Devore or Audio Note or other sensitive speakers: wanting to listen in Denver

 From JA, Stereophile on the Wharfedale Diamond 225 speaker,

I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Wharfedale Diamond 225's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield responses. Wharfedale specifies the Diamond 225's voltage sensitivity as 87dB/2.83V/m; my estimate was lower than that, at 85dB/2.83V/m. The speaker's impedance is specified as being "8 ohm compatible," with a minimum value of 4.2 ohms. My measurement is shown in fig.1—an 8 ohm rating would be fair, particularly given the generally moderate phase angle, but the minimum magnitude was 3.87 ohms between 190 and 200Hz.

@charles1dad Thanks for the additional information about Wharfedale. Given JA's report about those low impedance values, I'd pass on Wharfedale. This was something which steered me away from the Focal 936, and Tvad pointed it out to me. I could *hear* the suck out. Such impedance dips are not good for my amps really -- easily -- driving those speakers. I am determined to avoid them, and there are a variety of speakers which can satisfy that requirement.

Those following this thread closely might look here, an interesting brochure on Apertura speakers.
Note the comparison chart at the bottom. I heard the Edena (89db) and it was driven by a powerful solid state (Goldmund integrated -- Telos 7) and sounded magical. Not sure how they’d sound with tubes.

Take a look at the Adamante and Enigma MKII speakers. 93 and 95db sensitivity, MTM configuration with ribbon tweeter. https://apertura-audio.com/wordpresssetup/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Apertura_Brochure_A4L-12pp_FINAL-WEB.pdf

Your observations regarding Fyne's lesser models, if you are talking the regular 5xx series, are correct. I don't know how they screwed this up but the Fyne F501 speakers I spent some time with (fully broken in with several amplification choices, both tube and SS), were terrible; bright and edgy. A friend with good ears confirmed what I was hearing.

I've also spent time with the F303 speakers. An outstanding ~$1k speaker.

The F703 speakers I currently have are one of the best speakers I've ever heard.

I have not heard the TOTL F1 series speakers but expect that they would be excellent as they should be at those prices.

The F5xx series voicing completely baffles me.

BTW, Jim Smith of Get Better Sound replaced his Tannoy Canterbury speakers and $10k custom Duelund external crossovers with Fyne F703 speakers after auditioning them at a dealer. If you attend one of his RoomPlay Reference sessions, you'll hear why.

RoomPlay Reference

@vinylvalet Interesting idea, the RoomPlay session. I searched but cannot find where Jim Smith is located for these sessions. Can you reveal that?

Never heard this model of Paradigm but the Founder 120h would work with low watt tube amps only the mids and highs are driven by external amp the subwoofer is built in active. 

Jim Smith's listening studio is located in Cummings, GA just north of Atlanta.

While there, travel south to Macon and visit The Big House; Allman Brothers museum. As a rock/blues Hammond organ player, it was like going to Mecca.

Then on to Savanah, one of our favorite US cities.

My session with Jim was a game changer.

Great suggestions! I need to decide whether I am a dome or ribbon guy. 

The best dome I've ever heard is ATC's 3" soft dome midrange. There is nothing else quite like it.

Not really useful information for you as the bigger ATC passive models probably won't match up well with your amps.

Just saying...

Good luck with your search. You're on the right track.

@vinylvalet  Thanks. I have ATC high on my list but I realize I need to go down this path, first. That doesn't preclude other paths. I'm starting to see this hobby as composed of genres -- various combos of amps and speakers of different types, all with different types of synergies. It may be a search for the right combo or it may be a search for a combo for now. My hearing could change, my tastes could change, my wallet could change. I am already eyeing some Lyngdorf integrateds for the phase when (maybe) I downsize.

You're welcome. I agree with everything you're saying; my experience as well.

I wish everyone could audition a properly set up pair of active ATC SCM50 or 100ASLT speakers before making their final all important speaker/amplifier decision.

atc’s have their strengths but are a totally, and i mean totally, different kettle of fish to what the op is asking for re devore or audio note (and low powered sweetie pie ss se tube amps that could drive them)

@jjss49 Agree. That's a different path and I need to go down this one, first. But I can keep a list with a second heading that says, "Good Options, Act II."

@hilde45

I believe that you’ve chosen a good path to explore and don’t think you can go wrong with Devore, Audio Note or Fyne  Audio speakers. Another option that fits this  category is a Canadian speaker from Coherent Audio. Straightforward two way design with about 94-95 db sensitivity and easy to drive 8 ohm impedance load.

Another high quality option is Tonian Labs speakers located in California. They have 95-97 db sensitivity and very easy to drive 16 ohm impedance load with some of their models. There are many very good choices available to suit your objectives.

Charles

this is a great thread, so far.

@hilde45

Really depends on your priorities. Zu is basically a single driver speaker, and as such has the pros and cons of such a design. they are big sounding, toneful, and coherent. I do feel they are a little "raw" sounding and gruff with male vocals - think Johnny Cash more of a bass than a baritone. But if coherency is your top criteria than I’d hear them or the Cube Audio Nenuphar. I also don’t think classical is their strong suit. But I think Sean is a brilliant designer and would happily own Druid VIs again.

Devores are a more refined sounding Zu in many respects. They have an exceptional tweeter that is extended but doesn’t draw attention. Very dynamic as well, although not quite full bore as Zu. Both are have vibrant midranges that catch the essence of vocals. The Devore weakness (particularly the Os) is in the bass - he tunes his cabinets depending on frequency. You either love it or not. I loved the Gibbon Xs which had the best bass of the bunch, but were more modern sounding (soundstage, imaging, etc.) than Zu.

I leapt to Fyne really as an upgrade to Devore and joke they are Devore on steroids. the F1s are more coherent, bigger sounding (well my F1s at least) and have very very articulate, deep bass for a ported design. they may lose a bit of treble clarity to Devore but not by much. More coherent design than Devore being a 2-way as well. The Fyne is considerably more modern sounding than a Tannoy with far better bass - I actually like modern point source soundstaging and imaging which they do very well. But they do so with tremendous presence and life. The Fyne weakness is they aren’t SET friendly, despite the efficiency. Or at least not compared with Zu or Devore O. I’ve been down the SET path before, tried 16 different amps/topologies on Zu and don’t feel the need for the second harmonic explosion and unacceptable bass. Others feel the opposite which is cool. 20 watts push pull or 50 watts class A SS to me is the best of both worlds.

@keithr Excellent post. Thanks.

@keithr 
Thanks for your suggestions. Nothing I've heard about Zu makes me think they'd be better than some of the others, here. Classical is a *must* for me. My brother in law loves rock and so he's really headed for Zu. I would love to hear Zu but local options are limited.

I don't think I'm headed all the way down to SET. I am trying to land in the middle, with tube amps running either KT66 up to KT 150 and/or a Pass XA 25 (25 to 50w on peaks).

@charles1dad 

There are many very good choices available to suit your objectives.

Thank you for those recommendations. This thread is becoming *everything* I hope for in a forum. Not just recommendations of the usual brands — though hearing personal experiences is very valuable and of course I might actually be able to hear them — but other "under the radar" options. That's how I initially found Salk and Fritz's bookshelves. 

One thing I'm learning is that certain makers just aren't *oriented* toward one kind of amplification or another. Not just that their speakers' sensitivities are mostly under 90db, but that even if they have one or two speakers with greater sensitivity, they don't really design with tube amps in mind. That's ok, but it's not exactly easy to glean from the way they describe themselves.

@charles1dad I'm looking now at those Coherents. I see no reason they might not best Devores for the money. But re-selling is probably harder for all these lesser known brands, eh?

If u fancy a trip to Kansas City, w some notice, u r welcome to listen to my system.  0/93s with Lejonklou Boazu and DCs network bridge for a source.  Best of luck in ur search.

@mrmanisundaram Thank you! I might do that in the next year or so. I see there is an Audio Note dealer in town, too. Flights from Denver run as low as $27 each way. Small price to pay to hear two very top candidate speakers. 

Ok, just summing up what I've learned so far about this topic, there are a few different axes to navigate.

Sensitivity — while it's clear that there are speakers around 89-90 db and 100 db, what range between those, say, 93-96db (and considering ohms, and graphs about all this as well) is out there. Many options have been raised on this thread.

Re-sale — I'm really learning how many very good speaker companies there are out there that one would never hear of without a forum. That's a great thing to learn, but if this is not an endgame speaker, how hard or at what cost would re-sale be? A Devore would sell easily; Coherent audio or NSMT? Might take a hit. (Then again, one might not pay as much up front...)

Design types — ribbon, concentric, active woofer, open baffle, MTM, etc. Again, a variety of styles to navigate here, all to be  cross- referenced with top two factors.

And, yes, of course anything above has to be heard, tried in one's room with one's gear, music, etc. But the reason I single out the above axes of factors is that one needs to figure out which to spend the time trying.

Given the above, did I miss any major axis?

But re-selling is probably harder for all these lesser known brands, eh?

I thought about that before I bought my Bache Audio Tribeca’s. However, I compared the Tribeca’s side by side in my room with speakers that cost slightly more. The Bache’s not only sounded better but they stopped me from buying an even more expensive speaker. 

I heard the Living Voice in my home with an 300b SET amplifier, and they sounded great. Border Patrol (BorderPatrol.net) is the US representative. The only issue is the size of the room. My overall listening space is large, and the LV did not fill it as well as did the Zu Definition 4. The LV sound reminded me of AudioNote speakers that I heard at dealers or at shows. 

I’m in Denver and have some Zu Diety Weekend speakers so Zu but not one of the more expensive offerings.  Should give you the general flavor though.   I run them with Bottlehead 2a3 SET monos.   I’ve also had line magnetic 845 SET and Prima Luna push pull on them and think the current setup sounds right.  Anyways, drop me a message If you want to see the setup.  

Dirty Weekend. Auto correct.  

@hilde45 ,

Re-sale — I'm really learning how many very good speaker companies there are out there that one would never hear of without a forum. That's a great thing to learn, but if this is not an endgame speaker, how hard or at what cost would re-sale be? A Devore would sell easily; Coherent audio or NSMT? Might take a hit. (Then again, one might not pay as much up front...)

No doubt that recognized established and  larger brands  have an advantage when reselling into the used audio product marketplace. People will buy what they are familiar with and feel more secure with the purchase  as a result.  Tradeoff is generally you pay for this acknowledged higher profile/ prestige  upfront when purchasing new.

On the other hand if the highest priority is maximizing sound quality and value then the lesser know (But high quality) manufacturers become more viable and competitive.  So there is the always present inevitable balancing act.  I tend to take my time when shopping and researching buying options and I keep components for quite a long time.  Thus ultimate sonic performance and value are more pertinent for me than concern over ease of resale and used market value. 

Obviously this is strictly an individual case by case decision and a person has to know themselves and what matters most. But no doubt that there are many very good choices available. 

Charles 

Don't know how to DM so I will post that I am not too far away and have Tekton speakers you might like to listen too.

I have Tekton Electron (upgraded) driven by a Doge 10 KT88 tube amp (check Thomas & Stereo on Youtube) with Denafrips Pontus DAC.  I listen only to TIDAL through a an opticalRendu setup using MConnect.  

I'm in Loveland and you're welcome to visit anytime. Just DM if interested.

As usual - I am late to the party as I am a working stiff during the week and don't read ( get sidetracked) by these forums until Friday or the weekend .

Many great comments about speakers on this thread . Especially with a focus on efficient speakers.

My experience - the Monitor audio Platinum ( PL100ii) were very Dynamic and the tweeter was the best . The room was filled with the sound coming from it. The bass was strong . However with 40 tube watts I just could not get them to sound magical at all sound levels. My 3.5 ProAC's,  in a different room with 175 SS AMP sound much more musical over the entire spectrum . I posted a thread on AG for help and the few who had  helped me convinced me I would need a lot more power to bring them to life. ( you do have 60)  I also learned during the process I would only go to floor standers as the footprint as the same. 

I had originally replaced Sonus Faber - loved the Silk Dome and Devore gibbon super9's were my choice. John was super helpful and although I did not pull the trigger as a pair of Daedalus Muse Studio were available as a trade with another Agoner. Being  value( $$ oriented) I made the trade . I also purchased a Wellborne DRD300 mono's on a whim to swap in for a change of Pace. I am incredibly happy with the Daedalus and they are a piece of furniture/art , much like SF, Devore and others. I also listed to Coincident and they were highly efficient and also sounded incredible. Please take a  look and possibly listen to them .

For me ATC 's,  like ProAC and Monitor Audio Speakers need more power to sound their best at all times.

Do not overlook the preamp with efficient speakers . It ( higher quality Pre) has made a huge difference for me and the background noises associated with them . I hope you are using Tubes for your pre. 

I listen to Jazz, Jazz fusion. Classic Rock - not metal  and current rock/singer songwriters  90% of the time .  Opera easily puts me to sleep and a few of  my friends have pushed me to a little classical . But it is not my normal rotation. all of the highly efficient speakers mentioned in this thread which I have heard, auditioned or owned in this thread sounded wonderful with the appropriate associated equipment. I mention this because the Audio-Note display at  the recent CAF was playing hard - metal - rock in the room and I was so blown away with the sound. we were dancing in our chairs. My pre-conceived notion that efficient speakers don't really do it for me with heavy ROCK were erased. I didn't go out and buy my first Metallica album - but appreciated the sound and the music being played. 

I have not listened to Zu Speakers for any length  of time . 

I couldn't bring myself to buy Tektons,  not that they don't sound good but I am one that likes a good visual - when I relax and listen to music. I appreciate the craftmanship in the speakers made. when I was younger it was OK to have a wolf in sheep's clothing . As time has gone by the visual experience now matter more to me than they once did.

YMMV

Good look on the search and enjoy the journey. Listen with your ears first!  

My latest foray into ATS acoustic panels have also made a bid difference. 

@firberger Thanks for your weigh-in. Very helpful. I suspect my Salk SS6M's are in the category with the ProAc et al. Need more power.

I'm using tubes for my pre and just upped their caps with both Mundorf and VCAP Odam.

Daedalus is very nice --- hard to audition and, of course, quite huge. 

Audio Note is seriously on my list. 

I have lots of treatments (including ATS) but want to not use them if I can!

@gsm
Thanks. Adding "Living Voice" to my "Possible Endgame Speaker" list. (I am pulling things from this thread into a word document.)

@jawest and @chinook9-- Thanks! That might be fun. I’ll circle back if possible and DM you. (One does that by clicking on the username here in the thread and choosing "message user")

@charles1dad
Makes sense -- pay more up front to that safety valve.
Regarding lesser known, that’s basically been my path so far: Quicksilver, MHDT, Salks.
I’m with you on sonic performance and value. The reason I’m aware of it is not because I want or intend to gear flip, but my ears and brain/mind are undergoing a lot of education as I delve further into the hobby. I want to factor in the chance that I may learn more with time. Still, my plan for this next set of speakers is to really try a lot before buying and then (at least hope to) hang in for the longer haul.

Zu and Tekton are just over the mountains in SLC.

I have heard the Devore O/93s driven by a Line Magnetic 845 amplifier. Loved the presentation. 

One speaker I would love to hear is the Daedalus Muse. Seems to be a great fit for my room and electronics though at this time not so much so for my wallet.  A beautiful floor sstanding speaker that is not too imposing for a smaller room.  Would have to figure out how to pay for them.

Prana Fidelity is a local Denver manufacturer. Not as sensitive as others mentioned  but quite good.  I love my Bhava’s and the new Dhara is even better. Happy to have you over for a listen.  I’m in Centennial. 
 

Steve York. 
 

agree that buying from smaller, newer, less established speaker makers can offer great performance and value, if also a downside if one wants to resell later

other downside is that small shops started by a single person or a small group can decide to go out of business without warning, or discontinue their products in a change of direction for the company

one needs to also assess how one gets service or parts (e,g. blown tweeter after amp hookup mishap, for instance) - many smaller makers use commercially available drivers etc etc, so that can help in some case

for me, with such companies, i will generally try new ones at full price only on a risk free trial basis (or close to it)... whereas there is never such worry if getting a pair of well kept second hand harbeths, maggies, spendors, proacs, vandy's, klipsches there are always ready and willing buyers

also, the risks may be at a tolerable level if dealing with a pair of $1200 standmounts... lil riskier if one goes for $12 grand pair of 100 lb floorstanders

it is definitely a benefit to have the customer be in a local vicinity of the speaker maker... ability to demo, return, fix, help set up in customer home (if the maker is inclined) - so sometimes the risks of dealing with a small maker are mitigated by proximity

other thing to understand is for a smaller, up and coming maker, in this time of internet boards and forums, what is the nature of the customer following and ’buzz’ around a brand, if it considered ’hot stuff’ in the present period (take denafrips and dacs or spatials in ob speakers), trading in and out can be fairly easy with minimal financial penalty

other downside is that small shops started by a single person or a small group can decide to go out of business without warning, or discontinue their products in a change of direction for the company

Also, beware the small startup "flavor of the month, best thing ever, you must be stupid to not buy these too". The all-time saddest irony along these lines had to be the unfortunate naming of the former speaker company "Vapor Audio". Who knew?

@jjss49  Wise, as usual. Thanks!

@drugolf I've mapped it. 8+ hours but a lovely drive. Maybe.
@steveyork -- Thanks for the suggestion. That might be fun! Didn't know about Prana. They are close to me. Will try to shoot you a DM in the new year! 

Easy to drive 8 ohm impedance and 95 db sensitivity is a very desirable combination.

@charles1dad re Fyne- Can you point to the easy to drive 8 Ohm impedance? I can’t find any curve info except for the 501, which says 3 to 30 ohm with nominal 8. I’m thinking with a recommended amplifier minimum of 20 watts per channel, most are similar.

I’ve never seen much on the impedance curve with Tannoy either and know most use medium wattage, but many are happy with SET amps too. I can see the impedance "challenge" with very high sensitivity rating could make for a really fun dynamic and powerful/explosive experience with the recommended amp rating. With less power I wonder if one might wonder about unleashing the beast in the speaker?

Really cool looking designs and with Tannoy being a little lost in space these guys have found an attractive stage to perform on again. Is the high frequency driver in these two brands the same? Similar crossover at 1500? Tannoy has the tulip, Fyne has the isoflare. Kind of reminds me of that McDowell’s scene in Coming to America. "They have a sesame seed bun, our bun has no seeds..."

From JA/Stereophile

Although the Fyne F301's specified sensitivity is a high 89dB/2.83V/m, my estimated sensitivity was slightly lower, at 86.2dB(B)/2.83V/m. The Fyne F301's nominal impedance is specified as 8 ohms. While the impedance magnitude (fig.1, solid trace) remains above 8 ohms from the upper midrange through to 30kHz, it does drop below 8 ohms in the lower midrange, with a minimum value of 4.77 ohms at 200Hz. While the electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is high at some frequencies, the impedance magnitude is also high at those frequencies. The Fyne F301 will thus be a relatively easy load for the partnering amplifier.

So overall is considered an easy speaker to drive. 

Charles 

Well done, Charles1dad. The devil is in the details. I tried some Focal 936 towers because they listed at 8 ohms, 92 dB sensitivity. However, when one looks more closely:

"My estimate of the Focal’s voltage sensitivity was 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m—close to the specified 90dB, and usefully a little higher than average. The Aria 936 is specified as having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms and a minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms; my measurement (fig.1) confirmed the minimum value at 108Hz, but as the impedance stays below 4 ohms from the upper bass though the lower midrange, where music has high levels of energy, I would recommended using a amplifier rated into 4 ohms with this speaker." (JA in Stereophile)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-aria-936-loudspeaker-measurements

yes @hilde45

those who have tried and scrutinized focal towers learn before long that their published nominal impedance rating was definitely written by the marketing department and is largely b-s

@keithr

@vinylvalet

"The F5xx series voicing completely baffles me."

I am curious if your experience with Fyne F5xx series includes the F5xx SP series or you referring exclusively to voicing of F5xx (non SP versions) ?

It seems like F501SP and F502SP has all the elements from the F7xx series and a potential to be very good speakers for less $$.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with Fyne. It is a brand that I’ve been eyeing for a while, really like the looks and specs, but can’t afford more than F502SP.

Allen

I'm referring to the non-sp 5xx series only. I have not heard the 501SP or 502SP. A friend who has heard one of the SP models thought it sounded exactly as you describe; a less expensive 7xx series speaker. He was impressed.

@hilde45  "Daedalus is very nice --- hard to audition and, of course, quite huge. "

The stereo muse is much smaller than the other Daedalus  speakers and for @mesch  they can be had second hand for "reasonable pricing". They just do not come up very often . I have the stereo muse in a 12 x 14 x 8 room. 

there are some risks as @jjss49 wisely states.

these are worth a look IMO - I did listen to them , 

Coincident Speaker Technology Super Eclipse Loudspeakers For Sale - US Audio Mart

smaller footprint , less weight - 

Take a ride down to Santa Fe. There is a local speaker builder here. Viking Acoustics. David makes high efficiency speakers. My Tube Master's are 98db. They work great with my Allnic 300b amps. I've also had a pair of his Berlin's. Check out his website. You are also welcome to listen to my Tube Master's. I live in Santa Fe as well.

Thanks for those very interesting ideas!

@loki Thanks for the invite!

Hi Hilde!  Are these supplementing the Salks or replacing?  If supplementing, then maybe go a different sound than the salks.  The Spatials look very interesting to me personally.  The Klipsch forte heritages are really nice and listen up does carry them.  
 

i personally love ribbon tweeters, more than amt’s.  
 

Devore’s look really sweet as well…

@b_limo These would be coming into competition with the Salks. The Salks are clearly underpowered by (a) my QS Mono 60 tube amps and (b) my Pass XA 25. In addition, when I have powered them with more wattage — Van Alstine SET 400 and/or MiniGan5, they get the speed they need but sound shrill — and this is with a tube line stage and plenty of room treatments. I really think it's the Be tweeter, but in addition, it's the lack of power. Perhaps what I really need is a Pass XA 150, but I have decided that I really like the lower power amps with more sensitive speakers. I thought these were 90db but they're actually 87 and if you look at their graphs, they dip down to 83 and 85 db at crucial points in the spectrum. So, they need competition to work with my amps, which I'm keeping.

I think it’s important to discover the kind of presentation you are looking for. In my experience wide baffle speakers throw a very different presentation than narrow tower style speakers. Obviously horns give a different presentation than others with their own strengths and weaknesses. You will likely hear something you love and if it strikes you in the right way, the compromises will cease to exist. 
mud also recommend learning a little about impedance curves. These curves are much more important than a sensitivity rating if a speaker. Also realize that is no real standard in which the speaker industry measures- it’s expensive enough so many manufacturers don’t and methodologies amongst the professionals make it difficult to compare apples and apples.

Some great options above! Enjoy!