I'd be very grateful for some help with a quandary.
I recently replaced my Ohm Walsh 1000 speakers with Heresy III speakers, running two-channel from a Rega Brio. I was pretty excited about the Heresy IIIs based on reviews — they were efficient, so my 35-watt amp would get the job done; they were supposed to have real punch in the low mid-range, so I could hear the upright bass clearly; they reportedly had excellent imaging; and best of all, they were supposed to sound great at low volumes. They are also indisputably beautiful, which was an important factor for my wife. (The Ohms are elegant, but you have to be an audio lover to see their beauty.)
I set them up, and . . . not so bad, pretty good. Especially loud. In fact the louder the better. Crank them up and they sing. But loud is not really an option with a new baby. So how do they sound quiet? They sound like the band is trapped in shoe box. Really in two shoe boxes because the L and R don't merge that well. The sound stage is tiny. All the detail is gone, the joy is gone. They are no fun at all. Music just seems like a bunch of noise.
But I want to believe! I want to make these speakers work. So I am faced with a quandary. I could:
1. Buy stands, a subwoofer and a tube amp, all of which people in various forums have recommended to improve the various failings I hear now.
2. Replace the Rega with something much more powerful and pull the Ohms out of the closet. (Suboptimal because it will make my wife sad because of the aforementioned perceived ugliness.)
3. Just start all over again. Different amp, different speakers.
I'd kind of prefer number 1. But I don't want to end up with a bunch of stuff designed to solve a problem and then not have that problem solved! (And I'd also just as soon avoid getting a subwoofer.)
Final note. Positioning is an intractable nightmare. It is the one thing that I can't really change, because of how our living room is layed out. It is obviously a big problem though. The living room is a big rectangle, 18 x 40 feet, and the speakers are near the corners of the 18-foot ends, on either side of a couch. I can move them around — closer or further from the couch, closer or further from the wall. But I can't raise them above the height of the couch or move them out in front or over to another wall. That discussion went nowhere!
First, thank you to everyone for the really helpful advice. This hobby is fun in large part because you are always learning something new, and I really learned a lot from this conversation.
And yet — as is so often the case — I solved my problem by chance encounter! I was at a vintage audio place in Brooklyn that had a Luxman L-450 for sale. From this thread I knew I needed to either give the Heresys a different signal or the Ohms more power. The Luxman was more powerful than the Brio, and it had tone controls. Seemed like it would improve the situation either way. And of course Luxman has an excellent reputation. So I bought it.
The result: I love my system!
The biggest surprise was that imaging has *radically* improved. The music is totally coherent and engaging. Cranking the bass way up pretty much solved the bass problem. And the general character of the Luxman is very, very pleasing.
Of course, I still see a future with an even better amp, decent stands for the Heresys, better placement, an improved DAC, maybe even a subwoofer, etc. But things are just much better.
Again, thanks all for the coaching. I will be back with more questions soon!
Great step forward the next steps should be upgrading cable and DAC , I really don’t think you need a sub with the right changes you will not need it .
Yeah, funny how so many assume they know the character and capabilities of Heresys simply from what they read on the web, or their recollection of a 5 minute audition of H1s, twenty years ago. The Heresy IIIs respond very well to system changes, more so than many speakers costing twice as much.
Glad to hear the Luxman yielded such a large improvement. In the future, consider a tube integrated, something like a 20 watt plus Cayin, Line Magnetic, Raven Audio, or Prima Luna. My Heresys perform better in the bass region with my Cayin tube amp than they do with any SS amp. The opposite is true with my other brands. Klipsch speakers crave those valves!
The Harbeths are approximately twice the price of Heresys. It's funny how we all hear things differently. While I liked some aspects of the C7s, I much prefer the Heresy IIIs, despite their limitations.
Volume not to be confused with db? Hmmm…I'm a professional live sound engineer so I actually know some things (and I'm not very smart so there's plenty I don't know)...also, I use 2 REL subs in a 20X30 ft room with 91DB rated main speakers and a 12 watt per side single ended tube amp, and it can go to room filling loudness at levels that are too loud for my listening "sweet spot" unless I'm very drunk…in which case it just doesn't matter anyway…but Heresy IIIs will fill a largish room easily with very little wattage, only limited to the previously noted low frequency range easily remedied with one or two possibly used (like mine) subs…my RELs, a Q108eMK2 (100 watts, 8") and a Q150e (150 watt 10") cost around 200 bucks each and are amazing sounding.
I’ve been giving more serious consideration to trying out higher efficiency speakers with my 60w//ch digital integrated amp mainly to go louder and similarly clear when needed.
Current speakers are 89db refurbed OHM Ls.
Been eyeballing used Klipsch Forte or Heresy and newer very high efficiency Klipsch monitors with 8" bass drivers similar to the Ls. These have similar frequency response specs but with sensitivity in the high 90s for $600 pair. What to loose trying at that price?
Similar smaller Klipsch monitors I’ve heard in passing sounded good enough to make the cut.
Can’t be too big or wide in particular. Will be about 2’ out from rear wall.
Would like to try something that has bass well down into the 40s (Klipsch monitors), 30s if possible (Forte). Heresy does not make that cut without subs I think and I’d rather not have to deal with subs if possible.
I also may get to hear larger Tektons this weekend if I make it Capital Audiofest as planned. We’ll see how that goes as well.
Have heard Zu Essence I believe several times at shows and never quite floated my boat so far. Might try again.
The RB-81II's are pretty big sounding for "bookshelf" speakers and can be driven pretty well with 60w/ch. Before you pull the trigger on those, look on the used market for a pair of RB-75's. They will command a higher price but you will get real wood veneer, a 1.75" titanium true compression driver, and a solid cabinet at 32lbs each. Though my pair sounded awesome with great low frequency extension(nearing 40Hz) in my room, I did add a nice sub to fill in the bottom.
It’s your amp. Period. With these speakers (and they are AMAZING and replaced $20k speakers for me, and I would never go back to those high dollar boxes) you need QUALITY amplification and high current. Big transformers help. Yes, they are efficient but need that quality amplification, preferably tube as SS will make them sound thin and edgy.
I use a Line Magnetic 219ia with mine and its the best sound I have ever had in my home after adding quality cables as well. YES, cables make a huge difference even though expensive is not always better.
Also, if your room is large, you would need larger speakers. These excel in small rooms. Mine is 12x12. I sit around 7 ft from the speakers which are out in the room and toed in. RICH wall of sound with some of the best imaging and soundstage width I have ever heard. These speakers, when set up correctly in a smaller room are pure magic. The biggest sound I have experienced here over 20 years of high audio systems.
So these love high quality tube amplification. They love good speaker cable and they sound best for me away from the walls and into the room a bit. I will never get rid of these as for the money they can not be beat. Not even for $5k or even $7500 (if room size and amplification is right).
I got lucky with synergy here I guess. I did try these with a $7k SS amp and they sounded dry, and had not so hot low volume performance. With tubes I use around 1/4 watt for low level late night listening and get rich, full magical sound. I use Audioquest Colorado IC’s, Gibraltar Speaker cable and a Niagra 1000 with a Tornado power cable. I use a blue sound node for digital, using its dac and also vinyl with a Marantz TT15 and musical fidelity MX VINYL.
Now that my new Heresy IIIs have settled in I can say they’re nothing short of amazing in my 20 X 30 foot slant (tall) ceilinged room. I tried ’em on stands for a while and although I have 2 excellent REL subs, I put them back on the floor with their little slant risers as somehow they seem to thrive that way…they’re on 1.5" butcher blocks decoupled with Vibrapods (don’t want my wood floors intruding on anything, so the "pods" are directly under the speakers and the butcher blocks just have small feet which makes the whole thing easier to move for position tweaking). Interestingly (or not…I’m never sure) the Heresy cabinet is one of the most inert I’ve used…put your hand on the cabinet side when some bass is pumping through them and note zero vibration, which says to me they’re very solid, or the bass is anemic…maybe both…but the RELs more than make up for any low frequency issues although it took a while to readjust them as less power gets to them now. My little single ended "Fire Bottle" amp is sending so much less wattage to the Heresys than with my previous speakers, and different frequency adjustments for the subs needed attention…no biggie and hat’s off to efficiency, which was my main objective in buying these speakers in the first place. I think efficiency translates into "instantaneous dynamic tone bursts" with any amp, but that could be my fertile imagination at work. I do agree with others who state the obvious that "better in means better out," as these speakers don’t disguise an "iffy" amp or cables, and they have a sweet and direct coherency that I’m enjoying. When I feel any recording lacks highs or lows, or Fletcher Munson is in da house (late night…you know), I dial in my Schiit Loki and those speakers respond like the thing was designed for them. Get a Loki…they’re cheap although unbalanced, not unlike myself.
Thanks for sharing your review. I agree with much of what you wrote.
I too was apprehensive to try the Heresys for the same reasons. The H-IIIs are a perfect example of why forums can occasionally be detrimental to our pursuits.
I’ve had the H-IIIs for about 8 months now and I still enjoy them immensely. Since then, I’ve added passive KEF LS50s to the stable for a third system. My take is the LS50s have the superior midrange and off-axis imaging, but the Heresys have the better dynamics and low-volume performance. I wouldn’t trade one for the other, but where price is concerned, I think the LS50s still hold the budget speaker crown, especially at their recent prices. I also tried some Vandersteen 1Cis for a while. They’re another great bargain, and other than some odd sibilance I experienced with some recordings, I prefer them to many sub $5K speakers.
I run my H-IIIs with a 45 watt/ch Cayin tube integrated. They definitely require valve power to sound best. Rolling in a pair of WWII era RCA preamp tubes rounded out the sound to a near perfect balance. I also tried them with a Yamaha integrated (albeit the much cheaper A-S500) and they sounded quite good. Most of my speakers have superior bass when paired with my humble A-S500 (compared to any <$3K integrated I’ve owned, believe it or not), but not the H-IIIs. Their bass improves immensely with the high current of a tube amp.
Folks who base their opinion on the old H1s would do well to give the new Heritage line a chance. One of my local dealers sells many well regarded brands such as ATC, Harbeth, and Vandersteen, yet the H-IIIs are one of his top sellers.
I will echo what Wolf said about the Heresys, they are great speakers. I listened to a number of speakers around $2k and nothing really came close to what they do for their price.
I think many who disparage Klipsch have never even listened to the Heritage line, they are not harsh or bright at all with good electronics.
Agree on the Quicksilvers. Mike has made great amps for many many years. I"ve owned a bunch of his gear and loved every piece. Built very well too. I had a buddy who had the Heresy's and used Quicksilver amp and pre amp and LOVED them more than some of the more expensive tube gear. They need that to warm up a bit.
I now read any speaker review with a point of view tainted by my enjoyment of a low powered single ended tube amp, as only efficient speakers really work well with it (unless it's used in a desktop rig maybe). No LS50 for me (I do think they're way cool though), although elsewhere in my house I use my beloved KEF Q10s I've had forever….GREAT speaker! The good news regarding efficient speakers is you can save bucks by buying lower powered versions of cool amps…Pass just came out with their least expensive amp, a Class A 25 watter that seems like a good thing, or great small tube amps…I auditioned the Heresy IIIs with a Luxman M200, a very cool little 25 watt SS amp with an interesting wattage display (made it to almost 3 watts when I was listening to it).
@mapman "Have heard Zu Essence I believe several times at shows and never quite floated my boat so far. Might try again."
I doubt a company does worse at showing their speakers off than Zu. At shows, they often come off as horrific, and leave so many wondering how they sell any product. And yet with that, the folks from the company exceed most any other.
In the effort to understand what drove all the fuss about the actual product, I've visited several people who had them in their homes. In a good setup, they can really shine. If I wanted to move on a pair, the Essence, Presence, and Definition most attract me.
Compared to the Zu, Heresy have a very different presentation. Yin and yang goes a bit too far, but few should have trouble deciding which they prefer. The differences are easy enough to understand. If at all possible, seek out what it requires to listen to each in your rig. I don't think you can go wrong either way, and both deliver excellent value
Mike Sanders is super helpful... I saw a flash and no output on one of my Mid Monos , not wanting to turn it on before talking to Quicksilver, I called them and Mike answered. Turned out to be a bad phase splitter tube that took out a fuse, no other damage. Same thing happened with an output tube. Again, no damage to amp or speakers. His amps are tough and reliable, and support is top notch. Would buy another Quicksilver in a heartbeat.
Brother, I know exactly what you're going thru. I had a pair of Klips (Rf-7II) in my family room system for about 5 months. Da*n things gave me a headache every time I listened to them for more than a couple of hours (jazz, easy rock). I replaced them with a set of Legacy Audio Focus SE's and problem solved. The Focus is a speaker that sounds just as good at low volume as it does cranked up. Also, the wood work is beautiful, like high grade furniture, so the wife won't complain.
It's worth noting the Heresy is very revealing of changes in the system. Change the amp' s input tube or power tubes and the difference is not subtle. They really sing when driven with 40 watts of EL34 power... KT66 was good, KT88 was better but the Klipsch with EL34 had the best tone.
The new Forte III supposedly has a groovy new midrange driver/horn that people seem to like, but they're just too damn big for my tastes and I have 2 subs so the extra bass energy isn't necessary from the main speakers. One reason I wanted to try Heresys is the esthetics involved…they're smallish and less obtrusive than "tower" speakers and still toss a nice soundstage in front of me.
I have been a Klipsch fan / owner for many years, and have modified many sets of, mostly Heritage models, for me, and others. JBL, Altec, and others as well. Obviously, I am biased. My question though, if I missed it in this thread, is : why the change from the Ohms to the Heresy ? As mapman pointed out, they are as different as two might be. The Ohms provided very good background music. Based on the " set up " of the Ohms, I would have felt they spread the sound around the couch / listening area better. I would have tried a better amp, ( and, this is from a Klipsch guy ). I am glad brooklynluke is happy.
OP: OHM speakers are pretty much set ’em and forget ’em, as you already likely know. They are not fussy nor do they require "exotic" wires and/or special electronics to sound good. Most recently I had a pair of Micros which sounded pretty good with a basic Onkyo receiver but spectacular with my excellent tube gear.
With regard to cosmetics, I think their smaller models are some of the the most visually unobtrusive speakers out there. Perhaps you can point this out to your spouse. :)
I don’t think there are many speakers which will sound their best when placed on either side of a sofa. I could be wrong.
One speaker which has intrigued me is the Larsens, which are designed to be placed up against the front wall. They are cosmetically appealing and unobtrusive as well. Not inexpensive, however, and like most speakers will benefit from better electronics. Good luck!
very different from my experience with these speakers. maybe try the rp260f if you want more bass. a tube amp will not give you more bass. solid state amps do bass better than tubes. I listen to these speakers at low volumes all the time. use good copper speaker wire- 14 guage is good. i use these often with a 30wpc amp, a 20wpc amp, and a 45 wpc amp- solid state, tube, and hybrid amps. the rp260f will give more bass if that is what you must have.
The RP and RF series speakers don’t hold a candle to the Heritage line with music playback (I’ve owned both). It’s not difficult to figure out why. The RP/RF series don’t possess the midrange horn. Their porting also sacrifices bass speed and definition for sheer output. Those speakers are really intended for home theater use.
"The RP and RF series speakers don’t hold a candle to the Heritage line with music playback"
@helomech,
Can't say much about the RP line since I have never heard them but some, specifically the RF-63's and RB-75's do a jam up job with music. I have owned my 63's for almost 10 years and just can't seem to pull the trigger to "upgrade" to another model or brand. They are very musical and do a lot of things right. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Klipsch Heritage but these 63's are dynamic, fast and punchy, detailed, and just smooth from top to bottom. I just can't find much wrong with them with any genre of music.
I listened to the Forte, i thought they sounded great but they were too large for my room due to needing some distance from the wall. The Heresy were the perfect size for my room, can go close to the wall, roll off higher than my room mode which is a nasty peak around 40 hz. Its why I sold my last floorstanders and used monitors and a sub. I had a pair of Klipsch CF4 and they were awesome but I could never get floorstanders to sound good in this room.
Its for those reasons that I think the Heresys work so well in my room. They have decent enough low frequency response that I can turn my sub off at night, but with the sub on they rock.
I never really thought speaker break in was noticeable, I thought it was more of your ears acclimating to a new presentation of the music. Maybe it's a little of both, but right before selling my monitors, I hooked them back up and while they were great speakers I have no regrets swapping them out for the Heresys.
I've had a pair of the Ohm 1000's for a number of years now, and find them to be one of the most satisfying speakers around. The soundstage remains intact, even at lower volumes, and does not shrink into the speakers. They fill the room with sound at just about any volume'
The other plus that I notice is that even though they do all music beautifully, they excel in the reproduction of piano and acoustic guitar.
Please don't let these sit in a closet unused. Set them up in another room with a mid priced receiver and continue to enjoy their special qualities.
My experience with the RF/RP series was that they were competitive with other floorstanders in their price range such as Polks and B&Ws. Their bass extension was better than some of the competition, but their upper frequency performance was a bit harsh. They were the reason I was so apprehensive to try the Heresys. IMO, these model lines have a very different tonal balance. The RF series have respectable bass speed for an average floorstander but it can’t match that of the Heresy’s acoustic suspension + paper woofer design. This is what allows the Heritage line to produce such a convincing kick drum with realistic speed. For speakers that need to do double duty in a home theater/stereo setup, the RF/RPs are the better option. JMO.
Hello everyone, I am from Croatia, Zagreb city and I am a longtime fan of Klipsch. First to report, my English is weak and I use a lot with google translation. So there may be a lot of mistakes or misunderstandings :) Following an interesting topic about Klipsch Heresy lll, I want to give my opinion. Yesterday, over eBay, I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy lll and of course I'm interested in all I can hear about them. One of my friends has these H3s and drives them with 3.5W (per channel) monoblocks . With great easiness, effortlessly, these weak blocks are doing a magnificent job. Speakers are on the floor. In my case, because of the items in the room, H3 will have to stand on the stands and I'm expecting low tone (bass) problems. From my friend, Set up sounds awesome. I've never heard anything better ( HI-FI fair does not count). The room is average (approx. 5 x 4 meters). There is no need for a subwoofer. My current set up (Klipsch Palladium P37F with 12.5W monoblocks) is two or three times more expensive than Set up of my friend but his set up plays two or three times better, more musiclike, than mine :( So I had to order Klipsch Heresy lll, to see how it would work in my room. I'm expecting speakers for ten days and I'll report the result (with tears or laughing:). Regards to everyone !!!
Welcome to the Forum. I had no trouble understanding your post.
Some have reported improvements from using such stands, but others seem to prefer the floor risers. I use mine with the floor risers. They do lack a bit of soundstage height, but otherwise, I don't detect any shortcomings. The bass is plenty powerful within the speaker's limits. They do perform best with tubes, so you're all set in that regard. Please report back with your findings.
I don't believe your Rega Brio is an issue - it is a very fine integrated in that price point. And the power is enough for the Klipsch. I tend to fell they are not broken in yet. You may be one of the type who does not like the sound of horns.
Hi, Heresy 3 arrived today! I still did not connect them yet, because I'm waiting for them to adapt to room temperature. I just put them in the starting (desired) position. Tomorrow morning, I will put them in the drive :) The picture shows that my couch goes a little into the sound field (that's something I can not avoid, which is why I have considered the stand option).
I might have said this before but I don't think the Heresy IIIs "sound" like horns really, but maybe that's just me (I use horn loaded speakers in my studio, pro mixing gigs, and have owned a lot of speakers including Altec A7s years ago…now that's horny!). I've been experimenting with placement a little, and ongoing sub integration tweaking. I read something Paul McGowan said about speaker placement where he suggested putting the speakers further apart from each other to tame possible upper bass issues, and that inspired me to do exactly that. Moved 'em about 8 inches further out and they sound simply better. Thanks Paul.
I always have an itch to try different speakers in my second system and I might scratch it again soon. Heresy III is a leader for next speaker up. IT would work well in my family room especially with the Klipsch sub there, 60 w/ch amp, also WAF, and something different and fun. I’ve heard them and was very pleasantly surprised. They made me a fan in a short audition. OR maybe Thiel? Harbeth? ELAC? Who knows.
I placed mine a little further apart than my last speakers and the Heresys have a huge soundstage and surprisingly good imaging.
I feel part of the reason they work well in this room is because they don't produce much bass below 60hz which helps avoid room modes which are centered around 40Hz. But the bass they do produce is excellent with great pitch definition , no speaker I've owned reproduces an upright bass like they do. A sub is a must , but overdo it and it ruins their sound. It took a while to find a crossover point and slope that didnt muddy their low end.
Hi, Heresy 3 arrived today! I still did not connect them yet, because I'm waiting for them to adapt to room temperature. I just put them in the starting (desired) position. Tomorrow morning, I will put them in the drive :) The picture shows that my couch goes a little into the sound field (that's something I can not avoid, which is why I have considered the stand option).
Tomorrow starts burning. We'll see where this leads. I'll come up with the first results. Regards
Thanks for sharing the pics. I would move them just forward of your tower speakers if you can. You also might consider putting an absorption panel on the left wall. You shouldn't have to worry about reflections as much with the horn drivers, but I think a wall treatment would still yield some improvement.
Here I am :) To start the story, I'm very happy with the first results. In the last two days I listened to H3 about 12 hours long. I got up a hundred times and moved them for a few centimeters in all directions. I was looking for the best possible sound stage. Unfortunately, I do not have much room for maneuver due to the conditions. Maybe another move brings happiness. I came to the conclusion that H3 remains on the floor. So far none of the stands. I will consider it later. The couch, which goes a little in the sound field, make not visible - audible disturbances. But if I made the speakers even more forward, then the couch would be a problem. In that case, the couch would be near, very much in the sound field. As for the left side wall, I intend to put an absorber, because of Palladiuma tower speaker, because it is too close to the wall. Thank you all for listening to my sweet troubles. To be continued:)
@grinccaffe Welcome and very cool looking system! May I ask who made your preamp/amp combo? Also are you going to be running the H3's and Palladiums both or can you pull the Palladiums out to give the H3's more breathing room?
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