I also recently upgraded from a Bluesound Node, which I’d been using happily for about 2 years. Agreed that it is a stunning value for what it does.
I dipped my toe in the water with a used Aurender N100H going into my Chord TT2 and M Scaler. Living with that for about a month I decided to jump in with both feet. I originally thought I’d go for a used Aurender N20, retaining the Chord stack. I’d read about the Grimm MU1, but wasn’t seriously considering it until my dealer said that the Grimm has so upended that aspect of the digital market as to render the competition moot. That may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I wound up getting the MU2 and after successfully selling my Chord TT2 and M Scaler, I feel I’ve truly achieved an end game digital front end in a single box. If you’re looking for a one and done step, I highly recommend the MU2.
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For example, in my system I have:
server: Mac Mini M2, dedicated for storage of CD library and to run Roon.
streamer: Denafrips Arce.
dac: Chord M-scaler and Qutest.
Whatever you choose I would highly recommend burning your CD library to a server and using Roon to manage it. Amazing user interface, improved sound quality, plus it is really magical how Roon shuffles my library based on the last album or track I played, so I can enjoy hearing forgotten parts of my library seemingly mixed expertly together without me having to create a playlist.
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@jmrobbie
Are you a Roon user or an anti-Roon user or somewhere in between? Are you wanting to use the inboard dac of your Mac or external?
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@jimrrobbie1 I’ll try to make this easy to understand
The analog signal is changed (sampled) to a digital signal using by using a translator (ADC - Analog to Digital Converter) for file storage and delivery purposes.
So for you to play digital music, you’ll need 3 things:
- Music file source (CDs, server, data from a streaming service uses servers)
- Delivery method - streamers
- Translation back to analog (DAC= Digital to Analog Converter)
To summarize, you need a server (somewhere, could be at a streaming service), streamer, and a DAC.
Some audio components have multi functions like my streamer+DAC. Some components may have all 3 functions. Usually, if you plan to upgrade, it’s best to keep the functions separate.
Other “optional” sonic enhancements include upgrading power supplies, clocks, usb and Ethernet in-line filters, audiophile switches, optical isolation, etc.
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btw, here’s a little “how to” from a few years ago. Concepts are still relevant:
how to stream
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A lot to unpack here. For example, do you want to have your CD collection on a NAS connected to your network, with separate streamer and DAC? Or do you want to have an all-in-one solution; these tend to be pricey, however, and then you’re stuck with their choice of DAC forever.
Do you want to separate the software side of the equation by running Roon on your server? That’s what I do. If you’re interested in Roon, but want to get some experience of its efficacy (vs.Bluesound for example), you could load it up on your computer for a free trial and use its software while using the bluesound hardware as your streamer/dac; bluesound is roon ready. If you like it, you can then focus your attention on the streamer and dac choices without paying up for somebody else’s proprietary software (e.g., Aurender, Innuos, etc.).
But $18k for your digital side is a hefty budget - in my experience, you can get closer to SOTA performance for less $ on digital vs analog. Regardless, there are some on this forum whose beliefs/experiences suggest that you need to spend a material portion of your budget - relative to the DAC - on the streamer; you’ve already heard from several of them. There are others, like me, whose beliefs/experiences suggest that if you spend more than a relatively small amount of $ (i.e., <$2,000) on a streamer, you may be spending your money on features that have little to do with sound quality. And I agree with @deep_333 re reclocking as unnecessary (unless your streamer and dac combo has a jitter problem, which is highly unlikely anywhere near your budget).
Bottom line: IMHO, the DAC is far and away your most important decision. At your budget, I’d listen to as many choices as I could in a relatively controlled environment. Only then would I worry about server/streamer options.
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@deep_333 Once more an individual touting the idea a Particular Source Material is ubiquitous in how all who experience the should accept it.
Individuals are Individuals - Their Preferences are their preferences - What is ones attraction is another's repellent.
Your claim that " The 24bit Hires studio master is the highest quality medium available, when available ". Is in no way a recommendation that will have all who encounter it used as Source Material, will want to continue listening to it in place of of other familiar Source Mediums.
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After hearing a Visitors brought along recently released to the Market CDT > DAC in their own system, as well as the CDT > System owners DAC, has now as good as abandoned the Streaming Source as the main Source and replaced it with CD as the Source.
The 24bit Hires studio master is the highest quality medium available, when available. Streaming it from a NAS is a surefire guarantee and it beats out redbook cds and cd transports. The only exception is sacd or bluray audio, which are both fidelity competitors, i suppose. However, very few artists still offer you a sacd or bluray.
I simply can’t comprehend why anyone would botch that pristine studio master, put it on a redbook cd or viny and pay more for the latter ...(Some odd form of medium loyalty, i suppose).
Further, buying that hires studio master provides permanent ownership and supports the artist (instead of renting it on tidal, qobuz). Qobuz, for example, will sell you the official hires studio masters for less than 10 bucks a piece, when you have the sublime subscription (~15 dollars/month). That would be ~1/2 the cost of a botched redbook cd or 1/4th to 1/6th the cost or more of botched vinyl. The highest quality medium can be purchased for a lower cost than the botched mediums because there is no material/fab cost associated with the former (it is just a file).
If one is perceiving that the redbook CD from a cd transport is sounding better, there is something wrong with the execution of his hires digital chain.
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My analog side of my system...McIntosh 12000 integrated (tube preamp with ss amp), McIntosh MCD 600 SACD player, VPI classic signature tt - fatboy arm & shyla cartridge, PS audio phono preamp, nakamichi dragon cassette deck, La Scala AL5 speakers, Tributaries cables & interconnects, and then the Blue-node to stream. My desktop/den system is a Hegel 190 integrated with Kef LS50meta.
Again - want a digital path to complete my main system....just hesitant to dive in as the digital side seems to change so quickly...and I have no experience. I like the idea of ripping my CDs to a databank as suggested. Don’t want to fuse (too much) or "refine" the digital path down the road. I like where my where my analog system is...except for the possibility of trying/upgrading the phonostage...the never-ending rabbit hole. Not to go into the politics of analog vs digital...I enjoy the "act" of placing a record on the platter...diving into the $5 dollar used record bin for albums of my youth I still do not own, and even cleaning/prepping the LP before the needle drops. That said - I am looking forward to putting together & completing a digital path/side. Surprised how good the little Blue node is for the pricepoint what it brings to the table = so much at a push of a button.
Appreciate everyone’s insight,
JR
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Esoteric N01 XD would be perfect!
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Given what you’re looking for I’d recommend looking at the Innuos Zenith. It offers excellent performance and has a built-in CD drive so you can just simply rip all your CDs directly into it rather than messing with external drives, etc. Also important is their Sense app that gets top marks for usability and sound quality and is constantly being updated for better performance via easy firmware updates. Last, Innuos offers excellent customer support so if you have any questions/issues down the road you’re in good hands. If it was me I’d also add something like a Denafrips Hermes DDC that employs an OCXO clock and also opens up using other connection possibilities to a DAC, most notably a potentially superior i2S connection if the DAC accepts it. Considering performance, convenience, ease of use, and customer support this could be a very attractive option and still leaves you over $10k in your budget for a DAC.
Which gets to the DAC. That’s a very personal choice based on what sound characteristics you’re looking for so not knowing that I can’t make any meaningful recommendations. At your budget I’d be looking at Bricasti, Meitner, Weiss, T+A, and Lampizator (if you’re open to tubes) among others. Hope this helps, and best of luck.
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@jmrrobbie1 What is the rest of your system and please especially share your preamp and phono stage? What kind of sound are you looking for?
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I use a Melco N 100 NAS. I bought Melco Optical disc player to use as a ripper (it can also be used as a CD player) but it will accept other optical rippers. Since I have thousands of CDs I also bought an additional Melco storage unit.
The N100 will also play music, usb only. The Melco app isn’t great so I use mConnect. You can also play Tidal and Qobuz streaming services.
I added a Cambridge Audio CXN streamer because of its facility with podcasts and Internet Radio, but most importantly because it adds AirPlay and Chromecast. I use the latter for Apple Music and a boutique streaming service for historical recordings. The CA doesn’t have internal storage but works well with Melco serving as a NAS
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@jmrrobbie1 Stated " I will be mostly streaming but use my CD player about 20 % of the time...open to ripping my 2000+ CD collection into a data bank....pros/cons of this...I have no idea? I have come to embrace the simplicity of the streaming path,,,simple, easy, choice at the push of a button. Looking at different options - can not believe some of the cost/price points...wow?? "
Firstly referencing my own experiences had in this area, and reining then in to ones had using my own system.
With the DAC that is now in use, CD is used much more than the Vinyl Source, the End Sound is extremely enjoyable. When doing A/B comparisons of same Albums on CD vs Vinyl, it was the DAC in use now that created the condition that when either medium was able to play on for a short period of time, there was not a want developing to put on the other.
CD today has proved a excellent Source and one that keeps the Cartridge from use, meaning longer periods are now to be had before concerning oneself about costly replacements.
There is enough evidence on the Forum and others to suggest ripped CD's into FLAC or WAV files will be as good as CD, even if replayed from a particular type if set up for a Laptop or PC.
I have embraced the concept of Streaming as a Source for the same points you have raised, as well as the ease of attaining access to a Vast Library of Recordings.
The part I have difficulty with is the idea of Hiring the Music, I never used Record or CD Libraries when I was able to easily walk into a Local Library and do this.
The other part I have difficulty with is the remuneration to the individuals producing the music content. For some half a million down loads are required to remunerate the artist to the same level 100 Hard Medium Sales will generate.
For that reason I attempt to buy Five Albums per Year from New Artists whether from Kick Starter or their Merch' Sales Portals, last resort to buy the usual on line methods, even though this is the most user friendly if a quality issue is discovered and a return of item is wanted to occur.
My experiences had can't visualise where there is a Streaming Source to be found at monies within your Budget that will be Parity with a well thought out CD Source or Vinyl Source.
Recently an individual I know who has very nice Vinyl Source, who has invested numerous years of their time developing a Streaming Source, and are of the View there is not a betterment to be had in relation in how close they perceived it had advanced toward being Parity with the Vinyl Source. After hearing a Visitors brought along recently released to the Market CDT > DAC in their own system, as well as the CDT > System owners DAC, has now as good as abandoned the Streaming Source as the main Source and replaced it with CD as the Source.
I can only recommend that a home trial is sought when the final shortlist is assembled.
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I am a little bit into the weeds here... My digital knowledge/background is - how do you say ...less than zero. Speak to me as you "would a young child ...or a Golden Retriever". Digital path...ethernet - streamer - Dac/clock - to my preamp...is this correct??? The clock portion – I am at a loss…??? My experience/purchases with used or "b" stock has not been positive; prefer new with a great warranty & exceptional customer service. Several of the paths mentioned have good/great reviews. I am retired and have put this money aside to finalize my system...it is a lot of $$ for me personally, but will match/complete my system. I will travel to hear the system and make comparisons. To simplify... a one box/complete system or separates? The price point is a stretch...so want do it right...don’t want to hassle with upgrading. I will be mostly streaming but use my CD player about 20 % of the time...open to ripping my 2000+ CD collection into a data bank....pros/cons of this...I have no idea? I have come to embrace the simplicity of the streaming path,,,simple, easy, choice at the push of a button. Looking at different options - can not believe some of the cost/price points...wow?? Looking at a quality streamer, a great/exceptional (very exceptional) DAC/clock, interconnects/cables that match, easy user interface, reliable, well-made/designed, reliable warranty, great customer service, on-line upgrades, and most important musical equivalent to my analog side.... Am I asking alot????
Step a) Get a high quality drive for ripping all your CDs such as the Pioneer unit below. Install it on your PC and use it to rip all your cds. Don’t use some crappy drive to rip the CDs.
Step b) Set up a NAS (Network Attached Storage) for your house. You can put all your ripped cd files into such a NAS. The streamer will stream all your files contained in your NAS and your NAS can be physically sitting in any room of the house.
You can also buy HIRES official studio masters (digital albums i.e. digital files) and put it on your NAS for permanent ownership (like you had permanent ownership of your cds) i.e. In this case, you won’t be renting your music through streaming services like tidal, qobuz, etc on a monthly basis. You can however use such services to discover new music. If there’s a album you like, you can buy the hires album from qobuz (even a official studio master) for 10 bucks or so and support the artist better.
Streaming such files/studio masters from your NAS is the highest fidelity you can obtain.
The streamers i mentioned in earlier comment will also do your rental services like tidal, qobuz, etc...which is what most guys do (the easier thing.. get rental access to millions of albums...buy and forget).
P.S. Why are you worrying about "clocks"?! The clock’s inside your DAC and a good dac will have a good clock...don’t worry about clocks and never use any external clocks (that some guys may try to sell you).
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I am a little bit into the weeds here... My digital knowledge/background is - how do you say ...less than zero. Speak to me as you "would a young child ...or a Golden Retriever". Digital path...ethernet - streamer - Dac/clock - to my preamp...is this correct??? The clock portion – I am at a loss…??? My experience/purchases with used or "b" stock has not been positive; prefer new with a great warranty & exceptional customer service. Several of the paths mentioned have good/great reviews. I am retired and have put this money aside to finalize my system...it is a lot of $$ for me personally, but will match/complete my system. I will travel to hear the system and make comparisons. To simplify... a one box/complete system or separates? The price point is a stretch...so want do it right...don’t want to hassle with upgrading. I will be mostly streaming but use my CD player about 20 % of the time...open to ripping my 2000+ CD collection into a data bank....pros/cons of this...I have no idea? I have come to embrace the simplicity of the streaming path,,,simple, easy, choice at the push of a button. Looking at different options - can not believe some of the cost/price points...wow?? Looking at a quality streamer, a great/exceptional (very exceptional) DAC/clock, interconnects/cables that match, easy user interface, reliable, well-made/designed, reliable warranty, great customer service, on-line upgrades, and most important musical equivalent to my analog side.... Am I asking alot????
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Would appreciate experienced feedback for those with a complete digital chain ( streamer, DAC, clock?, & cables/interconnects) - total package under $18K...
Aavik S-180 streamer: $7200
Aavik D-180 DAC: $7200
Total = $ 14,400
Balance: $3600 for AXXESS ethernet, digital and analog IC cables
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My Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty Streaming DAC, along with my Roon Nucleus Plus music server did the trick for me. Once I was able to find the right digital setup, one that produced the kind of sound quality that I was searching for, I quickly sold off my cd player and my turn table. For the past few years, I've streamed all my music exclusively. I'll probably never spin another cd or record album ever again in life. Happy listening.
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Aqua hifi lascala is a killer dac
And it is fully upgradable an it has tubes for that magical midrange
Combined with a432evo Aeon music server and you have a
Digital front end which rivals realy good analog
We setup that combo vs a 25k analog rig and every one thought the digital sounded as good
DAVE AND Troy
AUDIO INTELLECT nj
Aqua and 432evo dealers
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I love my Aurender N200. It replaced a Vault 2i which I still use in my second system.
Your budget demands listening to DACs first hand. This is a product segment where you are splitting hairs as the price increases. You really need to love the sound of the DAC or any money invested on the streamer is moot
I bought my DAC first, used it with the Vault for a while and got a trade plus cash deal I could not pass on the N200. Support has been first rate. Unmatched in my experience.
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@OP - An Esoteric N-05XD may be within your budget, or even a pre-owned N-01 as some people will be trading up to the recently released SE version. It can be used directly as a streamer and is properly certified for use with Roon.
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Having been a Vinyl Die Hard for most on my time with a Audio System. Where through out that time I did not rest on laurels or knock before having an in front of experience. I travelled many miles and met with many, whilst seeking out experiences that would lead me to the place my Vinyl Source is at today.
In relation to Digital, I have not too long ago, added a CD Source into my system, and attempted to learn about what Streaming Data could offer as a Source to be used, where the devices experienced have been up to £6K in value.
Additional to the seeking out Streaming experiences, I have become familiarised with a Selection of CDP's and CDT's used for CD replays along with a wider ranger of DAC's used with all the above methods to produce a Digital Signal.
Firstly I have not been impressed with Streamed Source Material to the place where I believe it is a Parity with both CD and Vinyl Sources. Recent experiences had resulted in my being impressed very much to the point I have a liking for Streamed Data, and can see a place for it to be used, but not as the go to Source where sound quality is the concern.
My experiences have left me with the view, after having limited encounters with CD Sources up to a Value of £5K, is that CDP's used standalone in my experiences had. Have been mainly second to CDT's, where sound quality is being assessed. There are a couple of exceptions where the Standalone CDP in a particular system have been a Parity in the impression made when compared to alternate equipment used for CD replays.
DAC's are in my assessments of ones experienced in demo's, are as different as Phonostages in how they can influence the end sound.
I am familiar with both SS and Valve DAC designs, I am also familiar with DIY produced to Branded with a Maximum Value of approx' £3K.
There are DAC's experienced and I have assessed as being very intrusive, pushing the end sound hard in ones face, over revealing of details and not very coherent across the frequencies.
There are the Anti Thesis to the above, where the assessment is the DAC is a Slouch, and creates a end sound where one can sink into the listening seat and have 40 winks if wanted. Again seemingly rolled off in the expansion of the frequencies, maybe a little too biased towards the Bass, not being coherent across the frequencies.
As always there is the in between and demo's where the coherence across the frequencies is attractive, where the end sound can tweak ones listening posture to the point they are edge of seat or relaxed in the seat.
To achieve my ideal balance of detail retrieval and being extremely impressed by the end sound, especially in Parity to the Vinyl Source, a CDT with a Bespoke Built Valve DAC was the route I took.
My suggestion is to be extremely ruthless in ones evaluation of a DAC, where if it does not impress abandon the model with immediacy.
The Digital Section of Forums is filled up with posts about short term satisfaction, with DACs being made known to be up for exchange.
The Honeymoon periods being very short lived and the DAC has stated farting in the Bed 🤣.
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An Aurender N200 and an MSB Discrete DAC would be $18,500 and hard to beat at that price. I have the MSB with Aurender N20.
The DAC is more critical than the streamer. Put your money there.
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I had a Grimm mu2 in my system for a while. I felt it’s sound quality appropriate to the cost, although I think (separate audition) the Aurrender N20 sounds slightly better (lower noise floor) and the fit and finish on the Aurender is far better. The physical operation of the Aurrender is also much better, that wheel on the top of the Grimm is confusing and feels more like a gimmick than a serious control..
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OP look into the new Bricasti M1 that recently came out. Or any of the Bricasti dacs would be an end game.
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Just curious, are you planning for streaming, local file playback or cd with transport? My system is not in the same tax bracket as yours, but I found a good similarity in sound with a tube buffered r2r NOS dac playing local FLAC files off my network (server pc -> streamer Pi -> DAC). That should hopefully mimic the natural analog sound you're used to (and basing your opinions from). Combine that style of DAC with a good streamer, spend good $ on usb or spdif rca cable (highly recommend Hapa Audio Aero cable for this) and leave a few $ for an ethernet cable. @ghdprentice is right with his analysis that a good digital system is almost $/$ the same as a good analog one once you get above the entry to mid-fi market. I've been slowly upgrading each side and finally have them close in performance (analog slightly better still) so I know the struggle of adopting both sides into the same system.
Hope my rambling helps,
-Lloyd
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What about dipping your toes into a used DCS Bartok….? There’s a bunch on the market now as the APEX version just came out. Really great sounding DAC…!!
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Wow...ok...after reading the reviews....the Grimm MU2 would be an end game to my digital side. Anyone have this in their system that can provide pros/cons or likes/dislike. Anyone listen to a side to side comparison to Aurenders top system? In one review this was good to see:
Driven to keep improving, Grimm Audio works actively to provide ongoing updates. Whenever they improve the sound quality or enhance the feature set of the MU2, these improvements are offered to all existing customers via software or hardware updates (when possible). Software updates are free and can be installed automatically via the update server.
Finally, in case of a malfunction, the Grimm Audio Support Team is dedicated to getting you to enjoy the music again within the shortest timeframe possible. Grimm Audio offer a 5 year limited warranty to customers who fill in their warranty card.
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Grimm Audio MU2 + lifetime Roon subscription.
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You have chosen a good time to add a digital end. I have been trying to get digital to sound as good as analog for… well since digital began. A few years ago I was finally able to do that. You can see my systems under my ID.
Great idea of one and done. Has that ever happened with analog? Ok, anyway.
Definitely Aurender streamer and a good quality DAC. Knowing nothing about your preferences I would say an Aurender N250 and an Audio Research DAC 9. Good combination of great detail and musical. An Aurrender N20 would be even better, but that would be over your budget.
Streamers and DACs are equally important, so both must be good quality. If you could get a used N20 and a used high quality DAC you could be in business. FYI, I found equal sound quality between my analog leg and digital required carefully chosen components for each leg which ultimately cost the same… $ analog leg = $ digital leg.
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