best I've ever heard your system sound", he said. "It's true what they say about a good sub installation: not only do you improve the bass but you also get more transparency and resolution at higher frequencies. That 2M Black just sounds amazing." I was quite chuffed when I heard that.

@axpert's recommendation of REL is a good one. High level inputs do make the seamless integration of multiple subs easier. Alternatively, give Tom at BK a call to check about shipping to the US. REL used to subcontract the assembly of their early subs out to BK. The company still constructs speakers on an OEM basis for several well-known UK manufacturers. The built quality is exemplary, the veneer looks classy, and special orders are easily facilitated: my new mahogany XLS400s came with an auto-on/off circuit added at my request. I have no connection to the firm other than being a happy customer. 

Good luck!

Citing the type of application and music preferences you have indicated, if you are truly looking for that extra lower octave O -O - M - P - H as you have stated, do yourself a favor and look seriously at the entire lineup of REL subs. For dynamic audio reproduction or that extra "kick" you seem to lack, REL will provide exactly what you are looking. You can also contact one of their audio specialists and describe your interests and equipment setups and they will recommend the exact model that will offer the greatest reward. You might even consider a balanced pair.

Just be certain you have the amplifier connectivity to set up the sub(s) at a "high level" (speaker level) connection. This should be no problem with the equipment you have indicated. REL will walk you through the proper way to connect and integrate seamlessly into your system.

Yes, especially for movies. And also for music if you ever in the past listened with loudness control on and you liked it. 

I have B&W 803 D3. I don’t really need a sub for my stereo listening. But I do have a B&W DB2D. It blends with the 803 D3 perfectly with the app. I just selected the model of the main speakers, run the room correction with the app. Set up is done in  few minutes. 
 

key to good bass for B&W speakers (other brands too) is using good power amp. I run it with my Macintosh MA462 (450W per channel). 

@olfac87 Firstly, I wish to express my condolences to you on your loss.

I also have just inherited a pair of B&W 801 Matrix S2s of roughly the same era from my uncle who is moving to senior living.

Agree 100% with elliottbnewcombjr and simonmoon

And what danager said is absolutely correct. In particular:

The good news is that doesn't require the most expensive subs and they really only fill in for room acoustics. 

I will add that they can also vary in size, manufacturer, etc.

I hear that active subs can also be thrown in to the mix.

So I put the 801s in my 15' x 19' (9' ceiling and wall to wall carpet) where I have a multi-sub swarm. I wanted to listen to these wonderous new speakers by themselves for a while.  Haven't owned speakers anywhere near this big in decades and these 801s just brought back many found memories.

After turning on the subs and some minor gain and frequency adjustments there was a very noticeable improvement as others have mentioned. 

The bass had more detail and finesse. But this improvement extends upward into the midrange as well. Bigger and more enveloping soundstage. Everything was just more convincing.

But for lack of ways to further (better?) describe the experience, I will just say that I really enjoyed listening more with the subs on.

Definitely worth your while to consider.

 Good luck and have fun with your search!