I have not heard any but I’m going to audition some in the near future. Can you provide any pointers or things I should be listening for? My current loudspeakers are von Schweikert db99se and they are definitely not point source. Thanks for your input.
Tuberist, your Schweikerts are most definitely point source loudspeakers.
The vast majority of speakers are point source. How a speaker radiates into the environment has to do with the speaker's size in relation to the frequencies it is responsible for. The other major category of loudspeaker is "line source." Line source speakers are taller than the wavelength of the lowest frequency they are responsible for. Examples are speakers like Magneplanars, Sound Labs, Pipe Dreams and those big systems you see at stadium concerts.
Line Source speakers radiate acoustic energy into the environment more efficiently. Volume levels drop off at the cube of the distance with point source speakers but only at the square of the distance with Line source speakers. This is why line source speakers are used at big concerts.
The way line source speakers image is distinctly different. Point source speakers create a small image even if they are huge speakers. It is like sitting at the back of the concert hall. Line source speakers create a large image, like sitting up front. Some people think it is larger than life.
Line source speakers also have other advantages. They do not radiate up or down which helps limit room interactions. It you make them dipoles they do not radiate to the sides either.
The big disadvantage of line source speakers is size. For them to operate as line sources full range they have to be floor to ceiling tall. Most line sources sold for residential use are not full range. They convert to point source in the bass.
There are only two dynamic driver line source speakers that I know of, Bob Carver's Ultimate Line Source and a kit that Parts Express sells or was selling. They may both be out of production now. The Near Field Pipe Dreams are long gone. To do this with good drivers is a very expensive project. The tweeters have to be stacked very close together. The magnet structures are usually too big to allow this.
Listen for the same things you'd prioritize on any speaker; natural tone, macro & micro dynamics, high and low freq extension, sibilance, integration of the drivers, soundstage, imaging...but most of all natural tone and dynamics. Cheers, Spencer
It is difficult to describe but I'd say you could look for a near seamless integration between bass and treble.
My Tannoy Dual Concentrics are far from perfect, but they do have a sense of integration that is remarkable for speakers of that size.
Many would say that the distance between the centre of the treble and bass units doesn't matter if you are listening at a sufficient distance, but I'm not so sure about that.
@tuberist, to reiterate - "
Tuberist, your Schweikerts are most definitely point source loudspeakers. " - @mijostyn's opening line ... do not underestimate the db99se as a well integrated Loudspeaker System! While Coincident Drivers are referenced as an ideal ' Point Source ' design - challenges in implementation abound. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by giving up 99 db Sensitivity. A suggestion ... try a different integrated ... like VAC or Octave for example.
Hello @david_ten, my Loudspeakers Image very well in terms of proportion and coincidently are a Coaxial / Dynamic Drivers system type. Note my above post should list Coaxial as same as Coincident - so as not to confuse an issue. Many different system types ( loudspeaker ) image well - like one might expect ... I think I would be more concerned with range of coverage ( audio band / low end ) as a point of interest.
I must’ve use the wrong terminology and thanks for everyone’s input. I guess I was talking about loudspeaker designs that use drivers that have the driver incorporate say the mid range and tweeter in one speaker like Zu or Tannoy. VS speakers I am using have many terrific characteristics but I am curious about this other kind of design where multiple drivers seem to be incorporated into one speaker cone
I'd say near perfect integration of the frequency spectrum. There is also an openness that may be due to that some of these speakers use little or no crossovers.
I look at my brothers MBL Omni directional speakers to sound and behave as a real instrument 360 degrees These are a great reference point source IMO and I too may buy a pair next year.
A point is by definition a dimensionless or infinitely small location in space. Dimensionless or infinitely small objects cannot possibly produce sound. (Some will no doubt now go chasing after these speakers with zero room interactions.) I mention this only to illustrate how easy it is to go off the rails talking tech. Jargon is a creature unto its own.
I never once in my life went to hear a point source, or a dipole, or even a horn, folded or otherwise. Never went to audition isobaric, line array, or any other speaker design approach. All I ever went to audition was speakers. Then evaluate whatever I hear in light of the room, music, associated equipment, and yes maybe even speaker design. Maybe. Sometimes.
In other words I never put the cart before the horse.
One speaker comes to mind when you say "point source", and that is Tannoy....I guess you can include KEF as well, however they are not the same design as tannoy. Tannoy was the first and is the best, since the origination of the dual concentric driver in and around I believe 1947.....it's what really put Tannoy speakers on the map.... https://www.tannoy.com/our-story.html
@tuberist, you are using the correct term ' Point Source ' as it relates to Audio / Sound Reproduction. Specifically Coaxial / Coincident Drivers are only a variation on a theme covering the Audio Spectrum with more than one ' limited range ' of a driver. KEF produces a range of different Coaxial Drivers for their products as an example of innovation from a manufacturer. The ideal and the exercise of Loud Speaker Design is to produce a coherent ' Sound Field ' using a set ( Mains / L / R ) of Loudspeaker Systems that result in a detailed Stereo Image. To answer the topic question directly ... the ' Sound ' would be very much like what you already have with the Von Schweikert Loudspeaker System. In other words you would have go a long way to improve the ' effect ' that you already have with db99se IMO. I did not want my response to sound flippant.
"
A point is by definition a dimensionless or infinitely small location in space. Dimensionless or infinitely small objects cannot possibly produce sound."
Well Miller, astronomers say time and the universe started with a big bang at a point source. Reckon we could have heard that alright.
The Tannoy Dual Concentric speaker system is stunning - period !. From near field listening at whisper quiet levels to room filling in row g of a auditorium.
The point source sound from the Tannoy DC design is used in recording studios and residential locations because it retains the accuracy of the spoken word regardless of listening distance. This is so important because most listening environments are not room/speaker friendly.
Finally take a Tannoy DC speaker system and listen to spoken word at WHISPER quiet level - listen for the articulation & coherence of the speaker, you are now listening to the speaker minus the cabinet and it sounds so correct, so undistorted. Now replicate that same test with the mass of line array speakers - by comparison they sound broken !.
A 15" Cobalt Dual Concentric Tannoy speaker system mounted in a 200-300 litre bass reflex cabinet will play all styles of music with ease without fatigue. The Joe D’Appolito 2 & 2.5 way speaker design have wife acceptance factor and look pretty with there narrow baffle profile which is currently so fashionable but imo sounds thin & broken compared to the Tannoy DC
hi there tuberist : ) - is what you meant by 'point source' loudspeakers those that do not have multiple drivers that require crossovers internally and good geometries for their drivers externally, such that the sound waves from each driver arrives to your hearing in correct phase and timing? I'm not sure if I have used the precise terminology, so do excuse me if not.
Point source speakers have multiple drivers the closest I know of is the Kef UniQ driver but it only covers the mid and high frequencies with 2 drivers. I've never heard a FULL range single driver.
I’ve not contributed to the forum much any more as I believe I have stereo speakers which give so much air, stage with such balanced treble, mid- range and bass that I need no more. Mk2 of much improved brilliance is being released soon. Shame I cannot afford these ones. Volume turns into solid sound, where each instrument still remains itself, clear and distinct. The stage is one that you can join and dance or play your instrument. Brilliance from Kyron Audio. 🇦🇺🇦🇺
I just bought Tannoy Turnberrys. I may not be much help here as my room is what I consider merely adequate for dedicated listening.
But what I noticed is that there is only a small noticeable difference. Like a subtle cohesiveness from top to bottom. I think a good design is a good design otherwise everyone would be using this concept.
The woofer cone is shaped like a horn rather than a typical woofer. I think this is a key difference from other designs. The tweeter uses this cone to create a nice, big presentation.
The woofer cone/horn is always in dynamic movement...this may be a compromise from typical static horn systems. But still, the concept sounds great. Very open sounding.
The bass is very good at low levels. This I didn't expect but was a pleasant surprise. Crossover is a low 1.3k hz but seamless from top to bottom.
Has a very modern sound for a retro looking speaker.
I have Tannoy Churchill's. They are stunning. Warm articulate and have an impressive soundstage. With that, I'd say the soundstage they are capable of sets them apart.
YOur post is very good mijostyn about point source and line source speakers...Thanks...
Save for one ESSENTIAL point....My point source speakers, relatively to the recording engineer choices behind each album for sure, COULD give me a seat not only in front directly of the musical stage but sometimes in the center of this stage with musicians around me...
Then the difference exist bertween the 2 types of speakers yes but you can acoustically and you must acoustically use the room acoustic settings to compensate and adapt FOR these 2 different types of speakers needs...
I will repeat something:
We never listen WITH and THROUGH an audio system but we listen WITH and THROUGH to the room specifically controlled and adapted to the chosen speakers linear or point-wise one...And when rightly done point wise or linear speakers even if being different can give an extraordinary experience... It is all up to the specifically acoustic treatment but active mechanical control we need to...
I think if you feel point wise speaker just like you just describe: back seat listening, your room acoustic is done wrong or your box speakers are very mediocre....Or the two....
The way line source speakers image is distinctly different. Point source speakers create a small image even if they are huge speakers. It is like sitting at the back of the concert hall. Line source speakers create a large image, like sitting up front. Some people think it is larger than life.
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