I'm a little worried if you go all off tubes at once you really won't be happy.
What about a small integrated tube setup?
What about a small integrated tube setup?
Digital integrated alternatives to SET tube system
Hello,
Recently I have been contemplating moving over to an all in one digital set up for my front end such as the Lyngdorf 2170 or Devialet 200 etc. I have read the entire 2170 thread.
I currently run a tube pre to a Line Magnetic 508 (upgraded tubes on both) to Audionote AN-E Lx/He speakers (ANK kit 003). My source is mainly digital consisting of an Aries Mini running USB to my DAC. All interconnects are solid core silver.
I absolutely love the sound of my current set up but I don’t have any local dealer support or anywhere to test tubes etc. Any time I hear something "off" in my system, I’m reminded of this fact. Also the convenience factor of an all in one would be great and I’m sure my wife would agree!
I’m really looking for something that will sound amazing with my Audionotes. Most reviews I’ve found on these types of amps don’t really speak much on using them with high sensitivity speakers which makes sense in most cases. I do of course realize I will be giving up certain SET/tube characteristics.
I really like the Room Correction feature on the Lyndorf as well as having a few different EQ settings to play with, although they are "pre set".
Caveats:
1) Price $4600 US or $6000 Can used.
2) Must play nice with high sensitivity speakers and maintain dynamics/soundstage at lower volumes.
2) USB input would be a plus.
3) May or may not have an internal DAC.
4) I don’t like a lean/thin sound or truncated highs.
Please give me your recommendations and thoughts. Thanks.
48 responses Add your response
I have never used tubes so I can't make any comparisons but I recently bought a Micromega M100 with room correction. It has everything you mentioned you were looking for plus it has a wired ethernet connection and can stream your digital library it has Tidal and by years end Qobuz integrated in the app. Just another one you can research not sure how tube like it sounds. |
If you want to do a trial to see if you could enjoy SS before going all in, perhaps you should consider the Dayens Ampino Integrated. It's 25 WPC and shares many characteristics of single ended amplifiers. It retails for $560 US so you could dabble without going off the deep end. Worst case scenario you have a decent backup amp if something does go wrong with your current amps. Moving away from single ended sound is tough. I did so for a while but once I got MastersounD, I realized I simply don't want to go back to SS again. I COULD do it, but it wouldn't be as satisfying. |
My recommendation is try out 2170 as all out dac and amplifier on your speakers. Also you can use pre out of 2170 to feed LM 508 SET for comparison. Then you can choose which one you like. Or you may move between them depending the type of music. You may like 2170 on big scale orchestra and the other on small vocal music. I consider trying the same option although I am more inclined to 3400 with large space. |
Contact Tommy O'Brien at the Digital Amplifier Company and ask about a Stereo Maraschino. I have one on 100db horns and am thrilled with the results. Clean, clear, no etch or grain, with a little meat on the bones tone for great measure. The 30v power supply puts 25w@8ohm and will mate perfectly well with your AN speakers. The STM handles the delicacy of solo violin and deep thumping bass with aplomb. Voices are rendered to perfection as well. I have had a number of digital amps and the DAC products leave them all in the dust! https://www.cherryamp.com/stereo-maraschino-stm |
I have been using it with Paradigm 85f speakers which I recently sold. It worked wonderful with them, actually the best they have ever sounded to me but having recently moved they were a bit to large for my new place. I have some Ohm 2000's on order. You can use the Micromega as a pre as well it has XLR outs you can hook to a power amp. It is a streamer as well though you already have one, it connectes to my DLNA server , tidal, radio stations, Qobuz by the US launch, the DAC is an AK 4490 the same used in some esoteric/teac models. I admit I'm surprised by this little amp it does so much and sounds wonderful IMO. I still think with the big change you're considering it would be good to try and listen to as many different things as you can before leaping. |
@audiothesis @shkong78 @jond My mind is pretty much made up that I will be leaving tubes. I don't mind buying gear and selling if it doesn't work out for me. Losing a couple bucks here and there for in house "demos" is fine by me. I guess deep down I'm ready for a sound change as well. Although I don't want to part with my current speakers. Thanks for the input. |
I run a Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 and Art Audio Diavolo SET 300b Tube Amplifier with a Luxman AS-55 amplifier switcher through its preamp output and love choosing between class d solid-state and SET tube amplification. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath 🛀🏿 water. Have your cake and eat it. Solid-state on big music, SET sound on more intimate pieces. It's great having choices. |
I am a big fan of low-powered tube gear. While I wouldn't say that the First Watt amps sound like low-powered tube gear, I like their sound more than any other solid state amps I've heard. I don't think they sell any integrated amps, so you would have to find a linestage or go without one. First watt makes linestages, but, I have not heard any of these. Another brand of solid state that I would guess (I haven't heard the combination) would be nice to try is Ayre. Although Audio Note sells their speakers mostly to people who are fans of tube gear, their speakers will work perfectly well with any kind of amplification. If anything, the warmer, more harmonically saturated sound of their speakers should compensate a bit for the sins of thinner sounding solid state. |
Hi guys, sorry for the tardiness! I will just address these responses as a whole as responding to each one is quite time consuming. But I very much appreciate all the feedback. So as of lately, I’m hooked on the Devialets. I have a friend whom I greatly respect his audio opinions who has run one on his AN-E’s in the past. He also came from SET amplification. He’s since moved onto entirely new set ups since but his input on this combo is promising. They are also drop dead sexy, easy to use and cleans up a lot of extra equipment. I also really appreciate the multitude of adjustability with these units (Speaker Active Matching, tone/balance controls, different firmware updates that can change the power levels/sonic characteristics etc) A little bit of background on my current system and why I think this combo may in fact work for me. It took me a lot of time, equipment and money to end up with the Audionotes. (I’ve had Spatial M3 TS, Tekton DI’s etc) But now that I’ve found the AN sound, I’m staying put. @larryi You hit the nail on the head here. I’m thinking the synergy of a SS amplifier may work quite nicely with my speakers. The journey with the AN speakers has been an almost backwards approach to my previous experience. It seems most people are looking to tame down or remove any glare/gloss/edge/bite from their treble response and match up their components/cables accordingly to achieve this. I have liked what the AN’s have done from day one but have been slowly trying to add back some bite/edge to the treble response. These speakers are highly detailed but a touch smooth on the top end for my liking (My speakers have the silver VC’s and copper wiring) I have swapped over my interconnects to silver solid core with excellent results. I could still rewire my speakers with silver internally or go with silver speaker wires vs my copper ones. But I’m thinking a SS amp may provide me with the top end I desire. May be a great synergy here. There are going to be very obvious trade offs and a completely different sonic character. But that’s half the fun. I do also have a JL E110 sub that could come out to play if I feel my bass response is too controlled/thin vs my tubes. The mid range magic will be the biggest adjustment for me I’m sure. But it will also be a relief to just set it and forget it and stop trying to over analyze and troubleshoot every little sound change with my tubes. Sorry for rambling!
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I have the Danish built Gato Audio 400-S integrated amp And could not be happier it is not only a work of art to look at it is custom throughout nothing off the shelf, including a very respectable Burr Brown Dac. tons of power on demand with a active line stage. All new units will be internet ready 300wpc -8ohms roughly $6500. A lot to offer for the money.it sure has a bit of Tube character warmth as well as very good image depth ,and soundstage width. |
I ran a set of Harbeth 40.1s with a Devialet 120 and Lyngdorf 2170 in the same room/system side by side for a couple of weeks. It was really no contest for my rig and room. The Lyngdorf was really considerably better. The real difference maker was and remains the Room Perfect room correction Lyngdorf employs. The 2170 lifted the performance of the Harbeth speakers to another level top to bottom. This was my experience in a dedicated music room with substantial acoustic room treatments. I later paired the Lyngdorf with speakers ranging from the effecient Living Voice OBX RW, AZ Crescendo, Tekton Double Impacts highly modified and the Dali Epicon 6s. The Lyngdorf paired wonderfully with each speaker and still remains in my system. Uncanny way of playing equally well at low and loud volume levels. Amazing how much noise is in our music that goes unnoticed until one uses a unit like the Lyngdorf 2170 or 3400. Lyngdorf’s SOTA room correction brought out the very best of each speaker in my listening spaces. I tried using the 2170 as a preamp/room correction device only with several tube amps, but each time the 2170 sounded better on its own. Keep in mind this is my subjective experience and preference. However, I love tube amps and preamps having owned and enjoyed all manner of them over the decades. OTLs, SETs, PP and SEPs. I find the 2170 with room correction optimized just sounds like music.....not like tubes, not like SS, not like Class D, not like Class A.........just enjoyable. |
I did the same thing recently, moving from a VAC integrated all tube to the Micromega M100. I had also used a 300B amp in the past. I’m very happy to have made the switch. Just turn it on and play music. No bias or warmup. And the M100 with the room correction sounds fantastic. I have fairly sensitive speakers (Silverline Sonatinas) and the M100 is warm and dynamic with great presence. I’ve heard the at the Devialet is brighter and thinner although I haven’t heard it personally. |
@mapman Thanks, Bel Canto seems to do no wrong when most people talk about them. @atmasphere I do have spares but I’ve had poor experiences purchasing tubes over the years already. Had a brand new power tube fail within a month or so. And a NOS Black Treasure flare up and die the first time I plunked it in. With these being matched pairs, it makes it harder to find another spare. I’m also finding the sound just doesn’t seem to be 100% consistent day to day. I’ll sometimes get flutter or static here or there, slightly shifting soundstage or things are good for a week at a time. Now days I’m having a hard time taking off my analytical hat and just being able to enjoy the music. And troubleshooting a pre amp/amp with 11 tubes in the system just doesn’t tickle my fancy any more and as they age it won’t get much better. Would be a different story if I was near a major center or in a circle of tube buddies. I very much appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I did end up making a deal on a used Devialet 200 yesterday. The price was right and I know someone with first hand experience with this exact set up. He also has experience with low power tubes, hybrids and the Lyngdorf 2170 running his Audionotes. So I can take some comfort that I may yet find happiness. If not, there’s lots of fish in the sea :) It will definitely take some time to transition out of the sound I’m used to. Thanks again everyone.
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I do have spares but I’ve had poor experiences purchasing tubes over the years already. Had a brand new power tube fail within a month or so. And a NOS Black Treasure flare up and die the first time I plunked it in. With these being matched pairs, it makes it harder to find another spare. I’m also finding the sound just doesn’t seem to be 100% consistent day to day. I’ll sometimes get flutter or static here or there, slightly shifting soundstage or things are good for a week at a time. Now days I’m having a hard time taking off my analytical hat and just being able to enjoy the music. And troubleshooting a pre amp/amp with 11 tubes in the system just doesn’t tickle my fancy any more and as they age it won’t get much better.I get all of that! Here are a few tips that makes this all go a lot easier! 1. Always buy tubes from a source that allows you to return them if defective. 2. As soon as you get the spares, run them in the system a few days to make sure they are good; then set them aside since they are spares. Now you know they are good. 3. If a channel acts up, the first thing to do is to swap the interconnect cable left for right going into the amps. If the problem moves, its the cable or the preamp. If it does not, its the amp or the speakers. Swap the speaker cables at the back of the amps to determine the latter; if the problem moves its the amps. 4. If you've sorted out what bit of equipment has a problem, then swap the tubes left for right and its pretty easy at that point to sort out the bad tube. 5. You can knock on tubes to find out if they are a source of static or microphonics. Some tubes can be so microphonic that rubbing them gently on the top is more effective. I'd like to say that you can find a solid state amp with the smoother more emotionally involving nature of tubes, but so far that has yet to be the case. I know you've had a lot of suggestions here and some are pretty good, and those amps will probably have tradeoffs with the one you have now. But if you find that they just don't have that 'something', that 'something' is probably emotional involvement with the music. This happens when the brain processes music in the limbic centers the way its supposed to- when things go awry then it processes music in the cerebral cortex and the emotional connection is vastly reduced! The main reason we lose that emotional connection has to do with distortion- tubes make far less of the distortions that the ear/brain system finds irritating (and also uses to sense sound pressure). Transistors make more of these distortions (higher ordered harmonics)- that is why they tend to sound brighter, even though on paper they have flat bandwidth... |
Honestly, you should look at an Accuphase Receiver running in Class A with or without a Dac card. That would be a perfect match where you can keep the warmth of your tubes but with even more bass control. I have borrowed my friends Devialet 140 expert pro and it is really a simple solution your wife will love. The current and control are amazing. I thought bass was bloated with the stock powercord (never a fan of audioquest) and swapped the cord to Purist Audio and then the amp was smooth as can be. The phono stage is really cool as you can adjust the loadings on the fly to see what sounds best and record noise is way reduced. I have run modified Tact equipment in the past and what i found is that it tended to lean it out to give you more pinpoint detail. When i say lean it out a double bass will pluck fast and accurate but the body of the double bass won’t resonate as much. so if that’s your thing worth a consideration. The amp was very nice, not like all the current ice/class D that are just boring. Right now I’m considering Devialet 440 Expert Pro or Line Magnetic 30watt Class A triode integrated to power my Rockport Aviors. Right now i have Theta Citadel 1.5 amps and Line Magnetic 518ia that I swap between. I do love SET/Triode but the heat here in Arizona makes my AC run non-stop The Aleph or First Watt Suggestions would not disappoint you and keep your tube preamp. |
@atmasphere All great tips for any tube users! I am excited to try out the Devialet once I get it home. Although I’m just getting home from work, then leaving the country for two weeks. Oh well, something to play with once I’m home. And I’ve already got my pre and power amp sold! @cytocycle Very much appreciate the suggestion. I have picked up a Devialet 200 for now. I am curious to see how the silver cables work in the system as the Audionotes tend to lean on the warmer/saturated sound without treble glare. May be a match made in heaven. If not, I've got 3 pairs of Audioquest Mackenzies to swap in for now. On another note, I couldn’t pass up a deal on a set of new LS50W’s and matching stands for a second system/bedroom. Lots of fun to be had when I get home.
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The 2170 (170 watts into 4 ohms) is more power than I ever needed with a butt load, yes that is a real measurement, of headroom and extra power. I mean a full butt load. That’s over 100 watts into the 6 ohm 40.1. No way one would ever need more unless they want to damage their ears and speakers. Them there are the facts. Period. I have owned more amps than most people even read about so I am not blowing smoke. Have you even tried the 2170 with the 40.1s ? If not, you really have no idea. Right? Quote from Stereophile “However, the M40.1’s plot of impedance magnitude and phase angle (fig.1) suggests that the Harbeth is easy to drive in terms of its demand for current. The impedance drops below 6 ohms only in the middle of the midrange, and then only for a short while; and while the electrical phase angle occasionally reaches extreme values, this is only when the impedance magnitude is high, ameliorating the drive difficulty. Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-m401-loudspeaker-measurements#KmIWZ4ssO4CXlipk.99” I point this out as the Lyngdorf 2170 has more than enough current to drive this speaker with ease in an average room. 30 amps of output current. The 3400 would also be a good match, but the 2170 at several thousand less is also up to the job. What’s more the 2170 plays this speaker in a way that makes it come alive at low to moderate volume levels. That is a wonderful reality also making it a great match with the 40.1. |
Hello guys and girls, I wanted to return to this thread to give my impressions on the Devialet 200/Audionote pairing. I'm very impressed with this amplifier in sound presentation as well as features. It took a few days to get accustomed to the sound compared to the SET rig. As soon as I took the tubes out of the system and got the Devialet dialed in, the sound took on a more "exciting" sound. The amount of resolution and detail on this amplifier is incredible. And paired with the excellent bass response, it feels like I've got more band width to play with now. The bass seems to play lower than the Line Mag but not as rounded. Works really well with the rest of this amp's presentation. Obviously the mid range is not as forward in the way a SET amp projects it. It is still very realistic but doesn't carry the human voice with quite the weight it once had. I feel like I've really struck gold here. With the synergy of the Audionotes being on the warm (ish) side with that tonal saturation, this amp brings out the best of them for my listening preferences. I've gained more air and reach on the top end with nothing bloated or exaggerated on the bottom. Very engaging with no hint of fatigue. A caveat, my speakers have silver voice coils with copper cables internal/external. Sound stage size is very comparable. May be a bit wider with a touch less depth, hard to say here. Height has actually increased. Anyways, very cool amp with great features and works splendidly with high sensitivity speakers such as Audionotes! |
